good read on how the Yanks slowly turned things around by building a better culture in the early 90s - fits in to what McBeane is doing here

[Reed83HOF]

Was reading a Yankees article on The Athletic (while I should be working) and it just re-enforced what McD & Beane are working on here. I just pulled out a few things, but man it is a great read!

 

https://theathletic.com/1110218/2019/08/09/everybodys-kind-of-forgotten-for-the-94-yankees-whose-great-season-was-cut-short-by-a-strike-what-ifs-linger/

 

He also understood that the culture in the clubhouse couldn’t be cleaned up without Mattingly, whose presence gained importance as the Yankees began graduating their own homegrown players.

 

When a fledgling Bernie Williams was getting hazed by a salty veteran, it was Mattingly who pushed back. “Mel Hall or somebody called him Bernice,” Showalter said. “Donnie jumped in their sh__. So did I. He’s like, ‘This guy is going to be part of some really good baseball here. Let’s make his path easier instead of harder.’” When a young Jim Leyritz rubbed teammates the wrong way with his brashness — like the time he stormed out of the dugout because he was pinch-hit for — it was Mattingly who loudly let him know that the behavior was unacceptable. “Boys, Elvis has left the building,” Showalter said, recounting Mattingly’s retort as Leyritz left in a huff. “The whole f_cking dugout just cracked up. OK, Elvis, you can leave now. He goes, ‘Who the f_ck are you? Who the f_ck are you?’”

 

Those Yankees were not star-studded. This was not by design. In the winter of 1992, the free-agent market included Barry Bonds, Greg Maddux and David Cone. None would come to the Bronx. Slight improvement couldn’t erase the scars of the dark years. Undeterred, Michael stayed true to his vision, paying special attention to those who would shape the right culture. “Slowly,” Mattingly said, “we were getting guys.”

 

In signing lefty Jimmy Key and infielder Mike Gallego, the Yankees added seasoned professionals who had won a World Series championship. Wade Boggs arrived from the Red Sox, where he’d been labeled as selfish, though the Yankees believed he’d fold into their new culture. On the trade front, Michael sent Roberto Kelly to the Reds for the volatile O’Neill. To round out the rotation, the Yankees traded for Abbott, who had been an anchor with the Angels. The lefty’s initial reaction was typical for the time. “When I first received news that I had been traded to the Yankees, the connotation wasn’t great,” Abbott said. “It was not a destination. There was a lot of drama there.”

 

That would change quickly. In 1993, the Yankees finished with a winning record for the first time in years. They dueled with the defending world champion Blue Jays, making it a race until the final month of the season. But the biggest shift came within the walls of the clubhouse.

 

“I’d been through a few of those years — kind of what we’re doing now a little bit, where you’re struggling and struggling,” said Mattingly, now the manager of the Marlins. “At some point, that thing turns. They brought in the right guys, guys who played the game right, guys who didn’t accept losing.” Mattingly described a familiar dynamic. There would always be those in it for themselves and those in it for the team. The key, he said, was swaying those in the middle. That task became easier with the likes of Gallego, Stanley and, perhaps most noticeably, O’Neill. “Here’s a guy that was so competitive, it’s almost like he tipped the scales,” Mattingly said. “When you get enough guys going the right direction, then everybody kind of gets in line.”

 

[HOUSE]

[The Real Buffalo Joe]

This is similar to how the Astros built the team they have now. They signed Carlos Beltran who was well past his prime as a player. But he served as an unofficial player/coach. Which is what I think Shady and Gore are there for. What Anderson was supposed to be. Even Kyle in the past year or two. Carlos had authentic wrestling belts made for the team. Handed them out after every game to the game MVP. Anybody who didn't show up to the "ceremony" was fined $500. As stupid as it seemed at the time, it brought them together as a team. 

[Don Otreply]

Yup, like it said in the article, if you don’t have everyone pulling in the same direction your not going anywhere.

 

Go Bills!!!

[Magox]

No such thing as culture.  It's a catch phrase for losers just trying to buy themselves more time.  

 

At least so I've been told.

[Gugny]

Gene Michael and Buck Showalter did one hell of a job assembling that dynasty.  I'm glad George could see and enjoy all the glory before Alzheimer's took hold and his sons ruined the team.

[Reed83HOF]

42 minutes ago, Gugny said:

Gene Michael and Buck Showalter did one hell of a job assembling that dynasty.  I'm glad George could see and enjoy all the glory before Alzheimer's took hold and his sons ruined the team.

I hate that they refuse to spend money. Last year Hal is supposedly pissed the Red Sux won the WS, but yet they wouldn't go the extra year for Corbin and didn't want to pay Kuechel an extra million so they could try to stay under the tax thresholds - Hal must be at least 1/2 Wilpon...

 

George would have thrown the money at the players to get them here (he also might have traded away all of the young talent)...

 

This reminded me of Kyle and what our players have even said:

 

The Yankees had not reached the postseason since 1981. Getting Mattingly there for the first time became the focus.

“That team fit him,” Showalter said. “That whole team was him. That ’94 team, that was a really fun team to manage because it was driven by Mattingly’s makeup and the charisma and just the aura he had around him. Everybody wanted to please him. You wanted to be accepted by him. You wanted to play the game like he played it, and the way he wanted to play it. There were a lot of people who were really starting to make their mark who went on to have great careers.”

[Rocket94]

45 minutes ago, Magox said:

No such thing as culture.  It's a catch phrase for losers just trying to buy themselves more time.  

 

At least so I've been told.

Not really losers. Beane and McDermott are far from that. It is a brand that they are selling by appealing to your sensibility. A timeless and researched approach to reach a particular fan base. 

[The Real Buffalo Joe]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

Gene Michael and Buck Showalter did one hell of a job assembling that dynasty.  I'm glad George could see and enjoy all the glory before Alzheimer's took hold and his sons ruined the team.

Yes. The fact that Joe Girardi took what was supposed to be a rebuilding team to Game 7 of the ALCS, and lost to the eventual World Series champions, and fired him, was absolutely ridiculous. 

[row_33]

Steinbrenner returned from suspension and the Collusion against signing free agents ended.

 

No mystery there at all for the Yankees to suddenly dominate

 

 

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, The Real Buffalo Joe said:

Yes. The fact that Joe Girardi took what was supposed to be a rebuilding team to Game 7 of the ALCS, and lost to the eventual World Series champions, and fired him, was absolutely ridiculous. 

 

Borderline criminal.  I hope he ends up with the Mets.

[Mr Info]

Perhaps culture was a thing in MLB in the 90s but not anymore, MLB is all $....7 of the top 8 teams in 2019 MLB payroll are either in 1st place or a wild card spot. https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/

 

In the NFL, with a salary cap, perhaps there can be a differentiator. Be that coaching, GM/management, culture or some combination of these that pushes a team beyond the others. The Pats* have seemed to make superior personnel decisions and expert coaching besides the goat at qb to exceed all odds and surpass all others in a parity driven league. 

Hopefully, the Bills culture philosophy along with good coaching & personnel decisions will be the next model of success in a parity driven league.

 

[CardinalScotts]

the guys who discount culture typically never played athletics. its real yes winning fuels it but winning for a year doesn't build  it. There is much more to it and that the part some guys don't get. Being accountable to each other, playing for  someone besides yourself- if you don't get there you will only practice and play to what your mood/motivation is that day. If you can get where you play for each other not letting the others down motivates you. Again if you haven't been around athletics at a descent level you won't get it. (This is Schopp- Howie and Jeremy not an athletic bone in any of them

[Rocket94]

2 minutes ago, CardinalScotts said:

the guys who discount culture typically never played athletics. its real yes winning fuels it but winning for a year doesn't build  it. There is much more to it and that the part some guys don't get. Being accountable to each other, playing for  someone besides yourself- if you don't get there you will only practice and play to what your mood/motivation is that day. If you can get where you play for each other not letting the others down motivates you. Again if you haven't been around athletics at a descent level you won't get it. (This is Schopp- Howie and Jeremy not an athletic bone in any of them

So true. Accountablity to others, being selfless...placing an urgency on your own life as well as others.

[QCity]

That Yankee dynasty didn't win because of culture, they won because of talent. And no, I'm not discounting culture here. Those teams were was just damn good.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, QCity said:

That Yankee dynasty didn't win because of culture, they won because of talent. And no, I'm not discounting culture here. Those teams were was just damn good.

 

 

Yeah but it was also  like a precursor to "analytics" in that they were ahead of the curve in the on-base phenomenon.

 

The Yankees current string of consecutive winning seasons is by far the longest in the big 4 north american pro sports teams and is soon to be a ridiculous 27 straight........and is second only in MLB history to their own 39 straight winning seasons from 1926-1964.

 

Being a Bills and Yankees fan is about as big of a contrast as you can have.

[klos63]

3 hours ago, row_33 said:

Steinbrenner returned from suspension and the Collusion against signing free agents ended.

 

No mystery there at all for the Yankees to suddenly dominate

 

 

But while Steinbrenner was suspended, they front office used that time to make smart moves to build the dynasty that George likely wouldn't have gone along with.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, row_33 said:

Steinbrenner returned from suspension and the Collusion against signing free agents ended.

 

No mystery there at all for the Yankees to suddenly dominate

 

 

 

 

Don't complain...........if Big Stein wasn't complicit in collusion in the 80's then early 90''s Blue Jays never win a WS.    Broadly, not bidding on coveted pitchers cost the Yankees a lot of top pitching options.  Specifically the Yankees refusing to bid on Jack Morris multiple times is what fueled the investigation into collusion and the 1992 Jays don't win without Jack.

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by BADOLBILZ

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Costanza calling out Steinbrenner and his massive ego is where I think the organization finally got on the straight and narrow.

[stinky finger]

4 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Borderline criminal.  I hope he ends up with the Mets.

 

Girardi was thee perfect replacement for Torre.

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

The McBeane myth making has reached even dizzier heights...

[stinky finger]

3 hours ago, CardinalScotts said:

the guys who discount culture typically never played athletics. its real yes winning fuels it but winning for a year doesn't build  it. There is much more to it and that the part some guys don't get. Being accountable to each other, playing for  someone besides yourself- if you don't get there you will only practice and play to what your mood/motivation is that day. If you can get where you play for each other not letting the others down motivates you. Again if you haven't been around athletics at a descent level you won't get it. (This is Schopp- Howie and Jeremy not an athletic bone in any of them

 

Yep

 

Ask the Red Sox

[Reed83HOF]

57 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Being a Bills and Yankees fan is about as big of a contrast as you can have.

Tell me about it. I expect excellence on one team and hope for a small degree of basic competence on the other...

[row_33]

52 minutes ago, klos63 said:

But while Steinbrenner was suspended, they front office used that time to make smart moves to build the dynasty that George likely wouldn't have gone along with.

 

The A’s and Jays were pooped out after dominance for awhile, Collusion helped both a lot

 

Yankees stepped right in for 1994, perfect timing

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, CardinalScotts said:

the guys who discount culture typically never played athletics. its real yes winning fuels it but winning for a year doesn't build  it. There is much more to it and that the part some guys don't get. Being accountable to each other, playing for  someone besides yourself- if you don't get there you will only practice and play to what your mood/motivation is that day. If you can get where you play for each other not letting the others down motivates you. Again if you haven't been around athletics at a descent level you won't get it. (This is Schopp- Howie and Jeremy not an athletic bone in any of them

 

33 minutes ago, inaugural balls said:

 

Yep

 

Ask the Red Sox

 

Or the Bills of the SB era....

Edited August 13, 2019 by Mr. WEO

[JohnC]

5 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Borderline criminal.  I hope he ends up with the Mets.

Why would you want to sack the current Met coach? The Mets are the surprise team in the league that has made a dramatic and stunning turn around. They were mocked when they acquired Stroman because most experts felt that they should have been dealing off their better players to get prospects. In the recent series with the Nationals in front of pack houses they won the series in closely fought games. Why rock the boat when it has been stabilized? 

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

Why would you want to sack the current Met coach? The Mets are the surprise team in the league that has made a dramatic and stunning turn around. They were mocked when they acquired Stroman because most experts felt that they should have been dealing off their better players to get prospects. In the recent series with the Nationals in front of pack houses they won the series in closely fought games. Why rock the boat when it has been stabilized? 

 

I will not partake in your jinx attempt.

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I will not partake in your jinx attempt.

You are acting like WGR's Howard Simon. He is a neurotic Met fan when they lose and when they win. For some unique people one's instability can be one's stability. 

[Big Blitz]

Thanks for sharing this! 

 

Mattingly was my hero growing up a Yankee fan in the late 80s.  

 

[billsfan89]

It's easy to say that team X built their culture and that's why they won after the team has completed a dynastic run. In the end the Yankees acquired talent both in a home grown variety and with volatile mercenaries thought that late 90's run. Talent almost above all else wins games. Yes having a good culture is a positive thing esp for sustained winning. But you can have a great culture but if you fail to develop and acquire talent then its a wrap no matter how professional and good your environment is. 

 

Many of the Phil Jackson coached Lakers and Bulls teams had a very volatile mix of players and personalities who disliked each other and yet they won 11 title included 3 threepeats in a 13 year period. The Yankees Bronx zoo won two titles and the players actively hated each other. In the end it always comes down to finding the right players at the right time putting them in the proper system to have success. 

 

It's two parts intelligence and one part luck (maybe two parts luck in football.) Culture is important I think more winning has been done with good cultures and talent than with just pure volatile talent. But I think comparing one team to another looks a bit silly as in the end talent is what it mostly comes down to. 

[eanyills]

Ah yes, the D3 superstars are here to tell us how culture trumps talent in professional sports.

 

? 

[Gugny]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

You are acting like WGR's Howard Simon. He is a neurotic Met fan when they lose and when they win. For some unique people one's instability can be one's stability. 

 

Dammit, John!

[row_33]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Don't complain...........if Big Stein wasn't complicit in collusion in the 80's then early 90''s Blue Jays never win a WS.    Broadly, not bidding on coveted pitchers cost the Yankees a lot of top pitching options.  Specifically the Yankees refusing to bid on Jack Morris multiple times is what fueled the investigation into collusion and the 1992 Jays don't win without Jack.

 

 

 

 

Morris, Kirk Gibson, Tim Raines all in their prime would have put in pinstripes in a heartbeat 

 

3 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Costanza calling out Steinbrenner and his massive ego is where I think the organization finally got on the straight and narrow.

 

Frank Constanza did a better job with Big Stein (voice was Larry David) forgetting his son was missing for days.

 

 

3 hours ago, klos63 said:

But while Steinbrenner was suspended, they front office used that time to make smart moves to build the dynasty that George likely wouldn't have gone along with.

 

Every good team made interesting trades that weren’t ripoffs as they couldn’t sign free agents.

 

Yankees showed up as the best teams fizzled, just like Jordan had to wait for the Celtics and then the Pistons to fall apart from old age before he could win

 

 

[Alaska Darin]

6 hours ago, row_33 said:

Yankees showed up as the best teams fizzled, just like Jordan had to wait for the Celtics and then the Pistons to fall apart from old age before he could win

 

It isn't that simple.  The Celtics and Pistons got older and the Bulls around MJ got much better and more mature.  It's never as black and white as people make it out to be.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

8 hours ago, JohnC said:

You are acting like WGR's Howard Simon. He is a neurotic Met fan when they lose and when they win. For some unique people one's instability can be one's stability. 

 

Because he knows the Mets are a false hope in a lousy division.

[Big Turk]

14 hours ago, CardinalScotts said:

the guys who discount culture typically never played athletics. its real yes winning fuels it but winning for a year doesn't build  it. There is much more to it and that the part some guys don't get. Being accountable to each other, playing for  someone besides yourself- if you don't get there you will only practice and play to what your mood/motivation is that day. If you can get where you play for each other not letting the others down motivates you. Again if you haven't been around athletics at a descent level you won't get it. (This is Schopp- Howie and Jeremy not an athletic bone in any of them

 

No different than the culture at companies and why some succeed or fail when seemingly they are doing the exact same things in the ssme markets

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Because he knows the Mets are a false hope in a lousy division.

They did recently turn it around and give their fans some hope not only for the present but also the future. When you have the surge that they did by winning 16 out 18 games (around that #) that isn't a mirage. It is a reality that their recently near capacity crowds appreciate. Winning is winning. Don't sneer at it. Let the neurotic fans like Gugny have a scintilla of hope. He deserves it for all the punishment he has absorbed following them. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

They did recently turn it around and give their fans some hope not only for the present but also the future. When you have the surge that they did by winning 16 out 18 games (around that #) that isn't a mirage. It is a reality that their recently near capacity crowds appreciate. Winning is winning. Don't sneer at it. Let the neurotic fans like Gugny have a scintilla of hope. He deserves it for all the punishment he has absorbed following them. 

 

I'm a Yankees fan. They will ALWAYS be the rejected red headed stepchild in my eyes.

 

[Gugny]

2 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Because he knows the Mets are a false hope in a lousy division.

 

The division is, indeed, lousy.  More importantly, the entire NL is weak with the exception of a couple teams.  That's why they're in the hunt. 

 

It would be nice, however, to play the Orioles 50 times/season like the Yankees do.  Home or away, they're playing in little league fields.

 

The fact of the matter is that the Mets are just as likely to get into the World Series as the Yankees are.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

The fact of the matter is that the Mets are just as likely to get into the World Series as the Yankees are.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say there's a 0.0% chance they get past the Dodgers.

 

I know, edgy thoughts are edgy, but that's where I'm at.