Why can't Brandon Beane get the defense right?

[BillsFan1988]

On 4/16/2021 at 12:53 AM, FireChans said:

Honestly, it's kind of shocking how much worse his defensive acquisitions have been compared to Sean. 

 

Who are our best defenders currently on the roster? 

 

Poyer

Hyde

Tre

Milano

Jerry

 

Do you notice something?  4 of those players were acquired by McD without the McBeane.  Jerry was obviously already here.

 

Compare it to the list of hacks that Beane has acquired. I'd type out all the bums and disappointments but it'd take too long.

 

All I know is if you eliminate the 2017 fellas, our defense would be the worst in the NFL.  If you eliminate Beane's JAG brigade, eh, we'd be okay.

 

Is it time for McD to make the picks again? Beane got the QB, let's thank him for his service and let's put the King of William and Mary back in the Kirk chair.

I seen Jim Minos on Buffalo Fanatics podcast on youtube he said 2017 was a total team effort with the final say with Mcd . Whaley and his staff scouted the players brought Mcd and his staff the players that fit there schemes. I'm pretty sure Beane operates the same way. 

[FireChans]

24 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

He didn't say Star is irreplaceable. He said the Bills were unable to replace him last year with the limited options they had, which is obviously true. They tried rotating Butler, Phillips, and Zimmer to fill that one spot, and the results were terrible. Phillips and Zimmer in particular regularly got blown off the ball. It was so bad that they had to play Oliver at 1-tech because despite being a natural 3-tech he was still better than any of the other players they tried to give the job to.

 

I see NC State DT Alim McNeill as a potential 3rd round option for the Bills. They need to find a developmental backup and long term replacement for Star so last year's problems don't resurface.

Yeah so maybe Beano could have had a serviceable 1T backup on the roster instead of 3 bad 3T’s? 
 

If Star rolls his ankle in preseason, will we roll out the excuses for a trash defense “there was just no way to replace him!!!!!!”

[BillsFan1988]

On 4/16/2021 at 1:34 AM, NewEra said:

McD, Frazier and Beane have equal responsibility regarding the success of our D.  It’s not just the GM.  Coaching is just as important. Some games our D has a great game plan.  Some games it’s terrible.  The D needs an upgrade at some defensive positions and it also needs better coaching at times

Also I hope we can tweak the scheme a little this yr . Mcd doesn't call alot of stunts or twists nor do we ever use any wide 9 formations on obvious passing downs. 

[TBBills]

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Yeah so maybe Beano could have had a serviceable 1T backup on the roster instead of 3 bad 3T’s? 
 

If Star rolls his ankle in preseason, will we roll out the excuses for a trash defense “there was just no way to replace him!!!!!!”

If only you were GM we would have won so many Super Bowls. You would have predicted the pandemic and won more than 13 games.

Edited April 18, 2021 by TBBills

[HappyDays]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Yeah so maybe Beano could have had a serviceable 1T backup on the roster instead of 3 bad 3T’s? 

 

No team has good backups at every position. Star's decision to opt out came at the very end of July. At that point they had no choice but to roll with the players they had. Like I said I expect them to draft someone this year, probably round 3 or later.

[BADOLBILZ]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

He didn't say Star is irreplaceable. He said the Bills were unable to replace him last year with the limited options they had, which is obviously true.

 

 

It's not true though.

 

The Bills 1 tech position was a defensive weakness in 2019 as well.    But they had a ridiculously easy schedule and great health.   Still, there was much lamentation about the loss of Harrison Phillips.......who was indeed off to an excellent start in 2019.   Lotulelei played the lowest % of snaps in his career and the Bills cut his pay after the season.  

 

The issues on defense last year were a MUCH harder schedule with much better QB's........injuries, especially to the LB corps...........and teams reacting effectively to the Bills increasingly predictable scheme.    

 

A lot of fans want to sum up the Bills shortcomings by the result of the AFCCG...........but the real indicator was the Colts game.     A tired, veteran QB was able to thoroughly dissect a predictable scheme.....his waning physical ability just couldn't cash in a number of golden opportunities to put touchdowns on the board.    And the inability of the Bills offense to push the ball downfield against the worst deep pass defense in the league turned what looked like a lopsided matchup into a struggle that only a huge individual effort from Allen saved them from losing.

[Logic]

41 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

I see NC State DT Alim McNeill as a potential 3rd round option for the Bills. They need to find a developmental backup and long term replacement for Star so last year's problems don't resurface.

As I understand it, Alim McNeil's college coach is close with Sean McDermott, too. He seems a good fit for the Bills physically and mentally. The third round seems like the sweet spot for a 1T, in any case.

[RobbRiddick]

Defense, much like soft drinks, is for p*ssies

 

[NewEra]

5 minutes ago, Logic said:

As I understand it, Alim McNeil's college coach is close with Sean McDermott, too. He seems a good fit for the Bills physically and mentally. The third round seems like the sweet spot for a 1T, in any case.

Alim seems to be the clear best of this 1T class.  While he may not be a “good pass rusher”, he’s probably the best 1T pass rusher in this draft and is capable of pushing the pocket.  We need a pocket collapsing 1T imo.  Not just a 1T that holds his ground.  
 

I don’t think he makes it to rd 3.  If we want him, we need to take him if he’s still there @61 imo.  I would prefer to take a 1T in the later rounds, but he could really help unlock Ed, which would make a huge difference in our D.  

[Logic]

24 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Alim seems to be the clear best of this 1T class.  While he may not be a “good pass rusher”, he’s probably the best 1T pass rusher in this draft and is capable of pushing the pocket.  We need a pocket collapsing 1T imo.  Not just a 1T that holds his ground.  
 

I don’t think he makes it to rd 3.  If we want him, we need to take him if he’s still there @61 imo.  I would prefer to take a 1T in the later rounds, but he could really help unlock Ed, which would make a huge difference in our D.  

I’m fine with using pick 61 on a DT.

 

People talk about finding difference makers/playmakers in the 1st two rounds.

Well, in my mind, we have three players already on the roster that need to make more plays, that need to take a step and fulfill their potential as playmakers: Oliver, Edmunds, and Epenesa. As such, drafting a facilitator who could help unlock and free up those players is just as good as adding another flashy playmaker.

 

I’m ESPECIALLY ok with taking a 1T at 61 if he also adds some pass rush value, as McNeil seems to.

[Weatherman]

On 4/15/2021 at 3:32 PM, Chandler#81 said:

Hey OP! Your parole officer is on line 2.

 

🤦‍♂️

So what you’re saying is you disagree with the OP in a condescending kind of way?  I’m not quite sure why you're always looking for reasons to take cheap shots at posters.  Mods should be the extinguisher not the gas IMHO.   
 

The OP has a valid point (although I slightly disagree with it).  We have a defensive SME HC and our major weakness this past year was on D.  Let’s hope that changes this year.  

Edited April 18, 2021 by Weatherman

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

No team has good backups at every position. Star's decision to opt out came at the very end of July. At that point they had no choice but to roll with the players they had. Like I said I expect them to draft someone this year, probably round 3 or later.

I mean that’s just not true. 

 

They had no choice? No way to acquire a 1T ANYWHERE?

 

1 hour ago, TBBills said:

If only you were GM we would have won so many Super Bowls. You would have predicted the pandemic and won more than 13 games.

I can guarantee I would have achieved at least as many Super Bowls as the Bills have won.

[HappyDays]

13 minutes ago, FireChans said:

They had no choice? No way to acquire a 1T ANYWHERE?

 

Right before training camp started, who exactly was still waiting to be signed? If you have an idea I'd love to hear it. All we could do is slap a band-aid on the position. Anyone we would have signed at that point would have been equivalent to the players we already had.

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Right before training camp started, who exactly was still waiting to be signed? If you have an idea I'd love to hear it. All we could do is slap a band-aid on the position. Anyone we would have signed at that point would have been equivalent to the players we already had.

Damon Harrison.

[MJS]

5 hours ago, FireChans said:

Damon Harrison.

His combined 9 tackles for Seattle really moved the needle for them. On and off the practice squad and then a healthy scratch week 16.

 

He is washed up.

[Thurman#1]

10 hours ago, FireChans said:

Of course a Beane Truther is also a “Star Loutotototototlelelele is irreplaceable” guy.

 

If by a "Beane truther," you mean a guy who sees - correctly - that Beane is doing an absolutely terrific job, then yeah, I'm a Beane truther. As frankly is anyone with half a functional brain.

 

If you mean that I think Lotulelei is literally irreplaceable, no, I certainly don't think that. Nor should anyone. But do I think Lotulelei is really good at the limited work they expect of him, as the Bills think, then yeah, I absolutely think that. Again, as should everyone. No, he'll never be a three-down guy, and no, he'll never rack up a ton of tackles either. He's not a particularly athletic guy. He's instead a powerhouse who can stop himself from being moved where people want to move him, even if there are two guys trying. That's rare. Not as rare as the unicorns who are both strong enough to be a space eater and also athletic enough to penetrate. But still rare to find guys with that level and the ability to eat blockers.

 

But they knew who he was when they signed him, having had him on their previous team for years. They wanted him to eat blocks and free up the LBs. He ate blocks and freed up the LBs. And it's difficult to find guys who can do that. There aren't that many of them out there. It's Parcells' Planet Theory. Not so many guys are that big and coordinated or strong enough to act as a space eater. Irreplaceable? Absolutely not. Hard to replace? Yes, of course. Virtually impossible to replace well as late in the year-long calendar as the optouts came, on July 28th, just before the start of camp? Yeah.

 

 

[Richard Noggin]

13 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

If you mean that I think Lotulelei is literally irreplaceable, no, I certainly don't think that. Nor should anyone. But do I think Lotulelei is really good at the limited work they expect of him, as the Bills think, then yeah, I absolutely think that. Again, as should everyone. No, he'll never be a three-down guy, and no, he'll never rack up a ton of tackles either. He's not a particularly athletic guy. He's instead a powerhouse who can stop himself from being moved where people want to move him, even if there are two guys trying. That's rare. Not as rare as the unicorns who are both strong enough to be a space eater and also athletic enough to penetrate. But still rare to find guys with that level and the ability to eat blockers.

 

But they knew who he was when they signed him, having had him on their previous team for years. They wanted him to eat blocks and free up the LBs. He ate blocks and freed up the LBs. And it's difficult to find guys who can do that. There aren't that many of them out there. It's Parcells' Planet Theory. Not so many guys are that big and coordinated or strong enough to act as a space eater. Irreplaceable? Absolutely not. Hard to replace? Yes, of course. Virtually impossible to replace well as late in the year-long calendar as the optouts came, on July 28th, just before the start of camp? Yeah.

 

 

 

I know you to be a deliberate, thoughtful poster. You claim Star Lotulelei does his limited job well. So my question is: how do we know that to be true? What evidence can you point to? 

 

I don't ask this to be obtuse or to passively suggest the opposite. I do sincerely wonder, however, how we can come to some kind of objective consensus on Star's performance as a Bill. Is it just watching the plays? Are there published, favorable grades on his play? I don't want to solely rely on McBeane's APPARENT judgment on his play. I want another source. Help me, Thurm. I know you value evidence and fair reporting. 

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's not true though.

 

The Bills 1 tech position was a defensive weakness in 2019 as well.    But they had a ridiculously easy schedule and great health.   Still, there was much lamentation about the loss of Harrison Phillips.......who was indeed off to an excellent start in 2019.   Lotulelei played the lowest % of snaps in his career and the Bills cut his pay after the season.  

 

The issues on defense last year were a MUCH harder schedule with much better QB's........injuries, especially to the LB corps...........and teams reacting effectively to the Bills increasingly predictable scheme.    

 

A lot of fans want to sum up the Bills shortcomings by the result of the AFCCG...........but the real indicator was the Colts game.     A tired, veteran QB was able to thoroughly dissect a predictable scheme.....his waning physical ability just couldn't cash in a number of golden opportunities to put touchdowns on the board.    And the inability of the Bills offense to push the ball downfield against the worst deep pass defense in the league turned what looked like a lopsided matchup into a struggle that only a huge individual effort from Allen saved them from losing.

 

 

Oh, nonsense.

 

Of course there was lamentation when Phillips was injured. We run a platoon system and the platoon guys was gone.

 

As for your argument that Lotulelei played lower snaps that year, yet more dumb crap. He played 47% of snaps in 2018. Then in the year you're talking about, 2019 he dropped ... all the way down to 46%. Holy mackerel!! He dropped 1%!!!! That's huge ... to a person who doesn't get it.

 

And they didn't cut his pay, they negotiated a deal where his pay on his $50M contract was dropped in his third year by $1.75M, and he received an extra year of guaranteed salary and a year beyond that of salary guaranteed against injury. Both sides came out of that with some benefits.

 

Sure, there were other issues on defense last year. But Lotulelei's absence was absolutely huge.

 

And great point that in the Colts game they in your opinion "dissected a predictable scheme." That dissection is what held a team averageing 28.2 points per game to 24 points? Only four teams last year held the Colts offense to less than 24 points. Those other 12 teams would have loved to have the Colts offense "dissect" their defense to a 24 point total.

 

I know I just felt awful on that last drive when the Colts got the ball down by three points with 2:30 left on the clock and the Bills D just crushed the life out of them, not even allowing them close to field goal range. I was jumping up and down and shouting, "Yeah, Colts offense, keep 'dissecting' them that way!!"

 

 

[machine gun kelly]

20 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

I know you to be a deliberate, thoughtful poster. You claim Star Lotulelei does his limited job well. So my question is: how do we know that to be true? What evidence can you point to? 

 

I don't ask this to be obtuse or to passively suggest the opposite. I do sincerely wonder, however, how we can come to some kind of objective consensus on Star's performance as a Bill. Is it just watching the plays? Are there published, favorable grades on his play? I don't want to solely rely on McBeane's APPARENT judgment on his play. I want another source. Help me, Thurm. I know you value evidence and fair reporting. 

Rich, first you’re response is very thoughtful as well.  The hard part for a 1 tech DT, is they are underappreciated who can eat up two guys so they don’t have some great stats.  He’s not Aaron Donald, nor are you or Thurm insinuating that point.  I’m not saying he’s the same guy, but Big Old Teddy Washington and Star avg. 2 sacks a year for their tenure.  The key if it helps is in the All 22.  When you watch closely when he was in games, he freed up Edmunds to do what he did best which is fly all over the field.  Oliver realized halfway through his first season he had more breathing room to penetrate as well as Jordan Phillips.  Phillips did nothing when he didn’t have that guy next to him in AZ.

 

You’re not alone bud in people thought he did nothing in 2019, but look at the front four the next year.  He’s not Reggie White ( I know a DE), but he fits what McD wants out of that position.  If we do draft a DT this year which is possible given the cap hit will be pretty much gone after 2021, expect a big space eating behemoth DT of one is there to carry on Star’s role.

 

I don’t think he is the second coming or anything, but McD’s defense depends on a selfless monster in the middle acting somewhat of that old 3-4 NT.  That’s Star.  If, and a big if so I’m not the Great Carnac the Magnificent (sorry, love throwing in the old Johnny Carson reference).  He should make Edmunds and Oliver, maybe Butler look better this year.  He’ll be invisible to us, but when you watch the 22, just look at how he manages the Center and a Guard.  He also makes it a little harder for opposing RB’s to get a cut back seam to bust one up the middle.  Maybe not perfect, but a little harder.

 

I do hope we find a young guy who is big enough, strong enough, and balanced enough to take on this role. As always Noggin, good question, and you’re right, Thurm knows his stuff.  Last disclaimer is just this is my humble opinion, but I have played and coached football.  When I was a LB 100 years ago, I was lucky to have at a lower level a buddy of mine who never received any glory, but he made my job so much easier nailing RB’s.  He clogged up the middle and the RB would have to take one more step making my job that much easier to hammer him.

 

Thanks as always Thurm.

 

For the youngins.

 

CARNAC THE MAGNIFICENT!  Sim sala Bim.

 

 

 

 

[K-9]

12 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

Rich, first you’re response is very thoughtful as well.  The hard part for a 1 tech DT, is they are underappreciated who can eat up two guys so they don’t have some great stats.  He’s not Aaron Donald, nor are you or Thurm insinuating that point.  I’m not saying he’s the same guy, but Big Old Teddy Washington and Star avg. 2 sacks a year for their tenure.  The key if it helps is in the All 22.  When you watch closely when he was in games, he freed up Edmunds to do what he did best which is fly all over the field.  Oliver realized halfway through his first season he had more breathing room to penetrate as well as Jordan Phillips.  Phillips did nothing when he didn’t have that guy next to him in AZ.

 

You’re not alone bud in people thought he did nothing in 2019, but look at the front four the next year.  He’s not Reggie White ( I know a DE), but he fits what McD wants out of that position.  If we do draft a DT this year which is possible given the cap hit will be pretty much gone after 2021, expect a big space eating behemoth DT of one is there to carry on Star’s role.

 

I don’t think he is the second coming or anything, but McD’s defense depends on a selfless monster in the middle acting somewhat of that old 3-4 NT.  That’s Star.  If, and a big if so I’m not the Great Carnac the Magnificent (sorry, love throwing in the old Johnny Carson reference).  He should make Edmunds and Oliver, maybe Butler look better this year.  He’ll be invisible to us, but when you watch the 22, just look at how he manages the Center and a Guard.  He also makes it a little harder for opposing RB’s to get a cut back seam to bust one up the middle.  Maybe not perfect, but a little harder.

 

I do hope we find a young guy who is big enough, strong enough, and balanced enough to take on this role. As always Noggin, good question, and you’re right, Thurm knows his stuff.  Last disclaimer is just this is my humble opinion, but I have played and coached football.  When I was a LB 100 years ago, I was lucky to have at a lower level a buddy of mine who never received any glory, but he made my job so much easier nailing RB’s.  He clogged up the middle and the RB would have to take one more step making my job that much easier to hammer him.

 

Thanks as always Thurm.

 

For the youngins.

 

CARNAC THE MAGNIFICENT!  Sim sala Bim.

 

 

 

 

Carnac never gets old. 
 

“May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits.”

[Richard Noggin]

@machine gun kelly so the quantifiable evidence you look to for Star's effectiveness is the success of the front-7 guys around him? Is that an accurate representation/translation of your claim? 

 

So then, are you implicitly suggesting we should see on film Edmunds getting canceled out in the wash more often last year than previously? Maybe his tackles would on average be recorded farther downfield in 2020 than in 2019 (that's gotta be tracked somewhere)? And maybe Oliver, for example, records fewer TFLs?

 

Is there statistical support for this kind of consequent dropoff?

[machine gun kelly]

Richard, somewhat as his role as I mentioned before is to play over the Center.  Last year when you look at the tape Guards were getting to the second level often enough and Edmunds had trouble handling them.  In 2019 Star would consistently eat up a C and G which allowed Edmunds to play more freely and was focused a great deal more on covering RB, TE, and underneath WR’s.  It’s one of the reasons he made it to the PB.

 

Listen or call into Sal this morning on WGR as he usually has a spot around the 7 am hour. EST.  He’s mentioned quite often how metrics for a 1 tech DT are difficult to quantify as they play different roles than say a 3 tech DT like Oliver or Jordan Phillips.  Star often takes on the double team allowing the other tackle to get to the QB for at least a hurry or pressure.

 

If I was sitting with you, we could review tape and show you what I mean.  The regular broadcast on TV doesn’t show everything.  A lot of the same comments used to be said about Ted Washington, but they were playing a 3-4 in the late 90’s.

 

Again, I’m not saying he’s the second coming of anyone.  What I am stating is McD’s defense adapted from the late Jimmy Johnson as that is who he learned under in Philly predicates having one large immovable DT and whether they play a 3-4 the DE, or OLB, and in the 4-3, the other DT and DE. can take on one guy vs. two.  He serves adequately that purpose and we had no one else to fill that role on last years roster once Star opted out.  I am glad he did so with his congenital heart condition.  I thought he made the right choice fir his family.

[thenorthremembers]

Because he knows defense doesnt score points.    The team with a good defense and bad offense lost to a Blake Bortles led Jacksonville team 10-3 in the Wild Card Round.   The team with the great offense and average defense made it to the AFC Championship game.  

 

They knew they had to build a good offense first. 

[Tcali]

On 4/15/2021 at 3:06 PM, mushypeaches said:

This is a ridiculous assertion.  We've had a top defense until last year when some injuries and opt-outs hurt a lot more than any draft or FA misses did.

 

And frankly, I'm much happier that they have a top offense and a middling defense vs having a top defense and a middling offense

 

It's a much stronger and sustainable brand of football.  

 

Would you prefer that we bring another GM in to make these decisions???  Again - ridiculous

we get one of the fat guys back this year. we should draft a fat guy at #30....its a matter of physics

[NewEra]

21 minutes ago, Tcali said:

we get one of the fat guys back this year. we should draft a fat guy at #30....its a matter of physics

There will definitely not be a fat guy worthy of #30.  

[Tcali]

53 minutes ago, NewEra said:

There will definitely not be a fat guy worthy of #30.  

damn...

[just1hugheser]

On 4/18/2021 at 1:57 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's not true though.

 

The Bills 1 tech position was a defensive weakness in 2019 as well.    But they had a ridiculously easy schedule and great health.   Still, there was much lamentation about the loss of Harrison Phillips.......who was indeed off to an excellent start in 2019.   Lotulelei played the lowest % of snaps in his career and the Bills cut his pay after the season.  

 

The issues on defense last year were a MUCH harder schedule with much better QB's........injuries, especially to the LB corps...........and teams reacting effectively to the Bills increasingly predictable scheme.    

 

A lot of fans want to sum up the Bills shortcomings by the result of the AFCCG...........but the real indicator was the Colts game.     A tired, veteran QB was able to thoroughly dissect a predictable scheme.....his waning physical ability just couldn't cash in a number of golden opportunities to put touchdowns on the board.    And the inability of the Bills offense to push the ball downfield against the worst deep pass defense in the league turned what looked like a lopsided matchup into a struggle that only a huge individual effort from Allen saved them from losing.

What he said was true, you just said the problem started earlier than he did and for me that means you are both right, you're just adding to his argument that 1t was a problem, some will say it was reasonable for the staff to be ok with the roster ie with star and phillips most would agree that star was nothing if not adequate and that phillips was showing a bit and seemingly consistently improving.  Star opting out and phillips getting injured and then rotating in everyone and the kitchen sink just didnt work.  I like Frazier, especially in the beginning with McD because he had HC exp., but he is somewhat inconsistent with his gameplan's and is much more conservative than I prefer my D coordinators but he has done a nice job overall and I'm of the opinion that bringing in someone else would just rock the boat and upset the chemistry but if our D takes another step back and our player development doesn't reap rewards(AJ, Ed, Edmunds, Phillips, Dane stick out to me) then McD and Beane will have to take a difficult look at the staff.

 

 

On 4/18/2021 at 2:14 PM, NewEra said:

Alim seems to be the clear best of this 1T class.  While he may not be a “good pass rusher”, he’s probably the best 1T pass rusher in this draft and is capable of pushing the pocket.  We need a pocket collapsing 1T imo.  Not just a 1T that holds his ground.  
 

I don’t think he makes it to rd 3.  If we want him, we need to take him if he’s still there @61 imo.  I would prefer to take a 1T in the later rounds, but he could really help unlock Ed, which would make a huge difference in our D.  

 

 

I like Alim's athleticism, I don't think he makes it to our 3rd round pick, I said in another thread we'd have to trade back into the late 2nd early 3rd to get him.  There are other options but he would be my preference in that range.

[just1hugheser]

Oh can someone tell me how McD brought in defensive players without Beane or vice versa, I know McD was hired first but pretty sure they have a close relationship and that they consult each other constantly.

[Don Otreply]

On 4/18/2021 at 11:02 PM, Richard Noggin said:

 

I know you to be a deliberate, thoughtful poster. You claim Star Lotulelei does his limited job well. So my question is: how do we know that to be true? What evidence can you point to? 

 

I don't ask this to be obtuse or to passively suggest the opposite. I do sincerely wonder, however, how we can come to some kind of objective consensus on Star's performance as a Bill. Is it just watching the plays? Are there published, favorable grades on his play? I don't want to solely rely on McBeane's APPARENT judgment on his play. I want another source. Help me, Thurm. I know you value evidence and fair reporting. 

It’s not just Beane, It’s Stars then DC & HC and now DC and HC that thought/thinks this to be the case, arrived at by seeing him play for years, that says one of two things, SM is bad at evaluating defensive players which he is not, or he isn’t bad at evaluating said players..., as well consider that the D has been better with Star, I think you’re looking for the unicorn conformation on this, just my way of looking at it...

[Mr. K]

On 4/15/2021 at 5:53 PM, FireChans said:

Honestly, it's kind of shocking how much worse his defensive acquisitions have been compared to Sean. 

 

Who are our best defenders currently on the roster? 

 

Poyer

Hyde

Tre

Milano

Jerry

 

Do you notice something?  4 of those players were acquired by McD without the McBeane.  Jerry was obviously already here.

 

Compare it to the list of hacks that Beane has acquired. I'd type out all the bums and disappointments but it'd take too long.

 

All I know is if you eliminate the 2017 fellas, our defense would be the worst in the NFL.  If you eliminate Beane's JAG brigade, eh, we'd be okay.

 

Is it time for McD to make the picks again? Beane got the QB, let's thank him for his service and let's put the King of William and Mary back in the Kirk chair.

Fire everyone. These guys are not doing the right thing with this franchise. Its almost brown bag time. Cant believe they built a team thats repeatedly achieved playoff births and advanced to the conference championship game 🤔 

[Thurman#1]

On 4/19/2021 at 12:02 PM, Richard Noggin said:

 

I know you to be a deliberate, thoughtful poster. You claim Star Lotulelei does his limited job well. So my question is: how do we know that to be true? What evidence can you point to? 

 

I don't ask this to be obtuse or to passively suggest the opposite. I do sincerely wonder, however, how we can come to some kind of objective consensus on Star's performance as a Bill. Is it just watching the plays? Are there published, favorable grades on his play? I don't want to solely rely on McBeane's APPARENT judgment on his play. I want another source. Help me, Thurm. I know you value evidence and fair reporting. 

 

 

Fair enough.

 

First, a quick look at Beane's opinion, which he's expressed again and again at various times:

 

“Our run defense wasn't always the greatest,” general manager Brandon Beane said after the season. “We lost a little bit of beef inside. We lost Jordan (Phillips) to free agency, but when that happened, we were thinking Star is coming back, and then Star opted out and I think we all saw – you know, I know he's not a 10-sack guy and things like that, but what he provides, not only the run game, but just the ability for our linebackers to roam free, I think took those guys a little time.”

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/bills-position-series-star-lotuleleis-return-creates-numbers-game-at-dt/article_599a55a8-7204-11eb-8e9c-139d55578556.html

 

In 2019 the interior of the defense began to show its true potential, Star was visibly more disruptive as the season progressed, he consistently controlled the line of scrimmage and stood ground against double teams and though he didn’t finish the plays, his presence in the backfield allowed other to reap the benefits. One of these players was second year LB Tremaine Edmunds who was far more impactful than the year prior. Watching the film, he needed to fend off fewer blockers, he appeared to be moving more cleanly in the box; able to utilize his freakish abilities to make plays at or behind the line of scrimmage. He doubled his tackle for a loss production, from 5 to 10 and was certainly more of a downhill force stopping plays before they began. Another recipient of Star’s improved play was rookie DT Ed Oliver, though he struggled with the adjustment early on and was limited in reps by the mid-season point Oliver began living up to his hype. Fans were treated to some flashes of what scouts saw in him during his time at Houston, he was explosive off the ball, he man handled lineman and was active in the backfield. There was a stretch, when things began to click for Oliver, where he recorded a sack in 4 of 6 consecutive games. When highlighting the impact of Star, it would be a disservice not to mention the emergence of Shaq Lawson who had his best year a pro and Jordan Phillips who had a monster year alongside Star, recording 9.5 sacks and earning himself a handsome payday with the Arizona Cardinals. It would also be worth mentioning that both Lawson and Phillips’ production dipped in their first seasons away from Star as well. With Star fulfilling his duties as a block stuffer, a bouncer for Edmunds and Oliver the defense improved from 16th overall to 3rd overall, finishing 10th against the run, fourth against the pass and second in points allowed. Perhaps the Star factor is real?

 

https://coldfrontreport.com/is-star-lotulelei-the-x-factor-for-the-bills-defensive-line/

 

 

"But Buffalo linebacker Lorenzo Alexander, who called Lotulelei “disruptive,” said that the former Panthers tackle was well worth it and is going to be a staple on the team for years to come.

 

“'Obviously he (doesn’t play) a sexy position, but he allows other people around him to make plays,' Alexander said. 'I’ve definitely been able to have a pretty good year this year. A lot of it is contributed to what he’s been able to do as far as keeping guys off me, allowing me to run free.'

 

“"In the pass rush, people can’t step up. On first or second down I know a couple of guys that have gotten sacks throughout the year just because Star has gotten that great push. He’s earned every bit of what he’s got with that five-year deal.'

 

"It’s hard to argue with the results that the Bills defense had this season, finishing the year ranked second in the NFL in total defense and No. 1 in pass defense.

 

"Bills defensive coordinator Leslie Frazier raved about Lotulelei’s first 16 games in Buffalo and explained that his unselfishness allows others to thrive and young players, like linebackers Tremaine Edmunds and Matt Milano, to develop.

 

“'He demands a double team which allows our linebackers to run free and make some of the tackles that people might think the nose tackle should be making,' Frazier said. 'That has been a plus for us, helping our linebackers to improve. But also to help our run defense. He’s done a good job of commanding attention from their interior, their center and their guards. It’s hard to block him one-one-one and that’s what we needed and he’s given us that.'

 

"Lotulelei diverted questions about his impact on the defense in 2018. Instead he shifted the focus to the entire defensive line because everyone bought into the vision of coach Sean McDermott."

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2019/01/bills-lorenzo-alexander-says-star-lotulelei-earned-every-bit-of-big-contract.html

 

 

"'When you look at the position he plays, it's the most unselfish position on the football field,' said McDermott. 'In particular the one-technique (defensive tackle), which is typically where he plays. A lot of the times he frees up the linebackers to make plays by absorbing and taking on double teams. I thought our run defense inside, which is where Star works, was mostly solid yesterday. Outside, we could have done some things better, but inside for the most part I think he played a solid game.'

 

"As noted by McDermott, Lotulelei's role is indeed more of as a player who occupies blockers and allows other players on the defense to excel. This is supported by his statistics on the Panthers: Lotulelei generally never had more than 26 combined tackles in a season (Excluding his rookie year where he had 42), and last season recorded only six solo tackles in 16 games started."

 

https://247sports.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/Article/Star-Lotulelei-no-tackles-Sean-McDermott-defends-122250809/

 

 

 

"The All-22 coaches film was the best tool to determine the impact Star truly had on the 2018 defense. His play can best be described as disciplined. It may not be sexy, but he is rarely out of position and less often pushed downfield. He was a steady presence in the backfield and owned the middle of the line. His victories at the point of attack generated several plays for a loss even though he did not make the tackle.

 

"No player on the defense was double teamed more often than Lotulelei. Despite double teams, he still would control the line of scrimmage. When he found himself single blocked on rushing plays, teams schemed to run away from him. It was difficult to find much fault in his game even when the Bills were gashed on the ground. For example, in Week 16 when the Patriots put 273 yards on the ground. A majority of their success came off the edge, not up the middle. When they did run up the middle, it was almost exclusively when he was double-teamed.

 

"On passing downs, he effectively pushed the pocket back and allow edge rushers to have an angle to the quarterback. There were times where he flushed the passer from the pocket but was unable to make a play in space. He could improve on shedding blocks as the ball carrier approached. Frequently after dominating upfront, a ball carrier would slip by before he could disengage from the lineman. His ability to always stay on his feet allowed him to trail plays. On which plays he showed excellent hustle, even though he is rarely fast enough to track down the ball carrier.

 

"Overall I came away extremely impressed with the tape. For a player with little statistical evidence to back it up, he was one of the most consistent defenders for Buffalo in 2018.

 

"It is hard to deny that Lotulelei had a significant impact on the Bills’ improved rush defense. However, it can be difficult to justify paying a situational player upwards of $10 million for each of the next four years. With the surplus of cap room, there is no way the Bills would move on from Lotulelei even if he is overpaid in the eyes of many.

 

"For years in Carolina, Luke Kuechly and Thomas Davis formed an incredible linebacker duo on a dominant defense. Much of their success in smothering rushing attacks was due to playing behind Star. If Edmunds and Milano can make the leap and perform at a similar level, it would go a long way in showing Bills faithful the real value Star provides. Lotulelei will likely never have the statistical production that will justify his massive contract, but the impact he has on his teammates at one the most unselfish positions in football should."

 

https://therunnersports.com/is-star-lotulelei-worth-his-contract/

 

 

 

 

There was a Buffalo News article that had a ton more mid-season in 2019, but I can't find it. And I don't have more time to look. This is certainly a pretty good summing up, though.

 

And we'll get the same old suspects here saying, "Well, what are they going to say, that he sucks?"

 

Which is just nonsense. The same folks see stuff that's negative and post it, but if it's positive it's got to be lies. It's pure confirmation bias.

 

The fact is, Beane and McDermott often say positive things about their players. But nto always. And no, they would never say that someone "sucks." But yeah, they say negative things sometimes as well. What did they say about the TEs at the end of season presser? Something about nobody worrying about stopping our TEs. They never feel that they are forced to say the kinds of positive things they say here.

 

And they'll very often when not happy with people withhold negative but also not say anything especially positive. Usually along the lines of "He's got some work to do." Asked if they were interested in retaining Josh Norman he never said they had an interest in keeping him.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

On 4/19/2021 at 10:44 PM, thenorthremembers said:

Because he knows defense doesnt score points.    The team with a good defense and bad offense lost to a Blake Bortles led Jacksonville team 10-3 in the Wild Card Round.   The team with the great offense and average defense made it to the AFC Championship game.  

 

They knew they had to build a good offense first. 

 

 

This wasn't an average defense. It was average or a bit below for the first six games and then quite good, top ten probably, as the season rolled on.

 

[thenorthremembers]

19 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

This wasn't an average defense. It was average or a bit below for the first six games and then quite good, top ten probably, as the season rolled on.

 

Slice it how you want but they were 14th is yards and 16th in points against.  They were the very definition of average when you look at the year as a whole.  Whether they progressed or not, the first six games count. 

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, just1hugheser said:

What he said was true, you just said the problem started earlier than he did and for me that means you are both right, you're just adding to his argument that 1t was a problem, some will say it was reasonable for the staff to be ok with the roster ie with star and phillips most would agree that star was nothing if not adequate and that phillips was showing a bit and seemingly consistently improving.  Star opting out and phillips getting injured and then rotating in everyone and the kitchen sink just didnt work.  I like Frazier, especially in the beginning with McD because he had HC exp., but he is somewhat inconsistent with his gameplan's and is much more conservative than I prefer my D coordinators but he has done a nice job overall and I'm of the opinion that bringing in someone else would just rock the boat and upset the chemistry but if our D takes another step back and our player development doesn't reap rewards(AJ, Ed, Edmunds, Phillips, Dane stick out to me) then McD and Beane will have to take a difficult look at the staff.

 

 

 

 

I like Alim's athleticism, I don't think he makes it to our 3rd round pick, I said in another thread we'd have to trade back into the late 2nd early 3rd to get him.  There are other options but he would be my preference in that range.

 

 

No, it doesn't advance his argument.  I think you are confused about what I was responding to.   I was answering @HappyDays claim that the Bills were unable to replace Star.    After a slow start where they tried to make all the DT's share the statistically unrewarding task of playing the 1T.........by midseason they had replaced him with effectively the same level of play or even slightly better.   Vernon Butler replicated Star's performance both statistically and stylistically.    Butler and Phillips drew their double teams at the line and the Bills front created plenty of clean looks for Edmunds which were still just too often misplayed by Edmunds.    Again.......2020 was a MUCH more difficult schedule.   They went from maybe their easiest schedule in over 40 years to one of the most difficult schedules in the league.  Everything was much easier in 2019 when the Bills were playing a host of unexplosive, one-dimensional offenses.

 

It would be good if they upgraded their 1T.   But it's not a position they need another $10M/yr player or first round pick to play.   I don't think the Bills even have real confidence that Star will be on the field this year so I do assume they will make a move during or after the draft to add another 1T.  Their intention was obviously to cut Star after the 2020 season,  hence the structuring of the contract when they forced the pay cut.     

[BADOLBILZ]

37 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Fair enough.

 

First, a quick look at Beane's opinion, which he's expressed again and again at various times:

 

“Our run defense wasn't always the greatest,” general manager Brandon Beane said after the season. “We lost a little bit of beef inside. We lost Jordan (Phillips) to free agency, but when that happened, we were thinking Star is coming back, and then Star opted out and I think we all saw – you know, I know he's not a 10-sack guy and things like that, but what he provides, not only the run game, but just the ability for our linebackers to roam free, I think took those guys a little time.”

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/bills-position-series-star-lotuleleis-return-creates-numbers-game-at-dt/article_599a55a8-7204-11eb-8e9c-139d55578556.html

 

In 2019 the interior of the defense began to show its true potential, Star was visibly more disruptive as the season progressed, he consistently controlled the line of scrimmage and stood ground against double teams and though he didn’t finish the plays, his presence in the backfield allowed other to reap the benefits. One of these players was second year LB Tremaine Edmunds who was far more impactful than the year prior. Watching the film, he needed to fend off fewer blockers, he appeared to be moving more cleanly in the box; able to utilize his freakish abilities to make plays at or behind the line of scrimmage. He doubled his tackle for a loss production, from 5 to 10 and was certainly more of a downhill force stopping plays before they began. Another recipient of Star’s improved play was rookie DT Ed Oliver, though he struggled with the adjustment early on and was limited in reps by the mid-season point Oliver began living up to his hype. Fans were treated to some flashes of what scouts saw in him during his time at Houston, he was explosive off the ball, he man handled lineman and was active in the backfield. There was a stretch, when things began to click for Oliver, where he recorded a sack in 4 of 6 consecutive games. When highlighting the impact of Star, it would be a disservice not to mention the emergence of Shaq Lawson who had his best year a pro and Jordan Phillips who had a monster year alongside Star, recording 9.5 sacks and earning himself a handsome payday with the Arizona Cardinals. It would also be worth mentioning that both Lawson and Phillips’ production dipped in their first seasons away from Star as well. With Star fulfilling his duties as a block stuffer, a bouncer for Edmunds and Oliver the defense improved from 16th overall to 3rd overall, finishing 10th against the run, fourth against the pass and second in points allowed. Perhaps the Star factor is real?

 

https://coldfrontreport.com/is-star-lotulelei-the-x-factor-for-the-bills-defensive-line/

 

 

"But Buffalo linebacker Lorenzo Alexander, who called Lotulelei “disruptive,” said that the former Panthers tackle was well worth it and is going to be a staple on the team for years to come.

 

“'Obviously he (doesn’t play) a sexy position, but he allows other people around him to make plays,' Alexander said. 'I’ve definitely been able to have a pretty good year this year. A lot of it is contributed to what he’s been able to do as far as keeping guys off me, allowing me to run free.'

 

“"In the pass rush, people can’t step up. On first or second down I know a couple of guys that have gotten sacks throughout the year just because Star has gotten that great push. He’s earned every bit of what he’s got with that five-year deal.'

 

"It’s hard to argue with the results that the Bills defense had this season, finishing the year ranked second in the NFL in total defense and No. 1 in pass defense.

 

"Bills defensive coordinator Leslie Frazier raved about Lotulelei’s first 16 games in Buffalo and explained that his unselfishness allows others to thrive and young players, like linebackers Tremaine Edmunds and Matt Milano, to develop.

 

“'He demands a double team which allows our linebackers to run free and make some of the tackles that people might think the nose tackle should be making,' Frazier said. 'That has been a plus for us, helping our linebackers to improve. But also to help our run defense. He’s done a good job of commanding attention from their interior, their center and their guards. It’s hard to block him one-one-one and that’s what we needed and he’s given us that.'

 

"Lotulelei diverted questions about his impact on the defense in 2018. Instead he shifted the focus to the entire defensive line because everyone bought into the vision of coach Sean McDermott."

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2019/01/bills-lorenzo-alexander-says-star-lotulelei-earned-every-bit-of-big-contract.html

 

 

"'When you look at the position he plays, it's the most unselfish position on the football field,' said McDermott. 'In particular the one-technique (defensive tackle), which is typically where he plays. A lot of the times he frees up the linebackers to make plays by absorbing and taking on double teams. I thought our run defense inside, which is where Star works, was mostly solid yesterday. Outside, we could have done some things better, but inside for the most part I think he played a solid game.'

 

"As noted by McDermott, Lotulelei's role is indeed more of as a player who occupies blockers and allows other players on the defense to excel. This is supported by his statistics on the Panthers: Lotulelei generally never had more than 26 combined tackles in a season (Excluding his rookie year where he had 42), and last season recorded only six solo tackles in 16 games started."

 

https://247sports.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/Article/Star-Lotulelei-no-tackles-Sean-McDermott-defends-122250809/

 

 

 

"The All-22 coaches film was the best tool to determine the impact Star truly had on the 2018 defense. His play can best be described as disciplined. It may not be sexy, but he is rarely out of position and less often pushed downfield. He was a steady presence in the backfield and owned the middle of the line. His victories at the point of attack generated several plays for a loss even though he did not make the tackle.

 

"No player on the defense was double teamed more often than Lotulelei. Despite double teams, he still would control the line of scrimmage. When he found himself single blocked on rushing plays, teams schemed to run away from him. It was difficult to find much fault in his game even when the Bills were gashed on the ground. For example, in Week 16 when the Patriots put 273 yards on the ground. A majority of their success came off the edge, not up the middle. When they did run up the middle, it was almost exclusively when he was double-teamed.

 

"On passing downs, he effectively pushed the pocket back and allow edge rushers to have an angle to the quarterback. There were times where he flushed the passer from the pocket but was unable to make a play in space. He could improve on shedding blocks as the ball carrier approached. Frequently after dominating upfront, a ball carrier would slip by before he could disengage from the lineman. His ability to always stay on his feet allowed him to trail plays. On which plays he showed excellent hustle, even though he is rarely fast enough to track down the ball carrier.

 

"Overall I came away extremely impressed with the tape. For a player with little statistical evidence to back it up, he was one of the most consistent defenders for Buffalo in 2018.

 

"It is hard to deny that Lotulelei had a significant impact on the Bills’ improved rush defense. However, it can be difficult to justify paying a situational player upwards of $10 million for each of the next four years. With the surplus of cap room, there is no way the Bills would move on from Lotulelei even if he is overpaid in the eyes of many.

 

"For years in Carolina, Luke Kuechly and Thomas Davis formed an incredible linebacker duo on a dominant defense. Much of their success in smothering rushing attacks was due to playing behind Star. If Edmunds and Milano can make the leap and perform at a similar level, it would go a long way in showing Bills faithful the real value Star provides. Lotulelei will likely never have the statistical production that will justify his massive contract, but the impact he has on his teammates at one the most unselfish positions in football should."

 

https://therunnersports.com/is-star-lotulelei-worth-his-contract/

 

 

 

 

There was a Buffalo News article that had a ton more mid-season in 2019, but I can't find it. And I don't have more time to look. This is certainly a pretty good summing up, though.

 

And we'll get the same old suspects here saying, "Well, what are they going to say, that he sucks?"

 

Which is just nonsense. The same folks see stuff that's negative and post it, but if it's positive it's got to be lies. It's pure confirmation bias.

 

The fact is, Beane and McDermott often say positive things about their players. But nto always. And no, they would never say that someone "sucks." But yeah, they say negative things sometimes as well. What did they say about the TEs at the end of season presser? Something about nobody worrying about stopping our TEs. They never feel that they are forced to say the kinds of positive things they say here.

 

And they'll very often when not happy with people withhold negative but also not say anything especially positive. Usually along the lines of "He's got some work to do." Asked if they were interested in retaining Josh Norman he never said they had an interest in keeping him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They cut Star's pay after the 2019 season and structured the deal so they could release him after the 2020 season.

 

Actions speak louder than words. 

 

You can field fluffy quotes about his play all you want............I believe Lorenzo Alexander once said that Tremaine Edmunds was going to be a HOF'er.

[Alphadawg7]

I don’t know what’s worse:

 

The OP actual post

 

Or all the people here who fed this troll 9 pages of dinner

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I don’t know what’s worse:

 

The OP actual post

 

Or all the people here who fed this troll 9 pages of dinner

Cmon man, this was probably my best work.

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

 

They cut Star's pay after the 2019 season and structured the deal so they could release him after the 2020 season.

 

Actions speak louder than words. 

 

You can field fluffy quotes about his play all you want............I believe Lorenzo Alexander once said that Tremaine Edmunds was going to be a HOF'er.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Star opted out because he knew 2020 was his last season with us and he figured he could pocket the extra 500k

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if Star opted out because he knew 2020 was his last season with us and he figured he could pocket the extra 500k

 

 

I do believe he opted out because, not yet knowing the consequences of doing so,  Beane guaranteed his base salary to get him to take the pay cut. 

 

If his base salary wasn't guaranteed and he opted out,   Beane could have cut him after the season and Star never sees that money.     Like he did EJ Gaines.

 

 

 

[Thurman#1]

On 4/20/2021 at 11:49 PM, thenorthremembers said:

Slice it how you want but they were 14th is yards and 16th in points against.  They were the very definition of average when you look at the year as a whole.  Whether they progressed or not, the first six games count. 

 

 

They do count. But what they show is that they were bad at the beginning. Then they improved a lot.

 

 

On 4/21/2021 at 12:11 AM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

 

They cut Star's pay after the 2019 season and structured the deal so they could release him after the 2020 season.

 

Actions speak louder than words. 

 

You can field fluffy quotes about his play all you want............I believe Lorenzo Alexander once said that Tremaine Edmunds was going to be a HOF'er.

 

 

Actions do indeed speak louder than words. 

 

They didn't "cut" his salary. They negotiated an agreement such that he was paid by $1.75M less in one year out of a $50M contract. 

 

And the Bills also guaranteed his contract for another year and then guaranteed his contract against injury for a second year. Kid yourself if you want, but both sides got a lot out of that deal.

 

They could very easily keep Star till the end of that contract assuming he doesn't regress.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Thurman#1

[papazoid]

each year there is only one team satisfied they got it right