thebandit27 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 minute ago, aristocrat said: So is there a tear or not? Sprain = partial tear 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) @transplantbillsfan I put the most recent news in the OP as it’s pretty important but, as this thread was started on Sunday, if checking it on Tuesday it’s best to just go to the last page for the latest updates Edited October 17, 2018 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Just now, thebandit27 said: Sprain = partial tear Yikes - i worry about this given Allen’s unque high velo (best ever in nfl history, most likely) skill set. I’d get the surgery with a planned august return, but perhaps I’m overworrying. That said, as @BADOLBILZ knows, these never heal. Ever. You just hope they don’t tear more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 2 hours ago, thebandit27 said: No problemo--it's worth noting that the sample size is very small though. Only 10 QBs from 1994-2010 Yeah when you watch MLB a lot you can't listen for 3 innings without hearing about Tommy John surgery at least once...................so I'd been wondering why you just don't hear about it in football.......but only 10? That's surprising. Someone said it was because QB's throw less but I don't think that is the case at all. I think they throw a ton. Perhaps more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Thanks for the updates. If Bandit’s timeline is correct that gives Allen a few games to end his rookie season. I’m fine with that. Just name Anderson, if McD trots Peterman out there this Sunday I’m going to have a hard time standing in his corner. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Yeah when you watch MLB a lot you can't listen for 3 innings without hearing about Tommy John surgery at least once...................so I'd been wondering why you just don't hear about it in football.......but only 10? That's surprising. Someone said it was because QB's throw less but I don't think that is the case at all. I think they throw a ton. Perhaps more. Yeah, but see my post above about his off-the-charts velo. It was the ONLY reason he was drafted that high. Edited October 17, 2018 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 44 minutes ago, wppete said: I just hope Josh Allen comes back 100% healthy and his harm is strong and is not affected. Even if he misses the whole season. same. no way I am rushing him back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: Sounds like a grade 2 sprain then 3-6 weeks if that's the case Welp. Bills. What's your 2019 draft QB board looking like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 minute ago, RyanC883 said: same. no way I am rushing him back. One of the earliest reports said “they wont rush him back” I don’t see any reason not to play him once he’s cleared though 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Just now, BADOLBILZ said: Welp. Bills. What's your 2019 draft QB board looking like? Also, off-topic, but Didi —cr$p. My favorite player on that team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIZ Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Did I read somewhere that this injury will never heal 100%? Is that accurate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Just now, YoloinOhio said: One of the earliest reports said “they wont rush him back” I don’t see any reason not to play him once he’s cleared though Yolo. you think we draft a QB in the first 3 rounds next year? I could see, ideally, one of two situations: 1. Most ideal: Bridgewater, Allen, Vet backup. 2. Allen, Rookie, Vet backup. Oh, and a real QB coach please. Berthard is looking decent in SF, my guess is because he has Shananan as his HC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seventeen Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 45 minutes ago, Binghamton Beast said: You forgot what Anderson looks like, huh? I forgot what Fitz looked like until the beginning of this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyBillsFan Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said: One of the earliest reports said “they wont rush him back” I don’t see any reason not to play him once he’s cleared though Agree 100%. Now that the Bills are entering the part of their schedule where they're taking on teams with poorer defenses it would have been nice to see how Allen did. As others have pointed out Allen has faced the toughest defenses of the 4 rookie QB's to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, RyanC883 said: Yolo. you think we draft a QB in the first 3 rounds next year? I could see, ideally, one of two situations: 1. Most ideal: Bridgewater, Allen, Vet backup. 2. Allen, Rookie, Vet backup. Oh, and a real QB coach please. Berthard is looking decent in SF, my guess is because he has Shananan as his HC. Maybe the 3rd? No higher would love to have Teddy B Edited October 17, 2018 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: Yeah, but see my post above about his off-the-charts velo. It was the ONLY reason he was drafted that high. Yeah.......that was the promise.........he could throw in Buffalo weather.........but in the grander scheme he could reach more of the field than anyone else........which in turn promised to open the shorter throws for him.......necessitating less precision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said: Yeah.......that was the promise.........he could throw in Buffalo weather.........but in the grander scheme he could reach more of the field than anyone else........which in turn promised to open the shorter throws for him.......necessitating less precision. Look, I’m no expert on qb elbow surgery and the necessity of it, but this season is a lost cause and he’s a long term investment. I make him right for the long term because that ligament in all likelihood will tear eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RunTheBall Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that Allen has to sit for a few weeks. He's been thrown into the fire and now gets a chance to work on the mental part of the game without the stigma of being yanked for sucking. A Grade 2 sprain can 100% heal and will have zero effect on his arm strength long term. God help us all if McBeane trots Peterman out there. The sound of so many Bills Fan's heads exploding will make a Sonic boom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, PIZ said: Did I read somewhere that this injury will never heal 100%? Is that accurate? It is inaccurate 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Fan Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Until Allen heals I say go with a local high school legend, for example 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: Look, I’m no expert on qb elbow surgery and the necessity of it, but this season is a lost cause and he’s a long term investment. I make him right for the long term because that ligament in all likelihood will tear eventually. Yeah if it's torn get it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 15 minutes ago, PIZ said: Did I read somewhere that this injury will never heal 100%? Maybe. 16 minutes ago, PIZ said: Is that accurate? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Joe Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: Yikes - i worry about this given Allen’s unque high velo (best ever in nfl history, most likely) skill set. I’d get the surgery with a planned august return, but perhaps I’m overworrying. That said, as @BADOLBILZ knows, these never heal. Ever. You just hope they don’t tear more. Tommy John surgery is only 80% successful for pitchers. It is not a risk free surgery The other 20% never regain their pre-surgery form. Rest will allow the ulna to heal itself. It is why Dr. Andrews is recommending rest , not surgery. Oh - sliders, curves and screwballs are all tough on the ulna. Edited October 17, 2018 by Uncle Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) Has @Doc or @Mr. WEO offered any comments? Edited October 17, 2018 by ShadyBillsFan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Uncle Joe said: Tommy John surgery is only 80% successful for pitchers. It is not a risk free surgery The other 20% never regain their pre-surgery form. Rest will allow the ulna to heal itself. It is why Dr. Andrews is recommending rest , not surgery. Oh - sliders, curves and screwballs are all tough on the ulna. PRP (platlet rich plasma) injections will be used here, 3-6 weeks of treatment, rest, rehab and he will be healed. If his elbow doesn’t respond to treatment then surgery would be needed, but no reason to expect that he wouldn’t. PRP injections may be particularly beneficial in young athletes who have sustained acute damage to an isolated part of the ligament and in athletes unwilling or unable to undergo the extended rehabilitation required after surgical reconstruction of the ligament. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27552453/ Edited October 17, 2018 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Joe Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Just now, YoloinOhio said: PRP (platlet rich plasma) will be used here, 6 weeks of treatment, rest, rehab and he will be healed. If his elbow doesn’t respond to treatment then surgery would be needed, but no reason to expect that he wouldn’t. Thanks for the info. The knife should be the last resort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, Uncle Joe said: Tommy John surgery is only 80% successful for pitchers. It is not a risk free surgery The other 20% never regain their pre-surgery form. Rest will allow the ulna to heal itself. It is why Dr. Andrews is recommending rest , not surgery. Oh - sliders, curves and screwballs are all tough on the ulna. I don’t think curveballs are (see my link to the big ny times story on this earlier in the thread), but definitely agree about screwballs and to a lesser extent sliders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: PRP (platlet rich plasma) will be used here, 3-6 weeks of treatment, rest, rehab and he will be healed. If his elbow doesn’t respond to treatment then surgery would be needed, but no reason to expect that he wouldn’t. Yup, worked for tanaka but not others. Kinda like microfractute surgery - platelet treatment is about 50-50 or slightly less, IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: PRP (platlet rich plasma) injections will be used here, 3-6 weeks of treatment, rest, rehab and he will be healed. If his elbow doesn’t respond to treatment then surgery would be needed, but no reason to expect that he wouldn’t. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27552453/ I would bet he gets ARPwave too 31 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Welp. Bills. What's your 2019 draft QB board looking like? Underwhelming at this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Joe Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 minute ago, dave mcbride said: I don’t think curveballs are (see my link to the big ny times story on this earlier in the thread), but definitely agree about screwballs and to a lesser extent sliders. I'm just using my personal experience as my guide. The doorknob slider is harder on the elbow than the cut slider. ⚾ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 12 minutes ago, Uncle Joe said: Tommy John surgery is only 80% successful for pitchers. It is not a risk free surgery The other 20% never regain their pre-surgery form. Rest will allow the ulna to heal itself. It is why Dr. Andrews is recommending rest , not surgery. Oh - sliders, curves and screwballs are all tough on the ulna. PS - rest does NOT fix a tear. The question is to risk it and keep playing. Fyi, my son (now a freshamn college pitcher) had a ucl sprain last fall (stretch, not tear) and his surgeon operates on yankee players. We got the lowdown about what tears mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: So this Doc nailed it from the beginning, but all anyone will remember was his tweet about the worst case scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 So many IF’S! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Joe Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 minute ago, dave mcbride said: PS - rest does NOT fix a tear. The question is to risk it and keep playing. Fyi, my son (now a freshamn college pitcher) had a ucl sprain last fall (stretch, not tear) and his surgeon operates on yankee players. We got the lowdown about what tears mean. Well I wish I had your son's surgeon in my college years ( I mean that respectfully). Back in the day we didn't have no stinkin' pitch counts. Sure I messed mine up my sophomore year in college on a slider. Played another 6-7 years without issue other than my sophomore year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seventeen Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: So we're back to what should have been the original plan with this team. Play the vet (McCarron->Anderson) until week 13 until the Bills are out of playoff contention and then get Allen reps weeks 14-17. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Uncle Joe said: Well I wish I had your son's surgeon in my college years ( I mean that respectfully). Back in the day we didn't have no stinkin' pitch counts. Sure I messed mine up my sophomore year in college on a slider. Played another 6-7 years without issue other than my sophomore year. That times story is great. Here it is again: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/sports/baseball/debate-grows-over-how-to-protect-young-pitching-arms.html my son’s arm is fine and rest worked. Edited October 17, 2018 by dave mcbride 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: Yup, worked for tanaka but not others. Kinda like microfractute surgery - platelet treatment is about 50-50 or slightly less, IIRC. Yeah Tanaka turned from a power pitcher to a nibbler to protect his tear though...........he's effective because most days he has excellent command of his pitches but he has no margin for error in the strike zone anymore wihout that 4 mph off of his fastball so he has days were he just gets tattooed. He's not entirely a success story for re-habbing a tear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Just now, BADOLBILZ said: Yeah Tanaka turned from a power pitcher to a nibbler to protect his tear though...........he's effective because most days he has excellent command of his pitches but he has no margin for error in the strike zone anymore wihout that 4 mph off of his fastball so he has days were he just gets tattooed. He's not entirely a success story for re-habbing a tear. Yup, and Adam Wainwright is the cautionary tale of continuing to play with the partial tear. That said, Wainwright was lights out when he came back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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