Sammy Watkins and the Rams

[NewEra]

9 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

I meant KB has had better seasons than Sammy. For some reason I thought he had a monster year 2, so I was wrong there. BUT.

Looking at the numbers they've had almost identical first 3 years though, didn't realize it was so close.

Point was KB definitely has the ability to be a better WR than Sammy. Excited to watch him healthy next year.

 

How does he have “skills” to be better than Sammy solely due to having identical numbers?  How does that make any sense?  He’s the slowest wr in the league.  His best “skill” is his height imo.  Skill is the route Sammy ran on Revis to get the 1st down his rookie year.  Skill wise, I think Sammy is light years ahead of KB.  Where kB is the superior player is his mental state.  Sammy is a loon.

 

i hope we get to watch a healthy KB next year, but I wouldn’t count on it

[SouthNYfan]

KB is a big target.

He had below average speed before two one injuries.

 

Sammy is also made of glass.

 

Having said that, I'd still take Sammy over KB if both are healthy.

 

I think Sammy would command a higher salary, he is a game changing talent.

[SoTier]

9 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Benjamin scored 3 TDs to Watkins' 8.  How did he have a better year? 

 

He's on the Bills ... ergo, better year.

[Julio Hopkins]

11 hours ago, M. Wrotto said:

The perennial under-achieving superstar. It's tough to admit for some, but the Bills are a much better team without Sammy Watkins. 

 

Oof.

[Canadian Bills Fan]

Me to Sammy..

 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

11 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Benjamin scored 3 TDs to Watkins' 8.  How did he have a better year? 

 

He's on the Bills ... ergo, better year.

Sammy had a real QB to play with captain obvious26 

[BBills88]

If the Bills kicked the tires on bringing Sammy Watkins back for a favorable deal, he would be a good addition to the WR group. Maybe! him being traded was awaken for him mentally. We didn't have accurate QB's throwing him the ball. EJ got his ribs & ankle hurt alone on bad throws. Tyrod only threw deep balls to him. KB, ZJ SW would be a great receiving group.

[26CornerBlitz]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

He's on the Bills ... ergo, better year.

 

Of course. These things seem to be a problem around here.

 

[YoloinOhio]

10 minutes ago, BBills88 said:

If the Bills kicked the tires on bringing Sammy Watkins back for a favorable deal, he would be a good addition to the WR group. Maybe! him being traded was awaken for him mentally. We didn't have accurate QB's throwing him the ball. EJ got his ribs & ankle hurt alone on bad throws. Tyrod only threw deep balls to him. KB, ZJ SW would be a great receiving group.

I don’t see any FA WRs giving the Bills a look unless they are way overpaid. That could only change if the QB situation changes but not sure how much we will know when FA starts and the decent WRs are getting snatched up. It’s a thin draft for WRs and the FA crop isn’t great either so going to be tough sledding. That’s why trading  for KB was a great move imo. 

[ko12010]

13 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Probably is, but we have a pretty terrible group so it isn't saying much.

I just don't agree with this assessment at all and don't get why people continue to claim this. QB play has a huge effect on WR play. Not to mention offensive scheme. Benjamin is a stud and better than Sammy. All of our WRs can play, they just don't get the chance to show it. Take note of how someone like Hogan becomes a borderline star with another franchise. He can obviously play, but wasn't good enough for us?

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, ko12010 said:

I just don't agree with this assessment at all and don't get why people continue to claim this. QB play has a huge effect on WR play. Not to mention offensive scheme. Benjamin is a stud and better than Sammy. All of our WRs can play, they just don't get the chance to show it. Take note of how someone like Hogan becomes a borderline star with another franchise. He can obviously play, but wasn't good enough for us?

 

How so?  Sammy's numbers are better and Benjamin now has to recover from a 2nd knee surgery. 

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

You fail to mention Eric had started 28 games by the time he was 25 compared to the 52 for Sammy.  Eric wasnt on the field for most of his first two seasons.  

 

Secondly I never said Sammy wasn't a talented player.  That route he put on Revis during his secons year here is still one of my favorites ever.  But talent without production doesnt mean jack.

 

 

With all due respect,  stats just aren't on your side wrt criticism of Watkins.........he's just THAT young still that you have to respect the upside.

 

The point of using the Moulds comparison is really to show just how young Sammy is.

 

Going into his age 25 season.....which Sammy will be THIS YEAR......... Moulds had done nothing and was considered a likely cut going into camp.    It was THAT bad.    He was a bust.

 

[JerseyBills]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

How does he have “skills” to be better than Sammy solely due to having identical numbers?  How does that make any sense?  He’s the slowest wr in the league.  His best “skill” is his height imo.  Skill is the route Sammy ran on Revis to get the 1st down his rookie year.  Skill wise, I think Sammy is light years ahead of KB.  Where kB is the superior player is his mental state.  Sammy is a loon.

 

i hope we get to watch a healthy KB next year, but I wouldn’t count on it

73 catches 1008 yards 9 TD as a rookie #1 WR followed by 63 catches 941 yards 7 TD at 15 ypc suggests you are seriously undervaluing his skillset . 

Yes Watkins has more skills as I've already said but like you said, the mental states differ . 

My whole point was KB can out produce or match Watkins production in any given year, you took my statement a little out of context I guess

[SoTier]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

With all due respect,  stats just aren't on your side wrt criticism of Watkins.........he's just THAT young still that you have to respect the upside.

 

The point of using the Moulds comparison is really to show just how young Sammy is.

 

Going into his age 25 season.....which Sammy will be THIS YEAR......... Moulds had done nothing and was considered a likely cut going into camp.    It was THAT bad.    He was a bust.

 

 

Most WRs take 3 years to reach their primes, and many never do.  Nelson Agholor was another young WR who was largely considered a bust until his third season (2017).  WR is a much harder transition from college to pros than most fans realize, especially when they see a handful of WRs breaking out as rookies. 

[BADOLBILZ]

10 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

I don’t see any FA WRs giving the Bills a look unless they are way overpaid. That could only change if the QB situation changes but not sure how much we will know when FA starts and the decent WRs are getting snatched up. It’s a thin draft for WRs and the FA crop isn’t great either so going to be tough sledding. That’s why trading  for KB was a great move imo. 

 

Trading Watkins for a second round pick.........which even then a realistic fan knew doomed the Dennison offense to a season without production from the passing game..........and then trading a pick that falls about 20 slots later in the draft for an injured KB late in the year was a BAD exchange.

 

We all appreciated Gaines WHEN he was healthy......he's a good zone corner........but the reality is that he was on the outs in LA and likely could have been had for a late pick...........not having Watkins and his likely 70-80 yards receiving per game changed EVERYTHING for the Bills offense.      

 

And now they have nobody like Watkins to sell to a FA QB or provide a lift to a rookie QB.............and KB looms as a pending FA with an $8M cap number and a lumbering, long legged tweener TE/WR with knee issues in a game where DB's are legislated to hit WR in the legs.  

 

We give a lot of credit to McD for trades..........but things like trading with KC instead of Houston and losing 17 spots in the first round when they were trying to get ammo to draft a QB and the Watkins/KB trades were not really winning deals in retrospect. 

 

 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I’m not sure why we are still talking about sammy. There’s probably no other former bill that I could care less about.

 

good luck to the rams if they think franchising their number 3 receiver is a sound business decision.

[CommonCents]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Trading Watkins for a second round pick.........which even then a realistic fan knew doomed the Dennison offense to a season without production from the passing game..........and then trading a pick that falls about 20 slots later in the draft for an injured KB late in the year was a BAD exchange.

 

We all appreciated Gaines WHEN he was healthy......he's a good zone corner........but the reality is that he was on the outs in LA and likely could have been had for a late pick...........not having Watkins and his likely 70-80 yards receiving per game changed EVERYTHING for the Bills offense.      

 

And now they have nobody like Watkins to sell to a FA QB or provide a lift to a rookie QB.............and KB looms as a pending FA with an $8M cap number and a lumbering, long legged tweener TE/WR with knee issues in a game where DB's are legislated to hit WR in the legs.  

 

We give a lot of credit to McD for trades..........but things like trading with KC instead of Houston and losing 17 spots in the first round when they were trying to get ammo to draft a QB and the Watkins/KB trades were not really winning deals in retrospect. 

 

 

KB's health is definetly a concern going forward but saying Watkins would attract a FA QB is a stretch. Watkins "talent" is outweighed by his maturity level. 

 

People mentioning him going to the Patriots! Haha, they already have Cooks who doesn't like running across the middle. Sammy isn't a fit for that offense.

 

He should do whatever it takes to get over to SF, Jimmy G. has one of the prettier deep balls in the league and Watkins would have a chance to build his value as he looks for a long term deal. 

[YoloinOhio]

Just now, JR in Pittsburgh said:

I’m not sure why we are still talking about sammy. There’s probably no other former bill that I could care less about.

 

good luck to the rams if they think franchising their number 3 receiver is a sound business decision.

I don’t think they will. It makes no sense to do so. I don’t think much of their GM though and he could very well be scared of the bad press that will come from having spent a 2nd rd pick on a 1 year rental who wasn’t even a key piece of the offense. He may get a comp pick though in 2019. 

[thenorthremembers]

29 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

With all due respect,  stats just aren't on your side wrt criticism of Watkins.........he's just THAT young still that you have to respect the upside.

 

The point of using the Moulds comparison is really to show just how young Sammy is.

 

Going into his age 25 season.....which Sammy will be THIS YEAR......... Moulds had done nothing and was considered a likely cut going into camp.    It was THAT bad.    He was a bust.

 

 

I 100% agree with what you're saying.  Watkins still is incredibly young and I think he is very talented.   But my point here, without using statistics is that generally you're paying a 24 or 25 year old wideout a rookie contract while their talent is coming to fruition on the field and they mature as a worker and person off the field. 

 

Again Watkins is talented, but I wouldnt be willing to pay him a free agent contract in the hope he becomes the wideout his talent suggests he may be.  This franchise has already spent way too much on him waiting for him to develop, I dont want to add tens of millions of dollars to our first mistake. 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

7 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

 

I 100% agree with what you're saying.  Watkins still is incredibly young and I think he is very talented.   But my point here, without using statistics is that generally you're paying a 24 or 25 year old wideout a rookie contract while their talent is coming to fruition on the field and they mature as a worker and person off the field. 

 

Again Watkins is talented, but I wouldnt be willing to pay him a free agent contract in the hope he becomes the wideout his talent suggests he may be.  This franchise has already spent way too much on him waiting for him to develop, I dont want to add tens of millions of dollars to our first mistake. 

 

You were right originally. His stats weren’t good last year playing in a prolific offense with a good QB and 3 other legit receiving options and an MVP-type RB.

 

there were 100 players with more receptions than him and 63 players with more receiving yards. 

 

You cannot pay good money for that production. The rams could sign martavius bryant to a vet min deal and he would exceed those stats (which he did last year, even after being benched).

[JerseyBills]

29 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Trading Watkins for a second round pick.........which even then a realistic fan knew doomed the Dennison offense to a season without production from the passing game..........and then trading a pick that falls about 20 slots later in the draft for an injured KB late in the year was a BAD exchange.

 

We all appreciated Gaines WHEN he was healthy......he's a good zone corner........but the reality is that he was on the outs in LA and likely could have been had for a late pick...........not having Watkins and his likely 70-80 yards receiving per game changed EVERYTHING for the Bills offense.      

 

And now they have nobody like Watkins to sell to a FA QB or provide a lift to a rookie QB.............and KB looms as a pending FA with an $8M cap number and a lumbering, long legged tweener TE/WR with knee issues in a game where DB's are legislated to hit WR in the legs.  

 

We give a lot of credit to McD for trades..........but things like trading with KC instead of Houston and losing 17 spots in the first round when they were trying to get ammo to draft a QB and the Watkins/KB trades were not really winning deals in retrospect. 

 

 

I completely disagree 

Beane knew we wouldn't re sign Watkins , so instead of nothing we have a crack at a top 50 prospect. Great trade imo. 

[BuffaloHokie13]

1 minute ago, JerseyBills said:

I completely disagree 

Beane knew we wouldn't re sign Watkins , so instead of nothing we have a crack at a top 50 prospect. Great trade imo. 

I'm definitely not against the trade, but I'm very much against not replacing his skillset - even at a diminished level.

[QuoteTheRaven83]

12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Nah.

 

Moulds had the opportunity to play with Jim Kelly......he was drafted to be an instant impact player like Keyshawn, Harrison, Glenn and Kennison were from that same group......... but he was a VERY, VERY immature individual(dodging child support and choking out girlfriends) at an older age than Sammy who was focused enough on business to put up numbers.

 

The Bills mishandled Watkins.........he shouldn't have been put in the WR room as a 20 year old without a veteran to help show him what he didn't know.    Instead he got caught up in bad habits that he could point to as getting him to where he was...........like the over-training that lead to his foot injury........and that derailed him in 2016.    By the time they brought in Anquan Boldin Watkins was a 4 year vet with a chip on his shoulder about his handling and it was going to take work to get his head right.........work the Bills weren't confident they were up to.    Hence.......trade.

 

And WR transactions that happen late in the process rarely yield good statistical seasons.     See James Lofton in 1989........12 games......166 yards.   The next two years he put up close to 1800 yards.    Kelvin Benjamin and Jordan Matthews were examples of this right in front of our faces this year.     Funny how Sammy Watkins and Robert Woods put up better combined numbers with Tyrod in 2015 than they did with Goff in 2017 and yet KB and Matthews were bad with Tyrod.   Familiarity matters a lot.

 

 

WTF are you talking about....

 

Being 3rd on depth chart and number 1 doesnt matter? Moulds caught passes from Kelly for ONE season. Which was probably one of his worst seasons as a QB. Then caught passes for Todd Collins the following year. Do you know what you're babbling about? What does his child support have anything to do with comparing WR play ON the field?

 

I seriously question the intelligence of some members in this forum. lol

Edited February 23, 2018 by QuoteTheRaven83

[MarkyMannn]

40 minutes ago, JR in Pittsburgh said:

I’m not sure why we are still talking about sammy. There’s probably no other former bill that I could care less about.

Absolutely.  The guy is gone and this board moans about him. 

 

At the end of SW's career I'm sure it will be 10 years played, a LOT of $$$$ paid based on a potential that he will never have attained.  An ordinary career, not great, not bad

[Alphadawg7]

15 hours ago, VaMilBill said:

I just don't think Sammy is a playmaker. He's a good WR and a hollow number one.( he puts up WR 2/3 numbers). 

 

I just dont think sammy is a plug and play guy. He's a WR that needs to be in the perfect situation. And I think that means having a number one ahead of him. I think Atlanta or maybe SF would be a good fit for him. 

 

Wait, why SF makes sense if he needs a #1 ahead of him?  He would be the best WR on that team by a mile.  

 

Dont get me wrong, I think SF is both the ideal place for him and the most likely place he goes, I just don't understand why you said SF based on your comment.  He will put up 1400+ yards and 10+ TD's with Jimmy G next year IMO.  He doesn't put up WR 2/3 numbers, he had injuries hold his production back here, mostly one.  When healthy here for instance for the final 9 games in 2015, he was one of the 5 most productive WR's in the NFL during that stretch catching passes from first year starter Tyrod on a Rex Ryan coached team in cold Buffalo weather.  

 

Too many people look at the stat sheet this year and really have no idea about his season and make judgements, I watched every single game and can tell you people don't know what they are talking about when referencing his stats.  Goff is not a very accurate deep ball thrower yet, and the Rams are LOADED with short range weapons.  McVay brilliantly played that offense to Goff's strengths and Gurley, Kupp, Woods, Tavon, Thigbee, and Garrett were all very dangerous weapons in the short to mid range while Sammy mostly was used primarily as a deep threat.  

 

Funniest part is everyone drools over Woods here like he had some 1400 yard season even though he had less than 800 yards himself.  Watkins is a legit #1 WR, but the Rams short to intermediate game was VERY crowded and Rams beautifully used everyone to help develop Goff.  Everyone had their role, and Watkins role didn't cater to the bulk of the play calling or the strength of Goff.  Guys like Woods, Kupp, Gurley etc were getting single coverage while Sammy still drew double coverage and the teams best corners...and those other weapons were very effective and Rams made teams pay for it.  

Edited February 23, 2018 by Alphadawg7

[BADOLBILZ]

26 minutes ago, QuoteTheRaven83 said:

WTF are you talking about....

 

Being 3rd on depth chart and number 1 doesnt matter? Moulds caught passes from Kelly for ONE season. Which was probably one of his worst seasons as a QB. Then caught passes for Todd Collins the following year. Do you know what you're babbling about? What does his child support have anything to do with comparing WR play ON the field?

 

I seriously question the intelligence of some members in this forum. lol

 

First off.......stop being a douchebag.......I was kind to your first ****ty response but know your place on this forum........you ain't peed a drop.

 

And check out the rookie stats of the other WR's from that 1996 group........huge numbers.........Moulds wasn't on the bench because he was blocked by better talent he was there because of immaturity.    He was the guy keeping the Bills team attorney occupied with his transgressions while those other young WR's were tearing it up on the field like no class before.

 

Watkins had a maturity issue as well..........but he had a better excuse being drafted onto a bad team when he was 20..........in fact with pretty much every 20 year old the Bills drafted during the drought the story is the same..........when you put kids in leadership positions on a rudderless ship issues follow.    See Marshawn Lynch.    Or Donte Whitner.    Guys who showed flashes of their potential in Buffalo but things turned due to a poor development program/plan in Buffalo and they instead achieved that potential elsewhere.

 

[Malazan]

4 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

KB is a big target.

He had below average speed before two one injuries.

 

Sammy is also made of glass.

 

Having said that, I'd still take Sammy over KB if both are healthy.

 

I think Sammy would command a higher salary, he is a game changing talent.

 

Why hasn't he changed the game then?

[SouthNYfan]

8 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

Why hasn't he changed the game then?

 

Our offensive numbers were drastically better with him on the field.

 

I'm glad he's gone because the $$ he would command vs how often he is on the field was not worth it.

 

To deny his ability/talent is ignorant though.

[Malazan]

1 hour ago, SouthNYfan said:

To deny his ability/talent is ignorant though.

 

Didn't say he didn't have talent. Regardless of his talent, he's not doing much with it.

[Reed83HOF]

So Sammy will get the tag I assume?

[SouthNYfan]

4 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

Didn't say he didn't have talent. Regardless of his talent, he's not doing much with it.

 

You acted like he didn't have the talent.

 

1 hour ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

Why hasn't he changed the game then?

 

Case in point.

 

He's done a lot with his talent when he was healthy.

 

Unfortunately he hasn't been very healthy.

[BringBackOrton]

14 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Nah.

 

Moulds had the opportunity to play with Jim Kelly......he was drafted to be an instant impact player like Keyshawn, Harrison, Glenn and Kennison were from that same group......... but he was a VERY, VERY immature individual(dodging child support and choking out girlfriends) at an older age than Sammy who was focused enough on business to put up numbers.

 

The Bills mishandled Watkins.........he shouldn't have been put in the WR room as a 20 year old without a veteran to help show him what he didn't know.    Instead he got caught up in bad habits that he could point to as getting him to where he was...........like the over-training that lead to his foot injury........and that derailed him in 2016.    By the time they brought in Anquan Boldin Watkins was a 4 year vet with a chip on his shoulder about his handling and it was going to take work to get his head right.........work the Bills weren't confident they were up to.    Hence.......trade.

 

And WR transactions that happen late in the process rarely yield good statistical seasons.     See James Lofton in 1989........12 games......166 yards.   The next two years he put up close to 1800 yards.    Kelvin Benjamin and Jordan Matthews were examples of this right in front of our faces this year.     Funny how Sammy Watkins and Robert Woods put up better combined numbers with Tyrod in 2015 than they did with Goff in 2017 and yet KB and Matthews were bad with Tyrod.   Familiarity matters a lot.

 

 

Did you...just argue with yourself here?

[Malazan]

3 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

You acted like he didn't have the talent.

 

 

Case in point.

 

He's done a lot with his talent when he was healthy.

 

Unfortunately he hasn't been very healthy.

 

No, you decided that was my point on your own.

 

How many games did he miss this year? Oh, I guess he was "Playing hurt"? Is that the excuse?

 

Out of a potential 64 games he's played in 52. That's not great, but it's not like he's barely seen the field.

[thenorthremembers]

7 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

No, you decided that was my point on your own.

 

How many games did he miss this year? Oh, I guess he was "Playing hurt"? Is that the excuse?

 

Out of a potential 64 games he's played in 52. That's not great, but it's not like he's barely seen the field.

 

If you showed up to work  81% of the time would you keep your job?

[SouthNYfan]

4 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

No, you decided that was my point on your own.

 

How many games did he miss this year? Oh, I guess he was "Playing hurt"? Is that the excuse?

 

Out of a potential 64 games he's played in 52. That's not great, but it's not like he's barely seen the field.

 

He had a concussion this year.

 

He had a second foot surgery last January before the season.

 

He has played well when healthy.

 

I decided what your point was because your are acting like he isn't a great talent who has been hammered by injuries.

 

It's pretty obvious what your point is.

[C.Biscuit97]

Sammy sucks. All he does is draw #1 cbs to free up very average guys and only caught 8 tds despite being missed a ton by his qb.  I can't believe he didn't light it up more with Tyrod, EJ, and Orton!!!

 

that said, since people are brainless beyond stats, it will be interesting what he signs for. Anything under $10 million is great value. 

[thenorthremembers]

7 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Sammy sucks. All he does is draw #1 cbs to free up very average guys and only caught 8 tds despite being missed a ton by his qb.  I can't believe he didn't light it up more with Tyrod, EJ, and Orton!!!

 

that said, since people are brainless beyond stats, it will be interesting what he signs for. Anything under $10 million is great value. 

 

If you want to sign up for a wideout who makes up 13% of your salary cap for 10% of your offense, be my guest.  I just think its nonsensical. 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, thenorthremembers said:

 

If you want to sign up for a wideout who makes up 13% of your salary cap for 10% of your offense, be my guest.  I just think its nonsensical. 

See how Woods and Kupp do as #1 and #2.  They will get no separation against top cbs.

[SouthNYfan]

3 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

 

If you want to sign up for a wideout who makes up 13% of your salary cap for 10% of your offense, be my guest.  I just think its nonsensical. 

 

The cap is $178mil.

13% of that is $23.14mil.

 

Antonio brown is #1 paid right now at like $16-18mil I think it is.

 

Apparently you think Sammy is going to get $5-7 mil more than brown

[thenorthremembers]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

See how Woods and Kupp do as #1 and #2.  They will get no separation against top cbs.

 

I am not arguing that.  My point is if you're going to pay someone to run fast in an attempt to draw coverage you can do it for a lot cheaper than 10 million a year.

4 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

The cap is $178mil.

13% of that is $23.14mil.

 

Antonio brown is #1 paid right now at like $16-18mil I think it is.

 

Apparently you think Sammy is going to get $5-7 mil more than brown

 

Nope, just forgot to add the 1 in front of the seven, apparently just poor at math.  But my point is I dont think he is worth the money, especially for the Bills.