Seahawks-Browns discussed Wilson for 2018 #1

[CorkScrewHill]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/05/14/could-russell-wilson-be-traded-by-the-seahawks/

 

In hindsight the Browns should have taken it. Got me thinking which QBs would I trade straight-up for Josh Allen

 

KC - Mahommes (YES!)

LV - Carr (platued - no)

Denver - Lock (less proven than JA and less skilled - No)

SD - Taylor (No)

 

Indy - Rivers (downside of career - No)

Houston - Watson (Not 100% convinced  but odds of his success are better - Yes)

Jacksonville - Minschew (lower upside - No)

Tennessee - Tannihill (not as good as appeared last year - No)

 

Pittsburgh - Rothliesberger (downside of career / injury - No)

Baltimore - Jackson (not convinced he will be long-term great - but reluctant Yes)

Cleveland - Mayfield (Attitude / size - No)

Cincy - Burrow (Not proven - could be amazing or bust - Intrigued but pass)

 

NE - Stidham (Less athletic - No)

Jets - Darnold (more polished coming out of college, but has performed worse than JA so far; JA has higher ceiling - No)

Miami - Tua (Injury / not proven - Interesting but pass)

 

Eagles - Wentz (can't stay healthy - No)

Cowboys - Prescott (higher cost and less upside - No)

Redskins - Haskins (Just No)

Giants - Jones (Similar weaknesses to Josh with less upside - No)

 

Bears - Trubisky (Just No)

Packers - Rodgers (Prima-donna / downside of career - No)

Lions - Stafford (Never been abe to put it all together - No)

Vikings - Cousins (huge price for solid but not spectacular results - No)

 

Falcons - Ryan (I like his game, but closer to end than start of his career - tough choice but I would pass)

Saints - Brees (I love Brees but looking to retire soon - No)

Panthers - Bridgewater (placeholder till next guy IMHO - No)

Bucs - Brady (GOAT, but an old GOAT - No)

 

49ers - Garrapolo (never too impressed - No)

Rams - Goff (seems to have hit season and looks like a steady but not great QB - No)

Seahawks - Wilson (great leader / great player -- Yes)

Cardinals - Murray (was impressive as a rookie - I would be fine either way though I love Josh's size)

 

 

 

[Augie]

I’m so confused! I thought this was going to be about the Seahawks trading Russell Wilson to the Browns and why ON EARTH they might ever consider that. Even the article title ends in a question mark. I had heard this rumored, but that aside....this thread is all about trading Allen? I’m getting dizzy......

 

But I’m glad you like Josh!!!     

 

.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Augie

[RoyBatty is alive]

Considering Allen's upside and youth, it is hard to argue with trading him for much of anyone except for Watson, Jackson and/or Mahomes and still unproven Burrows.  Prescott is close.

 

Wilson, ehh maybe but he has some age on himself now.

Edited May 14, 2020 by RoyBatty is alive

[JaCrispy]

I would take Daniel Jones over Josh Allen straight up! He looked outstanding as a rookie, without all-Star WRs, and is only gonna get better...?

Edited May 14, 2020 by JaCrispy

[Victory Formation]

I’m confused. Explain.

[Rc2catch]

Either way JA is here and anyone we would consider moving him for would not be available anytime soon. 
That said, if forced to base an opinion I would only trade him for Mahomes or Wilson. But my opinion could certainly change by the end of the season. Most important season for a quarterback in buffalo in a really really long time. 

[mushypeaches]

5 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

I would take Daniel Jones over Josh Allen straight up! He looked outstanding as a rookie, without all-Star WRs, and is only gonna get better...?

 

Holy Christmas, I'd like some of what you're smoking 

[FireChans]

That’s insane IMO. Wilson is an MVP candidate every year. A winner, a mobile threat etc etc.

 

I liked the 2018 class as much as anyone (shout out Rosen and Baker) but what a gaffe that would have proven to be.

[Warcodered]

I think a big question from that article has to be who did the Seahawks want to get?

[KD in CA]

14 minutes ago, Augie said:

Where do I start? I thought this was going to be about the Seahawks trading Russell Wilson to the Browns and why ON EARTH they might ever consider that. Even the article title ends in a question mark. I had heard this rumored, but that aside....this thread is all about trading Allen? I’m getting dizzy......

 

But I’m glad you like Josh!!!     

 

.

 

You must be new here.  We could even turn a COVID-19 thread into a referendum on our QB.   ?

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

Why? Everything he said was accurate about Daniel Jones. A lot would argue he’s better than Allen. 

or just certain specific people.

[Doc Brown]

12 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

I would take Daniel Jones over Josh Allen straight up! He looked outstanding as a rookie, without all-Star WRs, and is only gonna get better...?

Besides his fumbling problems he was impressive.  There's no way in hell the Giants would make that trade.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

or just certain specific people.

I don’t think a lot of Giants fans would trade Jones for Allen. Jones quietly had a pretty solid rookie year.

[MJS]

19 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

I would take Daniel Jones over Josh Allen straight up! He looked outstanding as a rookie, without all-Star WRs, and is only gonna get better...?

That would be an extremely foolish trade.

[Bangarang]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

Why’s that?

Because Josh Allen is the greatest and there’s no chance another young QB could turn out better.

[Bangarang]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

Jones threw for more TDS and yards as a rookie than Josh in his 2nd year but trading Josh for Jones is “foolish”. ?

You don’t get it, all other young QBs are trending down whereas Allen is only going to keep getting better. 
 

If there’s one thing we’ve learned from watching Bills QBs it’s that they always get better. 

[Jauronimo]

32 minutes ago, FireChans said:

That’s insane IMO. Wilson is an MVP candidate every year. A winner, a mobile threat etc etc.

 

I liked the 2018 class as much as anyone (shout out Rosen and Baker) but what a gaffe that would have proven to be.

I bet Carroll was thinking about what he could do with Mayfield on a rookie deal and save $35 million to roll into skill positions and rebuilding a defense.  Paying max contract to a QB makes filling out the rest of your roster difficult.  

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Jauronimo said:

I bet Carroll was thinking about what he could do with Mayfield on a rookie deal and save $35 million to roll into skill positions and rebuilding a defense.  Paying max contract to a QB makes filling out the rest of your roster difficult.  

I’m sure he was. And I understand the argument, I just don’t agree with it.

 

Russ without a great team around him still put up STELLAR 18 and 19 campaigns. Baker put up good and okay numbers with a very talented Browns team (I know, Hue and Kitchens though.)

 

Russell’s contract isn’t preventing Carroll from falling into All-Pro DB’s in the fifth round which was the real reason that team was so nasty in 2014. The other core guys were mostly drafted in the later rounds.

[Gugny]

If the question is who I'd trade Allen for straight up:

 

Mahomes

Watson

Prescott

Wilson

 

Dat's it.

 

[Bangarang]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

If the question is who I'd trade Allen for straight up:

 

Mahomes

Watson

Prescott

Wilson

 

Dat's it.

 

No Lamar? That’s interesting.

[Jauronimo]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

If the question is who I'd trade Allen for straight up:

 

Mahomes

Watson

Prescott

Wilson

 

Dat's it.

 

Mahomes

Watson

Wilson

 

Rodgers 

 

This is a super bowl caliber roster with elite QB play.  I'd take a 2-3 year window with an aging Rodgers for the chance to win a super bowl.  

 

I don't think Dak is that much of an upgrade. 

[Gugny]

Just now, Bangarang said:

No Lamar? That’s interesting.

 

I think Josh is a much better QB with far worse coaching.  I'm hoping that, with the added talent on offense, Daboll will be able to somehow pry his head out of his ass and call plays that work best for the players on the field (instead of the 2007 Patriots).

[JaCrispy]

1 hour ago, mushypeaches said:

 

Holy Christmas, I'd like some of what you're smoking 

No need my friend...just go watch the tape...and furthermore, Jones, as a rookie, was better than Allen in virtually every major statistical category...

Edited May 14, 2020 by JaCrispy

[Gugny]

Just now, Jauronimo said:

Mahomes

Watson

Wilson

 

Rodgers 

 

This is a super bowl caliber roster with elite QB play.  I'd take a 2-3 year window with an aging Rodgers for the chance to win a super bowl.  

 

I don't think Dak is that much of an upgrade. 

 

I was on the fence on both Dak and Rodgers.  My main reason for not taking Rodgers is that I think he's a team cancer.  Dak has put up gaudy numbers, but I realize a lot of it has been an elite O line and Zeke Elliot.  That one is a tough call for me - and I agree that any upgrade would not be significant.

[RyanC883]

I'd only trade for Wilson or Mahomes.  

 

I also think Bridgewater is going to surprise people this year and possibly make the Pro Bowl.  

[Bangarang]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

I think Josh is a much better QB with far worse coaching.  I'm hoping that, with the added talent on offense, Daboll will be able to somehow pry his head out of his ass and call plays that work best for the players on the field (instead of the 2007 Patriots).

A much better QB? Is this based on anything other than the fact you’re a Bills fan? It honesty sounds crazy.

[Rico]

Josh Allen is my QB, right now I wouldn’t trade him for anyone else. 
 

GO JOSH!

[Bangarang]

If you’re only talking about long term prospects then the list of guys I’d trade Allen for straight is relatively small....probably like 5 guys.

 

However we have a pretty stacked and complete roster ready to compete for a championship right now. So keeping that in mind, if the goal is more short term in hopes of taking advantage of this roster then there are definitely better QBs that I think make that list a little longer. 

[MJS]

28 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Why’s that?

 

27 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Because Josh Allen is the greatest and there’s no chance another young QB could turn out better.

 

25 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Jones threw for more TDS and yards as a rookie than Josh in his 2nd year but trading Josh for Jones is “foolish”. ?

 

22 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

You don’t get it, all other young QBs are trending down whereas Allen is only going to keep getting better. 
 

If there’s one thing we’ve learned from watching Bills QBs it’s that they always get better. 

Jones was so great he got his team to 4 wins.

 

Josh Allen is better than Jones. He had more TD's and less INT's, oh and led his team to 6 more wins. Trading him for Jones would be idiotic.

[Bangarang]

4 minutes ago, MJS said:

 

 

 

Jones was so great he got his team to 4 wins.

 

Josh Allen is better than Jones. He had more TD's and less INT's, oh and led his team to 6 more wins. Trading him for Jones would be idiotic.

Wins aren’t a QB stat. Did you criticize Allen for only getting 5 wins as a rookie? Probably not because that would have been historically stupid. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Bangarang

[Gugny]

5 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

A much better QB? Is this based on anything other than the fact you’re a Bills fan? It honesty sounds crazy.

 

It's based on watching both QBs.  Lamar shocked the league with his athleticism.  It was clear that  by the end of the season, teams learned how to defend against him (take away the middle of the field; don't let him run).  Buffalo should have beaten the Ravens and did a great job containing Jackson.  Two years in a row, we've seen what playoff defenses do to him.

 

I think he's been exposed and the Ravens' window was last year ... now shut.

 

I think Allen is much more versatile, much smarter, will end up being more durable (Jackson won't last long running the ball that much).  

 

Jackson had a PHENOMENAL season last year and my hat's off to the young man.  But he will never come close to duplicating it.

 

Josh's ceiling is simply higher, IMO.

[MJS]

Just now, Bangarang said:

Wins aren’t a QB stat. Did you criticize Allen for only getting us to get 6 wins as a rookie? Probably not because that would have been historically stupid. 

 

QB is BY FAR the most important position in football and for winning games.

 

Would you have traded Allen for Mayfield after their rookie years? Probably. But after another year that trade looks stupid. Similarly, it would be silly to trade for Jones after his rookie year especially since his stats were not better than Allen's.

14 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

No need my friend...just go watch the tape...?

How much "tape" have you watched?

[Bangarang]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

It's based on watching both QBs.  Lamar shocked the league with his athleticism.  It was clear that  by the end of the season, teams learned how to defend against him (take away the middle of the field; don't let him run).  Buffalo should have beaten the Ravens and did a great job containing Jackson.  Two years in a row, we've seen what playoff defenses do to him.

We could have beaten Baltimore, unfortunately Allen was horrible and overwhelmed by the Ravens defense. They admitted their plan was to make him be a QB. 

 

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I think he's been exposed and the Ravens' window was last year ... now shut.

 

How was he exposed? He had a higher passer rating and threw significantly more TDs during the second half of the season.

 

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I think Allen is much more versatile, much smarter, will end up being more durable (Jackson won't last long running the ball that much).  

Versatile in what way? Smarter how? 
 

Allen has already suffered a concussion running with the ball and running is also a major part of Allen’s game so it won’t and shouldn’t be taken away. Not sure how you can make such a definitive statement about Jackson’s durability compared to Allen’s.
 

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

Jackson had a PHENOMENAL season last year and my hat's off to the young man.  But he will never come close to duplicating it.

 

Josh's ceiling is simply higher, IMO.

 

How is Allen’s ceiling higher when he’s never shown an ability to play at that high of a level? 
 

With Lamar, he’s shown us elite level production. With Allen, it’s still about potential. 
 

When you consider Allen’s ceiling, what kind of stats is he putting up?

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

We could have beaten Baltimore, unfortunately Allen was horrible and overwhelmed by the Ravens defense. They admitted their plan was to make him be a QB. 

 

 

How was he exposed? He had a higher passer rating and threw significantly more TDs during the second half of the season.

 

Versatile in what way? Smarter how? 
 

Allen has already suffered a concussion running with the ball and running is also a major part of Allen’s game so it won’t and shouldn’t be taken away. Not sure how you can make such a definitive statement about Jackson’s durability compared to Allen’s.
 

 

How is Allen’s ceiling higher when he’s never shown an ability to play at that high of a level? 
 

With Lamar, he’s shown us elite level production. With Allen, it’s still about potential. 
 

When you consider Allen’s ceiling, what kind of stats is he putting up?

 

Stats?  I'm not using any stats.  I'm looking at one QB who is a running back who throws dead accurate 4-feet-in-the-air passes to TEs in the middle of the field.  

 

And I'm looking at another QB who is a consistent long ball away from being a superstar.

[Bangarang]

20 minutes ago, MJS said:

 

QB is BY FAR the most important position in football and for winning games.

Wins still aren’t a QB stat and just blindly throwing them out there with literally no other context is stupid. 
 

Quote

Would you have traded Allen for Mayfield after their rookie years? Probably. But after another year that trade looks stupid.

Are we judging QBs based on a one year sample size now? Do we not take coaching into consideration? Do you think Freddie Kitchens was a good coach and maximized all the talent his team had? Did Mayfield suddenly become less talented? Does context matter at all to you?

 

Quote

 

Similarly, it would be silly to trade for Jones after his rookie year especially since his stats were not better than Allen's.

One could easily argue that in regards to rookie years, Daniel Jones was by far better than Allen. 
 

Even Jones’ rookie stats weren’t far off from Allen’s sophomore season and I’m sure the Giants are only expecting him to get better. It’s probably not as silly as you think.

[Chandler#81]

26 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Wins aren’t a QB stat. Did you criticize Allen for only getting 5 wins as a rookie? Probably not because that would have been historically stupid. 

???????????????????????????????????

 

i actually agree completely with this. But the majority of members here either completely disagree to the point of sleepless nights or quickly use it to argue against it. It all depends on the day and whether meds had been dispensed yet.

[Motorin']

17 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

We could have beaten Baltimore, unfortunately Allen was horrible and overwhelmed by the Ravens defense. They admitted their plan was to make him be a QB. 

 

 

How was he exposed? He had a higher passer rating and threw significantly more TDs during the second half of the season.

 

Versatile in what way? Smarter how? 
 

Allen has already suffered a concussion running with the ball and running is also a major part of Allen’s game so it won’t and shouldn’t be taken away. Not sure how you can make such a definitive statement about Jackson’s durability compared to Allen’s.
 

 

How is Allen’s ceiling higher when he’s never shown an ability to play at that high of a level? 
 

With Lamar, he’s shown us elite level production. With Allen, it’s still about potential. 
 

When you consider Allen’s ceiling, what kind of stats is he putting up?

I thought Jackson's performance last season was one of the best all-time individual seasons. With that said, the Bills' sort of wrote the book ok how to contain him. I wouldn't be surprised to see him regress, and with his running style he's just one hit away from serious trouble. 

 

I can see JA growing into a 4000 yard, 30 TD qb on a yearly basis. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Motorin'

[Bangarang]

15 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Stats?  I'm not using any stats.  I'm looking at one QB who is a running back who throws dead accurate 4-feet-in-the-air passes to TEs in the middle of the field.  

 

And I'm looking at another QB who is a consistent long ball away from being a superstar.

Can you provide any kind of substance as to how Allen has a higher ceiling? If it’s just based on hope because you’re a Bills fan then I’d even take that. 
 

And calling Lamar a RB after having an elite MVP season as a QB is so ignorant. 

 

Just to clarify, because Allen may one day be a superstar, he’s clearly superior to the guy who proved he already was one? Got it...

 

 

[Gugny]

Just now, Bangarang said:

Can you provide any kind of substance as to how Allen has a higher ceiling? If it’s just based on hope because you’re a Bills fan then I’d even take that. 
 

And calling Lamar a RB after having an elite MVP season as a QB is so ignorant. 

 

Just to clarify, because Allen may one day be a superstar, he’s clearly superior to the guy who proved he already was one? Got it...

 

 

 

Not acknowledging that Lamar Jackson is a RB is silly.

 

I've given you as much substance as I choose to.  I've watch both players in multiple games and I'd rather have Josh Allen as my long-term QB than Lamar Jackson.

 

Again ... Jackson had a fantastic season.  My opinion is simply that he'll never come close to doing it again and that if we fast forward to 2025, Josh Allen will be a top 5 QB in the league and Jackson will be a backup.  Again .. my opinion.

 

My opinion is based on the eye test and history.  Because history has given us a lot of running QBs who've had limited regular season success and short-lived careers as starters.

 

Josh will be better.  Period.

[Bangarang]

10 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

I thought Jackson's performance last season was one of the best all-time individual seasons. With that said, the Bills' sort of wrote the book ok how to contain him. I wouldn't be surprised to see him regress, and with his running style he's just one hit away from serious trouble. 

Allen is just one hit away from serious trouble too..

 

Quote

I can see JA growing into a 4000 yard, 30 TD qb on a yearly basis. 

He definitely has the talent to do it.