Browns interview Brian Daboll for HC; have interest in pairing with Bills Asst. GM Joe Schoen

[Nihilarian]

2 hours ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

I really do think we see the offense take a big step forward for two main reasons.

First, personnel will be added.

Second, continuity under what has been described as a complex playbook that changes week to week based off opponents weaknesses. 
I also like Daboll back for Josh. This will be Josh’s third season under the same system terms and will be big for him moving forward.  Basically this is Josh’s third year of playing against NFL caliber defenses verses college where he played with and against below average college talent consistently. 
Josh will have a solid foundation moving forward after this third season with Daboll. My hope is our offense looks so good a team has to hire Daboll as it’s HC. McDermott finds a good OC and the offense doesn’t skip a beat. 

While you make some key points for keeping Daboll. 

 

I'm of the frame of mind that adding better talent to the O line, receiver corps and even adding another top RB will only prove to show exactly how lame this man is as an OC. Throwing the ball over 30 times a game with a perfectly good star RB in the backfield is what losing teams do all the time. They get behind in points they throw, they get the lead they throw...

 

Perhaps Allen will take a huge leap forward in his development this off season and Daboll's passing schemes, game plans will work to perfection. Again, I'm thinking no. Simply because this years schedule is much, much more difficult and they will be no more barely beating bad teams like there was this season. 

 

My thoughts are the Bills could have the Titans O line, RB Derreck Henry and Daboll will still be trying to prove he is the best passing coordinator in the league. It's what he did against the Texans in knowing he had a job interview the next day. IMO

 

The first red flare going up that Daboll has no clue was (first) when the team started Nathan Peterman over Josh Allen in 2018 and (second) asking Peterman to throw passes he was literally incapable of making. At some point this season as either Frank Gore hit that proverbial wall later in the season or was somehow injured and didn't say anything. Yet, kept playing him up until the last game.

 

Its the offensive coordinators job to make the offense work with the players on the roster and good coaches will do this. Kelvin Benjamin was flushed, both WR Zay Jones, WR Robert Foster while having decent seasons last year were flushed this season. Didn't utilize WR Duke Williams until the last two games.

 

The Buffalo Bills offensive player starting cast greatly improved in 2019 over 2018 (new RT, new RG, new highest paid in the league center, new LG. New RBs, three. New TE's along with some top free agent WRs (NE wanted Beasley) and O line players. Basically 9 of 11 new starters on offense. It doesn't take a full season to gain continuity on offense as that is what the pre season and training camp are for...

 

Yet the Bills offensive line grade only went from 27th to 24th under this OC. The lack of discipline with Buffalo being 24th in penalties with the O line at the most inopportune times and again were 27th in 2018. Everything falls on the offensive coordinator to make the offense work in unison and this man falls on his face. 

 

With a new, young future superstar at RB that averaged 5.1 yards per carry this season the run game stayed about the same as 2018, save rushing TDs was worse this year 11 in 2018, 18 in 2019. (Derrick Henry averaged 5.1 yards per carry this season too). 

 

2018 Bills passing offense 28 attempts, 31st in yards, 32nd in TDs. 2019 Bills passing offense 24th in attempts, 26th in yards, 24th in TDs. 

 

My only hope is that Josh Allen survives this next season and the GM realizes things need to change. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Nihilarian

[eball]

@Nihilarian well you're certainly a ray of sunshine!

 

If Dawson's Creek doesn't have stone for hands half of the time and the WRs don't drop an alarmingly high rate of catchable passes, the Bills' offensive numbers would have been significantly better.  I think the answer to the Bills' offense lies in three words:  enhanced WR talent.  They also need a capable complement to Singletary.  I'm not nearly as down on Daboll as you are.  I believe Knox will work on his hands all offseason and Beane will find the missing pieces.

 

Everyone is talking about how hard the schedule will be -- the Bills will play SIX games against playoff teams (counting the Pats*** twice), three at home and three on the road.

 

Now is not the time to bemoan the fact that the Bills will return their coaching staff mostly intact for the third straight season.  We should expect everyone to be better next year than they were this year.  McD's mantra is to get better every day.  Why would we not think Daboll follows that trajectory as well?

[atlbillsfan1975]

@Nihilarian there is a lot to unpack there. I appreciate your thoughts and hard work.

First let me say there is zero excuses for starting Peterman.?

You can look back at posts by me and see I have not been the strongest supporter of Daboll. I was the poster who suggested that maybe a move to the box for Brian would benefit the offense. 
I think you are discounting some major things. The OL was an entirely new unit basically with only Dawkins being a returning starter. Having played Oline I can tell you that so much of its performance hinges on the 5 pieces acting as one. I think this group will improve more this next season.

To your point about adding more pieces only masking the problem of an inferior OC, I would say, ‘what else are the Bills suppose to do with $90m and 9 draft picks?’. Improvements are needed they will always be needed. I don’t think any team has exactly the same 46 active guys for two years in a row, ever.  Those 3-4 players added to the offense could make all the difference. 
Daboll’s playbook is big, it’s been called the most complicated, by Jon Brown. Brown has been on three different teams. Daboll wants to pull from a large playbook so he can scheme to the opponents weaknesses. 
I like Daboll back for this next year because I really believe Josh will benefit from it. I think this next season the game will slow down even more for Josh and he will feel more comfortable and trust his playmakers. My two cents. 

[Nihilarian]

I didn't purposely want to rain on anybody's parade as its just how I see things for the upcoming season.

 

The AFC East Division. The Miami Dolphins should be significantly better with all those draft picks and cap space. If they can go 5-11 with a gutted team, with a has been at QB that beat the Patriots IN New England with home field on the line. All I can say is watch out in 2020. The NY Jets should be better and the Patriots didn't lose anyone besides their ST coach. 

 

The Bills are going to have a very tough time in 2020. Chiefs, Chargers, Rams, Seahawks, Steelers, Cards, Broncos, Raiders, 49ers, Titans. Besides 2x Dolphins, Patriots, Jets.

 

Now the 2019 Buffalo Bills beat the Titans in week five 7-14 with Marcus Mariota at QB and four missed field goals, The Titans changed kickers and their QB. If they faced them now that win is a big question.

 

The 2019 Bills should have been crushing bad teams like the Bengals, Dolphins Jets. That first Jets game was a lucky win with the Bills playing like crap having four turnovers and pulling out of a 16 point deficit to win 17-16. The Bills had some outstanding wins against decent teams like the Cowboys, Steelers. And yet the Bills didn't face Big Ben as they faced a 3rd string QB named Duck Hodges. The Broncos was another team starting a bad QB in Brandon Allen with Flacco out and Drew Lock not starting yet. Lock went 4-1 as a starter.

 

I simply don't see easy wins in 2020 for the Buffalo Bills. The Bills were incredibly lucky in 2019 in who they played and also with injuries as they had very few serious injuries that landed players on IR. 

 

With all the upgrades the Bills acquired last off season the Bills offense should have taken a huge leap forward from 2018 to 2019. While they did go from 30th in points, yards to 23rd in points, 24th in yards, those are simply not good playoff team numbers for an offense. 

 

 

Simply by utilizing RB Devin Singletary more often in games while limiting the passing the Bills should/could have for sure beaten the Browns and perhaps even the Patriots, Ravens. While the Bills had a decent run game at times. They were bad in scoring TDs by the RBs at 18th. Their run game also failed them at critical times. Daboll needed to find a way to make that run game work in any situation. As tricky as he was in the passing game he should have been more innovative in the run game.

 

Have a look at the 49ers, Vikings game to see San Fran ran the ball 47 times for 186 yards and 2 TDs. Meanwhile Jimmy G went 11 of 19 for 131 yards and 1 TD, 1 INT. We all know what the Titans did to the 14-2 Ravens by running the ball down their throats 217 yards on 37 carries and not allowing that Baltimore cover zero Blitz to get after Tannehill like they did against Allen. 

 

As good as that 49er defense was all of 2019, their offense was even better as they were a top four offense. Mostly because of their run game and they didn't have a 1000 yard rusher either. Plus, they had 17 players on injured reserve...

 

BTW, Josh Allen threw for 3089 yards with 20 TDs, 9 INTs and 9 rushing TDs with 510 yards rushing. I don't see Allen as the biggest issue with the offense. Its the lack of called run plays for the second year. The lack of discipline with all the penalties for the second year. Last season the Bills had an excuse for not blowing people off the line on offense with such a bad line. 

 

Bottom line: Josh Allen had two areas in that he wasn't very good, deep ball completion percentage at around 25% and under pressure completion 17.5%. So, stop asking him to throw deep and asking him to throw under great duress. Play action completion percentage 63.6, and clean pocket completion percentage 67.0%. Take the load off the QB to carry the offense and run the darn ball more. 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

16 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

 

I agree with Mike Catalana. Oh and he needs a new RT too. Doesn't mean Daboll is great. But I don't believe he is anywhere close to the main issue and I think a change now would be worse for Josh Allen than continuity. Daboll is on the hot seat for next year. And that is kind of how it should be. But first of all it is on Beane (who admitted in his end of season presser that he did a lousy job with the offensive talent in 2018 and still needs to do a better job than he did in 2019) to get him some more talent. 

[Coach Tuesday]

29 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

I didn't purposely want to rain on anybody's parade as its just how I see things for the upcoming season.

 

They need playmakers, 2-3 more of them, it's that simple.  McD has built his program his way, now he has to have the courage to coach a team with some star players on it.  It made *some* sense to build the team with vets in each position group, at the expense of talent, in order to instill a winning culture.  I didn't love it but it was rational. Now his young guys have been to the playoffs and that approach needs to move aside in the interest of ADDING TALENT.  Yes next year's schedule is tough but they're fortunate to have coaching continuity, a ton of cap room, and a bitter taste in their mouths.  Add a pass rusher, some explosive skill on offense, God forbid an actual NFL tight end - and why the hell not us for a change?

[GoBills808]

I don't put a ton of stock like ^^^comments in SOS before free agency, draft so whatever...but I'll say that while we will in all likelihood face a stronger schedule just due to regression to mean, it's not like the Bills were winning games in a statistically untenable manner...they scored exactly ZERO touchdowns on defense (one safety) and one return TD for a total of 9 points- for comparison the Patriots scored 37 points off fumbles, interceptions, and safeties...Bills were one of six teams to score zero defensive TDs. Among those teams only two made the playoffs (Green Bay and Buffalo) and the rest were in competition for mediocre-to-worst-teams-ever in Arizona/Cincy/Washington/LAC.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

30 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't put a ton of stock like ^^^comments in SOS before free agency, draft so whatever...but I'll say that while we will in all likelihood face a stronger schedule just due to regression to mean, it's not like the Bills were winning games in a statistically untenable manner...they scored exactly ZERO touchdowns on defense (one safety) and one return TD for a total of 9 points- for comparison the Patriots scored 37 points off fumbles, interceptions, and safeties...Bills were one of six teams to score zero defensive TDs. Among those teams only two made the playoffs (Green Bay and Buffalo) and the rest were in competition for mediocre-to-worst-teams-ever in Arizona/Cincy/Washington/LAC.

 

 

 

And that is fair but it is still safe to assume next year's schedule will be tougher than this one. As I have said elsewhere we played 7 games against new Head Coaches this year plus 1 against an interim (and most of those games were earlier in the season) I think all the teams we play next year have their coach back. This year's schedule was unusually favourable. But you are right. The Bills were not winning in unusual ways. They were playing really good defense and just doing enough on offense. It wasn't flukey as such. 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And that is fair but it is still safe to assume next year's schedule will be tougher than this one. As I have said elsewhere we played 7 games against new Head Coaches this year plus 1 against an interim (and most of those games were earlier in the season) I think all the teams we play next year have their coach back. This year's schedule was unusually favourable. But you are right. The Bills were not winning in unusual ways. They were playing really good defense and just doing enough on offense. It wasn't flukey as such. 

Yup which is why I mentioned Patriots...37 points is a BIG number over a 16 game season. That's why I was so critical of the analytics that kept putting the Patriots and their defense in particular on such a pedestal, a decent percentage (relatively speaking) of their points were scored in statistically improbable fashion...that's not even counting the fluke punt block return that was the eventual difference in our first meeting...in retrospect (even tho I suspected this was the case earlier) it's not hard to see why they were a flawed team even when they were being talked about as 'best defense ever' and a lock for the AFCCG/SB...scoring a lot of defensive and special teams touchdowns is NOT sustainable

[reddogblitz]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Yup which is why I mentioned Patriots...37 points is a BIG number over a 16 game season. That's why I was so critical of the analytics that kept putting the Patriots and their defense in particular on such a pedestal, a decent percentage (relatively speaking) of their points were scored in statistically improbable fashion...that's not even counting the fluke punt block return that was the eventual difference in our first meeting...in retrospect (even tho I suspected this was the case earlier) it's not hard to see why they were a flawed team even when they were being talked about as 'best defense ever' and a lock for the AFCCG/SB...scoring a lot of defensive and special teams touchdowns is NOT sustainable

 

How was it a fluke?  It was a combination great play by Cheats** guy and one of our guys not blocking him (#42 whoever that is).  Kicking Teams is a very important part of the game where execution is as critical as any other play.

 

Marv understood the importance of kicking team's play.  Seems McDermott does not.  A HUGE area for improvement in 2020.

[GoBills808]

Just now, reddogblitz said:

 

How was it a fluke?  It was a combination great play by Cheats** guy and one of our guys not blocking him (#42 whoever that is).  Kicking Teams is a very important part of the game where execution is as critical as any other play.

 

Marv understood the importance of kicking team's play.  Seems McDermott does not.  A HUGE area for improvement in 2020.

Blocking the kick wasn't a fluke, but statistically recovering a fumble/INT/blocked kick and returning it for a touchdown is a function of luck...doesn't have anything to do with skill or preparation etc

[reddogblitz]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Blocking the kick wasn't a fluke, but statistically recovering a fumble/INT/blocked kick and returning it for a touchdown is a function of luck...doesn't have anything to do with skill or preparation etc

 

"Chance favors the prepared mind." -- Louis Pasteur

Edited January 15, 2020 by reddogblitz

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

"Chance favors the prepared mind." -- Louis Pasteur

 

Louis was  pretty good linebacker. Look it up

Fumble recoveries and turnovers in general are primarily a function of chance- http://www.footballperspective.com/2013-fumble-recovery-data-has-jets-cowboys-at-extremes/

 

Also- http://harvardsportsanalysis.org/2014/10/how-random-are-turnovers/

 

[reddogblitz]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Fumble recoveries and turnovers in general are primarily a function of chance- http://www.footballperspective.com/2013-fumble-recovery-data-has-jets-cowboys-at-extremes/

 

Also- http://harvardsportsanalysis.org/2014/10/how-random-are-turnovers/

 

 

I get what you're saying.  But at the same time, if the Cheats*** ST coach and player was not prepared he would have ZERO percent chance of getting a TD on that play.  That's why I said what I said about Louis.

[3rdand12]

On 1/12/2020 at 11:24 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I have similar mixed feelings.  At times Daboll calls very well defined and effective plays and we just don’t execute.  At other times it doesn’t seem like the right call for the right time in the game.  It doesn’t flow properly.  I’ve said this elsewhere it reminds me of Vizinni in The Princess Bride (the Iocaine powder scene).  We’re aligned about the “best players” thing.  It has a time and place - like when he manages to slip DDawk or Lee Smith uncovered into the end zone for a TD - but out wide, in a key game situation - Errrrp!

 

Since we’ve got him another year, I can only hope that McDermott is sincere about the continuous improvement mindset and that part of that will involve some serious self-scouting on the part of our offense.

 

 

 

what plays do you call when your players are not executing i wonder?

 at the very least i think Allens and the O line nee the continuity one more season.
By then McBeanes should have stabilised the Offense generally speaking. at least the roster side of things 

Edited January 15, 2020 by 3rdand12

[3rdand12]

12 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

While you make some key points for keeping Daboll. 

 

I'm of the frame of mind that adding better talent to the O line, receiver corps and even adding another top RB will only prove to show exactly how lame this man is as an OC. Throwing the ball over 30 times a game with a perfectly good star RB in the backfield is what losing teams do all the time. They get behind in points they throw, they get the lead they throw...

 

Perhaps Allen will take a huge leap forward in his development this off season and Daboll's passing schemes, game plans will work to perfection. Again, I'm thinking no. Simply because this years schedule is much, much more difficult and they will be no more barely beating bad teams like there was this season. 

 

My thoughts are the Bills could have the Titans O line, RB Derreck Henry and Daboll will still be trying to prove he is the best passing coordinator in the league. It's what he did against the Texans in knowing he had a job interview the next day. IMO

 

The first red flare going up that Daboll has no clue was (first) when the team started Nathan Peterman over Josh Allen in 2018 and (second) asking Peterman to throw passes he was literally incapable of making. At some point this season as either Frank Gore hit that proverbial wall later in the season or was somehow injured and didn't say anything. Yet, kept playing him up until the last game.

 

Its the offensive coordinators job to make the offense work with the players on the roster and good coaches will do this. Kelvin Benjamin was flushed, both WR Zay Jones, WR Robert Foster while having decent seasons last year were flushed this season. Didn't utilize WR Duke Williams until the last two games.

 

The Buffalo Bills offensive player starting cast greatly improved in 2019 over 2018 (new RT, new RG, new highest paid in the league center, new LG. New RBs, three. New TE's along with some top free agent WRs (NE wanted Beasley) and O line players. Basically 9 of 11 new starters on offense. It doesn't take a full season to gain continuity on offense as that is what the pre season and training camp are for...

 

Yet the Bills offensive line grade only went from 27th to 24th under this OC. The lack of discipline with Buffalo being 24th in penalties with the O line at the most inopportune times and again were 27th in 2018. Everything falls on the offensive coordinator to make the offense work in unison and this man falls on his face. 

 

With a new, young future superstar at RB that averaged 5.1 yards per carry this season the run game stayed about the same as 2018, save rushing TDs was worse this year 11 in 2018, 18 in 2019. (Derrick Henry averaged 5.1 yards per carry this season too). 

 

2018 Bills passing offense 28 attempts, 31st in yards, 32nd in TDs. 2019 Bills passing offense 24th in attempts, 26th in yards, 24th in TDs. 

 

My only hope is that Josh Allen survives this next season and the GM realizes things need to change. 

harsh.
Coming back to the NFl form the College ranks as National Champs has likely ingrained some methods of developing Josh and the newish team that do not fit " just win todays game" philosophies.

 The whole thing with jets sweeps in the beginning of the season drove me nuts.
Throwing deep early in the game and no catches.
Methods are always questionable. But Daboll was not alone in that room as to how Buffalo Offense was handled. 
Bills offense sucked wind for many reasons, and playcalling was one of them , at times.
 But execution was more the issue from where i stood.
Glad to have Daboll back, expect improvement across the board on Offense this year as long as Josh improves his ball protection and reading, and trusting what he sees.
 

25 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

"Chance favors the prepared mind." -- Louis Pasteur

f'n awesome

[BillsFan4]

I find it funny seeing Browns fans saying (about the Stefanski hire) “well, at least it wasn’t Daboll”... 

 

Looking at their resumes, Daboll has a heck of a lot more experience than Stefanski. 

 

Quote

Brian Daboll As coach:
William & Mary (1997) Restrictive earnings coach Michigan State (1998–1999) Graduate assistant New England Patriots (2000–2001) Defensive coaching assistant New England Patriots (2002–2006) Wide receivers coach New York Jets (2007–2008) Quarterbacks coach Cleveland Browns (2009–2010) Offensive coordinator Miami Dolphins (2011) Offensive coordinator Kansas City Chiefs (2012) Offensive coordinator New England Patriots (2013) Offensive assistant New England Patriots (2014–2016) Tight ends coach Alabama (2017) Co-Offensive coordinator & quarterbacks coach Buffalo Bills (2018–present) Offensive coordinator
Career highlights and awards
5× Super Bowl champion (XXXVI, XXXVIII, XXXIX, XLIX, LI) CFP national champion (2017)

 

Quote

Kevin Stefanski As coach:
Penn (2005) Assistant director of football operations Minnesota Vikings (2006–2008) Assistant to the head coach Minnesota Vikings (2009–2013) Assistant quarterbacks coach Minnesota Vikings (2014–2015) Tight ends coach Minnesota Vikings (2016) Running backs coach Minnesota Vikings (2017–2018) Quarterbacks coach Minnesota Vikings (2018) Interim offensive coordinator Minnesota Vikings (2019) Offensive coordinator Cleveland Browns (2020–present) Head coach
Career highlights and awards
First Team All-Ivy League (2002)

 

He’s been coaching longer, has experience coaching both sides of the ball, has been a coordinator 7 years (vs. barely over 1yr for Stefanski, where he had Kubiak helping him during games and Dennison doing the game plans). Plus he has worked in multiple NFL organizations, has been around some of the best coaches in football + championship caliber programs, and has 5x Super Bowl rings and a National championship.

 

Im not sure I’d be bragging about landing Stefanski vs Daboll if I were a Browns fan. It’s not like he was some hot head coaching candidate either (the browns are the only NFL team to ever interview him for a HC position afaik. Carolina was scheduled to interview him this year but never did) 

Edited January 15, 2020 by BillsFan4

[BillsVet]

4 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

They need playmakers, 2-3 more of them, it's that simple.  McD has built his program his way, now he has to have the courage to coach a team with some star players on it.  It made *some* sense to build the team with vets in each position group, at the expense of talent, in order to instill a winning culture.  I didn't love it but it was rational. Now his young guys have been to the playoffs and that approach needs to move aside in the interest of ADDING TALENT.  Yes next year's schedule is tough but they're fortunate to have coaching continuity, a ton of cap room, and a bitter taste in their mouths.  Add a pass rusher, some explosive skill on offense, God forbid an actual NFL tight end - and why the hell not us for a change?

 

Yep.  We can debate who the Bills will sign, who they'll draft, coaches, whatever for 2020.  This entire off-season comes down to whether McD acknowledges that he has to make changes in his approach to the game.  

[transplantbillsfan]

16 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

While you make some key points for keeping Daboll. 

 

I'm of the frame of mind that adding better talent to the O line, receiver corps and even adding another top RB will only prove to show exactly how lame this man is as an OC. Throwing the ball over 30 times a game with a perfectly good star RB in the backfield is what losing teams do all the time. They get behind in points they throw, they get the lead they throw...

 

Agreed we should have been giving it to Singletary more. But I really also think load management and his youth may have come into play in that decision.

 

I don't know for sure, obviously. We get more clued in next year.

 

16 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

 

Perhaps Allen will take a huge leap forward in his development this off season and Daboll's passing schemes, game plans will work to perfection. Again, I'm thinking no. Simply because this years schedule is much, much more difficult and they will be no more barely beating bad teams like there was this season. 

 

Please stop.

 

I'm so tired of trying to project schedules from year to year. Next year could be as easy as this year. Or it could be a little harder. Or it could be a lot harder.

 

Everyone stop with this projecting.

 

Injuries happen. Teams take steps back. It happens every single year.

 

Yeah, the schedule might be a little harder... or it might be easier... we also SHOULD (and the same rules I just mentioned apply here, because who knows? We could be 6-10 next year) be a better and more experienced team.

 

I think we take a step forward offensively next season, not back.

 

16 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

 

My thoughts are the Bills could have the Titans O line, RB Derreck Henry and Daboll will still be trying to prove he is the best passing coordinator in the league. It's what he did against the Texans in knowing he had a job interview the next day. IMO

 

I don't think you watched the Bills all season if you think Daboll's primary prerogative was to run a pass happy offense.

 

16 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

 

The first red flare going up that Daboll has no clue was (first) when the team started Nathan Peterman over Josh Allen in 2018 and (second) asking Peterman to throw passes he was literally incapable of making. At some point this season as either Frank Gore hit that proverbial wall later in the season or was somehow injured and didn't say anything. Yet, kept playing him up until the last game.

 

The Peterman debacle was a mistake, but are you putting that on Daboll? Pretty sure that was McDermott. And even there I don't blame McDermott because I understand the reasoning for wanting Allen on the bench to start the year, I'm still just flabbergasted that we didn't have a better QB on our roster.

 

16 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

 

Its the offensive coordinators job to make the offense work with the players on the roster and good coaches will do this. Kelvin Benjamin was flushed, both WR Zay Jones, WR Robert Foster while having decent seasons last year were flushed this season. Didn't utilize WR Duke Williams until the last two games.

 

Benjamin, Zay, and (unfortunately) Foster are useless... whether due to being fat and unmotivated and entitled, unable to catch, or being an apparent head case... can't blame Daboll for those guys.

 

Agreed about Duke. However, Daboll is clearly married to his system, not the talent.

 

The test will be next season how he's adjusted the system to incorporate Duke or whichever WR we get in FA or the draft.

 

16 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

 

The Buffalo Bills offensive player starting cast greatly improved in 2019 over 2018 (new RT, new RG, new highest paid in the league center, new LG. New RBs, three. New TE's along with some top free agent WRs (NE wanted Beasley) and O line players. Basically 9 of 11 new starters on offense. It doesn't take a full season to gain continuity on offense as that is what the pre season and training camp are for...

 

Well. Too many drops (Knox & Beasley) and missed assignments like blocks in the Texans game.

 

Another year... apparently a sports psychologist to help with these big game moments... more experienced players in the 2nd year of the same offense is likely to help.

 

16 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

 

Yet the Bills offensive line grade only went from 27th to 24th under this OC. The lack of discipline with Buffalo being 24th in penalties with the O line at the most inopportune times and again were 27th in 2018. Everything falls on the offensive coordinator to make the offense work in unison and this man falls on his face. 

 

With a new, young future superstar at RB that averaged 5.1 yards per carry this season the run game stayed about the same as 2018, save rushing TDs was worse this year 11 in 2018, 18 in 2019. (Derrick Henry averaged 5.1 yards per carry this season too). 

 

2018 Bills passing offense 28 attempts, 31st in yards, 32nd in TDs. 2019 Bills passing offense 24th in attempts, 26th in yards, 24th in TDs. 

 

My only hope is that Josh Allen survives this next season and the GM realizes things need to change. 

 

Are you assuming nothing else changes on offense?

 

As for OLs... NFL OLs say time and time again the more they play with each other, the better they get.

 

 

 

But hey... you go ahead and keep up the negativity to try to keep us grounded!

5 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

They need playmakers, 2-3 more of them, it's that simple.  McD has built his program his way, now he has to have the courage to coach a team with some star players on it.  It made *some* sense to build the team with vets in each position group, at the expense of talent, in order to instill a winning culture.  I didn't love it but it was rational. Now his young guys have been to the playoffs and that approach needs to move aside in the interest of ADDING TALENT.  Yes next year's schedule is tough but they're fortunate to have coaching continuity, a ton of cap room, and a bitter taste in their mouths.  Add a pass rusher, some explosive skill on offense, God forbid an actual NFL tight end - and why the hell not us for a change?

 

I don't think 2-3 more. We need a WR and depth at RB.

 

Knox just needs the offseason to work. I actually think he's going to be a special TE. And Sweeney will be a good #2.

[reddogblitz]

30 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I don't think you watched the Bills all season if you think Daboll's primary prerogative was to run a pass happy offense.

 

I guess I didn't watch games either. For large parts of the season Daboll seemed hell bent on passing on every play. 41 passes and 14 runs in a wind storm (Eagles) and 46 passes vs 13 handoffs in wild card game among others makes me think so.  Our best guy averaging 5 yards per gets 13 carries.

 

If we did sign Henry, he'd probably get about 12 carries per game.  Take a shower at the end of the third quarter.

Edited January 15, 2020 by reddogblitz

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

what plays do you call when your players are not executing i wonder?

 

This is a "chicken and egg" question.  Great offensive coordinators call plays that their players are capable of executing.  So yes, it's fair to point a finger at the players and say "better execution is needed".  But when certain tendencies are noted where plays don't work, and certain tendencies where plays work, it's also fair to ask whether plays that worked to the strengths of the players and enabled them to execute were called consistently.

 

It's not as though the Bills have been consistently unable to execute on every play.  We aren't the #8 team in the league for rushing yards (#6 for attempts) because we can't execute.

 

Quote

 at the very least i think Allens and the O line nee the continuity one more season.
By then McBeanes should have stabilised the Offense generally speaking. at least the roster side of things 

 

Continuity has its good points, but one can't effect change by keeping everything the same.  So since Daboll will evidently be the same, and many of the core players will be the same, perhaps a slightly different approach ny Daboll would be appropriate.

[Nihilarian]

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Agreed we should have been giving it to Singletary more. But I really also think load management and his youth may have come into play in that decision.

 

I don't know for sure, obviously. We get more clued in next year.

 

I don't think you watched the Bills all season if you think Daboll's primary prerogative was to run a pass happy offense.

 

To me this is what was most maddening to watch the Bills run all over the Washington Redskins 39 rushes for 122 yards, 2 TDs and passing only 20 times in week 9. Only to watch Dr Jekyll revert to Mr Hyde (Daboll) against the Browns the next week with only 20 rushes and 41 passes! This fed right into the pass rush leader Myles Garrett at that time. 

 

Against Denver, who had a top 5 defense against the run in week 12 and the Bills ran it 47 times for 244 yards on them, meanwhile Allen only threw 25 times, 2TDs, in INT for a 92.9 rate.

 

Against Dallas the next week Bills 34 rushes for 124 yards, 1 TD and Allen 25 passes. Allen went 19 of 24 for 231, 1 TD with a rating of 120.7. 

 

Brilliant right?

 

Now Baltimore comes to town week 14 and Daboll reverts again by asking Allen to throw 39 times against that cover zero blitz...which, btw, Daboll had no answer for! Allen sacked 6 times with a rating of 62.6. NOW, don't tell me the Ravens were stacking the box or the run game wasn't working, 17 carries for 89 yards a 5.2 YPC avg. 

 

I've made mention of this in several threads, the Bills offense in the first series of the second half handed the ball to Singletary SIX straight times for two first downs and Allen ran for another the result of that series was a FG. Then, inexplicably, the Bills go back to the pass, Allen sacked on 3rd down and 10, Punt. This theme over and over the rest of the game. And no, Singletary was not hurt as he had a 38 yard burst off right guard in the fourth quarter and this series ended in a passing TD. 

 

Should the Bills have trouble running the ball occasionally Daboll would simply stop calling for runs and go pass happy. Instead of attempting to figure out a way to get the run game working, he gives up on it. 

 

Pittsburgh was another game Bills 38 rushes vs 25 passes with a Bills win 17-10.

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

The Peterman debacle was a mistake, but are you putting that on Daboll? Pretty sure that was McDermott. And even there I don't blame McDermott because I understand the reasoning for wanting Allen on the bench to start the year, I'm still just flabbergasted that we didn't have a better QB on our roster.

 

 

Benjamin, Zay, and (unfortunately) Foster are useless... whether due to being fat and unmotivated and entitled, unable to catch, or being an apparent head case... can't blame Daboll for those guys.

 

Agreed about Duke. However, Daboll is clearly married to his system, not the talent.

 

The test will be next season how he's adjusted the system to incorporate Duke or whichever WR we get in FA or the draft.

In bringing up Peterman starting the season. The kid couldn't make certain throws that were called. Now the Bills OC doesn't see this when most Bills fans do see it? This isn't at all on McD, because if the OC goes to the HC and tells him a player is unacceptable to start, he doesn't/shouldn't start! 

 

I also brought up Benjamin because its the OC's responsibility to watch, see and understand what a player can and cannot do in practice. If the guy can't catch for crap he shouldn't be on the field, period! As with Knox, tell him to work with the Juggs until he gets better or he doesn't play. Both Zay Jones and Robert Foster regressed under Daboll and his schemes.

 

You have a QB with the strongest arm in the NFL and yet can't hit a deep ball to save his life in 2019. Yet, was doing better in 2018 with the same players. Foster was injured early the season and yet Allen over threw him and Brown almost every deep throw. If a coach sees that a play isn't working you keep working it until it works to perfection.

 

Frank Gore either hit the wall or was injured later on this season and yet he kept playing, why? 

 

This offensive coordinator simply can't recognize what he has in player talent at times and simply can't coach players up to improve for some reason. We see Allen improving because he is working like an animal on his own with a very high level work ethic.Other players who don't have Allen's work ethic fall by the wayside. 

 

Bills fans clamoring for WR Duke Williams all season and he finally gets a nod the last two games when clearly he hasn't been practicing with the first team all season. Of course he isn't going to look as special as he is without more practice with the first team. 

 

My point here is I think Daboll is very limited in many ways as an OC. Okay, he has some ability to sometimes call a good game and be a little innovative in the passing game. In my view he simply isn't good enough...never has been... and in all probability never will be. The players love him, big deal. They loved Dick Jauron and Chan Gailey too. 

[transplantbillsfan]

 

The Bills are a team full of youth.

 

And we will get younger in the offseason probably, since I believe that Beane is going to use our CAP space more to resign our own guys like Tre and Milano than to go out and make big splashes.

 

Clear we're building through the draft, and there's a young core already in Buffalo.

 

Continuity is a good thing.

 

It's why I also expect McDermott is thinking ahead to the end of next year when Daboll and perhaps Frazier leave for Head Coaching positions (possibly) and might be trying to groom positional coaches beneath them in order to maintain that continuity.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

 

In reference to the above tweet re: Baltimore. How stupid do all the people who downgraded Orlando Brown because he had a bad combine feel right now? I stuck to my guns. His tape was late 1st rounder tape. Baltimore has bookend tackles. 

[Coach Tuesday]

58 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

In reference to the above tweet re: Baltimore. How stupid do all the people who downgraded Orlando Brown because he had a bad combine feel right now? I stuck to my guns. His tape was late 1st rounder tape. Baltimore has bookend tackles. 

 

I guess - but he showed up pretty out of shape, he's a bit of a headcase already, and his dad was a MAJOR headcase as Baltimore well knows... 

[GunnerBill]

59 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

I guess - but he showed up pretty out of shape, he's a bit of a headcase already, and his dad was a MAJOR headcase as Baltimore well knows... 

 

But put him out there on Sunday and he can block. 

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But put him out there on Sunday and he can block. 

I think Cody Ford is also going to be a very good player just maybe not at Right Tackle.

 

If he ends up being a dominant OG....it was still a excellent pick

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I think Cody Ford is also going to be a very good player just maybe not at Right Tackle.

 

If he ends up being a dominant OG....it was still a excellent pick

 

What does Orlando Brown have to do with Cody Ford? They weren't even the same draft class. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by GunnerBill

[Coach Tuesday]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But put him out there on Sunday and he can block. 

No question.  Just like his dad.  A lunatic but he can play.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

What does Orlando Brown have to do with Cody Ford? They weren't even the same draft class. 

Ehhh.....sorry....wrong thread

 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

Ehhh.....sorry....wrong thread

 

 

I also think Ford can still turn out to be an excellent guard for what it worth. The Bills need to move him there and not stubbornly try and persevere with him at tackle. 

[MJS]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I also think Ford can still turn out to be an excellent guard for what it worth. The Bills need to move him there and not stubbornly try and persevere with him at tackle. 

Well, they didn't really have a RT option since Nseke was hurt so much, and Feliciano was a good RG, so I think RT was the best place for him to get playing time anyway. Now, if we lose a guard in FA, then maybe you move him over.

[Solomon Grundy]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

In reference to the above tweet re: Baltimore. How stupid do all the people who downgraded Orlando Brown because he had a bad combine feel right now? I stuck to my guns. His tape was late 1st rounder tape. Baltimore has bookend tackles. 

The tape don't lie Coach!! 

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, MJS said:

Well, they didn't really have a RT option since Nseke was hurt so much, and Feliciano was a good RG, so I think RT was the best place for him to get playing time anyway. Now, if we lose a guard in FA, then maybe you move him over.

 

I am not against them having played him RT as a rook. I will be against them trying to persist with it in year 2 if they do that. 

[3rdand12]

19 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is a "chicken and egg" question.  Great offensive coordinators call plays that their players are capable of executing.  So yes, it's fair to point a finger at the players and say "better execution is needed".  But when certain tendencies are noted where plays don't work, and certain tendencies where plays work, it's also fair to ask whether plays that worked to the strengths of the players and enabled them to execute were called consistently.

 

It's not as though the Bills have been consistently unable to execute on every play.  We aren't the #8 team in the league for rushing yards (#6 for attempts) because we can't execute.

 

 

Continuity has its good points, but one can't effect change by keeping everything the same.  So since Daboll will evidently be the same, and many of the core players will be the same, perhaps a slightly different approach ny Daboll would be appropriate.

O line and WRs really have one year under Daboll.

And it was a hello, glad to meet you year : ).
 I am happy to get another year from him

 let them all review the mistakes (and that should keep them busy off season ) and the things they did well, and refocus.
 

In regard to making change or evolving, Daboll has seen quite a few spins on how to run and Offense and I might suggest he has plenty in his toolbox yet.
 

Now whether he can marry that to the players strengths?  Well that is what i expect from next season.
Nothing less.

[3rdand12]

40 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not against them having played him RT as a rook. I will be against them trying to persist with it in year 2 if they do that. 

I am sure putting Ford at T meant they knew he was going to need help. (even though he did not always get it) and that is working around a weakness.
They absolutely need to fix that this season.

 Nothing against the Rook : )

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

I guess - but he showed up pretty out of shape, he's a bit of a headcase already, and his dad was a MAJOR headcase as Baltimore well knows... 

 

Orlando Brown Jr is a headcase?  How? 

 

Seems like an articulate and intelligent guy.  The Ravens put him out there to talk to the media on a regular basis.

[Dr. Who]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not against them having played him RT as a rook. I will be against them trying to persist with it in year 2 if they do that. 

I hope Conklin is a priority free agent. Move Ford inside.

[Coach Tuesday]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Orlando Brown Jr is a headcase?  How? 

 

Seems like an articulate and intelligent guy.  The Ravens put him out there to talk to the media on a regular basis.

As was his dad articulate and intelligent.  But there is/was an undercurrent of bizarre behavior.  Brown Jr. showed up wildly unprepared for the Combine - the biggest job interview of his life - and was widely panned for having one of the worst performances of all-time.  He benched pressed 14 times among many other bad testing outcomes, and offered bizarre explanations for it (for example he blamed his bench press weakness on his “breathing routine”).  Good player but something is off.

[34-78-83]

On 1/14/2020 at 7:07 PM, GoBills808 said:

Fumble recoveries and turnovers in general are primarily a function of chance- http://www.footballperspective.com/2013-fumble-recovery-data-has-jets-cowboys-at-extremes/

 

Also- http://harvardsportsanalysis.org/2014/10/how-random-are-turnovers/

 

They are easily as much a function of playing with risk as they are random chance. Ie. down 2 scores in the 3rd quarter... (gotta start trying some more high risk plays to come back). Also... Up 2 scores at the same time of the game (likely take fewer risks in the passing game and try to run the ball, go down with contact and not over fight for extra yards). Also, even in one on one player matchups, the overmatched guy in terms of talent/skill is going to have more turnovers than the dominant player. More things that I haven't seen addressed yet by analytics. Maybe they are somewhere... just haven't seen.