The Intentional Grounding Penalty that Wasn't

[Motorin']

This play has stuck in my head as one of another BS calls. To be fair, the worst part of the play is the atrocious play of Dawkins completely missing, like not even seeing the LB blitzing right past his left shoulder. How is Singletary the one to get called out for his blocking on this when Lee Smith and Dawkins let both of their men run right past them? Like, wtf is Dawkins doing? 

 

 

 

In any event, when the two edge rushers wrap Josh up, the ball is at the 39 yard line. He's clearing in the grasp and his forward progress is stop. The NFL rule book states "The Referee must blow the play dead as soon as the passer is clearly in the grasp and control of any tackler behind the line, and the passer's safety is in jeopardy.”

 

But Josh gets pushed back 4 yards in the grasp of 3 players, is falling to the ground vertically before the ball comes out. There's no world in which the interpretation of the NFL rules allows there defenders to grasp a QB, drive him backwards 12 feet, and that still be a live ball.

 

Josh in the grasp of 2 defenders at the 39 & 1/2:

 

Josh in the grasp of 3 defenders at the 43:

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Motorin'

[row_33]

is #26 doing what they call a Veronica in bullfighting?

 

but without the cape

 

i guess since it's the last game of the year they don't have to sit in film room for hours on end going over this endlessly

 

 

 

[billsrul120]

If he completes a pass for a big gain here and they called that he was down due to being in the grasp of defenders we would all be complaining about that.  Gotta take the good with the bad with Allen being so hard to take down.

 

Also the intentional grounding penalty doesn't really matter that much here he was going to get sacked for a 10+ yard loss anyway.

[row_33]

Just now, billsrul120 said:

If he completes a pass for a big gain here and they called that he was down due to being in the grasp of defenders we would all be complaining about that.  Gotta take the good with the bad with Allen being so hard to take down.

 

Also the intentional grounding penalty doesn't really matter that much here he was going to get sacked for a 10+ yard loss anyway.

 

there was a glimmer of hope that the penalty would be against the Texans for sending too many men to clobber Josh

 

[KD in CA]

I didn’t realize previous just how badly Singletary missed the block on that play.

[Motorin']

3 minutes ago, billsrul120 said:

If he completes a pass for a big gain here and they called that he was down due to being in the grasp of defenders we would all be complaining about that.  Gotta take the good with the bad with Allen being so hard to take down.

 

Also the intentional grounding penalty doesn't really matter that much here he was going to get sacked for a 10+ yard loss anyway.

 

It would have put the Bills in a 56 yard field goal range. But there's no way they allow Allen to complete that play without ruling him sacked is Singletary catches the ball and runs for 20 yards. 

2 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

I didn’t realize previous just how badly Singletary missed the block on that play.

 

How can you blame Singletary and not Dawkins? This is what our LT was doing on the play when the LB blitzed his gap:

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Motorin'

[Bangarang]

Did Cody Ford really get beat by a CB?

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, row_33 said:

is #26 doing what they call a Veronica in bullfighting?

 

but without the cape

 

i guess since it's the last game of the year they don't have to sit in film room for hours on end going over this endlessly

 

 

 

I think the OP is right about two things.   First, the play should have been blown dead.   Clearly.   Three guys tackling him and he's still up, but the rules are the rules.   

 

I hadn't watched it before, but he's right about Singletary.   The oline almost always takes rushers from the inside out, and the running back has to deal with the edge rusher - the linebacker or the DB.   SIngletary is on his way our to protect the edge when Knox and Dawkins just let the inside guys run free at the QB, and when he saw the problem he tried to stop and help, but he was too late.  Not his fault.  

[Motorin']

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think the OP is right about two things.   First, the play should have been blown dead.   Clearly.   Three guys tackling him and he's still up, but the rules are the rules.   

 

I hadn't watched it before, but he's right about Singletary.   The oline almost always takes rushers from the inside out, and the running back has to deal with the edge rusher - the linebacker or the DB.   SIngletary is on his way our to protect the edge when Knox and Dawkins just let the inside guys run free at the QB, and when he saw the problem he tried to stop and help, but he was too late.  Not his fault.  

 

That's my take exactly. It was Lee Smith though, not Knox getting beat around the edge. All 5 lineman try to block Watt at on point or another on the play, allowing 3 rushers a free lane to the QB.

[GoBills808]

Example A of paying too much attention to one armed Watt

[Mr. WEO]

11 minutes ago, billsrul120 said:

If he completes a pass for a big gain here and they called that he was down due to being in the grasp of defenders we would all be complaining about that.  Gotta take the good with the bad with Allen being so hard to take down.

 

Also the intentional grounding penalty doesn't really matter that much here he was going to get sacked for a 10+ yard loss anyway.

 

They can't claim he was down if they don't blow the whistle. 

 

But you're right,  it would have been an equally huge loss as a sack. 

 

Op should consider a lawsuit though, I guess.

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

We have four lineman whose heads look to be all looking at Watt. I agree with a lot of the sentiments on this board about the outcome  but that was epic failure on our part from start to finish. 

[ILBillsfan]

The next play was even worse with I think only three guys rushing and again Dawkins let's the guy just run right in on Josh free and untouched.  The line was average all game and then this series of events when your in range to tie the game I'm sure set many fans a fire.  Sad that Josh took a lot of heat on these plays when the pressure was instant.

[MJS]

No, I don't see it the same way. Clearly was intentional grounding to me.

[Motorin']

1 minute ago, ILBillsfan said:

The next play was even worse with I think only three guys rushing and again Dawkins let's the guy just run right in on Josh free and untouched.  The line was average all game and then this series of events when your in range to tie the game I'm sure set many fans a fire.  Sad that Josh took a lot of heat on these plays when the pressure was instant.

They both looked like that 4th down play in NE when 3 rushers came screaming in free and clear. How does that happen? 

1 minute ago, MJS said:

No, I don't see it the same way. Clearly was intentional grounding to me.

So if he completes the pass to Singletary and not Feleciano, it's a completion? 

[row_33]

5 minutes ago, ILBillsfan said:

The next play was even worse with I think only three guys rushing and again Dawkins let's the guy just run right in on Josh free and untouched.  The line was average all game and then this series of events when your in range to tie the game I'm sure set many fans a fire.  Sad that Josh took a lot of heat on these plays when the pressure was instant.

 

loss of 36 yards on two downs? 

[dave mcbride]

33 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

That's my take exactly. It was Lee Smith though, not Knox getting beat around the edge. All 5 lineman try to block Watt at on point or another on the play, allowing 3 rushers a free lane to the QB.

actually, the best thing that happened to the Bills given the situation was being driven back to their own 40 yard line. If Houston hadn't been so close, they likely would have punted and nailed the Bills much deeper in their own end. 

5 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

loss of 36 yards on two downs? 

Those 36 yards actually functioned as a bad punt by the Texans. Could have been a lot worse if Houston had actually punted on 4th down from midfield.

[Motorin']

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

actually, the best thing that happened to the Bills given the situation was being driven back to their own 40 yard line. If Houston hadn't been so close, they likely would have punted and nailed the Bills much deeper in their own end. 

 

In the bizarro world that was that game, that's actually true. 

[KD in CA]

43 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think the OP is right about two things.   First, the play should have been blown dead.   Clearly.   Three guys tackling him and he's still up, but the rules are the rules.   

 

I hadn't watched it before, but he's right about Singletary.   The oline almost always takes rushers from the inside out, and the running back has to deal with the edge rusher - the linebacker or the DB.   SIngletary is on his way our to protect the edge when Knox and Dawkins just let the inside guys run free at the QB, and when he saw the problem he tried to stop and help, but he was too late.  Not his fault.  

 

Thanks for the explanation....that makes sense.

[row_33]

and after hearing how the Bills are the GOAT 4th quarter team every minute the whole broadcast.

 

[Not at the table Karlos]

Allen can escape tacklers just like Watson. Let them play. Josh needs to make better decisions.

[brianthomas]

Any other QB & youre right, thats whistled down as in the grasp. But for players like Allen who are known to escape situations like this, the refs seem to wait longer to blow the play dead. Not wanting to stop the play too soon & be the cause of a great play being ended prematurely. Things like this we just have to live with imo & take the good with the bad.

 

As for Lee Smith, I know he's been praised for his leadership & his penchant for blocking but i really wasn't that impressed with him this year. Way too many penalties that killed drives over the year that you wouldn't want to see from a young TE, yet alone the veteran teacher. And even just in this Houston game, there were critical missed blocks on his part that hurt our offense, not to mention others over the course of the year & lapses in composure.

Sometimes those things just happen, nobodies perfect. But i expected more from him as this blocking TE guru. I personally wouldn't mind parting ways with both him & Kroft this off-season. Can't wait to see what Beane does

Edited January 10, 2020 by brianthomas

[Motorin']

Just now, Not at the table Karlos said:

Allen can escape tacklers just like Watson. Let them play. Josh needs to make better decisions.

16 feet. That's how far he was driven back while in the grasp of 3 defenders. 

 

And sure, he needs to make better decisions, which might be easier if his LT actually attempted to block the edge rusher on all plays. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

8 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

16 feet. That's how far he was driven back while in the grasp of 3 defenders. 

 

And sure, he needs to make better decisions, which might be easier if his LT actually attempted to block the edge rusher on all plays. 

And if he breaks those tackles and throws for a big play or touchdown?

[Pokebball]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I think the OP is right about two things.   First, the play should have been blown dead.   Clearly.   Three guys tackling him and he's still up, but the rules are the rules.   

 

I hadn't watched it before, but he's right about Singletary.   The oline almost always takes rushers from the inside out, and the running back has to deal with the edge rusher - the linebacker or the DB.   SIngletary is on his way our to protect the edge when Knox and Dawkins just let the inside guys run free at the QB, and when he saw the problem he tried to stop and help, but he was too late.  Not his fault.  

I've always said that there are 22 moving parts on each and every play.  There is never, ever just one guy, or even just a few guys.

[Motorin']

2 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

And if he breaks those tackles and throws for a big play or touchdown?

 

There's no world where the refs don't blow the play dead if he actually completes that pass. But even more important to the reason why the rule is put in place, it's to protect a QB from injury. Two men have him wrapped up and pushed back 8 feet. A third player launches himself at him and knocks him back another 4 feet. Allen is falling and vertical to the ground with 3 men wrapping him up before he even gets a pass off, after being driven backwards 4 yards by three men. 

 

The point of in the grasp is for the refs to blow the whistle to protect a QB from being injured after he's clearly wrapped up and his forward progress is stopped. 

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Motorin'

[Pokebball]

13 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Allen can escape tacklers just like Watson. Let them play. Josh needs to make better decisions.

All need to make better decisions (execute better).  And I'm not defending Josh in any way because he does need to make better decisions.  Lot's of misses in most every play.

[metzelaars_lives]

I'm done dwelling on this game.

[Motorin']

2 minutes ago, metzelaars_lives said:

I'm done dwelling on this game.

 

You're on to Cincinnati! 

[123719bwiqrb]

50 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

They both looked like that 4th down play in NE when 3 rushers came screaming in free and clear. How does that happen?

1) They are telegraphing the silent snap cadence.  Not sure why the G has to tell the C to snap it with a tap on the leg.

2) The Texans (and probably the Pats) had a fairly elaborate stunt on.  Run a draw play there...

[RoyBatty is alive]

 

This is an epically bad play on the part of the  Bills.  I am not sure who looked worse, Singletary, Lee Smith, Dawkins or Ford...all of them get beat or missed their assignments.

 

Texans rush only three, we have 7 guys to block  yet all three get to the QB, two almost totally unimpeded.

[Motorin']

2 minutes ago, ScotSHO said:

1) They are telegraphing the silent snap cadence.  Not sure why the G has to tell the C to snap it with a tap on the leg.

2) The Texans (and probably the Pats) had a fairly elaborate stunt on.  Run a draw play there...

 

Oh man, maybe Jimbo needs to teach Josh the virtues of the draw play? I can't remember one draw to Singletary this season?

1 minute ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

This is an epically bad play on the part of the  Bills.  I am not sure who looked worse, Singletary, Lee Smith, Dawkins or Ford...all of them get beat or missed their assignments.

 

Texans rush only three, we have 7 guys to block  yet all three get to the QB, two almost totally unimpeded.

 

I think Dawkins is the worst offender. He doesn't even see the OLB rushing past him. That's his man. Because he whiffs, Lee Smith is caught between two blocks, and is late getting to the CB rushing around the end. Singletary is put in the same bind. If Dawkins blocks his man, Singletary can double the CB, which is where he was heading before needing to try and block the LB.

 

Ford gets beat around the outside, but that's only bad because Josh runs backwards. If the two blocks are sustained on the left side, Josh can move left. Singletary probably chips the CB and moves into the flat for a big gain. 

[Utah John]

The rules apparently AREN'T the rules.  The second half kickoff was, by rule, fumbled in the end zone and recovered for a TD.  The correct call was made on the field, and it was overturned for no real reason at all.

[dbfla10]

The blocking on this play isn't dawkins fault at all. Its slide protection to the right. Every lineman, including the TE in this situation are to slide to the game to the right. Therefore Lee is on the LB and Singletary picks up the DB. This falls on Lee not knowing the protection.

This is why singletary misses the block he is expecting to block EOL (end of line) not a gap inside.

[transplantbillsfan]

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

Josh makes so many miraculous escapes that, by that definition, should have been blown dead as sacks and we would of course be upset about it.

 

The truly and absolutely most ridiculous call by the refs that I still haven't gotten over is that crackback personal foul called on Ford.

 

Absolute lunacy.

[RoyBatty is alive]

15 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Oh man, maybe Jimbo needs to teach Josh the virtues of the draw play? I can't remember one draw to Singletary this season?

 

I think Dawkins is the worst offender. He doesn't even see the OLB rushing past him. That's his man. Because he whiffs, Lee Smith is caught between two blocks, and is late getting to the CB rushing around the end. Singletary is put in the same bind. If Dawkins blocks his man, Singletary can double the CB, which is where he was heading before needing to try and block the LB.

 

Ford gets beat around the outside, but that's only bad because Josh runs backwards. If the two blocks are sustained on the left side, Josh can move left. Singletary probably chips the CB and moves into the flat for a big gain. 

 

It looks like the entire Offensive line is looking at Watt and Dawkins is oblivious to the OLB.  Singletary may have been the safety valve receiver.

Edited January 10, 2020 by RoyBatty is alive

[Motorin']

7 minutes ago, dbfla10 said:

The blocking on this play isn't dawkins fault at all. Its slide protection to the right. Every lineman, including the TE in this situation are to slide to the game to the right. Therefore Lee is on the LB and Singletary picks up the DB. This falls on Lee not knowing the protection.

This is why singletary misses the block he is expecting to block EOL (end of line) not a gap inside.

So his job is to block the air and not even look at the LB that could have tapped him on the ass as he rushes past? 

[Pbomb]

Oline was on point there

[dbfla10]

As 

3 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

So his job is to block the air and not even look at the LB that could have tapped him on the ass as he rushes past? 

as crazy as it sounds yes, his eyes aren't suppose to be looking at that gap. his eyes are anything to the right gap.. Notice singletarys angle, hes aiming at the outside hip of Lee and stops to get the LB. Also notice how Lee is the only lineman not to step to his right. 

Edited January 10, 2020 by dbfla10

[RoyBatty is alive]

16 minutes ago, dbfla10 said:

The blocking on this play isn't dawkins fault at all. Its slide protection to the right. Every lineman, including the TE in this situation are to slide to the game to the right. Therefore Lee is on the LB and Singletary picks up the DB. This falls on Lee not knowing the protection.

This is why singletary misses the block he is expecting to block EOL (end of line) not a gap inside.

 

That was during the loudest part of the game, i wouldn't be surprised if they had miscommunication as to blocking.

 

And even if what you say is correct, it is hard for me not to fault Dawkins, he has to be more aware of what is going on around him.  Watt isnt even close to him, for Dawkins not to sense or be aware of the huge gap and the defender blowing by him, even it wasnt his assignment, still is troubling to say the least.

Edited January 10, 2020 by RoyBatty is alive