Trent Murphy upped his game late last season and is better than many think

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I don’t think Murphy is Kelsay but I do agree overall Shaq was better and more valuable overall than Trent last year. Better against run. Very underrated in blocking passing lanes and tipping passes. Very consistent overall. Trent made a bunch of good plays. Had better pressure than a lot gave him credit for. I thought Shaq was easily better. 

I know there are other factors but if we don’t have Trent, do you think they keep Shaq?

[Happy]

23 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

The guy that saw the field the most among DLmen, who was also 2nd among DEs in sacks, and was 2nd on the team in QB hurries, had “little to nothing” to do with the defensive performance?

 

Forgive me, but that’s an overstatement at best.

 

I have no idea where you got these stats.  Here:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=DEFENSIVE_LINEMAN&d-447263-s=DEFENSIVE_SACKS&tabSeq=1&season=2019&experience=&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=true

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I know there are other factors but if we don’t have Trent, do you think they keep Shaq?

I think they tried to keep him. Put a value on him slightly less or a million or two less than 10m per. If they didn’t have Trent they likely would have thought he was a little more valuable. Tough to say. He’s also a tough player to evaluate. I really liked Shaq last year. I imagine he’s not going to be much better in Miami and maybe not as good. 

[thebandit27]

3 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I have no idea where you got these stats.  Here:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=DEFENSIVE_LINEMAN&d-447263-s=DEFENSIVE_SACKS&tabSeq=1&season=2019&experience=&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=true

Here:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2019_advanced.htm

2nd on the team in hurries, 3rd in QB knockdowns, 2nd in sacks among EDGE players, 2nd in pressures among EDGE players, and lead all DEs in tackles while also missing the fewest tackles among DEs.

Edited March 19, 2020 by thebandit27

[GunnerBill]

But he couldn't seal an edge if he had a bucket full of sealant. Cut him. Move on. We should expect better. 

[Turk71]

3 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Trying to recall last season did we have a 4 or 3 man rotation at DE?  I know we had Hughes, Lawson, and Murphy mainly.  And 7th rounder Johnson.  Am I forgetting someone that did play a fair amount of snaps?  Now have Addison, Hughes, Murphy, and Johnson. 

 

At tackle had Oliver, Phillips, Star, and Liguit (once Harrison went down).  This year have Oliver, Star, Harrison, the new guy Butler, but also another or does that last one plat both tackle and end?

  Jefferson can play anywhere on the line evidently. Bills have a pretty solid rotation and depth.

   I'm more concerned about the o line to be honest. They were not as good a unit as the d line was last year and nothing has been done to change that at all. They are hoping they improve with continuity and experience, I hope they are right.

 

[Alphadawg7]

3 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

I thought this deserved its own thread given all the talk about the various moving d-line pieces following all of these d-line signings. In the final six games of 2019 including the playoff game, Murphy had six sacks, six tackles for loss, and 8 qb hits. He averaged playing 67 percent of the snaps too. Obviously and inarguably, that is elite production.  I don’t think he’s going anywhere. Many years ago, a wise man named @AKC talked about d-line equity, focusing in particular on the Giants SB teams that beat the Pats (particularly the 07 team). When you can rotate in good d-lineman after good d-lineman over the course of a game, it becomes very, very tough for an offense to produce. The Bills now have d-line equity in spades. It is going to be fun to watch.
 

Here is Murphy’s 2019 game log: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MurpTr00/gamelog/2019/. 

 

Yeah I do not get the utter hate for Murphy.  Is he a stud and pro bowl level player?  No of course not, but he has been a solid player for us and much better than he gets credit for, especially last year when he was healthy.  

It basically reminds me of what people say about Jordan Howard.  Everyone loves to say Howard sucks or is trash, but thats just not the case as he is a lot better than some make him out to be.  

 

I think we have a pretty darn good DE rotation right now with the guys we had already and the guys we just signed, Murphy included.  

[Cash]

3 hours ago, papazoid said:

too little , too late

 

his contract says they save $8 mil if cut ($1.75 dead money)

 

id say its 75% likely hes gone

 

I think it’s unlikely he’s cut unless they sign another vet or Daryl Johnston takes a big step and needs PT. You want 4 edge rushers to rotate on pass downs. I think Jefferson will be rushing from the interior in those formations, so if I’m right that leaves Hughes, Addison, Murphy, and Johnston. Johnston was getting exploited so badly at DE that he was benched after a couple games last year. If he doesn’t take a huge leap, you’re still 1 guy short. 

 

Im assuming they’ll draft a DE high, but even that only gets you to 4 DEs for passing downs not counting Johnston. 

[Happy]

46 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Here:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2019_advanced.htm

2nd on the team in hurries, 3rd in QB knockdowns, 2nd in sacks among EDGE players, 2nd in pressures among EDGE players, and lead all DEs in tackles while also missing the fewest tackles among DEs.

 

This is for the Bills only.  Doesn't compare to other d-linement in the league.  Bottom line is to be a championship team, you can't settle for the Murphy's and Star's of the world.

33 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

But he couldn't seal an edge if he had a bucket full of sealant. Cut him. Move on. We should expect better. 

 

Which is exactly why he gets picked on in wide runs, misdirections, and screens.  Murphy is usually pushed well out of the play by the RT.

[thebandit27]

15 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

This is for the Bills only.  Doesn't compare to other d-linement in the league.  Bottom line is to be a championship team, you can't settle for the Murphy's and Star's of the world.

 

So Murphy isn’t even an NFL player at this point? Or he’s so bad that he can’t even be a DE3 or DE4 on a good team?

 

This is waaaaay out there for you.

[dorquemada]

2 hours ago, BigBillsFan said:

Why do headlines on TBD resemble buzzfeed headlines?

 

Kroft's Hidden Production Was Better Than We Think

McDermott's Secret Clap That Signifies War

8 Things Beane Does Before He Signs A Free Agent

 

 

The Diggs signing and Why That's Good for Hillary Clinton

 

wait that might be vox.  hard to tell them apart sometimes

[Royale with Cheese]

29 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

This is for the Bills only.  Doesn't compare to other d-linement in the league.  Bottom line is to be a championship team, you can't settle for the Murphy's and Star's of the world.

 

Which is exactly why he gets picked on in wide runs, misdirections, and screens.  Murphy is usually pushed well out of the play by the RT.

I’m pretty sure that if Murphy was as bad as you say, he would have led all of our defensive lineman in snaps.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

He completely padded his stats with one game.  He was invisible for most of the season.  And Shaq is a younger, ascending player who has rarely been hurt.  I didn’t want to pay him that much but I do wonder if we didn’t have Trent, would we have?  Because I would rather have Shaq than Kelsey 2.0. 

Look at his stats and look at his visibility on the field.   He was a different player the second half of the season.  

 

Murphy is definitely NOT Kelsay 2.0.   Same work ethic, to be sure, but Kelsay never was an explosive playmaker.   Murphy has done that.

 

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 hours ago, GG said:

He's the most likely cut candidate because there are a lot of mouths to feed on that DL.   Bills lost 3 starting/rotation DLs from last year's season end lineup (Shaq, Phillips & Liuget), and are adding at least 4 starting/rotation DLs in '20 (Addison, Jefferson, Butler & Harry's return).  Plus, Bills have to address a developmental DE in the draft.    

 

The math doesn't bode well for Murphy

 

Good - hes motivated.  At the end of the day, its an important year.  Hughes, Addison, Murphys not a bad 3 man rotation.  We have to have a rookie we like so much that we are comfortable cutting him.  

[dorquemada]

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Look at his stats and look at his visibility on the field.   He was a different player the second half of the season.  

 

Murphy is definitely NOT Kelsay 2.0.   Same work ethic, to be sure, but Kelsay never was an explosive playmaker.   Murphy has done that.

 

 

 

i like how murphy came on at the end of the season but he has a huge head (i mean, like an actual enlarged head) and seems too narrow to be a DL player.  It absolutely ruins my immersion

 

on the other hand, didn't he say something about 'playing north of the wall' when he was signed?  if true he should retire a bill

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Look at his stats and look at his visibility on the field.   He was a different player the second half of the season.  

 

Murphy is definitely NOT Kelsay 2.0.   Same work ethic, to be sure, but Kelsay never was an explosive playmaker.   Murphy has done that.

 

 

 

Explosive? Murphy? Come off it. 

[C.Biscuit97]

10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Look at his stats and look at his visibility on the field.   He was a different player the second half of the season.  

 

Murphy is definitely NOT Kelsay 2.0.   Same work ethic, to be sure, but Kelsay never was an explosive playmaker.   Murphy has done that.

 

 

Explosive player maker?  A guy with averages a little over 4 sacks/ year is far from explosive.  Come on.  He sets the edge fairly well.  But there is nothing explosive about his game.  He plays on a really good defense but he is the definition of JAG. He is Kelsay 2.0 on a good defense. 

[Bad Things]

He always seemed to be a half step too late in making any impactful plays. 

We can/should do better.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Explosive player maker?  A guy with averages a little over 4 sacks/ year is far from explosive.  Come on.  He sets the edge fairly well.  But there is nothing explosive about his game.  He plays on a really good defense but he is the definition of JAG. He is Kelsay 2.0 on a good defense. 

 

He doesn't set the edge well. He is a dreadful edge setter. He is good for two decent rushes a game and is a liability every other snap. 

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

He doesn't set the edge well. He is a dreadful edge setter. He is good for two decent rushes a game and is a liability every other snap. 

I was trying to be nice haha.  

3 minutes ago, Bad Things said:

He always seemed to be a half step too late in making any impactful plays. 

We can/should do better.

It’s probably because he’s too explosive. 

[John from Riverside]

4 hours ago, Jamie Mueller said:

I just can't believe that the Bills would cut Trent Murphy after patiently waiting almost 2 years for the pre-surgery player to show up.  He'll get at least training camp and the pre-season games to prove that the end of last season wasn't a mirage.  Like Poyer, he might even get extended.

I think that you might be right here

[GG]

11 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

Good - hes motivated.  At the end of the day, its an important year.  Hughes, Addison, Murphys not a bad 3 man rotation.  We have to have a rookie we like so much that we are comfortable cutting him.  

 

You're forgetting Bam Johnson.

 

As of now, there are 9 DLs on the roster, and only 1 under 25 yrs of age.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, Turk71 said:

  Jefferson can play anywhere on the line evidently. Bills have a pretty solid rotation and depth.

   I'm more concerned about the o line to be honest. They were not as good a unit as the d line was last year and nothing has been done to change that at all. They are hoping they improve with continuity and experience, I hope they are right.

 

 

To say they'e done nothing isn't true, they've allowed Ford to gain a year of experience which is no small thing for a rookie.  Plus have got a year of experience playing together.  Last year Morse missed all of the off-season, so they will improve.  Their depth is also better as beyond the starting five have Waddle, Bates, Long and Ty.  Admittedly if they do draft a guy, one of those 4 will be gone, or maybe Bates goes to PS assuming he passes waivers or maybe they can trade one for another 5th or 6th rounder.

 

Unless they signed one of the high priced guys, not likely to see any improvement there anyway on the O-line.  Likely will draft someone fairly high to be Feleciano's replacement next off-season when he's a FA.  They will either draft a guard to directly replace him,or a RT and then move Ford inside

[Dopey]

5 hours ago, Hebert19 said:

If that 8M goes to a guy that's better then we are in the business of winning. 

Are we going to get a better DE for 8M or less?

4 hours ago, Just Joshin' said:

When they are gone, it will be someone else.

 

I can't wait for the hype on the UDFA WR who will be a star.

He's still here. 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Dopey

[Dopey]

4 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

Murphy (and Star) get paid too much for what they do.  You can't keep Murphy at $8M/year.  Murphy had a good game vs Houston and now all of a sudden he is clutch.  The rest of the year he wasn't anything spectacular.  Counting on Murphy and Star to make your defense stout is like counting on a car air freshener to make an outhouse smell good.

I can't believe some are saying we were a top 6 defense in spite of these players. Hey guys, can we stay on topic and discuss Murphy? Star had his thread. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

13 minutes ago, GG said:

 

You're forgetting Bam Johnson.

 

As of now, there are 9 DLs on the roster, and only 1 under 25 yrs of age.

 

Oliver, Phillips, Johnson... Butler is 25... Jefferson and Love are 26...

[GG]

Just now, dneveu said:

 

Oliver, Phillips, Johnson... Butler is 25... Jefferson and Love are 26...

 

Sorry, meant only 1 DE is under 25.  If you add Love, that's 10 DLs at the moment.  Do you think they don't draft another DE?  Who's the odd man out?

[Dopey]

3 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Then at least don't play him greater than 33% of the snaps, if that.  Having guys like Star and Murphy simply means you have depth, that's it.

This thread is about Murphy. 1 pitch fork at a time.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

4 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Sorry, meant only 1 DE is under 25.  If you add Love, that's 10 DLs at the moment.  Do you think they don't draft another DE?  Who's the odd man out?

 

Johnson and love would be the odd men out if they draft someone in round 2 or 3.  They need to push a veteran out of a spot in a heavily rotated position.  To take murphys 3rd DE spot, they need to have flexibility to play both sides, need to be able to play rush and pass downs, as well as special teams.  

 

Both can be on the practice squad though

Edited March 19, 2020 by dneveu

[Turk71]

19 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

To say they'e done nothing isn't true, they've allowed Ford to gain a year of experience which is no small thing for a rookie.  Plus have got a year of experience playing together.  Last year Morse missed all of the off-season, so they will improve.  Their depth is also better as beyond the starting five have Waddle, Bates, Long and Ty.  Admittedly if they do draft a guy, one of those 4 will be gone, or maybe Bates goes to PS assuming he passes waivers or maybe they can trade one for another 5th or 6th rounder.

 

Unless they signed one of the high priced guys, not likely to see any improvement there anyway on the O-line.  Likely will draft someone fairly high to be Feleciano's replacement next off-season when he's a FA.  They will either draft a guard to directly replace him,or a RT and then move Ford inside

Bulaga signed for 10 mil per, Graham Glasgow for 11. Both of those guys were huge upgrades and hardly high priced. Especially when you are willing to pay 9 mil to an average dt (Butler) to play part time.

  If allowing the same five guys who comprised a below average line last year to play another year together is 'doing something'..........

Edited March 19, 2020 by Turk71

[Udubalum07]

I saw a major improvement later in the year. If he is 100 percent healthy for a full off-season and regular year, I believe he could still be valuable to this defense. Still would like to add an edge to infuse some youth in the position room.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

7 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

Bulaga signed for 10 mil per, Graham Glasgow for 11. Both of those guys were huge upgrades and hardly high priced. Especially when you are willing to pay 9 mil to an average dt (Butler) to play part time.

  If allowing the same five guys who comprised a below average line last year to play another year together is 'doing something'..........

 

So the only way this makes any sense at all is if you signed him, then move Ford to guard and no re-sign Spain.  You don't draft a guy in the 2nd round who showed quite a bit of promise , then bench him the following season so Ford will be starting.  At the better option is to build through the draft.

 

I wouldn't call the line below average.

[Hampton Josh fan]

Trent stayed healthy and was very effective in a rotation with Lawson and Lorax. He should be retained. A solid veteran presence. 

[GunnerBill]

41 minutes ago, GG said:

 

You're forgetting Bam Johnson.

 

As of now, there are 9 DLs on the roster, and only 1 under 25 yrs of age.

 

Two surely? Johnson and Oliver? 

27 minutes ago, Dopey said:

I can't believe some are saying we were a top 6 defense in spite of these players. Hey guys, can we stay on topic and discuss Murphy? Star had his thread. 

 

It is despite Murphy. Star has a role he is just overpaid. Murphy is crap. 

[Happy]

2 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

So Murphy isn’t even an NFL player at this point? Or he’s so bad that he can’t even be a DE3 or DE4 on a good team?

 

This is waaaaay out there for you.

 

He IS a DE3 or DE4.  I NEVER said he wasn't an NFL player, just that he is not a starter or even should see greater than 25% of snaps.

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I’m pretty sure that if Murphy was as bad as you say, he would have led all of our defensive lineman in snaps.

 

Murphy played as much as he did because the DE/edge position really wasn't addressed last year.  Murphy was overvalued by Beane/McD in 2017.

1 hour ago, Dopey said:

This thread is about Murphy. 1 pitch fork at a time.

 

Will do, thread shepherd.

[34-78-83]

4 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Dude is Chris Kelsey.  Not the worst but so easily replaceable for so much cheaper.  He had 3 sacks until that ? fest last game.  He has 24 sacks in 5 years, 10 FF, and 1 int.   He is a JAG and his best feature is setting the edge, which is something you don’t need to spend big money on.

 

this regime has done some really good things.  But they have some outdated views on football with the Star, Murphy, and need for a veteran rb. 

Maybe the issue here is more about the understanding of the responsibilities of the LDE in Sean's scheme. Just something for you to consider. And 8 mil per season is jack squat. Also, I doubt he had many "numbers" in the game, but Murphy played fantastic vs. the Ravens this past season, as an example of what Sean wanted out of his LDE.

Edited March 19, 2020 by 34-78-83

[thebandit27]

5 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

He IS a DE3 or DE4.  I NEVER said he wasn't an NFL player, just that he is not a starter or even should see greater than 25% of snaps.

 

Murphy played as much as he did because the DE/edge position really wasn't addressed last year.  Murphy was overvalued by Beane/McD in 2017.

 

Will do, thread shepherd.

Well, you said that you can’t have Murphy on the team and be a SB contender, so you can imagine why that’s the impression someone gets.

 

Also, on how many teams does the DE3 (or DE4) actually see 25% of the snaps or less?

[Happy]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

Well, you said that you can’t have Murphy on the team and be a SB contender, so you can imagine why that’s the impression someone gets.

 

Also, on how many teams does the DE3 (or DE4) actually see 25% of the snaps or less?

 

Didn't mean to give the wrong impression, Murphy is DE depth.

 

Second sentence: no idea, probably not many.  My point is that he is basically a depth player that is used only as needed.  Not part of the planned rotation.

2 hours ago, Bad Things said:

He always seemed to be a half step too late in making any impactful plays. 

 

Because Murphy is trying to get back into the play from the RT pushing him 10 yards away from the action.

[dave mcbride]

4 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I'm glad someone sees the big picture.

 

Murphy is worth $15-20M/year?  Now I know you've jumped the shark.

you're misreading what he said.

3 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

He completely padded his stats with one game.  He was invisible for most of the season.  And Shaq is a younger, ascending player who has rarely been hurt.  I didn’t want to pay him that much but I do wonder if we didn’t have Trent, would we have?  Because I would rather have Shaq than Kelsey 2.0. 

This simply isn't true (in the, you know, factual sense). The production was consistent over the course of the final six games. 

[Royale with Cheese]

19 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

Murphy played as much as he did because the DE/edge position really wasn't addressed last year.  Murphy was overvalued by Beane/McD in 2017.

 

Why didn’t Shaq play more than him?