Is this the Bills best qb pair since Kelly-Reich

[Chandler#81]

I don’t know. Barkley’s noodle arm can be fairly easily game planned against. He looks good currently on timing patterns in Camp and against backups just as he did in his surprise start at NYJ last season. He reminds me a lot of Chad Pennington. It has to be a preplanned throw on timing or he’ll be exposed, imo.

 

To the OPs question, we haven’t had 1 good QB since Jimbo/Frank, let alone a pair.

[Gugny]

I want to get to a place where we no longer really give a crap who the backup is.

 

Rodgers is backed up by Kizer, for God's sake.  Rivers .... okay, I won't go there ....

 

As fans, we are so used to having such crap at QB that the backup position has been in the limelight more than just about any other team.  This is the team that had a press conference to introduce Vince ***** Young.

 

Hopefully after this season, we get past that.

 

 

[Kelly the Dog]

11 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

So are you saying that Barkley is a back-up QB?

I'm saying he is not even a good back-up QB. There are not a lot of great ones, and not a huge amount of good ones, so we could do worse and have lately. Mine is more of a warning sign that Bills fans think that the Jets game and preseason are signs of what we would get from him, and they are ignoring that his limitations are very much still there and if he is forced to play more than a half or a game in the regular season it is much, much more likely to be a disaster than a triumph. 

[Mark Vader]

1 hour ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I'm saying he is not even a good back-up QB. There are not a lot of great ones, and not a huge amount of good ones, so we could do worse and have lately. Mine is more of a warning sign that Bills fans think that the Jets game and preseason are signs of what we would get from him, and they are ignoring that his limitations are very much still there and if he is forced to play more than a half or a game in the regular season it is much, much more likely to be a disaster than a triumph. 

I think that Barkley is competent enough to fill the role as a back-up.

 

Do I expect him to throw for 380 yards and 4 touchdowns every time he plays? No.

 

I think that he could lead the Bills to a victory or two when called upon.

[Matt_In_NH]

Lets get a jump to conclusions mat

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...better yet, what are the rankings of duos post Kelly-Reich and let's see where potentially Allen-Barkley may slot SO FAR...............

Edited August 18, 2019 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[John from Riverside]

On 8/16/2019 at 9:05 PM, Kelly the Dog said:

I hate to be a naysayer (not really) but Barkely is an average backup at best. He has played great since coming to the Bills but he would likely get murdered if he had to play a few games. Yes, he played great against the Jets, but he still has a rag arm that cannot consistently beat NFL defenses in the regular season. He's smart, and accurate, and a great teammate, and will help Josh, but 90% of Bills fans IMO are way, way, way wrong about him I fear.

Kelly it sounds like your describing a good backup NFL QB to me.....

 

If they were better they would be starting....there are not enough starting caliber NFL qbs to go around.

[John from Riverside]

On 8/16/2019 at 9:09 PM, BullBuchanan said:

At this point I really don't think there's any reason to believe it's better than Manuel/Orton. I knowa lot of people are assuming that Allen will be here for 15 years, v and I hope he is, but he really have done a thing to earn that yet. If you redrafted today, he'd probably be the 4th QB taken.

You are entitled to your opinion no matter how wrong it might be

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

2 hours ago, mattynh said:

Lets get a jump to conclusions mat

Conclusions of a career, that is...

[Kelly the Dog]

2 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Kelly it sounds like your describing a good backup NFL QB to me.....

 

If they were better they would be starting....there are not enough starting caliber NFL qbs to go around.

A good back up gets you 2-2 in four games your starter gets knocked out of. If you're really lucky, 3-1. I think Barkley is 1-3 and the same chance to go 0-4 as 2-2. And extremely unlikely to go 3-1 unless the rest of the offense as well as the defense plays great, which is just as unlikely. He's capable of playing like he did against the Jets if he gets extremely lucky, which he did with several of his floater passes. If you play that same game again he's not likely to get the same result and it's not because he isn't smart, experienced or accurate. He is. He couldn't do it before because of his arm, which is still his arm. 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

On 8/16/2019 at 11:09 PM, BullBuchanan said:

At this point I really don't think there's any reason to believe it's better than Manuel/Orton. I knowa lot of people are assuming that Allen will be here for 15 years, v and I hope he is, but he really have done a thing to earn that yet. If you redrafted today, he'd probably be the 4th QB taken.

this is hilarious and I'd bet 10 to 1 it was the full intent of getting the obvious reaction to such a ridiculous take. good job

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

5 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

A good back up gets you 2-2 in four games your starter gets knocked out of. If you're really lucky, 3-1. I think Barkley is 1-3 and the same chance to go 0-4 as 2-2. And extremely unlikely to go 3-1 unless the rest of the offense as well as the defense plays great, which is just as unlikely. He's capable of playing like he did against the Jets if he gets extremely lucky, which he did with several of his floater passes. If you play that same game again he's not likely to get the same result and it's not because he isn't smart, experienced or accurate. He is. He couldn't do it before because of his arm, which is still his arm. 

he's the back up. he's better then thigpen or the likes they've had at back up in the past. at the end of the day you just hope his number isn't called on and if so, it's only for a game or two. no need to be hell bent in painting such a bad picture of the kid, he's the back up QB, no more, no less.

 

 

[Kelly the Dog]

7 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

he's the back up. he's better then thigpen or the likes they've had at back up in the past. at the end of the day you just hope his number isn't called on and if so, it's only for a game or two. no need to be hell bent in painting such a bad picture of the kid, he's the back up QB, no more, no less.

 

 

More trying to temper exceedingly lofty painting of pictures based on one regular season game where if you watch it again he made a bunch of good throws and a bunch of lucky ones. I like him as a #3, I'm very happy with what he can teach Josh, he's a great teammate and yes, he is better than several #2s we have had in the last couple decades.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

2 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

More trying to temper exceedingly lofty painting of pictures based on one regular season game where if you watch it again he made a bunch of good throws and a bunch of lucky ones. I like him as a #3, I'm very happy with what he can teach Josh, he's a great teammate and yes, he is better than several #2s we have had in the last couple decades.

again, lets just hope if his number is called it isn't for more then a game or two. at this point it's who they're rolling with so, it is what it is.

[BullBuchanan]

2 hours ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

this is hilarious and I'd bet 10 to 1 it was the full intent of getting the obvious reaction to such a ridiculous take. good job

Not really. No one really knows yet whether Allen is going to stick in this league or flame out in 3 years. He's in a long line of players who had ups and downs their first year and needs to take big strides in his sophomore season. Nationally, we're considered to have a bottom 5 QB situation. If you spend too much time around here you though, you'd think we already had Mahomes wearing #17.

Preseason has been encouraging so far, but last was pretty balanced good and bad, not unlike Manuel's rookie year.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

1 minute ago, BullBuchanan said:

Not really. No one really knows yet whether Allen is going to stick in this league or flame out in 3 years. He's in a long line of players who had ups and downs their first year and needs to take big strides in his sophomore season. Nationally, we're considered to have a bottom 5 QB situation. If you spend too much time around here you though, you'd think we already had Mahomes wearing #17.

Preseason has been encouraging so far, but last was pretty balanced good and bad, not unlike Manuel's rookie year.

time will tell but I still wouldn't compare them to manuel/orton.

[BullBuchanan]

Just now, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

time will tell but I still wouldn't compare them to manuel/orton.

In the context of today? You have a high draft pick sophomore that won some games and made some splashy plays, but had enough negatives to not be considered a sure thing  and a journeyman backup who's played very well on occasions. I mean, how much closer can you get?

Are you sure it's not just because the other guys didn't work out? 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

Just now, BullBuchanan said:

In the context of today? You have a high draft pick sophomore that won some games and made some splashy plays, but had enough negatives to not be considered a sure thing  and a journeyman backup who's played very well on occasions. I mean, how much closer can you get?

Are you sure it's not just because the other guys didn't work out? 

it's because there hasn't been enough games played by the present to even consider comparing to the past.

 

has nothing to do with the fact that both examples you use are mere scrubs.

[BullBuchanan]

Just now, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

it's because there hasn't been enough games played by the present to even consider comparing to the past.

 

has nothing to do with the fact that both examples you use are mere scrubs.

 

This is literally the point of the thread...

Orton was never a scrub, he was just asked to be better than he was while he was here. He played 9 seasons in the league.
Manuel was definitely not a scrub entering his second season, either.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

Just now, BullBuchanan said:

 

This is literally the point of the thread...

Orton was never a scrub, he was just asked to be better than he was while he was here. He played 9 seasons in the league.
Manuel was definitely not a scrub entering his second season, either.

sorry mac, orton was a scrub back up, 9 seasons of accomplishing nothing. manuel, well, everyone knows his history. I'm not going back and forth with you on this because JA and MB are going to make their own history, a history that has not been written yet. I'm pretty confident though that they will fare much better then manuel/orton. 

[BullBuchanan]

Just now, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

sorry mac, orton was a scrub back up, 9 seasons of accomplishing nothing. manuel, well, everyone knows his history. I'm not going back and forth with you on this because JA and MB are going to make their own history, a history that has not been written yet. I'm pretty confident though that they will fare much better then manuel/orton. 

This is the dumbest thing I've read today. Thanks.

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

A good back up gets you 2-2 in four games your starter gets knocked out of. If you're really lucky, 3-1. I think Barkley is 1-3 and the same chance to go 0-4 as 2-2. And extremely unlikely to go 3-1 unless the rest of the offense as well as the defense plays great, which is just as unlikely. He's capable of playing like he did against the Jets if he gets extremely lucky, which he did with several of his floater passes. If you play that same game again he's not likely to get the same result and it's not because he isn't smart, experienced or accurate. He is. He couldn't do it before because of his arm, which is still his arm. 

First of all....you are totally entitled to your opinion

Right now I cant agree with it for the following reasons

First....the prediction that Matt would be lose 3 games out of 4 is unfair because he is actually UNDEFEATED in games he has started for us....1-0.  

Second....lets not forget what a shitshow last year's offense was.....offensive line...couldnt pass protect.....couldnt open holes for the run.....all of it....Matt made it work

 

I mean I really dont want to splice to much because you say 1 and 3....I think a decent backup QB gets you to 2 and 2 in 4 games.....Matt Bartkely at this stage is basically Ryan Fitzpatrick....not a real arm but good accuracy and anticipation and wont cause drama in a locker room

 

If Josh goes down...none of it matters...but I think Matt Barkely is good for 2 wins out of 4 games....just my opinion

[Malazan]

Look, I love JA, but can we have a winning season with him at the helm before we declare him the best ever at anything?

[Kelly the Dog]

3 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

First of all....you are totally entitled to your opinion

Right now I cant agree with it for the following reasons

First....the prediction that Matt would be lose 3 games out of 4 is unfair because he is actually UNDEFEATED in games he has started for us....1-0.  

Second....lets not forget what a shitshow last year's offense was.....offensive line...couldnt pass protect.....couldnt open holes for the run.....all of it....Matt made it work

 

I mean I really dont want to splice to much because you say 1 and 3....I think a decent backup QB gets you to 2 and 2 in 4 games.....Matt Bartkely at this stage is basically Ryan Fitzpatrick....not a real arm but good accuracy and anticipation and wont cause drama in a locker room

 

If Josh goes down...none of it matters...but I think Matt Barkely is good for 2 wins out of 4 games....just my opinion

Fair enough. Mine is only an opinion as well. But it is based on watching Barkley a lot, in college, in Philly and Chicago... If he had Fitzy's arm I would totally agree with you and I would actually very much like Barkley as our backup. But it's not even close. Fitzy has a lower tier arm, and it is substantially stronger than MB's. Fitzy, as they say, can make all the throws. Barkley cannot.

[Figster]

2 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

First of all....you are totally entitled to your opinion

Right now I cant agree with it for the following reasons

First....the prediction that Matt would be lose 3 games out of 4 is unfair because he is actually UNDEFEATED in games he has started for us....1-0.  

Second....lets not forget what a shitshow last year's offense was.....offensive line...couldnt pass protect.....couldnt open holes for the run.....all of it....Matt made it work

 

I mean I really dont want to splice to much because you say 1 and 3....I think a decent backup QB gets you to 2 and 2 in 4 games.....Matt Bartkely at this stage is basically Ryan Fitzpatrick....not a real arm but good accuracy and anticipation and wont cause drama in a locker room

 

If Josh goes down...none of it matters...but I think Matt Barkely is good for 2 wins out of 4 games....just my opinion

 

 

 

I don't think the seasons over God forbid Josh goes down,

 

Matt Barkley is a real comfortable fit in the Daboll O

 

 

 

  

[Augie]

3 hours ago, jeremy2020 said:

Look, I love JA, but can we have a winning season with him at the helm before we declare him the best ever at anything?

 

Please go back and read the actual question. I get it, Josh has a lot to prove. BUT, can you name a better and/or more promising #1 and #2 since Kelly and Reich?  THAT is what the thread is asking. 

 

I’m not 100% sold, but I AM encouraged by Josh’s play. He sure looked strong in the Panthers game. (Then again, Mr Peterman is the King of pre-season.) Barkley looks capable, at least is short term situations. I say YES to the OP’s question. 

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Fair enough. Mine is only an opinion as well. But it is based on watching Barkley a lot, in college, in Philly and Chicago... If he had Fitzy's arm I would totally agree with you and I would actually very much like Barkley as our backup. But it's not even close. Fitzy has a lower tier arm, and it is substantially stronger than MB's. Fitzy, as they say, can make all the throws. Barkley cannot.

Kelly,

 

Come on now.....Barkely's arm is average but lets not take it to thuis extreme.   If Fizt wants to throw anything deep he uses his whole body for that wind up man....its on tape (and I like Fitz)

 

Barkely is a guy that knows his limitations he throw some nice deep balls in that jets game last year that were right on the mark...and the majority of his game is short quick accurate throws.

 

Not much of a runner though

[Kelly the Dog]

39 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Kelly,

 

Come on now.....Barkely's arm is average but lets not take it to thuis extreme.   If Fizt wants to throw anything deep he uses his whole body for that wind up man....its on tape (and I like Fitz)

 

Barkely is a guy that knows his limitations he throw some nice deep balls in that jets game last year that were right on the mark...and the majority of his game is short quick accurate throws.

 

Not much of a runner though

That's the thing. Fitz can wind up and give it all he's got and get it there. Barkley cannot. His arm is way below average and it is the one thing that has hurt him. He's much closer to Peterman than Fitzy.

[John from Riverside]

11 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

That's the thing. Fitz can wind up and give it all he's got and get it there. Barkley cannot. His arm is way below average and it is the one thing that has hurt him. He's much closer to Peterman than Fitzy.

The difference between Barkely and Peterman is Matt is simply smarter....he knows his limitations.

 

That is actually what hurts Peterman....he could play in this league if he wouldnt keep making that cross the field cross body throw that gets picked.....and he cannot stay away from it.  If he could you might have something.

 

Matt wont do that....he knows what he can and cannot do.....he would NEVER make that throw that he knows he doesnt have the arm strength for....he would go somewhere else.   And as a OC you wouldnt ask him to do it.....its all short game stuff and if you have an accurate QB you can do that (Brady lived off it for years and I am by no means calling Barkely Brady.....but he went to super bowls doing that)

 

Good for 2 out of 4 games

[Dr.Sack]

Let’s the tap the breaks. Allen & Barkley have done nothing. 

[Kelly the Dog]

27 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

The difference between Barkely and Peterman is Matt is simply smarter....he knows his limitations.

 

That is actually what hurts Peterman....he could play in this league if he wouldnt keep making that cross the field cross body throw that gets picked.....and he cannot stay away from it.  If he could you might have something.

 

Matt wont do that....he knows what he can and cannot do.....he would NEVER make that throw that he knows he doesnt have the arm strength for....he would go somewhere else.   And as a OC you wouldnt ask him to do it.....its all short game stuff and if you have an accurate QB you can do that (Brady lived off it for years and I am by no means calling Barkely Brady.....but he went to super bowls doing that)

 

Good for 2 out of 4 games

That's a decent point about out passes, but if that is not in your arsenal it is a HUGE disadvantage, and also extrapolates into deep outs, and deep ins, and 15 yard curls, and other patterms, which are the problems he has had his entire career.

[Reader]

55 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

That's a decent point about out passes, but if that is not in your arsenal it is a HUGE disadvantage, and also extrapolates into deep outs, and deep ins, and 15 yard curls, and other patterms, which are the problems he has had his entire career.

 

As a Bills fan who isn't too knowledgeable about QB mechanics I'm curious about your assessment of Barkley. Are there any starting QB's he's comparable to or is he significantly consider to have a weaker arm than any QB capable of starting? I want to know to what extent Daboll can plan around him even if he is limited as opposed to his arm strength being something that will haunt him no matter how great he is at all other aspects of the game.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

8 hours ago, Augie said:

 

Please go back and read the actual question. I get it, Josh has a lot to prove. BUT, can you name a better and/or more promising #1 and #2 since Kelly and Reich?  THAT is what the thread is asking. 

 

I’m not 100% sold, but I AM encouraged by Josh’s play. He sure looked strong in the Panthers game. (Then again, Mr Peterman is the King of pre-season.) Barkley looks capable, at least is short term situations. I say YES to the OP’s question. 

 

the new preseason king?

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

12 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

12 hours ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

sorry mac, orton was a scrub back up, 9 seasons of accomplishing nothing. manuel, well, everyone knows his history. I'm not going back and forth with you on this because JA and MB are going to make their own history, a history that has not been written yet. I'm pretty confident though that they will fare much better then manuel/orton. 

This is the dumbest thing I've read today. Thanks.

 

Orton is and was a crappy QB.   Sure you can claim his "stats"were better than a raw rookie (EJ) as proof

• He had 9 freaking years experience.  
• He was replaced by Tyrod  (after 1 season)

Where did he play after he left Buffalo again?  

is 33 sacks in 12 games a lot? 

Edited August 19, 2019 by ShadyBillsFan

[C.Biscuit97]

6 hours ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

 

the new preseason king?

 

And this is why the preseason is completely meaningless.  Still any football is awesome. 

17 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

First of all....you are totally entitled to your opinion

Right now I cant agree with it for the following reasons

First....the prediction that Matt would be lose 3 games out of 4 is unfair because he is actually UNDEFEATED in games he has started for us....1-0.  

Second....lets not forget what a shitshow last year's offense was.....offensive line...couldnt pass protect.....couldnt open holes for the run.....all of it....Matt made it work

 

I mean I really dont want to splice to much because you say 1 and 3....I think a decent backup QB gets you to 2 and 2 in 4 games.....Matt Bartkely at this stage is basically Ryan Fitzpatrick....not a real arm but good accuracy and anticipation and wont cause drama in a locker room

 

If Josh goes down...none of it matters...but I think Matt Barkely is good for 2 wins out of 4 games....just my opinion

Ryan Fitzpatrick is Joe Montana compared to Matt Barkley.  And I liked Barkley the best in his draft.  When he had to play for the Bears, he was on pace to throw 28 ints in a season!  

 

I get the excitement but Allen hasn’t proven anything and Barkley has proven he is a borderline nfl qb.  You could do worse but top flight backup QBs aren’t sitting on their couch 7 weeks into the season.  

[eball]

I didn't read through the whole thread but I was thinking about this question and I think Allen/Barkley is probably the best duo since (gasp) Flutie/Johnson.  Whether you loved/hated either one of those guys they each had talent and could be "the guy" for a while.  Since Kelly and Reich the Bills haven't had that except for those two -- until now (hopefully).

[nucci]

All these posts about "best ever since"   QBs, DBs......let's win a few games first.......maybe even make the playoffs?

Edited August 19, 2019 by nucci

[John from Riverside]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

And this is why the preseason is completely meaningless.  Still any football is awesome. 

Ryan Fitzpatrick is Joe Montana compared to Matt Barkley.  And I liked Barkley the best in his draft.  When he had to play for the Bears, he was on pace to throw 28 ints in a season!  

 

I get the excitement but Allen hasn’t proven anything and Barkley has proven he is a borderline nfl qb.  You could do worse but top flight backup QBs aren’t sitting on their couch 7 weeks into the season.  

No offense C. but sometimes I seriously wonder if they read what they are responding to.

 

"Top Flight" I dont think ANYBODY is saying that.....all I simply said is Matt is a smart vet guy who is in a good offense for him and knows his limitations and fits the definition of being a solid backup QB.  He is accurate, smart, experienced and will never be confused with a starter.  Just a guy that you could win half your games with if your starter went down.

 

I dont know what happened with his previous teams....I care about what he is doing here.  I dont expect a ton.....if he has to start any amount of games we are screwed but you can say that with just about every NFL team.

[C.Biscuit97]

33 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

No offense C. but sometimes I seriously wonder if they read what they are responding to.

 

"Top Flight" I dont think ANYBODY is saying that.....all I simply said is Matt is a smart vet guy who is in a good offense for him and knows his limitations and fits the definition of being a solid backup QB.  He is accurate, smart, experienced and will never be confused with a starter.  Just a guy that you could win half your games with if your starter went down.

 

I dont know what happened with his previous teams....I care about what he is doing here.  I dont expect a ton.....if he has to start any amount of games we are screwed but you can say that with just about every NFL team.

John, I think it’s kinda silly to ignore a whole worth of evidence for one game against the Jets (who fired everyone) and a couple of preseason games, where most qbs can look good.  

 

I’m fine with him as a backup and I’m sure he is great in the locker room.  But we could be in trouble if he has to play:  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BarkMa00/gamelog/2016/

 

but if you guys guys really want to get crazy:  are we sure Allen and not Barkley gives us the best chance to win???? ?

[DaBillsFanSince1973]