NoSaint Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 4 hours ago, Scott7975 said: I looked at where this stat comes from. ESPN. Here is the link: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27584726/nfl-pass-blocking-pass-rushing-rankings-2019-pbwr-prwr-leaderboard Both our tackles Nsekhe and Dawkins rate #8 and #10 at 92% according to them and Morse ranks 9th at center with 95%. Our guards did not make top 10. They also have a pass rush win rate for defense. Only Oliver cracked their top 10 list. Not sure how they are ranking the teams as a whole because we have 3 guys in the top 10. So do the Packers but their guys individually rank higher than ours yet their team ranks lower. As for my own eyeballs... I would say we have a "boom or bust" offensive line. There are times where guys are just blown up from the snap with people on Allen almost immediately. Then there are other times when our line does really well and Allen has lots of time. Every line tends to have that kind of boom or bust nature. There are incredibly few, if any, lines that are winning across the board consistently i wouldn’t argue that we are the 2nd best but think we are probably much more in the thick of it among good lines than most realize because they have unreasonably high expectations of what other teams are getting. Essentially all have at least 1-2 weak links even when healthy and start rolling injuries and it gets even worse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 7 hours ago, JR in Pittsburgh said: I’ve thought our oline has done a nice job all year. Glad that the data supports me. in light of all the criticism on here, I figured I was alone and was just thinking they were good because they are relatively better than the last few years. No you are right. They have been decent - especially the interior guys. Josh needs to get the ball out quicker. He did a decent job of that through 2 weeks but the last two he has definitely reverted to type a bit. Anything longer than 2.7 seconds average time to throw is generally bad news in the NFL of 2019. 7 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: To be honest, I thought it was going to be higher than that given the amount of times Allen is dodging and weaving with his legs back there too. So that was actually pretty solid considering how much he uses his legs. It has been higher the last two weeks. He was at 2.7 through 2 games so has been above 3 seconds the past 2. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenosha2Buffalo Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 Just shows how bad Josh is struggling to adjust to the NFL. #1 hold onto the ball to long . #2 run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 Um ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: Eyeball test says otherwise. Which is what the eyeball test will do if your QB holds the ball too long. It's apparently not for nothing that McDermott keeps saying Josh has to take what the defenses give him. TheNextGenStats look at how well the linemen hold their blocks for the first 2.5 seconds. Edited October 5, 2019 by Thurman#1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 9 hours ago, JR in Pittsburgh said: I agree— seems high. But some would argue that JA holds the ball too long. I would like to see the QB stats on release time. Edit: I found the QB release time stats. JA is 2.9 seconds, which is on the higher side but not abnormally high. For example, Dak is the same. So don’t think that explains anything. https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing Hunh? "Not abnormally high"? He's ranked 32nd out of 38 in terms of time taken. That is absolutely abnormally high. Yes, Prescott is the same, but that makes Prescott abnormally high as well. It's a tough stat to understand, because a guy can be taking a long time for good reason or for bad reasons. But with Josh's poor rates on long passes this year, I'd argue he isn't holding the ball and sprinting for good reason. And again, McDermott keeps harping on taking what the defense is giving him, which is basically shorter routes where the ball comes out quicker. In a game or two he's done that well this year, but not consistently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florida Bills Fanatic Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 11 hours ago, matter2003 said: A large part of the problem are deep drops and Allen holding the ball too long. You are right on point about the deep drops. Allen also does a poor job on blitz recognition and finding the hot receiver. Hopefully, he will improve that with experience. Overall, my eye test tells me that the line has played pretty well. As fans, we have a tendency to dwell on the plays that disappoint us, especially if they cost us a scoring opportunity or result in a turnover. For those who suggest that the o- line isn't greatly improved over last season, I recommend a trip to the optometrist for your own eye test. For me, the data tells most of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aireskoi Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 What I'm seeing is a lack of rhythm to the offense. The plays seem disjointed and off-timed a lot. McDermott and Frazier do this constantly to other teams' offenses. Experience will help Josh and the whole group, but the plays that are "easy money" have to be made. When they're not everything gets off timing. The O'line stat is aided by Josh's scrambling ability. The Patriots ends were playing contain at times, that would show well for the stat but not because they beat their man. My hope is that Josh will consistently make the plays in the rhythm of the offense, but when it's needed he'll put on the cape. I'm not sold that Josh can be a guy you want throwing 50 times a game. Give him Russell Wilson's game plan. We have the defense, maybe we need another RB to help, we'll see how Singletary returns. We have all these TE's, I would just pound that thing and play defense. Josh will beat them in the 4th quarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 4 hours ago, GunnerBill said: No you are right. They have been decent - especially the interior guys. Josh needs to get the ball out quicker. He did a decent job of that through 2 weeks but the last two he has definitely reverted to type a bit. Anything longer than 2.7 seconds average time to throw is generally bad news in the NFL of 2019. It has been higher the last two weeks. He was at 2.7 through 2 games so has been above 3 seconds the past 2. In watching the all 22, I thought Allen spent a lot of time the last two weeks trying to buy extra time just to find a receiver with any separation at all - while facing greater and more consistent pressure. I thought the receivers struggled to get separation against Cincy (particularly their corners). It was even worse against the Pats* across the board. Of the 44 pass attempts, there were, literally, a handful of plays where Allen had time to throw and had at least one receiver with any real separation. It was very remiscent of last year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted October 5, 2019 Author Share Posted October 5, 2019 Note to myself, stop blaming the OL, WRs, TEs, start looking at the QB & Brian Daboll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 1 minute ago, HOUSE said: Note to myself, stop blaming the OL, WRs, TEs, start looking at the QB & Brian Daboll In the Pats* game, there was enough blame to spread across all of those positions and coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: In watching the all 22, I thought Allen spent a lot of time the last two weeks trying to buy extra time just to find a receiver with any separation at all - while facing greater and more consistent pressure. I thought the receivers struggled to get separation against Cincy (particularly their corners). It was even worse against the Pats* across the board. Of the 44 pass attempts, there were, literally, a handful of plays where Allen had time to throw and had at least one receiver with any real separation. It was very remiscent of last year. It is fair to say the Cincy corners and New England corners had the better of those matchups I agree. I think there were chances Allen missed but our receivers have been 2nd best the last two weeks. Most of the opportunities have been underneath and Allen definitely still has room for growth in that "take what the defense gives you" mode. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: It is fair to say the Cincy corners and New England corners had the better of those matchups I agree. I think there were chances Allen missed but our receivers have been 2nd best the last two weeks. Most of the opportunities have been underneath and Allen definitely still has room for growth in that "take what the defense gives you" mode. Fair assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 5 hours ago, Kenosha2Buffalo said: Just shows how bad Josh is struggling to adjust to the NFL. #1 hold onto the ball to long . #2 run Tyrod was famous for his “time to pass” stats in Buffalo. It was his best attribute Funny how things can change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 3 hours ago, Florida Bills Fanatic said: You are right on point about the deep drops. Allen also does a poor job on blitz recognition and finding the hot receiver. Hopefully, he will improve that with experience. Overall, my eye test tells me that the line has played pretty well. As fans, we have a tendency to dwell on the plays that disappoint us, especially if they cost us a scoring opportunity or result in a turnover. For those who suggest that the o- line isn't greatly improved over last season, I recommend a trip to the optometrist for your own eye test. For me, the data tells most of the story. Sometimes those deep drops can actually make pass blocking harder especislly on the tackles because it gives the DE a much better angle to get to the QB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 I likely also has to do with how often Allen is blitzed. I believe the stat I saw yesterday was that the Bills were blitzed on 41% of their drop backs. It didn't say how often they were blitzed with 5, 6 or 7 but anything over 5 and it's on the QB to make sure he identifies the free man (men) and gets the ball out to the proper outlet. How many times have we seen the blitz come and Allen quickly dumps the ball off to the back or Cole for a big gain? I can't think of any. He usually takes off running. After games I've seen a lot of fans come to the board and say how horrid the OL was and I'm usually thinking, "they can only block 5, Allen needs to do a better job vs. the blitz." That said, Ford has been a train wreck at LT. I'd guess at least half of the legit QB pressures this line has allowed have come from him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 Member when these stat places had Demitrus Bell at a top All-Pro worthy LT? I member... Seriously, it is its purpose, but these o-line rankings are usually flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsredneck1 Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 7 hours ago, MDH said: I likely also has to do with how often Allen is blitzed. I believe the stat I saw yesterday was that the Bills were blitzed on 41% of their drop backs. It didn't say how often they were blitzed with 5, 6 or 7 but anything over 5 and it's on the QB to make sure he identifies the free man (men) and gets the ball out to the proper outlet. How many times have we seen the blitz come and Allen quickly dumps the ball off to the back or Cole for a big gain? I can't think of any. He usually takes off running. After games I've seen a lot of fans come to the board and say how horrid the OL was and I'm usually thinking, "they can only block 5, Allen needs to do a better job vs. the blitz." That said, Ford has been a train wreck at LT. I'd guess at least half of the legit QB pressures this line has allowed have come from him. RT and it's like we still have mills. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopey Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 I'm happy with the progress our line is making. We are 4 games into a season with four new starters and Nike is hurt so a rookie at rt. I think Ford will eventually be fine and didn't expect much from a rookie tackle. I wanted Ford to sit most if not all this season with all the free agents we brought in. Wouldn't have been the worst thing. Hope Nike is better after the bye week. Would make a big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDingus Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 On 10/4/2019 at 5:02 PM, HOUSE said: The Bills offensive line is better than some suggest, according to ESPN’s Next Gen Stats. Stacking up the “pass blocking win rate” for every team, the Bills clock in at a 65.3 percent success rate. That number only barely trails the best team in the NFL, the Cowboys, who are at 65.6 percent. https://billswire.usatoday.com/2019/10/04/next-gen-stats-says-bills-pass-blocking-is-nfls-second-best/ It's really not hard to see that. The only people who would argue otherwise are people that are trying to WILL Josh Allen into being the QB they want him to be by blaming everyone else for every offensive struggle he has. But much of the time Allen starts running before there's even any pressure, or he locks onto his 1st read the entire duration of a play hoping to see them get open before passing instead of passing based on timing, then takes a sack or throws a pick instead of getting rid of the ball. When the only people with lower Passer Ratings are Josh Rosen & Ryan Fitzpatrick (who are just screwed playing for the Dolphins) and Big Ben who's been injured, it's pretty clear much of the responsibility is on you. And in terms of INT's, only Jared Goff has more (by 1), but he also has 7 passing TD's to go with 7 INT's, so at least he's breaking even. In terms of starting QB's who have played all 4 games, only Kirk Cousins has fewer passing TD's (but he also has a positive TD/INT ratio too). Allen is seriously struggling to show he's a capable PASSER, even with a revamped O-line and much improved additions at the skill positions. He's even getting a boost from defense & ST, consistently giving him good field position to start drives from. The O-line is not the problem. Outside of needing to reel in the holding & false start penalties, they've been significantly better than any time in recent years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomark Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 (edited) He does not have that much time. This is bunk. He sometimes gets pressure in the first 1 1/2 seconds! Edited October 6, 2019 by Locomark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 6 hours ago, Locomark said: He does not have that much time. This is bunk. He sometimes gets pressure in the first 1 1/2 seconds! That has happened very rarely and only when blitzed. As said above the line can only block 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny33 Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: That has happened very rarely and only when blitzed. As said above the line can only block 5. Yep. One of the main ways Brady excels is in his ability to process his reads quickly, and understand how abbreviated that process should be vs. a blitz (e.g. reading just half the field knowing that there should be an open target against fewer players in coverage). Allen plays his best when he prioritizes getting an acceptable throw off during his dropback; he fails to move the ball and exposes himself to hits and turnovers when he is tentative in throwing quickly to receivers in coverage, waiting for either a clear break with the idea that he can run if nothing opens up. His bad habits amplify each other, and he frequently settles into a habit of holding the ball when pass blocking is good, which defenses then exploit through the blitz and force him into late, rash decisions. The o-line looks very good; seeing Russell Wilson running for his life on Thursday, or most other Seahawks games over the last few years, is what an incompetent line actually looks like. As for the statistic itself, I would note that our weakness (RT getting beaten frequently off the snap vs. speed/stacked rush) is the prevalence of getting beaten early, which overall win rates do not address. The stat has to be looked at in tandem with the percentage of plays in which the blocker is beaten within 2 seconds (we probably rank much lower in that regard). Edited October 6, 2019 by ny33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conlan58 Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 While I don't watch much of the other 31 teams this year, I can't argue that pass pro hasn't been good for most of the year. I can recall screaming at the TV when Allen has all day to throw and can't pu the trigger more than I can recall screaming at the TV for bad pass protection. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomark Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 7 hours ago, GunnerBill said: That has happened very rarely and only when blitzed. As said above the line can only block 5. Sorry Gunner. Sitting live at the Cinci game at midfield there were numerous occasions when our guards were being beat cleanly almost immediately by DLs. Everyone around me kept saying the same thing...he has no time and its more often than you would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VW82 Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Locomark said: Sorry Gunner. Sitting live at the Cinci game at midfield there were numerous occasions when our guards were being beat cleanly almost immediately by DLs. Everyone around me kept saying the same thing...he has no time and its more often than you would think. Of course our linemen get beat. I think you guys are getting too caught up in the 2nd overall ranking. The number is 63%, as in 37% of the time our linemen get beat one on one within 2.5 seconds of the ball being snapped (i.e. the average time it takes an NFL QB to throw the ball). Edited October 6, 2019 by VW82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 3 hours ago, Locomark said: Sorry Gunner. Sitting live at the Cinci game at midfield there were numerous occasions when our guards were being beat cleanly almost immediately by DLs. Everyone around me kept saying the same thing...he has no time and its more often than you would think. Watch the all22. It was not the case. Not saying it never happens, but it was rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 16 minutes ago, BadboyBills said: Our line took over after the injuries it seemed. Feliciano didnt look out of place and Spencer slid in seamlessly. Something to think about but happy we have versatile players! Worryingly I thought it looked instantly better when Bates was in for Ford. Feliciano and Long could hold the fort if required. I think Bates might be our best RT based on today's limited sample size. Even when Ty is healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 4 hours ago, VW82 said: Of course our linemen get beat. I think you guys are getting too caught up in the 2nd overall ranking. The number is 63%, as in 37% of the time our linemen get beat one on one within 2.5 seconds of the ball being snapped (i.e. the average time it takes an NFL QB to throw the ball). It it should underscore how common that is if it happening more than a third of snaps is still ranked that high Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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