What constitutes an ineligible man downfield penalty?

[Coach55]

What warrants an ineligible man downfield penalty?  Below is a screenshot on a 3rd and 12 on their final drive.  3 KC offensive lineman are down field including one who is 6 yards past the line of scrimmage.  I am not making excuses for Buffalo as the Defense has been non-existent, but isn't this a clear rule violation?

[1ManRaid]

That O-lineman was very much "close enough" to being within 5 yards.  His butt was basically overhanging the 5 yard marker, and if they are going by illegal forward pass rules then only a part of his body still has to be on or behind the line.

 

Splitting hairs here.

 

*edit* For some reason I was remembering illegal contact which is 5 yards downfield.  Yeah that's a foul and another classic screw job.  You learn every day.

Edited October 23, 2020 by 1ManRaid

[KD in CA]

The penalty is for an illegal man downfield, not illegal men downfield, so if you have 3 of them, it's ok.

[PetermansRedemption]

3 minutes ago, 1ManRaid said:

That O-lineman was very much "close enough" to being within 5 yards.  His butt was basically overhanging the 5 yard marker, and if they are going by illegal forward pass rules then only a part of his body still has to be on or behind the line.

 

Splitting hairs here.

Is the rule really 5 yards? I’m looking it up now and will edit back, but I feel like that’s quite a bit of leeway to give a professional NFL player. Little league where they don’t know the rules, fine.

[ExiledInIllinois]

5 yards. 

[thebandit27]

This penalty is the one that drives me batty every Sunday.

 

It happens all the time and doesn’t get called. And then, occasionally, an official will decide “yeah, you know what? I’m feelin’ it this time.” and throws a flag. I’d say it gets called 1 out of every 20 times I see it.

[ExiledInIllinois]

If the receiver was between the 38 & 41... They may have called it, since OLineman was in position to make a block. 

 

Anyway,  it's really close.  Like uptrend poster said, his butt's at 5 yards. 

Just now, thebandit27 said:

This penalty is the one that drives me batty every Sunday.

 

It happens all the time and doesn’t get called. And then, occasionally, an official will decide “yeah, you know what? I’m feelin’ it this time.” and throws a flag. I’d say it gets called 1 out of every 20 times I see it.

Judgement call.  Does it affect the play?

[PetermansRedemption]

Found the rule. Section 3 of the NFL rule book. Five yards isn’t specifically mentioned. But there is obvious leeway given to the judgement of the covering official. 
 

Item 2. Illegally Downfield. An ineligible offensive player is illegally downfield if:
(a) he moves more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage without contacting an opponent
(b) after losing contact with an opponent within one yard of the line of scrimmage, he advances more than one yard beyond the
line of scrimmage
(c) after losing contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he continues to move toward his
opponent’s goal line.

[thebandit27]

1 minute ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

If the receiver was between the 38 & 41... They may have called it, since OLineman was in position to make a block. 

 

Anyway,  it's really close.  Like uptrend poster said, his butt's at 5 yards. 

Judgement call.  Does it affect the play?

On nearly every screen pass? Absolutely.
 

The times it gets called? Usually not.

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, 1ManRaid said:

That O-lineman was very much "close enough" to being within 5 yards.  His butt was basically overhanging the 5 yard marker, and if they are going by illegal forward pass rules then only a part of his body still has to be on or behind the line.

 

Splitting hairs here.

 

*edit* For some reason I was remembering illegal contact which is 5 yards downfield.  Yeah that's a foul and another classic screw job.  You learn every day.

completely wrong

 

Item 2. Illegally Downfield. An ineligible offensive player is illegally downfield if:

1. he moves more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage without contacting an opponent
2. after losing contact with an opponent within one yard of the line of scrimmage, he advances more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage
3. after losing contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he continues to move toward his opponent’s goal line.

[Buffalo716]

The NFL's rule book says over 1 yard downfield is a penalty

 

The refs obviously give a little leeway

[SirAndrew]

A lesser QB does. Mahomes is the face of the NFL, he gets Brady rules from now on. 

11 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

The NFL's rule book says over 1 yard downfield is a penalty

 

The refs obviously give a little leeway

Yep, and more leeway is given to the best teams/QB’s. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

I'd have to believe that is one of the more difficult rules for officials to monitor as can imagine the refs are going to be following the ball at that point, in particular when the QB sprints out.

[Kwai San]

Just now, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

I'd have to believe that is one of the more difficult rules for officials to monitor as can imagine the refs are going to be following the ball at that point, in particular when the QB sprints out.

 

Each official has a job.  Not all of them are watching the ball and ball carrier.  Some get caught up but these guys have been around the block before.  My take is that the game is SO big and fast at that level that yeah calls like this would need to be blatant or they happened to be focused on it due to the coaches on the sideline are chirping about it.  If you ever officiated a game you would be AMAZED at how much certain coaches will constantly rag you about this that and the other.  Some teams have JAG who does this and only this.

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

I'd have to believe that is one of the more difficult rules for officials to monitor as can imagine the refs are going to be following the ball at that point, in particular when the QB sprints out.

Line judge and down judge are responsible for LOS stuff 

[ExiledInIllinois]

42 minutes ago, PetermansRedemption said:

Found the rule. Section 3 of the NFL rule book. Five yards isn’t specifically mentioned. But there is obvious leeway given to the judgement of the covering official. 
 

Item 2. Illegally Downfield. An ineligible offensive player is illegally downfield if:
(a) he moves more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage without contacting an opponent
(b) after losing contact with an opponent within one yard of the line of scrimmage, he advances more than one yard beyond the
line of scrimmage
(c) after losing contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he continues to move toward his
opponent’s goal line.

I assume from the ScreenShot there was contact in that zone shown.  Mahomes was swinging out.

There's a Bills pass rusher for every lineman in shot, and close.

 

Only thing... Where's the right tackle?  Just out of the shot to left??

[nucci]

whatever the rule , it's a dumb one...along with the illegal formation penalty where the end is uncovered....NFL needs to look at this along with D jumping over the line but getting back before the snap but OL points and it's a penalty....these bother me. Thanks for listening

[whatdrought]

I think that rule pretty much only applies if a player does, or has potential to impact the play downfield. Technically it may be a violation, but they don’t care unless it’s gonna matter, which is how I think it should be. This would be a ticky tack call and no way to win a game. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, nucci said:

whatever the rule , it's a dumb one...along with the illegal formation penalty where the end is uncovered....NFL needs to look at this along with D jumping over the line but getting back before the snap but OL points and it's a penalty....these bother me. Thanks for listening

 

Yeah - if they jump Offside, you shouldn't be allowed to move.  You know the snap count.  If they touch you? Encroachment.  If you snap it? Offside - free play.  Thats it.

[JimBob2232]

I dont know what is real here - but from what i read on this thread - the key is "after losing contact" he cant go more than one yard.  If he drove a guy 10 yards down the field - then lost contact, he can stay there all day and be legit - per what i read here.  He just cant go more than one more yard.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

The NFL's rule book says over 1 yard downfield is a penalty

 

The refs obviously give a little leeway

 

For definitions of "a little leeway" equivalent to the stock saying of Sgt Schultz in "Hogan's Heroes"

 

Then once in a while, just to be ornery and exert their influence on the game, the refs call it.

[Buffalo716]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

For definitions of "a little leeway" equivalent to the stock saying of Sgt Schultz in "Hogan's Heroes"

 

Then once in a while, just to be ornery and exert their influence on the game, the refs call it.

The chiefs and Andy Reid have been called out on it before

 

They seem to always have lineman 3 yards downfield , and it never gets called

 

And Andy Reid just says we coach them to block laterally. But the film says otherwise

 

 

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

The NFL's rule book says over 1 yard downfield is a penalty

 

The refs obviously give a little leeway

 

 

 

Yes, this.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/chiefs/news/are-the-chiefs-blocking-downfield-illegally-on-rpo-plays-andy-reid-says-no-uN91b01mVUi1ZIqlF3p2rg

 

"While the NFL rules state lineman can move no more than 1 yard downfield before the pass, officials often permit some leeway, usually no more than 3 to 5 yards downfield."

Edited October 23, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

24 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

Yes, this.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/chiefs/news/are-the-chiefs-blocking-downfield-illegally-on-rpo-plays-andy-reid-says-no-uN91b01mVUi1ZIqlF3p2rg

 

"While the NFL rules state lineman can move no more than 1 yard downfield before the pass, officials often permit some leeway, usually no more than 3 to 5 yards downfield."

 

At some point you have to question it though.  They run more RPOs than anyone - and their linemen are constantly upfield.  Which will inevitably open up space for mahomes to manuever, but also creates further defensive confusion.  Why is the lineman able to run 5 yards up field to block the backer, when its a pass play?  

[pennstate10]

1 hour ago, nucci said:

whatever the rule , it's a dumb one...along with the illegal formation penalty where the end is uncovered....NFL needs to look at this along with D jumping over the line but getting back before the snap but OL points and it's a penalty....these bother me. Thanks for listening

No, it's a good rule and it should be called.

This rule is at the heart of the RPO. 

If the lineman are more than 1 yd downfield, the LB assumes it cannot be a pass, and plays the run. 

I don't know if this was an RPO, nut those are the plays where this penalty is most often called

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

2 hours ago, whatdrought said:

I think that rule pretty much only applies if a player does, or has potential to impact the play downfield. Technically it may be a violation, but they don’t care unless it’s gonna matter, which is how I think it should be. This would be a ticky tack call and no way to win a game. 

 

 

[whatdrought]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

For definitions of "a little leeway" equivalent to the stock saying of Sgt Schultz in "Hogan's Heroes"

 

Then once in a while, just to be ornery and exert their influence on the game, the refs call it.

 

One of the greatest characters in television history. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, pennstate10 said:

No, it's a good rule and it should be called.

This rule is at the heart of the RPO. 

If the lineman are more than 1 yd downfield, the LB assumes it cannot be a pass, and plays the run. 

I don't know if this was an RPO, nut those are the plays where this penalty is most often called

 

Like half their shotgun runs are RPOs.  Thats why in that game edmunds is constantly late - he's playing the pass lane. 

[PetermansRedemption]

3 hours ago, nucci said:

whatever the rule , it's a dumb one...along with the illegal formation penalty where the end is uncovered....NFL needs to look at this along with D jumping over the line but getting back before the snap but OL points and it's a penalty....these bother me. Thanks for listening

I agree with both of these meriting revision. The standing up like the defensive lineman somehow shook you. If you legit react, fine. But standing up slowly and pointing isn’t a reflex reaction. 
 

[Big Turk]

It's a penalty for an offensive lineman being across the LOS at the time a pass is thrown by the QB. Typically this happens on busted screen plays that rely on timing to set up blocks and when the timing is thrown off, the linemen get past the LOS and are then called for a penalty.

5 hours ago, Coach55 said:

What warrants an ineligible man downfield penalty?  Below is a screenshot on a 3rd and 12 on their final drive.  3 KC offensive lineman are down field including one who is 6 yards past the line of scrimmage.  I am not making excuses for Buffalo as the Defense has been non-existent, but isn't this a clear rule violation?

 

That is about as egregious as you can get without having a penalty thrown.  Yes this should have been a penalty.

Edited October 23, 2020 by matter2003

[MrSarcasm]

This is the new 'traveling or 'double dribble' the NBA and basketball in general has.

 

Once rules become nonenforced or only sometimes enforced the game becomes less about the players and team and more about characters and story... WWE

[Big Turk]

4 minutes ago, MrSarcasm said:

This is the new 'traveling or 'double dribble' the NBA and basketball in general has.

 

Once rules become nonenforced or only sometimes enforced the game becomes less about the players and team and more about characters and story... WWE

 

Then at some point the NFL says "OK guys, we have let this slide long enough" and then it becomes a point of emphasis and starts getting called all the time....like holding did a few years ago.

[MrSarcasm]

19 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

 

Then at some point the NFL says "OK guys, we have let this slide long enough" and then it becomes a point of emphasis and starts getting called all the time....like holding did a few years ago.

Bingo, but eventually the audience will dwindle enough to where it won't even matter. 

 

I'm getting there myself.

[Billl]

5 hours ago, Coach55 said:

What warrants an ineligible man downfield penalty?  Below is a screenshot on a 3rd and 12 on their final drive.  3 KC offensive lineman are down field including one who is 6 yards past the line of scrimmage.  I am not making excuses for Buffalo as the Defense has been non-existent, but isn't this a clear rule violation?

There are 4 O linemen and 4 D linemen who all peeled off and chased the QB.  Perfectly legal play.  I guess some people watch the NFL and walk away thinking that the game would be more entertaining if every other play resulted in a penalty over an obscure rule.  Those same people would love to see 45 travels and 15 three seconds in the lane violations called per game in basketball.

1 minute ago, MrSarcasm said:

Bingo, but eventually the audience will dwindle enough to where it won't even matter. 

 

I'm getting there myself.

15 million people just watched two teams with one win each play on a Thursday night while the Presidential debates we’re taking place.  Audiences are doing anything but dwindling.  The only thing that kept Buffalo in the game was the officiating, and you’re still bitching.

[thebandit27]

7 minutes ago, Billl said:

There are 4 O linemen and 4 D linemen who all peeled off and chased the QB.  Perfectly legal play.  I guess some people watch the NFL and walk away thinking that the game would be more entertaining if every other play resulted in a penalty over an obscure rule.  Those same people would love to see 45 travels and 15 three seconds in the lane violations called per game in basketball.

15 million people just watched two teams with one win each play on a Thursday night while the Presidential debates we’re taking place.  Audiences are doing anything but dwindling.  The only thing that kept Buffalo in the game was the officiating, and you’re still bitching.

There are bad takes, and then there’s this.

 

Yes, it’s a penalty. To say “perfectly legal play” is ignorance of the highest order. Do the officials let this particular penalty go uncalled all the time? Yes. Does that make it “perfectly legal”? No. Period.

 

And no, the reason Buffalo was in the game was because the LadyBeaters didn’t score enough points to put them out of it, and got lucky with Bass missing a FG and CEH fumbling 1/4 second after his knee went down.

 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

5 hours ago, whatdrought said:

I think that rule pretty much only applies if a player does, or has potential to impact the play downfield. Technically it may be a violation, but they don’t care unless it’s gonna matter, which is how I think it should be. This would be a ticky tack call and no way to win a game. 

Exactly. In the scenario above, those o-linemen were well outside of the play standing around. I think they could call it, but probably don’t in that situation. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

5 hours ago, Kwai San said:

 

Each official has a job.  Not all of them are watching the ball and ball carrier.  Some get caught up but these guys have been around the block before.  My take is that the game is SO big and fast at that level that yeah calls like this would need to be blatant or they happened to be focused on it due to the coaches on the sideline are chirping about it.  If you ever officiated a game you would be AMAZED at how much certain coaches will constantly rag you about this that and the other.  Some teams have JAG who does this and only this.

 

5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Line judge and down judge are responsible for LOS stuff 

 

 

Yes understand it's specific officials job to watch for it, but my point was it's easy to get somewhat "distracted" and get caught up in the play rather than their specific task. 

 

I too have officiated sports, not football and certainly not at the NFL level, but know how easy it is to follow the ball instead of your specific task.    While I'm certain at this level they are much more disciplined, it also likely takes much less to get distracted too with everything going on as you pointed out.

[whatdrought]

30 minutes ago, Billl said:

There are 4 O linemen and 4 D linemen who all peeled off and chased the QB.  Perfectly legal play.  I guess some people watch the NFL and walk away thinking that the game would be more entertaining if every other play resulted in a penalty over an obscure rule.  Those same people would love to see 45 travels and 15 three seconds in the lane violations called per game in basketball.

15 million people just watched two teams with one win each play on a Thursday night while the Presidential debates we’re taking place.  Audiences are doing anything but dwindling.  The only thing that kept Buffalo in the game was the officiating, and you’re still bitching.

 

I agree with you about the no call, but the bolded is just wrong and stupid. The officials had very little impact in this game as a whole. 

[SirAndrew]

1 hour ago, MrSarcasm said:

This is the new 'traveling or 'double dribble' the NBA and basketball in general has.

 

Once rules become nonenforced or only sometimes enforced the game becomes less about the players and team and more about characters and story... WWE

This ^ Mahomes and the Chiefs offense generates excitement. The NFL doesn’t want to do anything that would hinder how they function. The league took the same approach to the Pats with all their illegal pick plays. That Pats offense wouldn’t have functioned without all those illegal pick plays either. It’s a conscious effort by the NFL to mold the game into what they believe sells best imo. I’m not saying we lost that game because of the refs, or the Chiefs aren’t a great team. I’m simply making the point that rules become flexible when leagues want to go in a certain direction. 

Edited October 24, 2020 by SirAndrew

[Billl]

32 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

I agree with you about the no call, but the bolded is just wrong and stupid. The officials had very little impact in this game as a whole. 

There were 4 penalties called in the first half.  All were on the Chiefs.  Three gave Buffalo first downs following incompletions on third and long.  The fourth took a Chiefs TD away after a lineman blew up a DB.