the Edelman TD

[Rk_Bills86]

@ Binghamton Beast

Oh get off that homer concept - I've by no means gone anywhere near that type of delusional bantering. I'm stating that Refs have been poor, penalties and referee decisions have been ununiform at best.

 

The point that is trying to be made is simple - Refs do not make the same calls for the same concepts. They do show favoritism - look no further than the ref telling Cam Newton that he hasn't played in the league long enough to get a call.

 

The Bills won more games this year than I expected - That said, the play in Houston in which Allen got hurt, would have absolutely been a flag if that had been Brady.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Rk_Bills86

[BillsfaninChicago]

I think we are missing the bigger issue here. What about the fact that Edelman looked like a high garden gnome?

[JoPar_v2]

5 hours ago, Hellcamino said:

I hate this rule! 

If a runner gets wrapped up, stopped completely and then taken completely off his feet and pulled to the ground, it should not matter that he was laying on a body instead of the grass.  The tackler, then thinking the play is over, releases runner and he's now allowed to get back on to his feet and start running again?

At the VERY least it should be ruled forward progress.

 

 

Nitpicky. You’re sour because the play went against us in this instance. 

[zow2]

Edelman has a higher football IQ than all our receivers combined.  I hate it, but it's true.

[row_33]

13 minutes ago, zow2 said:

Edelman has a higher football IQ than all our receivers combined.  I hate it, but it's true.

 

He’s the heart of that team

 

wish the Bills skill players could muster up 2 percent of it on aggregate

[Bing Bong]

You're supposed to strip the ball when you got the carrier stuck like that. It's like the only way to have a ball carrier stuck for you to strip without that darned forward progress rule. Saints made a helluva strip tackle to end the day on the Steelers yesterday and it went similar to that. JuJu wasn't down and his back landed on the tackler who ripped the ball out. Just play to the whistle.. well coached teams etc. I think it's an advantagious position for tacklers that aren't being dummies.

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Too much whining about rules and refs. 

 

"there's a flag on every play!.  The refs are ruining NFL football!"

 

"they are (holding/PI/jumping offside) on every play--and no flags??  The refs are ruining NFL football!"

2 hours ago, Rk_Bills86 said:

Refs have shown clear favoritism and lack of uniformity on play calls for the last five year. This isn't even a debate. That play in Miami where the guy took Allen down by the neck would have absolutely been a flag if it had been Brady.

 

 

As has been posted on this board many times, the numbers say this is not correct.

[LSHMEAB]

There is just no justification or rationale for such a rule change and I don't think it's analogous to the touchback on a fumble OOB.

 

You gonna rule a running back down as they approach the goal line if they happen to be using a defensive player to stay off the ground? It just doesn't make any sense.

 

Tackle the guy and play to the whistle. It's that simple.

[buffalobillswin]

Or the tackler can have some sort of awareness and make sure the receiver touches the ground

[TigerJ]

"Forward progress" is one of the more subjective decisions referees have to make.  In theory, I imagine sometimes in the circumstances that led to the Edelman TD, officials could blow the play dead citing forward progress.  They didn't.  Conversely, on some plays similar to the Foster catch where the whistle blew, another referee might have let the play continue a bit longer.  I'm not thrilled with the level of subjectivity in the officiating of football, but I don't see a viable alternative.

Edited December 24, 2018 by TigerJ

[26CornerBlitz]

3 minutes ago, TigerJ said:

"Forward progress" is one of the more subjective deceision referees have to make.  In theory, I imagine sometimes in the circumstances that led to the Edelman TD, officials could blow the play dead citing forward progress.  They didn't.  Conversely, on some plays similar to the Foster catch where the whistle blew, another referee might have let the play continue a bit longer.  I'm not thrilled with the level of subjectivity in the officiating of football, but I don't see a viable alternative.

 

If Foster had not been ruled stoppped (forward progress) and a fumble was forced there would have been a riot here on TSW with complaining that his forward progress was stopped.  

[judman]

Kelso took issue with the way it was called (or NOT called) on the radio broadcast. I vomit in my mouth a bit... but it looked good to me.

 

His point was that a defender could have come in and rocked PEDdleman because the whistle hadn't blown.  I'll bet if LorAx had done just that he'd have been flagged for unnecessary roughness.  He went on to say that the league is trying to get rid of those situations and therefore it should have been whistled dead. He was quite exercised about it, actually. 

[John from Riverside]

The real question is why didnt Edmunds DESTROY him

[Nick the Greek]

Annoying and irritating yes, but how to then establish when a person is down? Make it a judgment call by the refs? You need concrete rules. 

[The Frankish Reich]

8 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

It's always a pleasure when posters who don't understand a rule tell us they don't like the call.

In defense of the OP - I don’t think anyone doesn’t understand the rule. It’s more “why is this the rule?” And it’s a good question. Should another Bills player have jumped on top of Edelman with sufficient force to dislodge part of his body that was being supported by a teammate? Wouldn’t that be a penalty? Isn’t that a player safety issue? The fact that a player - otherwise down by contact - lands on another player doesn’t seem a good or smart reason for not having the whistle blow by rule. In other words, it’s the rule, but it also strikes me as a bad rule regardless of which team it helps or hurts. 

[26CornerBlitz]

2 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

In defense of the OP - I don’t think anyone doesn’t understand the rule. It’s more “why is this the rule?” And it’s a good question. Should another Bills player have jumped on top of Edelman with sufficient force to dislodge part of his body that was being supported by a teammate? Wouldn’t that be a penalty? Isn’t that a player safety issue? The fact that a player - otherwise down by contact - lands on another player doesn’t seem a good or smart reason for not having the whistle blow by rule. In other words, it’s the rule, but it also strikes me as a bad rule regardless of which team it helps or hurts. 

 

That's just it. Edeleman was not down by contact since no part of his body touched the ground and his forward progress certainly wasn't stopped.  No down by contact and no whistle means the play isn't over. Another rule that's perfectly fine just the way it is. 

[KD in CA]

6 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

In defense of the OP - I don’t think anyone doesn’t understand the rule. It’s more “why is this the rule?” And it’s a good question. Should another Bills player have jumped on top of Edelman with sufficient force to dislodge part of his body that was being supported by a teammate? Wouldn’t that be a penalty? Isn’t that a player safety issue? The fact that a player - otherwise down by contact - lands on another player doesn’t seem a good or smart reason for not having the whistle blow by rule. In other words, it’s the rule, but it also strikes me as a bad rule regardless of which team it helps or hurts. 

 

No, it's a stupid question.  Obviously, the rule is part of the objective standard over what it means to be "down".  If no part of the body other than hands and feet touch the ground a guy is not down.

 

It amazing to me how people here b---h about the officiating yet want to make every damn rule in the book even MORE subjective.  

[The Frankish Reich]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

That's just it. Edeleman was not down by contact since no part of his body touched the ground and his forward progress certainly wasn't stopped.  No down by contact and no whistle means the play isn't over. Another rule that's perfectly fine just the way it is. 

We also see plays in which the runner in the Edelman “posture” has an alert defender strip the ball from him, and the defense recovers. I don’t like that either. What’s the Edelman supposed to do? Yell out a safe word?  I think the game would be better (and safer) if the whistle blew in these situations. 

1 minute ago, KD in CA said:

 

No, it's a stupid question.  Obviously, the rule is part of the objective standard over what it means to be "down".  If no part of the body other than hands and feet touch the ground a guy is not down.

 

It amazing to me how people here b---h about the officiating yet want to make every damn rule in the book even MORE subjective.  

In other words: the rule is what it is, and ever shall be. We live in a world of perfect rules. Any debate over whether they can be made better for enjoyment of the game and player safety is therefore a stupid debate. 

[Bing Bong]

1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said:

We also see plays in which the runner in the Edelman “posture” has an alert defender strip the ball from him, and the defense recovers. I don’t like that either. What’s the Edelman supposed to do? Yell out a safe word?  I think the game would be better (and safer) if the whistle blew in these situations. 

See Juju's fumble last play against the Saints. Is this not supposed to be advantageous to the defense if they play the whistle??

 

However I can see the point of above that it's dangerous for defenders to keep tackling a man that's going down. Hold him from being down by contact and strip away until forward progress is called. You don't need to head hunt him there but don't let him get up either.

[26CornerBlitz]

5 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

We also see plays in which the runner in the Edelman “posture” has an alert defender strip the ball from him, and the defense recovers. I don’t like that either. What’s the Edelman supposed to do? Yell out a safe word?  I think the game would be better (and safer) if the whistle blew in these situations. 

 

Like it or not the play's over until you actually get tackled to the ground, have forward progress stopped, or go out of bounds. Why not just make it touch or flag football?

Edited December 25, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[The Frankish Reich]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Like it or not the play's over when you actually get tackled to the ground, have forward progress stopped, or go out of bounds. Why not just make it touch or flag football?

And there we go. The old “make the QB wear a dress” comment. Kind of the Godwin’s Rule of all football chat. 

But consider this - we’ve seen it before. The Edelman ball carrier (sometimes a QB on a sneak) is “stopped” just before the goal line. But he lands on a pile of lineman, so the whistle doesn’t blow. He then extends the ball over the mythical plane. “Touchdown!” signaled. Is that a manly result?

[Nester]

14 hours ago, Hellcamino said:

I hate this rule! 

If a runner gets wrapped up, stopped completely and then taken completely off his feet and pulled to the ground, it should not matter that he was laying on a body instead of the grass.  The tackler, then thinking the play is over, releases runner and he's now allowed to get back on to his feet and start running again?

At the VERY least it should be ruled forward progress.

 

 

No way, chumps need to learn how to finish a play.

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said:

And there we go. The old “make the QB wear a dress” comment. Kind of the Godwin’s Rule of all football chat. 

But consider this - we’ve seen it before. The Edelman ball carrier (sometimes a QB on a sneak) is “stopped” just before the goal line. But he lands on a pile of lineman, so the whistle doesn’t blow. He then extends the ball over the mythical plane. “Touchdown!” signaled. Is that a manly result?

 

You want fundamental rules of football changed for what?  No good reason.  You're throwing in buzz phrases for effect.  Not very good effect, but nice try.  Play to the whistle and know the rules. Pretty simple without all of the machinations and whining. 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

You want fundamental rules of football changed for what?  No good reason.  You're throwing in buzz phrases for effect.  Not very good effect, but nice try.  Play to the whistle and know the rules. Pretty simple without all of the machinations and whining. 

Since when is suggesting that a rule could be tweaked “whining?” We’re all those fans who were frustrated with the catch rule a year ago by definition whiners? Now that that rule has been changed, is no further debate allowed because the almighty NFL Rules Committee hath spoken? We’re not saying anything here other than the current “down by contact” rule seems to have unintended consequences in a few limited situations, and that the game might be better if it were tweaked. Unless of course you find players standing around while an Edelman gets up and jogs into the end zone a thrilling play. 

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, The Frankish Reich said:

Since when is suggesting that a rule could be tweaked “whining?” We’re all those fans who were frustrated with the catch rule a year ago by definition whiners? Now that that rule has been changed, is no further debate allowed because the almighty NFL Rules Committee hath spoken? We’re not saying anything here other than the current “down by contact” rule seems to have unintended consequences in a few limited situations, and that the game might be better if it were tweaked. Unless of course you find players standing around while an Edelman gets up and jogs into the end zone a thrilling play. 

 

It's a heads up play by Edelman who realized he wasn't down and the whistle wasn't blown. I wish Bills' players had that kind of situational awareness.  The rule is fine as is. 

[row_33]

13 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

It's a heads up play by Edelman who realized he wasn't down and the whistle wasn't blown. I wish Bills' players had that kind of situational awareness.  The rule is fine as is. 

 

Happens too fast for the D to realize his butt of knee or wrists or hands didn’t touch the field

 

 

[Shortchaz]

2 hours ago, KD in CA said:

 

No, it's a stupid question.  Obviously, the rule is part of the objective standard over what it means to be "down".  If no part of the body other than hands and feet touch the ground a guy is not down.

 

It amazing to me how people here b---h about the officiating yet want to make every damn rule in the book even MORE subjective.  

Unless forward progress is stopped....

 

the complaint is about how subjective the existing forward progress rule is. I’m not sure how it’s written, but you can see clear discrepancies on how it’s called.

 

it’s a completely valid point of debate 

Edited December 25, 2018 by Shortchaz

[Hellcamino]

2 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

That's just it. Edeleman was not down by contact since no part of his body touched the ground and his forward progress certainly wasn't stopped.  No down by contact and no whistle means the play isn't over. Another rule that's perfectly fine just the way it is. 

His forward progress certainly wasn’t stopped?   Ha! Explain to me just how he was moving forward?  Hands and feet off the ground and sitting on his butt on a players leg. Defies laws of phyisics. 

[Hellcamino]

3 hours ago, KD in CA said:

 

No, it's a stupid question.  Obviously, the rule is part of the objective standard over what it means to be "down".  If no part of the body other than hands and feet touch the ground a guy is not down.

 

It amazing to me how people here b---h about the officiating yet want to make every damn rule in the book even MORE subjective.  

So by these standards, any foreign object on the ground that keeps a player from touching, like somebodys leg, means they are not down? What if a player loses his towel and edelman lands on that instead. He still hasn’t touched the turf. He can get up and start running again? Sorry, not buying that this rule perfectly fine.  

[Hellcamino]

14 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

Edelman was still moving forward. 

 

Also, who thinks a still frame is productive for discussing whether guys are moving?

When said still frame shows zero earthly way a man can be moving himself forward?

[NoSaint]

1 minute ago, Hellcamino said:

When said still frame shows zero earthly way a man can be moving himself forward?

 

I guess feel free to share one of those 

[Kmart128]

17 hours ago, SMAKCruiser said:

I disagree.   The rule is fine.   Don't let go of the guy until the whistle blows.

 

To be fair his forward progress us atopped. Them the runner gets up and continues. By rule should be ruled having forward progress stopped. 

 

And I definitely hate it because if Edmunds came in late to finish the tackle ref would have flagged him for a late hit... Even if he didn't touch cause that's the nature of the rules. Ref would have had no idea he wasn't down unless Edelman got up and ran

[row_33]

Receivers always want to do what he did there, the best burn on the D possible, well aware he wasn’t downed

 

 

 

 

[Augie]

18 hours ago, Hellcamino said:

I hate this rule! 

If a runner gets wrapped up, stopped completely and then taken completely off his feet and pulled to the ground, it should not matter that he was laying on a body instead of the grass.  The tackler, then thinking the play is over, releases runner and he's now allowed to get back on to his feet and start running again?

At the VERY least it should be ruled forward progress.

 

 

Therein lies the problem, he was NOT pulled to the ground. Hold onto the guy until the whistle blows. 

[row_33]

At Detroit the officials missed a Texan clearly downed to everyone but them, he got up and ran 75 yards to the end zone.

 

Schwartz threw the challenge flag and a recent rule meant that they couldn’t review the play so the TD was allowed.

 

[Mr. WEO]

6 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

In defense of the OP - I don’t think anyone doesn’t understand the rule. It’s more “why is this the rule?” And it’s a good question. Should another Bills player have jumped on top of Edelman with sufficient force to dislodge part of his body that was being supported by a teammate? Wouldn’t that be a penalty? Isn’t that a player safety issue? The fact that a player - otherwise down by contact - lands on another player doesn’t seem a good or smart reason for not having the whistle blow by rule. In other words, it’s the rule, but it also strikes me as a bad rule regardless of which team it helps or hurts. 

As everyone has pointed out, what it means to be “down” isn’t arguable.  The OP , and obviously he’s not alone, doesn’t understand that.

 

You down the guy or you play to the whistle.  Those two maxims are as old as the game. 

 

It’s a bogus complaint all around

[Hellcamino]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

As everyone has pointed out, what it means to be “down” isn’t arguable.  The OP , and obviously he’s not alone, doesn’t understand that.

 

You down the guy or you play to the whistle.  Those two maxims are as old as the game. 

 

It’s a bogus complaint all around

 

It kinda is arguable. Was Foster down on the ground? Nope. But since his forward progress was stopped, he was ruled down. 

Nobody yet has explained how Edelman sitting on his ass with his feet up in the air Should not be considered forward progress stopped. There is no way on earth for him to be moving forward with only his butt sitting on a leg.  Maybe he had some bad mexican food for lunch and had extreme gas that was propelling him?  Defending the Refs and their against all laws of physics interpretation of what forward motion means is the only bogus thing here. 

[Hellcamino]

11 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

If Foster had not been ruled stoppped (forward progress) and a fumble was forced there would have been a riot here on TSW with complaining that his forward progress was stopped.  

Thats probably true. Matter of fact that exact thing happened vs the Ravens a few years back in an important game for the Bills in overtime. Runner was picked up off the ground completely by several Ravens. Held him up off his feet completely stopped while other Ravens came over and ripped the ball free. Thats the issue though. People did complain that it was not blown dead when it should have been and allowed them to do something after the play should have been stopped. That is exactly what happened on the Edelman play. 

Forward progress completely stopped. No whistle.  If you can’t understand this I don’t know what to tell you. 

Edited December 25, 2018 by Hellcamino

[Hellcamino]

4 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

I guess feel free to share one of those 

I did. You copied it right there in your post. I challenge you to sit on sombodys leg. Put both hands up around your chest. Pick up both feet off the ground and put your knees up higher than your butt. Now move forward.  Unless you are a student at Hogwarts, it aint happening. 

Edited December 25, 2018 by Hellcamino

[Pbomb]

21 hours ago, Jasovon said:

this only happens to poorly coached teams. You play to the whistle, can't let him go, lie on top of him until the play is blown dead

I knew it was mcd fault

19 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

It happened to New England in 2006. Jerricho Cotchery of the Jets got up from an apparent tackle and ran 70 yards untouched 

If only New England had a good coach