The Next Pandemic: SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19

[Tiberius]

Add to list

A new Democratic administration facing down a massive economic crisis pushes a $800 billion stimulus package. A bloc of centrist Democrats balk at the price-tag, and Republicans are thrown into a frenzy warning about the impact to the federal deficit.

A little more than a decade later, another new Democratic administration takes office facing a different economic crisis. This time, it proposes spending an additional $1.9 trillion in spending, even though the federal deficit last year was $3.1 trillion — much larger than during the last crisis. Centrist Democrats unify behind passing the measure, and the GOP rejects it but in a more muted fashion.

The disparity between the reception to President Barack Obama’s 2009 stimulus plan and President Biden’s is the result of several seismic shifts in American politics — the most dramatic of which may be the apparent impact of the pandemic on attitudes about the role of government in helping the economy.

AD

Since the outset of the coronavirus, polling has found substantial support among Americans for providing more government aid for those in need. That is partially due to the nature of the current crisis, which for a time opened a deeper economic hole than even the Great Recession. But the shift is also the result of a reorientation on economic policy — both on the left and on the right — that has transformed the political landscape.

Biden’s economic team set to prepare ambitious recovery plan, challenging Republicans’ renewed debt worries

On the right, congressional Republican lawmakers may still fret about higher deficits — but the most popular politician among their voters does not. Both as a candidate and as president, Donald Trump blew past Republican concerns about the deficit, pushing for trillions in additional spending and tax cuts and running unprecedented peacetime debt levels.

And on the left, Democratic lawmakers have increasingly learned to ignore fears about spending too much. Party leaders have said they suffered crippling political defeats in the 2010s precisely because they did not deliver enough meaningful economic relief under Obama — a mistake that they see an opportunity to correct under Biden. Democrats also repeatedly tout the 2017 Republican tax cut, which is expected to add approximately $2 trillion to the national deficit, as a reason to be skeptical of GOP concerns about fiscal restraint.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2021/03/07/stimulus-politics/

[SoCal Deek]

21 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Add to list

A new Democratic administration facing down a massive economic crisis pushes a $800 billion stimulus package. A bloc of centrist Democrats balk at the price-tag, and Republicans are thrown into a frenzy warning about the impact to the federal deficit.

A little more than a decade later, another new Democratic administration takes office facing a different economic crisis. This time, it proposes spending an additional $1.9 trillion in spending, even though the federal deficit last year was $3.1 trillion — much larger than during the last crisis. Centrist Democrats unify behind passing the measure, and the GOP rejects it but in a more muted fashion.

The disparity between the reception to President Barack Obama’s 2009 stimulus plan and President Biden’s is the result of several seismic shifts in American politics — the most dramatic of which may be the apparent impact of the pandemic on attitudes about the role of government in helping the economy.

AD

Since the outset of the coronavirus, polling has found substantial support among Americans for providing more government aid for those in need. That is partially due to the nature of the current crisis, which for a time opened a deeper economic hole than even the Great Recession. But the shift is also the result of a reorientation on economic policy — both on the left and on the right — that has transformed the political landscape.

Biden’s economic team set to prepare ambitious recovery plan, challenging Republicans’ renewed debt worries

On the right, congressional Republican lawmakers may still fret about higher deficits — but the most popular politician among their voters does not. Both as a candidate and as president, Donald Trump blew past Republican concerns about the deficit, pushing for trillions in additional spending and tax cuts and running unprecedented peacetime debt levels.

And on the left, Democratic lawmakers have increasingly learned to ignore fears about spending too much. Party leaders have said they suffered crippling political defeats in the 2010s precisely because they did not deliver enough meaningful economic relief under Obama — a mistake that they see an opportunity to correct under Biden. Democrats also repeatedly tout the 2017 Republican tax cut, which is expected to add approximately $2 trillion to the national deficit, as a reason to be skeptical of GOP concerns about fiscal restraint.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2021/03/07/stimulus-politics/

Hey Tibs 

The 2017 tax cut didn’t add to the deficit but the runaway out of control spending sure as heck did. 

[Scraps]

4 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Hey Tibs 

The 2017 tax cut didn’t add to the deficit but the runaway out of control spending sure as heck did. 

Republicons controlled all the levers of power at the time.  They own both the revenue and any excesses in spending.  The country was racking up trillion dollar deficits every year, despite extremely low unemployment.

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, Scraps said:

Republicons controlled all the levers of power at the time.  They own both the revenue and any excesses in spending.  The country was racking up trillion dollar deficits every year, despite extremely low unemployment.

I agree. You’ll notice my response didn’t mention either political party. A pox on both of their houses! 

[Scraps]

9 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I agree. You’ll notice my response didn’t mention either political party. A pox on both of their houses! 

Trump included?

[SoCal Deek]

13 minutes ago, Scraps said:

Trump included?

And Biden for you?

[Scraps]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

And Biden for you?

I asked my question first.  I'll answer yours if you answer mine.  Or are you going to continue to dodge, as I expect.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Scraps

[oldmanfan]

56 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Hey Tibs 

The 2017 tax cut didn’t add to the deficit but the runaway out of control spending sure as heck did. 

When we take over the White House (we still have to flip a coin for which of us takes which position), we can wipe out around 6 cabinet departments minimum, don’t you think?

 

Then I get a good accountant to tell me what each Senator and Congressman gets in federal funding, and I give them a month to tell me what cuts they make to decrease their federal spending by 30%.  If they don’t I arbitrarily decide, then send the bill to Congress.

[SoCal Deek]

28 minutes ago, Scraps said:

I asked my question first.  I'll answer yours if you answer mine.  Or are you going to continue to dodge, as I expect.

I’ll answer. I’m for anyone who’ll cut taxes. Trump, Biden, whoever. Is that good enough for you? If we’re going to to run these federal deficits with or without tax increases or decreases I’m voting for less taxes every single time. 

8 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

When we take over the White House (we still have to flip a coin for which of us takes which position), we can wipe out around 6 cabinet departments minimum, don’t you think?

 

Then I get a good accountant to tell me what each Senator and Congressman gets in federal funding, and I give them a month to tell me what cuts they make to decrease their federal spending by 30%.  If they don’t I arbitrarily decide, then send the bill to Congress.

Bingo sir! Sign me up! 

[Scraps]

12 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’ll answer. I’m for anyone who’ll cut taxes. Trump, Biden, whoever. Is that good enough for you? If we’re going to to run these federal deficits with or without tax increases or decreases I’m voting for less taxes every single time. 

 

I am dead set against people who will ring up the credit card our children, their children and grandchildren with no chance of ever balancing the budget.  I think the mantra of just "cut taxes" is selfish and short sighted.  For that reason, Trump , the self described "king of debt" was a disaster.

 

 

[oldmanfan]

33 minutes ago, Scraps said:

 

I am dead set against people who will ring up the credit card our children, their children and grandchildren with no chance of ever balancing the budget.  I think the mantra of just "cut taxes" is selfish and short sighted.  For that reason, Trump , the self described "king of debt" was a disaster.

 

 

The federal government needs to get back to doing what is proscribed by the Constitution.  Those things that only a federal government can do.  That would cut spending tremendously.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

11 hours ago, Scraps said:

You don't come across as a fan of the Fauc and sarcasm in your posts are humorous.

I want to trust Fauci, I really do.  
 

The biggest factor for me is the disconnect between his words and actions on putting normality on hold for a year v his response to mass gatherings over the last year.
 

I think he was weak and tepid when he could have displayed the leadership I would expect from a guy in his position.  It’s easy to suggest he’s the science guy, not the political guy, but therein lies the problem for me.   
 

He had a platform and unprecedented access to the American people.  He opined on all sorts of things from family gatherings to multiple household events and the like.  
 

I’m just a guy trying to figure it all out during what he says is a pandemic and the danger to our way of life extreme.  Yet, on mass gatherings of people he treaded lightly and brought the political into it.  
 

As this mandate has dragged on...I’ve gotten to the point where I simply don’t trust him and question his motives.  
 

7 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Go do it.  The trials showed no real risks for any of the 3.  

As I said, I’m not on the fence about it.  I don’t want any flu bug (or worse) ever.  I’m a terrible patient and if it causes mass sterilization my seeds have already been sown.  👨🏻‍🦳

[BillStime]

 

[Doc]

Handling.  LOL!

[BillStime]

Just now, Doc said:

Handling.  LOL!

YUP

 

[BillStime]

 

[SoCal Deek]

3 hours ago, Scraps said:

 

I am dead set against people who will ring up the credit card our children, their children and grandchildren with no chance of ever balancing the budget.  I think the mantra of just "cut taxes" is selfish and short sighted.  For that reason, Trump , the self described "king of debt" was a disaster.

 

 

Well there we do differ. Now I’m not saying this to be boastful but as someone who’s well into the highest earnings bracket I’m beyond fed up with what I’m being asked to fund. I gladly pitched in during the Great Recession when the Obama Administration asked that my taxes be raised to help a nation in need. I just as gladly accepted the exact same tax percentage cut when Trump recommended putting my rate back where it was when Obama took office. Seemed more than fair to me...and it was. Not sure why we can’t do the same with the SPENDING side of the equation. Instead, it keeps spiraling ever upward. 

[B-Man]

 

 

COVID Relief Bill Passes Senate; Now Back to House For Another Round of Stupidity

By Jennifer Van Laar

 

https://redstate.com/jenvanlaar/2021/03/06/covid-relief-bill-passes-senate-now-back-to-house-for-another-round-of-stupidity-n338525

 

“The Senate has never spent $2 trillion in a more haphazard way. [Democrats’] top priority wasn’t pandemic relief. It was their Washington wish list.”

 

 

The purpose of this bill was to bail out the years of fiscally criminal behavior of blues state governments. They have trying to do this for 6 years.

This subsidizes the oppressive taxation that accompanies oppressive laws where instead of those who live in those states dealing with the consequences, they have now socialized them to the whole country and future generations to suffer.

 

Stolen elections have consequences.

 

 

 

 

[BillStime]

5 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

COVID Relief Bill Passes Senate; Now Back to House For Another Round of Stupidity

By Jennifer Van Laar

 

https://redstate.com/jenvanlaar/2021/03/06/covid-relief-bill-passes-senate-now-back-to-house-for-another-round-of-stupidity-n338525

 

“The Senate has never spent $2 trillion in a more haphazard way. [Democrats’] top priority wasn’t pandemic relief. It was their Washington wish list.”

 

 

The purpose of this bill was to bail out the years of fiscally criminal behavior of blues state governments. They have trying to do this for 6 years.

This subsidizes the oppressive taxation that accompanies oppressive laws where instead of those who live in those states dealing with the consequences, they have now socialized them to the whole country and future generations to suffer.

 

Stolen elections have consequences.

 

 

 

 

 

REDSTATE!!!!!

 

Wait - "Stolen elections have consequences." Weren't you just biching about Blue ANON conspiracies?

 

SMH

lmao

 

 

[B-Man]

COVID DERANGEMENT SYNDROME: Coronavirus has the Karens and Biden voters cowering.

 

Covid Derangement Syndrome — it’s real, and there was a massive outbreak of it this week.

 

Three states announced they were ending the absurd yearlong “mask mandates,” and the left’s collective head exploded in outrage.

The reason is because this isn’t about public health anymore, or even politics, if it ever was. COVID is now the state religion, and the decisions by these GOP governors aren’t seen as a policy dispute, they’re considered heresy.

 

Only an infidel or an apostate denies that there is a … mild seasonal virus out there. Half the population cowers in abject terror — afflicted with CDS.

 

In New England, the leading prophet of the new faith is Gov. Charlie Baker. On Wednesday, in his daily sermon to the faithful, Tall Deval outlined the significance of the Mask in his strange cult:

 

“I think the mask mandate has been an important element in both encouraging behavior but also in sending a message about the importance of recognizing and understanding that COVID is still very much with us.”

 

He sounds like earlier generations of clergymen railing against the devil’s unending temptations, doesn’t he? But his real “message” is — we’re in charge, and you will do what you’re told.

 

It used to be said, if you want to send a message, call Western Union. Now you just tell people they’re going to be afflicted with prolonged suffering and a gooey death if they don’t obey your orders, no matter how preposterous.

 

And half the population — the feeble-minded, the Biden voters, the Karens — will instantly comply.

 

 

QED, someone who bills herself as a “Syndicated op-ed columnist @washingtonpost, commentator @cnn, special correspondent @newshour” admitting that she’s incapable of doing her job as a fact and opinion gathering journalist:

 

She better get used to mask burning parties eventually ­going nationwide in the coming year as more and more people are vaccinated.

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by B-Man

[Buffarukus]

20 hours ago, Scraps said:

How a party runs their nominating process is up to them.  Certainly in 2016, with the super delegates, the Dems had a system that was tilted against Bernie Sanders.  The logic for this was to put a brake on the polar extreme of the party  and prevent them from choosing someone who was unelectable in the general election.  I'm not a Democrat so I don't have a dog in that fight.  I can see both points of view.  Both parties have had processes that some would consider unfair historically.

 

 

how a nominating process of a party is up to them? what exactly is the point of having primaries if the will of the american voter becomes subverted by what a party feels is best for them. Bernie was winning many delegates up until Iowa! why even have Bernie or any of the others "not approved" waste money, time and resources, only to do everything within their power to not get them the nomination regardless. if that isn't concidered blatant corruption on the highest level then your pretty much agreeing with me that democrats don't care about election integrity. they are perfectly fine with the establishment making the choice for them as long as they produce the facade they had any say in the process. perfectly happy to tow the anyone but trump line after the decision was made on their behalf...TWICE!

 

you say both do it, which is true on a level but i can promise you if the RNC were as corrupt, donald trump would have never become the presidential nominee. established republicans were not in support of a outsider stepping in. the people voted and that's where the chips fell. its how democracy is supposed to work, like it or not.

 

 

so this was the basis of my argument. the democrats are not calling for in depth transparent investigations into their own elections and think the other half of the country should share their low standards, shut up and sit down. i gave plenty of reasons why, true or not, rational people would believe their were problems with this general election as the same issues happened in the democratic primary. 

 

you seem to suggest well if there were problems then they would be presented on a right wing platforms. im pretty sure they have been, continuously. i gave two examples of problems. one that led to a arrest.  the other that was immediately censored instead of what should be the standard debated. then you say that they are not presenting it and is not censored? i tryed my best not to include right wing sites as my links, it is not easy but does it make it less true? i wish there was less biased media but it simply one or the other for MOST well known publications..period.

 

i haven't conducted full research of the general election but you go rather in depth on voting machine software basically saying it is proven there were no issues. a quick search reveals.

 

https://www.rt.com/usa/509674-michigan-dominion-audit-errors-fraud/

 

"We conclude that the Dominion Voting System is intentionally and purposefully designed with inherent errors to create systemic fraud and influence election results."

 

you talk about recounts and everyone laughed as alot of them revealed biden actually gained more votes in areas. noone really stopped to think how most recounts FOUND hundreds and in some cases thousands of uncounted votes. all voices that would never have been counted. but every vote counts and if its not enough to change the outcome..no issues here? there seems to be a overarching theme of "widespread" and "changed results". there are alot of issues found that dont fall under that very exclusive umbrella and can be dismissed as untrue!  [ fact check : FALSE! ] this issue def would NOT have changed the election!  no one asked that question in the first place. 🙄

 

you talk about the court hearings thrown out. i agree for the most part. but when laws are changed by those in power the last minute its pretty easy to not break it. not saying that is the case, mostly cause i dont want to research it all, but the last minute state changes are just another reason that draws suspicion regardless. broken pipes that stopped voting that evidence showed never existed. ballot watchers being told as long as they were in the same building then that constitutes the process was "overseen" regardless if they were near the actual ballot processing, due to covid of coarse. being able to actually observe at a reasonable distance had to be fought in court! the list goes on and on. 

 

we can go back and forth but i think it boils down to this.

 

20 hours ago, Scraps said:

Why is it so difficult to accept the most simplest, straight forward answer.  Enough voters were either dissatisfied with or sick and tired of him, or both, and Trump lost.

 

when you have a huge population that has lost confidence in the electoral process you cannot just say..get over it. you cannot just say corruption did or did not happen as a absolute.

 

I've provided alot of aligations that produces suspicion and im not sure why anyone would disagree regardless if true, its suspicious. in many cases these are not some off the wall way out there conspiracy theory type accusations. the things i shown are just the tip of other accusations.

 

crazy idea but how about a full and transparent investigation of the election by a completely independant body? when it comes to postal, or insurrection our gov loves to deep dive into issues, somtimes repeatedly. not so much here. how about the democrats address why voter ID is so difficult to obtain for democratic voters, even though its not, and address THAT, instead of eliminating it from elections..which invites SUSPICION. people are fighting AGAINST HAVING A ID!!? i think we know the real reason why! address signature verification issues conservatives have. why are they trying to pass unsolicited voter enrollment...which is SUSPICIOUS. why are they trying to allow people to collect ballots on others behalf regardless of reason...which will make the system open to more voter harvesting!

 

instead of eliminating things that provide more election integrity they seem intent on endorsing the things that produce fraud allegations. like i said the democrats have a very low bar and the supporters will not like the outcome of one party rule if they don't demand better. historically one party rule is where things become very scary.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Buffarukus

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Buffarukus said:

 

how a nominating process of a party is up to them? what exactly is the point of having primaries if the will of the american voter becomes subverted by what a party feels is best for them. Bernie was winning many delegates up until Iowa! why even have Bernie or any of the others "not approved" waste money, time and resources, only to do everything within their power to not get them the nomination regardless. if that isn't concidered blatant corruption on the highest level then your pretty much agreeing with me that democrats don't care about election integrity. they are perfectly fine with the establishment making the choice for them as long as they produce the facade they had any say in the process. perfectly happy to tow the anyone but trump line after the decision was made on their behalf...TWICE!

 

you say both do it, which is true on a level but i can promise you if the RNC were as corrupt, donald trump would have never become the presidential nominee. established republicans were not in support of a outsider stepping in. the people voted and that's where the chips fell. its how democracy is supposed to work, like it or not.

 

 

so this was the basis of my argument. the democrats are not calling for in depth transparent investigations into their own elections and think the other half of the country should share their low standards, shut up and sit down. i gave plenty of reasons why, true or not, rational people would believe their were problems with this general election as the same issues happened in the democratic primary. 

 

you seem to suggest well if there were problems then they would be presented on a right wing platforms. im pretty sure they have been, continuously. i gave two examples of problems. one that led to a arrest.  the other that was immediately censored instead of what should be the standard debated. then you say that they are not presenting it and is not censored? i tryed my best not to include right wing sites as my links, it is not easy but does it make it less true? i wish there was less biased media but it simply one or the other for MOST well known publications..period.

 

i haven't conducted full research of the general election but you go rather in depth on voting machine software basically saying it is proven there were no issues. a quick search reveals.

 

https://www.rt.com/usa/509674-michigan-dominion-audit-errors-fraud/

 

"We conclude that the Dominion Voting System is intentionally and purposefully designed with inherent errors to create systemic fraud and influence election results."

 

you talk about recounts and everyone laughed as alot of them revealed biden actually gained more votes in areas. noone really stopped to think how most recounts FOUND hundreds and in some cases thousands of uncounted votes. all voices that would never have been counted. but every vote counts and if its not enough to change the outcome..no issues here?

 

you talk about the court hearings thrown out. i agree for the most part. but when laws are changed by those in power the last minute its pretty easy to not break it. not saying that is the case, mostly cause i dont want to research it all, but the last minute state changes are just another reason that draws suspicion regardless. broken pipes that stopped voting that evidence showed never existed. ballot watchers being told as long as they were in the same building then that constitutes the process was "overseen" regardless if they were near the actual ballot processing, due to covid of coarse. being able to actually observe at a reasonable distance had to be fought in court! the list goes on and on. 

 

we can go back and forth but i think it boils down to this.

 

 

when you have a huge population that has lost confidence in the electoral process you cannot just say..get over it. you cannot just say corruption did or did not happen as a absolute.

 

I've provided alot of aligations that produces suspicion and im not sure why anyone would disagree regardless if true, its suspicious. in many cases these are not not some off the wall way out there conspiracy theory stuff. the things i shown are just the tip of other accusations.

 

crazy idea but how about a full and transparent investigation of the election by a completely independant body? when it comes to postal, or insurrection our gov loves to deep dive into issues, somtimes repeatedly. not so much here. how about the democrats address why voter ID is so difficult to obtain for democratic voters, even though its not, and address THAT, instead of eliminating it from elections..which invites SUSPICION. people are fighting AGAINST HAVING A ID!!? i think we know the real reason why! address signature verification issues conservatives have. why are they trying to pass unsolicited voter enrollment...which is SUSPICIOUS. why are they trying to allow people to collect ballots on others behalf regardless of reason...which will make the system open to more voter harvesting!

 

instead of eliminating things that provide more election integrity they seem intent on endorsing the things that produce fraud allegations. like i said the democrats have a very low bar and the supporters will not like the outcome of one party rule if they don't demand better. historically one party rule is where things become very scary.

 

 

Ok, first if all do you really think quoting a Russian media site on the voting machines buttresses your argument?  Seriously?  The audits I am aware of all confirmed there were no abnormalities with the Dominion voting machines.  And now that they’re suing those who slandered them discovery will show what occurred.  Assuming the idiots claiming that are also too stupid to settle out of court.
 

Now, as far as how the parties choose their nominees, the parties have their mechanisms and I don’t really care about that as I don’t have a constitutional right to vote in primaries.  It used to be the bosses picked them in a smoke filled room.  Now both parties lie, cheat and steal.  Remember how Bush lied about McCain having an illegitimate child who was actually his adopted daughter?  How about Trump lying about Cruz’s father?  And yes Sanders probably got screwed.  And Clyborne got Biden going in SC and we don’t know what pressure was put on nominees after that.
 

But that is a means to an end where we all get to participate, and there simply is no evidence to support widespread election fraud.  None.  Remember the special investigation Trump demanded into the 2016 election to root out supposed fraud?  You may not because the investigation was quietly terminated because it yielded nothing.  In 2020 the DOJ said there was no evidence of widespread fraud.  States that audited and reaffirmed their votes concluded there was no fraud.  When Giuliani tried to get the Pennsylvania courts to intervene he told them specifically they were not claiming fraud.  You claim states changed their laws; they did so to ensure that voters during the epidemic were not going to be deprived of their right to vote, and despite 60 some court cases no court said any legislature did anything illegal.  And what they did helped make sure the Constitutional right to vote was protected for all.  What you should be pissed about is the efforts to disenfranchise voters, like people in line to vote getting a bottle of water from a volunteer.  If you care so much about supposed problems with primaries and voting as such, I hope you’ll join me in Georgia next election  if this idiotic law is held up, and hand out water.

 

You say a huge population has lost confidence in elections.  Do you know why?  Because they wanted Trump and that dishonest carnival barker started telling them weeks before the election that if he lost it was because it was rigged.  It wasn’t rigged.  He lost and his ego refused to accept it.  Republicans now unworthy of the label Republicans participated in this charade because they were afraid of losing around 25% of voters, the hard core Trump supporters, who are incapable of separating themselves from their fantasy, and somehow believe a guy who lost the presidency  and both the Senate and House is the answer to their political salvation.

 

You ask for an independent investigation.  The Trump campaign challenged results in states they wanted to challenge, and they lost.  There you go.  That is how elections work.  There is no reason to add another layer to this just because Trump can’t accept defeat.  And who would run a so-called investigation?  The DOJ as I already pointed out found no evidence and that was run by Barr.  So you want to put together some outside team?  Led by who? With what investigatory powers?  And when they reach the same conclusion the states and DOJ reached, will Trump and his supporters accept that?  Are you so naive to think they will?  What should have been done is for leaders of both parties to stand side by side and confirm in no uncertain terms that the election was fair and that Biden was elected.  But that would involve integrity, which is in very short supply these days.

 

As you say, we can go back and forth but it boils down to this:  when you know that 2+2=4 and some if the population swear 2+2=5, or when you know the sky is blue but some of the population say it’s purple, and they say it because a guy like Trump tells them so, that is your problem.  The political system in our country is far from perfect.  But to fix it your have to focus on facts, and you have to fight against deliberate lies.  Joe Biden is President because he was duly elected in a free and fair election.  Rather than indulge those who want to live in conspiracy we would all benefit from focusing on the truth.

 

Reviewing this I sound harsh, and apologize for the tone as I believe you are sincere in wanting to establish good dialog.  But my general approach and opinion stand regardless of my harshness-I am just tired of what this continues to do to our country.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by oldmanfan

[Buffarukus]

8 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Ok, first if all do you really think quoting a Russian media site on the voting machines buttresses your argument?  Seriously?  The audits I am aware of all confirmed there were no abnormalities with the Dominion voting machines.  And now that they’re suing those who slandered them discovery will show what occurred.  Assuming the idiots claiming that are also too stupid to settle out of court.

 

several sites to choose from that reported that so i could choose another site if you like. if its false claims against the software that's fine with me. I'm providing evidence to the contrary that these machines were perfectly safe with no issues. that statement was made by a independent..non Russian investigation team. sorry it was presented on RT. im not seeing anything on this from the mainstream but there are other sites that have the exact same story if it makes you more comfortable. strange how your not a democrat but you seem to be pushing the russian collusion propagada that the last "election fraud" debate was propagated from....... and lasted in the media for 3 years! a impeachment trial, and is now universally understood to be baseless. 

 

i guess ill go back and get the other research i found just to show this isn't a singular story based on russian propaganda.

 

https://leohohmann.com/2020/11/13/software-engineers-report-dominion-flipped-minimum-of-138000-votes-from-trump-to-biden-in-michigan/

anyways back to the topic.

 

your original claim was the election was absolutely not stolen and people need to stop saying it was. in which i basically said democrats have had issues in their own election and are telling others they must agree on absolutes? do you absolutely know if Bernie gets a fair shot he loses to hillary and trump never becomes president? they should be screaming about their own issues before they tell others they are insane. the democrats are fighting to make some of those concerns permanent laws now. yes i know your not a democrat..i was! so i think its important. i am also an american who wants to not ever have this happen to our country again.

 

you then wanted evidence on the democrats and i provided it. i wrote a very long post that should be at the very least be eye opening for those on that side who are hypocritically condemning.. showing striking similarities. 

 

 after i provide it your stance is

33 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Now, as far as how the parties choose their nominees, the parties have their mechanisms and I don’t really care about that as I don’t have a constitutional right to vote in primaries.

 

so I'm not sure why you wanted evidence in the first place. 

 

yes i know candidates sling mud at each other. i also know when the establishment aligns all of its power against a candidate that is corrupt and wrong. i stated "why even run candidates you will destroy if they get to far?" you seem to absolve these things because you don't care and selections were done in secret in smokey rooms in the past. thats fine and basically confirms my original statement minus putting you in the democrat side. for those that are interested in selecting the person who represents their party its important that they receive a fair unbiased chance. its the only way we see someone not in line with the establishment ever actually obtain power. that's pretty important to me no matter which party wins but according to some, only the general election is important so we can choose which establishment backed candidate we think is less evil from now on. not a good outlook for the future with this ideology.

 

when it comes to fools declaring election fraud.

 

 

 

somehow ive been put in the strange position of defending trumps allegations and having to scour the internet for factual proof that he himself has not. that's not what I'm saying and never was my stance. my stance is that there is validity to peoples idea that we have alot of troubling problems in our election system and yes i believe corruption was involved. the overwhelming evidence seems to say that joe biden was elected as presidents but that in no way means that there were not very troubling ways in which that happened. that also does not mean if they were corrected he would not have been. this isn't as simple as the answer is 4 and everyone else who does not agree is flat out wrong. 

 

if your independent as you claim to be then you see the issues i brought up. only a partisan would fight against measures that degrade the confidence all americans should have in our elections, primary and all. trump may have lost and you may be right that covid forced changes. odd that Fauci and the cdc said voting in person was perfectly safe. odd that the mail in ballots were made in the way they seem hard to retrace after discarded. now that vaccines are going to be out will those laws that were changed last minute, you say justifiably,  be changed back? hmmm

 

so ill restate some of my issues.

3 hours ago, Buffarukus said:

how about the democrats address why voter ID is so difficult to obtain for democratic voters, even though its not, and address THAT, instead of eliminating it from elections..which invites SUSPICION. people are fighting AGAINST HAVING A ID!!? i think we know the real reason why! address signature verification issues conservatives have. why are they trying to pass unsolicited voter enrollment...which is SUSPICIOUS. why are they trying to allow people to collect ballots on others behalf regardless of reason...which will make the system open to more voter harvesting!

 

and yes i fully support you grabbing your bootstraps, get a job and buy some water not on the taxpayers dime if you want to vote in a line!!! georgians! always with the water gimme gimme gimme 🙄

 

just kidding. of coarse i support that measure.

 

[oldmanfan]

15 minutes ago, Buffarukus said:

 

several sites to choose from that reported that so i could choose another site if you like. if its false claims against the software that's fine with me. I'm providing evidence to the contrary that these machines were perfectly safe with no issues. that statement was made by a independent..non Russian investigation team. sorry it was presented on RT. im not seeing anything on this from the mainstream but there are other sites that have the exact same story if it makes you more comfortable. strange how your not a democrat but you seem to be pushing the russian collusion propagada that the last "election fraud" debate was propagated from....... and lasted in the media for 3 years! a impeachment trial, and is now universally understood to be baseless. 

 

i guess ill go back and get the other research i found just to show this isn't a singular story based on russian propaganda.

 

https://leohohmann.com/2020/11/13/software-engineers-report-dominion-flipped-minimum-of-138000-votes-from-trump-to-biden-in-michigan/

anyways back to the topic.

 

your original claim was the election was absolutely not stolen and people need to stop saying it was. in which i basically said democrats have had issues in their own election and are telling others they must agree on absolutes? do you absolutely know if Bernie gets a fair shot he loses to hillary and trump never becomes president? they should be screaming about their own issues before they tell others they are insane. the democrats are fighting to make some of those concerns permanent laws now. yes i know your not a democrat..i was! so i think its important. i am also an american who wants to not ever have this happen to our country again.

 

you then wanted evidence on the democrats and i provided it. i wrote a very long post that should be at the very least be eye opening for those on that side who are hypocritically condemning.. showing striking similarities. 

 

 after i provide it your stance is

 

so I'm not sure why you wanted evidence in the first place. 

 

yes i know candidates sling mud at each other. i also know when the establishment aligns all of its power against a candidate that is corrupt and wrong. i stated "why even run candidates you will destroy if they get to far?" you seem to absolve these things because you don't care and selections were done in secret in smokey rooms in the past. thats fine and basically confirms my original statement minus putting you in the democrat side. for those that are interested in selecting the person who represents their party its important that they receive a fair unbiased chance. its the only way we see someone not in line with the establishment ever actually obtain power. that's pretty important to me no matter which party wins but according to some, only the general election is important so we can choose which establishment backed candidate we think is less evil from now on. not a good outlook for the future with this ideology.

 

when it comes to fools declaring election fraud.

 

 

 

somehow ive been put in the strange position of defending trumps allegations and having to scour the internet for factual proof that he himself has not. that's not what I'm saying and never was my stance. my stance is that there is validity to peoples idea that we have alot of troubling problems in our election system and yes i believe corruption was involved. the overwhelming evidence seems to say that joe biden was elected as presidents but that in no way means that there were not very troubling ways in which that happened. that also does not mean if they were corrected he would not have been. this isn't as simple as the answer is 4 and everyone else who does not agree is flat out wrong. 

 

if your independent as you claim to be then you see the issues i brought up. only a partisan would fight against measures that degrade the confidence all americans should have in our elections, primary and all. trump may have lost and you may be right that covid forced changes. odd that Fauci and the cdc said voting in person was perfectly safe. odd that the mail in ballots were made in the way they seem hard to retrace after discarded. now that vaccines are going to be out will those laws that were changed last minute, you say justifiably,  be changed back? hmmm

 

so ill restate some of my issues.

 

and yes i fully support you grabbing your bootstraps, get a job and buy some water not on the taxpayers dime if you want to vote in a line!!! georgians! always with the water gimme gimme gimme 🙄

 

just kidding. of coarse i support that measure.

 

You have repeated there is validity in people’s feelings that there are problems with our electoral system, when there is no evidence to support that.  Again, the Trump insisted on a special investigation into the 2016 election; it ended with nothing to support such a claim.  The DOJ found nothing to support fraud in 2020 that could have caused a problem.  Georgia relooked at votes 3 times and found nothing.  Other states such as Arizona found no problems when they reviewed results.  There simply is nothing there.  When accusations are made there have to be some factual basis for them.  And yes the primary system may- may - be different but that to me pales in comparison to the ultimate office holder.

 

Plus you have to think of this logically.  If there was a problem, say, with the machines why would they only affect the presidential election?  And only in certain states?  Again, the only reason- the only reason- that we are talking about this is because Trump got it into the heads of his supporters weeks before the election that if he lost it was rigged.  
 

One last thing.  You say something about me believing Russian affected the 2016 election.  I have not opined on that at all.

[Buffarukus]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

You have repeated there is validity in people’s feelings that there are problems with our electoral system, when there is no evidence to support that.  Again, the Trump insisted on a special investigation into the 2016 election; it ended with nothing to support such a claim.  The DOJ found nothing to support fraud in 2020 that could have caused a problem.  Georgia relooked at votes 3 times and found nothing.  Other states such as Arizona found no problems when they reviewed results.  There simply is nothing there.  When accusations are made there have to be some factual basis for them.  And yes the primary system may- may - be different but that to me pales in comparison to the ultimate office holder.

 

Plus you have to think of this logically.  If there was a problem, say, with the machines why would they only affect the presidential election?  And only in certain states?  Again, the only reason- the only reason- that we are talking about this is because Trump got it into the heads of his supporters weeks before the election that if he lost it was rigged.  
 

One last thing.  You say something about me believing Russian affected the 2016 election.  I have not opined on that at all.

 

you keep moving the goalposts. you wanted evidence of democrat manipulation. i gave it. you said my source was bad for voter software issues i gave you another source for a entirely different story. i made my stance very clear. i think if its not clear proof for widespread or election changing then it will be discounted as nothing significant as it has been thus far. i even stated how recounts DID find something as well.. VOTES! some places "found" thousands! some hundreds. a problem existed that otherwise would not have counted those voices. hopefully it is being looked at and rectified as well as the other issues i raised.

 

if you believe the election was flawless and democrats are well intentioned group of leaders that will implement positive voting changes for all americans by strengthening voter integrity then im glad you have that level of optimism. i see some very dangerous thinking on it. opening boarders mixed with no voter identification nessasary for instance has been on a bill I've seen. the breath act contained those things clear as dau on the website until it was removed recently. of coarse im a bigot for my opposition to that ideology by some. the fact they eliminated the green candidate shows they care nothing about disenfranchising people, integrity and I'm just learning about this HR1 that looks to have loads of corruption, especially against 3rd parties. 

 

as for the russian propaganda thing i accused you of believing. that was a tounge in cheek remark hoping you would draw similarities to 4 years ago. when a huge amount of people and elected officials demanded that our election was infiltrated by outside enemies of the website you said i shouldn't use, seeing the comparison? ahhh maybe poorly executed, anyways, large amounts of calls to reform our susceptible voting machines and their software as well as our system in general. so it is never infiltrated again. i supported those reforms, without a lick of evidence provided. i produced alot more proof in this thread then they ever did. but it did not matter either way, why would I fight against demands to secure our electoral process and  continue to make half the country feel disenfrachised? not alot of upside to that stance...either🤔 

 

i read your edit on your first reply. no man. no hard feelings. hopefully none your way either. just internet jabber. 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Buffarukus

[Doc Brown]

6 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

You have repeated there is validity in people’s feelings that there are problems with our electoral system, when there is no evidence to support that.  Again, the Trump insisted on a special investigation into the 2016 election; it ended with nothing to support such a claim.  The DOJ found nothing to support fraud in 2020 that could have caused a problem.  Georgia relooked at votes 3 times and found nothing.  Other states such as Arizona found no problems when they reviewed results.  There simply is nothing there.  When accusations are made there have to be some factual basis for them.  And yes the primary system may- may - be different but that to me pales in comparison to the ultimate office holder.

 

Plus you have to think of this logically.  If there was a problem, say, with the machines why would they only affect the presidential election?  And only in certain states?  Again, the only reason- the only reason- that we are talking about this is because Trump got it into the heads of his supporters weeks before the election that if he lost it was rigged.  
 

One last thing.  You say something about me believing Russian affected the 2016 election.  I have not opined on that at all.

Just block these people out.  It's a fruitless battle.  The election was stolen from Trump and nothing you say will convince them otherwise.

[Tiberius]

Nice comparison of Trump's tax cuts vs. Biden's relief bill 

 

https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/steve-rattner-how-biden-s-bill-differs-from-trump-s-tax-cut-102347333932 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

3 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Nice comparison of Trump's tax cuts vs. Biden's relief bill 

 

https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/steve-rattner-how-biden-s-bill-differs-from-trump-s-tax-cut-102347333932 

 

 

What? These aren’t the same thing or meant to do the same thing 

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

What? These aren’t the same thing or meant to do the same thing 

 

No, Joey's are totally different and SOOOOO much better.

[SoCal Deek]

14 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

No, Joey's are totally different and SOOOOO much better.

Well I’m sure that’s true if the MSM tells me so. 

[TH3]

On 3/7/2021 at 8:32 AM, SoCal Deek said:

Hey Tibs 

The 2017 tax cut didn’t add to the deficit but the runaway out of control spending sure as heck did. 

Nope...the Trump tax cuts did not pay for themselves....no.

 

DT was such an economic wizard and deal maker....he raised the GDP from BO 2.3 to......2.4 percent while doubling the yearly debt.....and guys like you think he was something special.

 

DT was the epitome of the CEO who stumbled in to a small window of perfect circumstance where even he couldn’t eff it up. Low interest rates plus 9 years of pent up demand = good economy. FFS BO inherited economic  devastation and handed off an economy with 2.3 percent growth and saw unemployment go from over 10 to below 5. Trump took 2.3 to 2.4 and unemployment from 4.8 to 3.5.

 

He got the ball first and goal at the 2......and then butchered everything with his cv response.

[SoCal Deek]

12 minutes ago, TH3 said:

Nope...the Trump tax cuts did not pay for themselves....no.

 

DT was such an economic wizard and deal maker....he raised the GDP from BO 2.3 to......2.4 percent while doubling the yearly debt.....and guys like you think he was something special.

 

DT was the epitome of the CEO who stumbled in to a small window of perfect circumstance where even he couldn’t eff it up. Low interest rates plus 9 years of pent up demand = good economy. FFS BO inherited economic  devastation and handed off an economy with 2.3 percent growth and saw unemployment go from over 10 to below 5. Trump took 2.3 to 2.4 and unemployment from 4.8 to 3.5.

 

He got the ball first and goal at the 2......and then butchered everything with his cv response.

And you’re a hack! That vaccine you’re wetting yourself over was developed under Trump. Suck on it!

[Big Blitz]

1 year anniversary!

 

 

 

[B-Man]

 

 

As EVERYONE knew...............

 

 

 

[B-Man]

 

 

 

Also.

 

 

 

 

 

 

                         

This is the difference in outcomes between NM and TX after one year of vastly different policies.

 

What we have done to children in blue states has been needless, performative sacrifice.

 

We’ve convinced ourselves it was necessary, but it did nothing to “keep us safe.”

[SoCal Deek]

A little statistical analysis this morning as we near the one year anniversary of the Great Shut Down. So where did we end up? How did each State fair after a year’s laboratory experiment of varying regulatory policies and executive orders?

 

1. Virtually every State is within 10% of  national average for deaths per million, which currently sits at 1,600 per million. 
2. The outliers significantly ABOVE the average are those States surrounding the NYC Metro area. They were high in the beginning and remain so after a year.

3. The outliers significantly BELOW the average appear to be those in the remotest corners of the country. Hawaii and Alaska as you’d expect, but also Washington and Oregon in the NW; and Maine and Vermont in the far NE.

 

So what do these numbers show? What do they tell us? They show what we knew but fought desperately to control with well intentioned policy mandates: Covid 19 spreads from person to person. Those in remote regions naturally contact less outside people. And....The intermittent regulations we imposed on ourselves had virtually no impact on the mortality rate from this virus.

[ALF]

4 or 5 weeks from now we will know how Texas is doing to compare with restrictions 

[716er]

7 minutes ago, ALF said:

4 or 5 weeks from now we will know how Texas is doing to compare with restrictions 

 

They will blame higher covid numbers on border crossings just like they planned.

[ALF]

13 minutes ago, 716er said:

 

They will blame higher covid numbers on border crossings just like they planned.

 

Millions being vaccinated should  compensate for border crossers I would think.

[RiotAct]

11 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

As EVERYONE knew...............

 

 

 

rewarding bad behavior, pretty much.