Mind numbing as to why Daboll isnt doing what McVay did with Goff last year

[jrober38]

Just now, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Shady was given five touches and they put a goose egg on the scoreboard.

 

If you find it impossible to evaluate play calling in light of those two simple facts, then I don’t know how to help you.

 

We trailed the whole game and our QB played what might have been the worst game we've seen from a Bills QB over the past 20 years. 

Game flow is going to work against us all year. We have a terrible QB, no receivers, and a defense that gives up a ton of yards.

 

The OC was dealt a terrible hand. He's got practice squad calibre players at his disposal with zero play makers in the pass game. 

[Chris66]

Bills drafted a crappy version of Ryan Mallet. At least Mallet played in the sec.

Jimmy Johnson always stated that if your going to draft someone from a mid tier conference. He better be dominant.

[Wayne Arnold]

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

We trailed the whole game and our QB played what might have been the worst game we've seen from a Bills QB over the past 20 years. 

Game flow is going to work against us all year. We have a terrible QB, no receivers, and a defense that gives up a ton of yards.

 

The OC was dealt a terrible hand. He's got practice squad calibre players at his disposal with zero play makers in the pass game. 

 

It was 0-0 on the Bills’ second offensive possession when Daboll called three straight passing plays from inside the 5. With a raw rookie QB. Against a Mike Pettine defense (blitz-happy, vulnerable against the run).

 

Mind-boggling idiocy.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

Guess we should fire Dabol too I guess. 

 

 

Wait, who ARENT we firing?

 

Based on one of the inside the bills video, kitchen staff sounds like they’re keepers...

[Nihilarian]

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

We trailed the whole game and our QB played what might have been the worst game we've seen from a Bills QB over the past 20 years. 

Game flow is going to work against us all year. We have a terrible QB, no receivers, and a defense that gives up a ton of yards.

 

The OC was dealt a terrible hand. He's got practice squad calibre players at his disposal with zero play makers in the pass game. 

Baloney!  LeSean McCoy is one of the very best RBs, receivers in the league and this moron of an OC won't use him. Instead he keeps calling pass players to guys who can't get open, can't catch.

 

Stop making excuses for the OC & the run game coordinator/line coach as both suck big time. There is no cohesive protections schemes to allow Allen to do his job and so he gets sacked 7x. That's on the QB and the coaches too.

 

Just last year under Dennison the Bills run game was #4 in rush attempts, #6 in rushing yards. This year the Bills are 19th in rush attempts, 24th in rush yards. Yes the line stinks but they are not even attempting to run the ball very often with being 19th in attempts. 

[Roundybout]

3 minutes ago, Chris66 said:

Bills drafted a crappy version of Ryan Mallet. At least Mallet played in the sec.

Jimmy Johnson always stated that if your going to draft someone from a mid tier conference. He better be dominant.

 

Serious question, why do you post here?

[ctk232]

28 minutes ago, Houston's #1 Bills Fan said:

OK, but if we didn't, who'd be our starting QB? TT? Lamar Jackson (another rookie), Peterman? McMCarron? Not inspiring options....

My biggest worry was actually what I emboldened from the quoted post, "develop bad habits of feeling phantom pressure and reverting to poor mechanics." 

 

My comment about using draft capital has nothing to do with wanting a different starting QB, but simply making the case that if we were okay with spending that to get him, we should be equally mindful of the environment in which he is developing, and what habits he is forming. I don't care if you're Brady or Rodgers, every QB adapts naturally in addition to learning the game. While Allen is learning, he's also adapting to the play he is seeing, and with this offense, he isn't adapting to anything good worth building on long-term for the development project of a QB that he is.

Edited October 3, 2018 by ctk232

[SJDK]

3 hours ago, matter2003 said:

 

I just dont get it. You have a raw QB who has problems with recognition, why wouldnt you get to the line so the D has to show their alignment and Daboll then has 10 or 12 seconds to talk through it with Allen? It did wonders for Goff. I mean he literally showed everyone how to do it with a young QB but nobody seems to follow suit.

 

Agreed, we need to simplify verbiage so we can get to the line in a hurry up offense and make adjustments. I don’t think Allen is there yet and I obviously don’t think our o-line is capable of making good calls at the point of attack. With our below average skill positions WE NEED TO GIVE DEFENSES MUCH LESS TIME TO ADJUST TO US. Find a way to hurry up and keep them on there toes that way.

[jrober38]

Just now, Wayne Arnold said:

 

It was 0-0 on the Bills’ second offensive possession when Daboll called three straight passing plays from inside the 5. With a raw rookie QB. Against a Mike Pettine defense (blitz-happy, vulnerable against the run).

 

Mind-boggling idiocy.

 

If the QB is the problem, find a new QB.

 

The Bills dealt Daboll this hand. They could have kept McCarron and had at least one QB on the roster with meaningful NFL experience. Instead they went with the teacher's pet Nate Peterman, and Allen, who collectively had two NFL starts under their belt. 

 

It's 2018. If you can't throw the ball confidently you're completely screwed. QBs are regularly throwing for 400 yards a game with multiple TDs, and we're trying to protect a QB who has mostly looked like a deer in the headlights since the 3rd preseason game. With the rule changes, the frequency of roughing the passer calls and defensive holding calls, there's practically no strategic reason to run the ball anymore because the pros for passing clearly outweigh the cons. Yet here we are trying to hide our QB. 

 

Management screwed this roster up so badly it's unbelievable. How on earth do you draft a complete project at QB and field a supporting offense that's completely devoid of NFL calibre talent in the pass game? Everyone on the offensive side of the football has been set up to fail by this team's personnel decisions over the past 20 months. This offense has no hope of being successful given who they're featuring at QB and at WR. 

[Chris66]

3 minutes ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

Serious question, why do you post here?

I like the Bills. I would like to see competition in the afce. I dont want the jets or dolphins to be good, but damn I havebeen following this team since Bledsoe and one way or another they mess it up.

 

[Wayne Arnold]

3 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

If the QB is the problem, find a new QB.

 

The Bills dealt Daboll this hand. They could have kept McCarron and had at least one QB on the roster with meaningful NFL experience. Instead they went with the teacher's pet Nate Peterman, and Allen, who collectively had two NFL starts under their belt. 

 

It's 2018. If you can't throw the ball confidently you're completely screwed. QBs are regularly throwing for 400 yards a game with multiple TDs, and we're trying to protect a QB who has mostly looked like a deer in the headlights since the 3rd preseason game. With the rule changes, the frequency of roughing the passer calls and defensive holding calls, there's practically no strategic reason to run the ball anymore because the pros for passing clearly outweigh the cons. Yet here we are trying to hide our QB. 

 

Management screwed this roster up so badly it's unbelievable. How on earth do you draft a complete project at QB and field a supporting offense that's completely devoid of NFL calibre talent in the pass game? Everyone on the offensive side of the football has been set up to fail by this team's personnel decisions over the past 20 months. This offense has no hope of being successful given who they're featuring at QB and at WR. 

 

I don’t disagree with you about Allen. Obviously he was atrocious.

 

But it’s really hard to put 0 points on the board in 2018. For that to happen, multiple parties have to participate in the incompetence.

 

If I were to rank Sunday’s ineptitude, it would look like this...

 

1a. Allen

1b. Daboll

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3. OLine

4. Receivers

[Captain Murica]

3 hours ago, matter2003 said:

I just dont get it. You have a raw QB who has problems with recognition, why wouldnt you get to the line so the D has to show their alignment and Daboll then has 10 or 12 seconds to talk through it with Allen? It did wonders for Goff. I mean he literally showed everyone how to do it with a young QB but nobody seems to follow suit.

 

This is just inexcusable. Its one thing to teach him after the play and on film. Its another thing to help him diagnose and make the right decisions on the field so he can see and feel what it looks like to do that in real time.

 

This is just bad coaching. He needs help, you have the ability to help him and you choose not to. Why? What justification could he possibly have for not doing this?  Why aren't the Buffalo media all over McDermott and Daboll for not doing this with Allen? He needs it badly. He looks lost whenever they blitz and doesnt read it.

 I like the way you think, sir.

[jrober38]

2 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

I don’t disagree with you about Allen. Obviously he was atrocious.

 

But it’s really hard to put 0 points on the board in 2018. For that to happen, multiple parties have to participate in the incompetence.

 

If I were to rank Sunday’s ineptitude, it would look like this...

 

1a. Allen

1b. Daboll

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3. OLine

4. Receivers

 

Agreed.

 

I'm mostly frustrated by Allen. I don't think he's going to be successful and since the Bengals preseason game I think he's looked mostly horrible. He was good against the Vikings in a really weird game, but otherwise he's looks awful. 

 

So far among starting QBs, he's dead last in total QBR (33rd), 30th in YPA, and 32nd in QB Rating.

 

He shouldn't be playing right now and is clearly not prepared to be a starting QB at this level, yet due to the decisions management made we have no other choice. I just don't see how this year is going to benefit him at all long term. All he's going to do is develop bad habits. 

[Happy]

17 minutes ago, Chris66 said:

Bills drafted a crappy version of Ryan Mallet. At least Mallet played in the sec.

Jimmy Johnson always stated that if your going to draft someone from a mid tier conference. He better be dominant.

 

It might be a little early for this assessment.   Allen has the physical tools, which he proved in the Vikings game.  I'm in agreement with those that feel the development issues are on coaching, where the coaches should be helping Josh read what the defense is giving him and identifying potential blitz formations.  Daboll has mentioned that most of the sacks Allen has taken were not on the OLine; assuming this is true, I want to know what Daboll is doing to help Allen identify blitzes.  It doesn't appear to be much.

[Jobot]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

Ok but how is that relevant? If anything that should make it MORE crucial he does this not less.

What are you talking about? They dont run a hurry up to snap it, they run a hurry up to get to the line so the defense has to line up and Daboll could point out things to look at or his reads on the play.

 

The snap comes at the normal time when they do now.

 

so then you expect everyone to hold their stance for 20 more seconds EVERY play... lol okay careful next time you try to call out someone when you have no clue what you're talking about?

[Jay_Fixit]

3 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

Daboll threw Allen into the deep end of the pool. 

 

Then after he saw Allen flailing and splashing - nearly drowning - decided against throwing him a lifejacket and instead tossed an anchor on top of him which finished the job.

 

Giving Shady five total touches and allowing your raw rookie QB to drop back time after time against a Pettine defense with no adjustments is absolutely inexplicable.

It’s bad strategy.

 

McCoy should be getting 20+ touches a game and should be way more involved in the passing game. 

[Big Turk]

9 minutes ago, Jobot said:

 

so then you expect everyone to hold their stance for 20 more seconds EVERY play... lol okay careful next time you try to call out someone when you have no clue what you're talking about?

 

Haha, whatever. Go watch last years Ram games dumbass.

[quinnearlysghost88]

4 hours ago, matter2003 said:

I just dont get it. You have a raw QB who has problems with recognition, why wouldnt you get to the line so the D has to show their alignment and Daboll then has 10 or 12 seconds to talk through it with Allen? It did wonders for Goff. I mean he literally showed everyone how to do it with a young QB but nobody seems to follow suit.

 

This is just inexcusable. Its one thing to teach him after the play and on film. Its another thing to help him diagnose and make the right decisions on the field so he can see and feel what it looks like to do that in real time.

 

This is just bad coaching. He needs help, you have the ability to help him and you choose not to. Why? What justification could he possibly have for not doing this?  Why aren't the Buffalo media all over McDermott and Daboll for not doing this with Allen? He needs it badly. He looks lost whenever they blitz and doesnt read it.

[McVay in headset]

Okay, Goff, hand it off to one of the best backs in the league on this play.

 

Okay, it's second and five, throw a 19-yard swing pass to the best pass-catching back in the league.

Edited October 3, 2018 by quinnearlysghost88

[tbarg12]

I just don't know if DaBoll helping Allen would have the same positive results as McVay to Goff. I would think McDermott would be better equipped to break down the defenses faster than DaBoll. 

But I can agree that someone should be in Allen's ear helping him with seeing what the defense is giving him in real time. 

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

I don’t disagree with you about Allen. Obviously he was atrocious.

 

But it’s really hard to put 0 points on the board in 2018. For that to happen, multiple parties have to participate in the incompetence.

 

If I were to rank Sunday’s ineptitude, it would look like this...

 

1a. Allen

1b. Daboll

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3. OLine

4. Receivers

That is total horse ****

Why does the parts that have been CONSTANTLY bad end up at 3 and 4

[Wayne Arnold]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

That is total horse ****

Why does the parts that have been CONSTANTLY bad end up at 3 and 4

 

Deep breath.

 

Because those units weren’t nearly as poor against the Packers as 1a and 1b.

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Deep breath.

 

Because those units weren’t nearly as poor against the Packers as 1a and 1b.

and you dont think that their CONSISTANT poor play does not affect 1a and 1b

 

THEY ARE NOT GETTING OPEN.....they are not MAKING PLAYS

 

 

I watched a pass catcher take a Mahommes pass that was thrown to the wrong shoulder this week....catch it....turn around....make a defender miss....and gain additional yardage for a first down

 

Tell me where we get that on this team....like....in ANY game

 

Our offensive line is creating NO running lanes to get a running game going to help out our QB....and that 4. whatever is not indicative of what we are seeing on the field.....often these runs are for no gain or loss...no consistancy whatsoever

Edited October 3, 2018 by John from Riverside

[Big Turk]

27 minutes ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

[McVay in headset]

Okay, Goff, hand it off to one of the best backs in the league on this play.

 

Okay, it's second and five, throw a 19-yard swing pass to the best pass-catching back in the league.

 

Alvin Kamara might have something to say about that.

[Wayne Arnold]

10 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

and you dont think that their CONSISTANT poor play does not affect 1a and 1b

 

THEY ARE NOT GETTING OPEN.....they are not MAKING PLAYS

 

 

I watched a pass catcher take a Mahommes pass that was thrown to the wrong shoulder this week....catch it....turn around....make a defender miss....and gain additional yardage for a first down

 

Tell me where we get that on this team....like....in ANY game

 

Our offensive line is creating NO running lanes to get a running game going to help out our QB....and that 4. whatever is not indicative of what we are seeing on the field.....often these runs are for no gain or loss...no consistancy whatsoever

 

But the receivers were getting open. Pretty consistently. As underneath hot routes. And the OLine allowed Shady to average 4.8 yards per carry.

[Nihilarian]

19 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

and you dont think that their CONSISTANT poor play does not affect 1a and 1b

 

THEY ARE NOT GETTING OPEN.....they are not MAKING PLAYS

 

 

I watched a pass catcher take a Mahommes pass that was thrown to the wrong shoulder this week....catch it....turn around....make a defender miss....and gain additional yardage for a first down

 

Tell me where we get that on this team....like....in ANY game

 

Our offensive line is creating NO running lanes to get a running game going to help out our QB....and that 4. whatever is not indicative of what we are seeing on the field.....often these runs are for no gain or loss...no consistancy whatsoever

4

While all four are contributing factors I agree with you that the line is the worst followed by the receivers, then Daboll.

 

What does it say that the Bills opening drive at GB they had a 2nd and 3, and got 2 yards by running? Then on 3rd and one they couldn't get that one yard running it. This set the tone for the rest of the game as Daboll stopped running the ball and put the entire offense on the rookie QBs shoulders by passing every play.

 

McCoy who is the offenses best* player saw only 5 rushing attempts, 3 passes. McCoy stated that after the game he was supposed to be the focal point and because the team got behind in points they start passing every down. McCoy is also the teams best receiver by far and he saw 3 only passes. 

 

In my view, the run game coordinator/line coach stinks in Juan Castillo as does Daboll.  We have seen all this before with so many bad Buffalo Bills teams in that they get behind in points so the offensive game plan goes out the window.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Nihilarian

[Nihilarian]

51 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

But the receivers were getting open. Pretty consistently. As underneath hot routes. And the OLine allowed Shady to average 4.8 yards per carry.

4.8 YPC...which begs the question. WHY didn't they run it more? 5 rushes for McCoy is criminally stupid . 

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by Nihilarian

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 .

 

Daboll had a well-paid OC job at which he was still under contract and had just had Championship success and a promising young QB.

 

Huh?

 

College championship?  And until his boss pulled the starter, Daboll's young QB was Jalen Hurts for all but the last half hour of the season...

[Luka]

I think anyone that knew Allen, knew these were the types of things he has to learn and that's why he should've been treated as the starter from the moment he stepped in the building. All those shared reps with a journeyman and an interception machine have put him behind the sticks, so to speak.

 

What is giving McCoy 20+ touches a game really going to accomplish when the line is as bad as it is? He isn't the type of back that can run between the tackles. He spends too much time in the backfield for this line to provide him the gaps he's looking for. Plus he's already banged up so I don't think that was going to be the answer versus Green Bay.

 

What really needs to be developed in this offense is the screen game. Getting the ball out to McCoy when he's already in space. Quick hitters to guys like Foster and Ray Ray. This is going to be how this offense gets going. Allen's lack of recognition and the line's inability to maintain their blocks, it's the only solution I see at this point. The inside of our line is the weak link. If you can spread a defense out, get them out of the box and out of the middle of the field, it may start to open up some draw plays and counters.

Play action passing is in effective when you can't run the football and without an effective play action, these long routes and slow developing plays will never have a chance. So if you can get a quick passing game going, give McCoy some space in the running game, THEN you can start looking downfield and over the middle. But right now, teams know the only thing you have to do is blitz the rookie and cover deep.

[DJB]

12 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

It's hard to call a quality NFL offense when you don't have good enough players at QB, WR, TE and the OL has protection issues. 

 

The Bills have arguably the worst starting QB in the NFL right now, the worst group of receivers in the league, next to nothing at Tight End, and an inconsistent OL that struggles to pass protect.

 

And people are blaming the Coordinator? 

 

Knowing our oline sucks would mean we should be calling plays where Allen gets the ball out quick. I.e slants, WR screens etc.

 

Not go routes with our slow ass WR chugging down the field. 

[Sky Diver]

16 hours ago, matter2003 said:

I just dont get it. You have a raw QB who has problems with recognition, why wouldnt you get to the line so the D has to show their alignment and Daboll then has 10 or 12 seconds to talk through it with Allen? It did wonders for Goff. I mean he literally showed everyone how to do it with a young QB but nobody seems to follow suit.

 

This is just inexcusable. Its one thing to teach him after the play and on film. Its another thing to help him diagnose and make the right decisions on the field so he can see and feel what it looks like to do that in real time.

 

This is just bad coaching. He needs help, you have the ability to help him and you choose not to. Why? What justification could he possibly have for not doing this?  Why aren't the Buffalo media all over McDermott and Daboll for not doing this with Allen? He needs it badly. He looks lost whenever they blitz and doesnt read it.

 

Goff was horrible his first year.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.turfshowtimes.com/platform/amp/2017/1/10/14212140/la-rams-qb-jared-goff-rookie-season-recap-scouting-report

[kbarrettb]

Simple answer Daboll isn't as good as McVay. Not every coach is equal. McVay is a savant, he is the youngest head coach in the NFL this doesn't happen by accident. 

[Big Turk]

Its just ridiculous. Its R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S. They even made a song about Daboll and him not doing this.  Allen would be the blonde dude on the left dancing and doing the splits. Lmao.

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by matter2003

[jrober38]

7 hours ago, DJB said:

 

Knowing our oline sucks would mean we should be calling plays where Allen gets the ball out quick. I.e slants, WR screens etc.

 

Not go routes with our slow ass WR chugging down the field. 

 

Allen's weakest attribute is his ability to get the ball out quickly with short accurate passes. 

 

He doesn't read defenses well pre or post snap, and his short accuracy can be suspect at times. 

[billsredneck1]

23 hours ago, Bills Fan in Beantown said:

This is a good breakdown of how Josh is not picking up the blitz: 

https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1047182491688341505

Amazing that we're going from, let's win games, to let's make sure he doesn't get killed out there. 

ha, before i clicked on the link to watch, i thought is was going to be all about spending too much time in the huddle and getting up to the line.

 

when you only have a few seconds left on the play clock, you don't have enough time to adjust.....if he actually can even identify what they're doing.

 

i would play him out of the shotgun 100% of the time with a 2 back set....feel bad for repeating this in threads.

[oldmanfan]

I think McD sent Daboll a message this week.

[Big Turk]

4 minutes ago, billsredneck1 said:

ha, before i clicked on the link to watch, i thought is was going to be all about spending too much time in the huddle and getting up to the line.

 

when you only have a few seconds left on the play clock, you don't have enough time to adjust.....if he actually can even identify what they're doing.

 

i would play him out of the shotgun 100% of the time with a 2 back set....feel bad for repeating this in threads.

 

Sean McVay and Jared Goff would disagree with you. They did it the entire year last year.

Edited October 4, 2018 by matter2003

[racketmaster]

This is the challenge of being a defensive head coach in this era. McDermott must identify and hire talent on the offensive side of the ball which happens to be the most important part of football right now. Top offensive minds tend to have been elevated to head coaches at the NFL or college level or are locked up as coordinators waiting their turn. And even if McDermott finds a quality coordinator, any significant success will lead to that coordinator leaving for a head coaching position within a few years leading to another search and transition. 

 

As it stands, it seems much easier to find qualified defensive coordinators each year on the street. Plus, it is defense and the majority of innovation and creativity is happening on the offensive side of the ball. Ideally, it would be better to lock up a talented offensive mind and take your chances hiring defensive coordinators every few years.

 

Is there really that much difference in the defensive coaching ability of McDermott, Frazier, Gregg Williams, Wade Phillips, etc. obviously, schemes can be different but overall production tends to be the same with decent to good defensive coordinators depending on their talent. 

 

But what about the offensive side of the ball? Mcveigh compared to Daboll or Andy Reid compared to Daboll. Shanahan, Nagy Perderson and others. It seems in this era that the offensive mind can make more of a difference to an organization. 

Edited October 4, 2018 by racketmaster

[Jobot]

20 hours ago, matter2003 said:

 

Haha, whatever. Go watch last years Ram games dumbass.

 

Looking forward to your next "ground breaking" thread ?

[Big Turk]

26 minutes ago, Jobot said:

 

Looking forward to your next "ground breaking" thread ?

Wouldnt help. You apparently dont know what's going on around the rest of the league.  This wouldn't be groundbreaking but it was last year. It would just make far too much sense for Daboll to consider apparently.