The Next Pandemic: SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19

[3rdnlng]

2 hours ago, daz28 said:

Isn't leaving everything up to the governors kind of the definition of chaotic disaster if it goes horribly wrong?

Obviously, you haven't been following along with what's been going on. The federal government cannot make the decisions for the states. They have developed guidelines and encouraged adjacent states to work together as it pertains to loosening the shutdown rules. Yes, we have some dumb fvcking governors out there such as Whitman, Newsome, Cuomo and Wolf that have made matters worse but it is what it is. 

[daz28]

5 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Obviously, you haven't been following along with what's been going on. The federal government cannot make the decisions for the states. They have developed guidelines and encouraged adjacent states to work together as it pertains to loosening the shutdown rules. Yes, we have some dumb fvcking governors out there such as Whitman, Newsome, Cuomo and Wolf that have made matters worse but it is what it is. 

Oh but I have.  Trump said he was ALLOWING them to do it their way, and he would step in if he needed to.  Either ultimate or absolute authority or something along those lines.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is from someone else I know who's in health care:

 

Simple infection control for beginners...
You wear gloves,mask,gown,face/eye protection...you enter infected patient room and perform necessary treatment.
You are protected from patient,patient is protected from you(and any other patients)
You then remove gown,gloves,eye protection and mask—-and discard!
You repeat for every positive patient...period. BUT WAIT, “THE NYS POWERS THAT BE” SAY DUE TO SHORTAGE RE-USE PPE ALL YOUR SHIFT!! THEN! WHEN U HAVE AN EPIDEMIC INSIDE A FACILITY EVERYONE WONDERS WHY??!!!

 

 

 

 

I also know there's a big discussion about what codes you can use for billing.  IOW, if insurance is even going to pay for it.

Edited May 10, 2020 by daz28

[Reality Check]

1 hour ago, shoshin said:

 

There's actual evidence that the shutdown is destroying the economy. 

 

If it was anecdotal only, it would be questionable. 

The reasons for the shutdown AT THE TIME were anecdotal. Did you intentionally miss the point? Then again, I don't believe a double blind study has been done on the actual cause of this economic disaster, since you don't budge without one of those.

[B-Man]

HOW BADLY IS GAVIN NEWSOM’S PERMA-SHUTDOWN GOING? WILLIE BROWN IS SAVAGING HIM IN THE CHRONICLE: 

 

This can’t go on. California has to figure a way out. 

 

“When people were asked to shelter in place, they did so in amazing numbers and with no plan.

But nobody envisioned the shelter-in-place would last this long.”

 

 

 

UPDATE: When Willie Brown and Mary Katharine Ham are on the same side:

 

[Buffalo_Gal]

42 minutes ago, Magox said:

Birx early on held her tongue but indirectly made the case early on that the ventilator shortage drama that was playing out with the governors and media was being overstated, even though it was heresy to publicly outright say it at the time.

 

Still happening. Heck, we have true believers and shamers in this thread, and when anyone points out anything that contradicts the party-line, is a conspiracy, you want grandma to diiiiiiiiiiiiieeeee, yada yada.

 

[Buffalo_Gal]

I do not think anyone here is is defending WHO or China, but a German newspaper has this story:
 

China pressured WHO to delay global coronavirus warning: report
 

Chinese President Xi Jinping pressured the director of the World Health Organization in January to hold off on issuing a global warning about the coronavirus outbreak, according to a report in a German newspaper.
 

The Jan. 21 conversation between Jinping and WHO leader Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus was reported in Der Spiegel, which cited intelligence from Germany’s federal intelligence service, known as the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND).
 

The report published over the weekend said Xi urged the WHO chief to “delay a global warning” about the pandemic and hold back information on human-to-human transmission of the virus.
 

</snip>

[shoshin]

20 minutes ago, Reality Check said:

The reasons for the shutdown AT THE TIME were anecdotal. Did you intentionally miss the point? Then again, I don't believe a double blind study has been done on the actual cause of this economic disaster, since you don't budge without one of those.

 

Covid-19 cases and deaths were not anecdotal at the time of the shutdown--they were exponentially rising and we had no real idea how high that rise would go-- and we all knew the economic consequences would be dire. That's why Trump initially wanted the shutdown to be for 15 days. Then based on evidence (even more cases and deaths), not anecdote, he pushed that goal out. 

 

It seems like you're making some argument that because HCQ has nothing but anecdote supporting it, we should not have shut down the country because the evidence of Covid-19 was anecdotal. You're not making a coherent point.

4 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

I do not think anyone here is is defending WHO or China, but a German newspaper has this story:
 

China pressured WHO to delay global coronavirus warning: report
 

Chinese President Xi Jinping pressured the director of the World Health Organization in January to hold off on issuing a global warning about the coronavirus outbreak, according to a report in a German newspaper.
 

The Jan. 21 conversation between Jinping and WHO leader Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus was reported in Der Spiegel, which cited intelligence from Germany’s federal intelligence service, known as the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND).
 

The report published over the weekend said Xi urged the WHO chief to “delay a global warning” about the pandemic and hold back information on human-to-human transmission of the virus.
 

</snip>

 

Trump loves the guy but I don't get it. He's no friend of the world and when the dust settles here, a lot of countries will turn a harsh eye to China. 

 

*****************

This model, one of the several the CDC approves of, has done a good job predicting things in the last month. 

 

Cutting to the chase, it predicts 190K dead by early August and long rate of steady cases and deaths through the summer (a flattened curve). 

 

https://covid19-projections.com/

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by shoshin

[Buffalo_Gal]

4 minutes ago, shoshin said:

 

Trump loves the guy but I don't get it. He's no friend of the world and when the dust settles here, a lot of countries will turn a harsh eye to China. 

 

 

Er, I am not certain how you get that. He constantly bashes, then retracts, bashes, retracts. President Trump is a negotiator. He does push-pull, flattery, strong-arm, etc. His favorite appears to be push-pull. 

I think you are going to see some interesting times for China in the near future.

24 minutes ago, Reality Check said:

The reasons for the shutdown AT THE TIME were anecdotal. Did you intentionally miss the point? Then again, I don't believe a double blind study has been done on the actual cause of this economic disaster, since you don't budge without one of those.

I didn't want to put this in here as it goes further on China than COVID-19. There may have been fear it was a bio-weapon, and that may be why the world shut down.
 

 

[shoshin]

 

 

 

You can't believe anything Trump says but he does say stuff like the above. And many other examples of praise for Xi. 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by shoshin

[snafu]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

I didn't want to put this in here as it goes further on China than COVID-19. There may have been fear it was a bio-weapon, and that may be why the world shut down.

 

The world adopted China’s solution to the problem China caused — enforced shutdown. Whether this virus is a bio-weapon is irrelevant. Natural or man-made, it does to people what it does.

 

One difference in results is that the Western World doesn’t enforce mandatory shutdowns with military patrols and guns.  Nor should they. And their citizens don’t usually gobble up the remedy without questioning it, but they did.  And now the decisionmakers are afraid of their own shadow.  This policy painted everyone into a corner.

 

 

[Buffalo_Gal]

1 minute ago, shoshin said:

 

 

 

You can't believe anything Trump says but he does say stuff like the above. And many other examples of praise for Xi. 

 

If course he does!! WTH do you expect a negotiator to say?  Exactly how would you negotiate with China? You are asshoe, now let's work a deal?  SMH

Now as to that February tweet... methinks what is "known" in February (or what information US Intelligence is trying to glean in February) may be very different than what will be known in August.  Check Trump's tone later as more information is being gathered and becomes available. He qualifies, but is most unhappy with China (I am pretty sure he wasn't happy with them in January as he closed the border to flights from China).

I would never consider Trump to be a diplomat, but as a negotiator who is being hamstrung by past deals? Yeah, I think he's done ok.

(You may want to take this to the China thread. ? )




 

Just now, snafu said:

 

The world adopted China’s solution to the problem China caused — enforced shutdown. Whether this virus is a bio-weapon is irrelevant. Natural or man-made, it does to people what it does.

 

One difference in results is that the Western World doesn’t enforce mandatory shutdowns with military patrols and guns.  Nor should they. And their citizens don’t usually gobble up the remedy without questioning it, but they did.  And now the decisionmakers are afraid of their own shadow.  This policy painted everyone into a corner.

 

 

Makes you wonder what the intel on the Wuhan virus was, doesn't it?

[daz28]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

Makes you wonder what the intel on the Wuhan virus was, doesn't it?

Wouldn't we love to know, but there's a catch.  China is our adversary, so whatever information THEY gave us should/would have been taken with a grain of salt.  Ultimately, the only information we could truly trust would be our own intel, which might corroborate what China was saying.  Even then, they could start giving you good data until you trust it, then slap you with the bad data.  If this is a failure it falls directly on our own intelligence or lack of.  

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

https://www.foxnews.com/health/french-hospital-discovers-coronavirus-case-from-december-possible-patient-zero

 

French hospital discovers coronavirus case from December, country's possible 'patient zero': report

By Madeline Farber | Fox News

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A hospital in France discovered a coronavirus case from late December, weeks before French authorities confirmed the first cases of the novel virus in the country, according to a report.

Officials with Avicenne and Jean Verdier hospitals, located in the northern suburbs of Paris, recently re-tested old samples from pneumonia patients from December and January who were negative for the flu, discovering a man treated there in December was infected with COVID-19. At least 24 samples were tested.

CLICK HERE FOR COMPLETE  CORONAVIRUS COVERAGE

“Of the 24, we had one who was positive for COVID-19 on Dec. 27,” Yves Cohen, head of resuscitation at the Avicenne and Jean Verdier hospitals, told BFM-TV on Sunday, according to Reuters. The samples were re-tested multiple times to ensure the results were correct, he noted.

That said, it’s not yet clear if the man is now France’s “patient zero” — or the first known case of the novel virus in the country. The first three cases of the virus in France were confirmed on Jan. 24, according to Reuters.

“He was sick for 15 days and infected his two children, but not his wife, who works in a supermarket,” said Cohen, who added that the man survived.

[snafu]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

If course he does!! WTH do you expect a negotiator to say?  Exactly how would you negotiate with China? You are asshoe, now let's work a deal?  SMH

Now as to that February tweet... methinks what is "known" in February (or what information US Intelligence is trying to glean in February) may be very different than what will be known in August.  Check Trump's tone later as more information is being gathered and becomes available. He qualifies, but is most unhappy with China (I am pretty sure he wasn't happy with them in January as he closed the border to flights from China).

I would never consider Trump to be a diplomat, but as a negotiator who is being hamstrung by past deals? Yeah, I think he's done ok.

(You may want to take this to the China thread. ? )




 

Makes you wonder what the intel on the Wuhan virus was, doesn't it?

 

Pure speculation...

I think clear info was suppressed by China until after the phase 1 trade deal was signed with us. Our intelligence was blind, other than to know something was up and it might become something. Maybe our intelligence thought this would be like sars or mers and not become a huge impact on our citizens before burning out — those were the two most recent examples (other than swine flu, for which there’s a vaccine). I think we had our suspicions in January, but couldn’t get any real confirmation from the Chinese.

 

I believe that the infectiousness and h-t-h transmission was downplayed severely. And I believe China likely told everyone that they could pretty much contain the spread outside their borders. Our response was far from good early on, but eventually we found our footing. We lost a lot of lives because of slow info and the resulting slow response. There are other factors, but that’s not the subject here.

 

 

5 minutes ago, daz28 said:

Wouldn't we love to know, but there's a catch.  China is our adversary, so whatever information THEY gave us should/would have been taken with a grain of salt.  Ultimately, the only information we could truly trust would be our own intel, which might corroborate what China was saying.  Even then, they could start giving you good data until you trust it, then slap you with the bad data.  If this is a failure it falls directly on our own intelligence or lack of.  

 

I’m not sure we should have had to rely on our intelligence.

For sars, for mers, for swine flu and Ebola, there’s been a clear history of cooperation among nations. We tried, through the CDC, to ge boots on the ground in China. That request was made at the end of December.  We were rebuffed.  This would have supplanted the necessity for intelligence. And China’s failure to let us cooperate was a definite surprise.

 

 

[daz28]

13 minutes ago, snafu said:

I'm not sure we should have had to rely on our intelligence.

For sars, for mers, for swine flu and Ebola, there’s been a clear history of cooperation among nations. We tried, through the CDC, to ge boots on the ground in China. That request was made at the end of December.  We were rebuffed.  This would have supplanted the necessity for intelligence. And China’s failure to let us cooperate was a definite surprise.

 

 

A history of cooperation doesn't allow us to assume a future of cooperation.  That assumption alone is poor intelligence by itself.  If any nation were to try to infect us with germ warfare, it would be best done by the sneakiest means possible.  When they rebuffed us is probably when we wished we had better intelligence, because good intelligence doesn't get surprised.  

[snafu]

Just now, daz28 said:

A history of cooperation doesn't allow us to assume a future of cooperation.  That assumption alone is poor intelligence by itself.  If any nation were to try to infect us with germ warfare, it would be best done by the sneakiest means possible.  When they rebuffed us is probably when we wished we had better intelligence, because good intelligence doesn't get surprised.  

 

Are you saying that China purposefully infected our citizens with Covid-19? I don’t. 

But if they did purposefully infect us, do you think they’ve got a cure? I don’t.

But if they did have a cure, that would be the intelligence we should be focused on. As this point, I don’t really give a rat’s ass when and how this thing started. Maybe later, when we are trying to get reparations and make China pay for the trillions we had to spend to prop up our own citizens. Even then, good luck proving that this was anything more than a colossal mistake.

 

 

 

[SectionC3]

On 5/9/2020 at 12:22 PM, Chef Jim said:

Says the guy on a Bills message board. ?

 

I was waiting for that one.  

[SectionC3]

3 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

The media is STILL the enemy of the people.

 

With each passing day my confidence in this FACT grows.

 

 

What makes the media the enemy of the people?

[Deranged Rhino]

1 hour ago, shoshin said:

 

 

 

You can't believe anything Trump says but he does say stuff like the above. And many other examples of praise for Xi. 

 

 

Dates are important if you're going to launch that kind of analysis. 

 

Same with negotiating positions.

 

48 minutes ago, daz28 said:

Wouldn't we love to know, but there's a catch.  China is our adversary, so whatever information THEY gave us should/would have been taken with a grain of salt.  Ultimately, the only information we could truly trust would be our own intel, which might corroborate what China was saying.  Even then, they could start giving you good data until you trust it, then slap you with the bad data.  If this is a failure it falls directly on our own intelligence or lack of.  

 

24 minutes ago, daz28 said:

A history of cooperation doesn't allow us to assume a future of cooperation.  That assumption alone is poor intelligence by itself.  If any nation were to try to infect us with germ warfare, it would be best done by the sneakiest means possible.  When they rebuffed us is probably when we wished we had better intelligence, because good intelligence doesn't get surprised.  

 

Gee. If only we had an active HUMINT network in China. Sadly, we don't... why? 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spies-espionage.html

 

That's the result of HRC and 44's foreign policy. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, SectionC3 said:

 

What makes the media the enemy of the people?

 

The fact that they work as the mouthpiece of an increasingly untrustworthy unelected federal bureaucracy?