Culture - Do you believe in it?

[billsfan1960]

The Buffalo Bills history is a losing habit (culture) as their overall record from day one is 400 w, 460 L, 8 t. IMO they have to start winning and get over .500 which will start developing the winning culture that every fan wants for their individual teams. It starts at the top (owners & front office) and ends with the players. Until that happens, our culture will never change, imo. GO BILLS

[BillsFan4]

I really do believe that there is such a thing as losing cultures in sports, and that it takes more to ultimately win championships than just having some good/great players. Don't get me wrong, you need good/great players to win championships. But not every great players is able to win one, either. He has to have the right team and culture around him to do so.

 

I have heard too many players and executives (in the NHL, NFL etc) talk about the importance of culture over the years to believe it's made up.

 

From my own experience playing sports, the best teams I played for almost always had one thing in common - what I would call a "good team culture". It almost always started with very good coaching and the best player(s) on the team being bought in and helping push the coaches message. The first year I won a league championship with my team, we had a bunch of good players but we also had a great team culture. We all had a lot of belief in what the coaches were doing. There was a great attitude during games and practices. Even when we were down in games, we always believed that we could come back and win. There wasn't that pouting attitude or any giving up. Not every team that I've been on with good players had this. Having the right mix of personalities with the right attitudes is a significant thing IMO.

 

I've also played on teams with some really talented players that ended up losing quite a bit and there was a noticeable difference in the coaching and/or player attitudes & belief system on those teams. When you have talented players who don't give a crap or start to pout when losing, or don't buy in to that team, it's usually not going to end well, IMO anyway. Like this one year we had a few really talented players (and what I considered to be a good team overall) but the best players were kind of jerks that formed their own little clique in the locker room and were always talking crap about the coach as well as some of their teammates and it really had a major impact on the entire team. We never won nearly as many games as we could/should have. As soon as we'd get down in the game the entire demeanor of the team changed.

[Jasovon]

For a team like the Bills, who have been mediocre for so long and unfortunate enough to play in the same division as the greatest dynasty the league has ever seen, we need to be better than other teams by a large margin. This is to both overcome our own built in culture of failure and the fact that we get absolutely no breaks from the league or it's officials in games.

 

Until Brady retires and Bellichick leaves with him we need to essentially be a 12 win team in any other division to make the playoffs, maybe better than that. This is why our recent trades don't bother me yet, we aren't a 12 win team yet but those trades may help us.

[DrDawkinstein]

To this I add

 

Culture = Talent.

 

Good talent = good "culture"

bad talent = bad "culture"

 

For the past 20 years have fans been talking about how to change the culture of this team or finding a franchise QB.

 

I guarantee you, when the Bills find their franchise QB, this team will start winning. it will have nothing to do with culture, and everything to do with the talent.

 

Philip Rivers, Archie Manning, etc, there is a whole list of talented QBs whose careers were wasted on teams with losing cultures.

 

Getting a great QB sure helps, and I agree we'd see an uptick in winning. But not sure any team could go all the way on talent alone.

 

Its both. You need talent, you also need culture.

[Jasovon]

 

Philip Rivers, Archie Manning, etc, there is a whole list of talented QBs whose careers were wasted on teams with losing cultures.

 

Getting a great QB sure helps, and I agree we'd see an uptick in winning. But not sure any team could go all the way on talent alone.

 

Its both. You need talent, you also need culture.

You also need to break the rules or get very lucky, look at the panthers 2015 vs 2016 two completely different outcomes from largely similar teams.

[ExiledInIllinois]

100% believe Patriots* organization is Winning Culture Exhibit A

It's a cheating culture first and foremost.

[DrDawkinstein]

You also need to break the rules or get very lucky, look at the panthers 2015 vs 2016 two completely different outcomes from largely similar teams.

 

Eh, yeah, kinda. But we're getting very NFL specific here. This is a very general, abstract topic and it's tough to look at tiny, specific examples and draw any conclusions.

 

A better perspective would be to look at the 50 year history of the Bills with Wilson at the helm.

[xsoldier54]

I believe that it is a very real thing and it definitely helps teams in close games. Teams that expect to win find ways to win the close games. Teams that have a history of losing like the Bills find ways to lose close games because they expect to lose. It is a mental thing. If you refuse to lose, you will find a way to win. It has to be learned as a group. Expecting to win helps you get over the hump in close games. Expecting to lose leads to more losses, because we didn't expect to win anyway.

[Jasovon]

 

Eh, yeah, kinda. But we're getting very NFL specific here. This is a very general, abstract topic and it's tough to look at tiny, specific examples and draw any conclusions.

 

A better perspective would be to look at the 50 year history of the Bills with Wilson at the helm.

Fair point, culture definitely played a part in our 4 superbowl losses. There was a complacency there that you simply do not get with teams that win consistently.

[bmur66]

Culture is a pyramid that is defined at the very top. What that culture is has an indirect affect on winning or losing. I would suppose that a team like the Patriots has a winning culture because they have been winning for an extended period of time. Or maybe they just have a good quarterback.

[CountDorkula]

Culture is a pyramid that is defined at the very top. What that culture is has an indirect affect on winning or losing. I would suppose that a team like the Patriots has a winning culture because they have been winning for an extended period of time. Or maybe they just have a good quarterback.

 

It's definitely this.

 

When Brady retires, the pats become an average team.

The Buffalo Bills history is a losing habit (culture) as their overall record from day one is 400 w, 460 L, 8 t. IMO they have to start winning and get over .500 which will start developing the winning culture that every fan wants for their individual teams. It starts at the top (owners & front office) and ends with the players. Until that happens, our culture will never change, imo. GO BILLS

its crazy, the time with "The best culture" was the time when the bills had their best quarterback.

 

Also that "culture" sucked donkey and was known as the bickering Bills.

[BuffaloHokie13]

 

It's definitely this.

 

When Brady retires, the pats become an average team.

its crazy, the time with "The best culture" was the time when the bills had their best quarterback.

 

Also that "culture" sucked donkey and was known as the bickering Bills.

They may have bickered, but they also went into every game believing it would end in a victory for them. IMO

[Royale with Cheese]

 

It's definitely this.

 

When Brady retires, the pats become an average team.

its crazy, the time with "The best culture" was the time when the bills had their best quarterback.

 

Also that "culture" sucked donkey and was known as the bickering Bills.

 

The bickering Bills culture was 1989. They shed that during the Super Bowl years.

[wiskibreth]

 

It's definitely this.

 

When Brady retires, the pats become an average team.

its crazy, the time with "The best culture" was the time when the bills had their best quarterback.

 

Also that "culture" sucked donkey and was known as the bickering Bills.

 

"Culture" doesn't mean everyone always gets along or disputes don't exist. At the end of they day they were still cohesive enough to make sure it mattered when the rubber hit the road. And it also means that the culture was strong enough, particularly in leadership (and Kelly was a key leader -especially on the field), that they were still able to come together and win despite their personal differences.

Edited August 17, 2017 by wiskibreth

[DrDawkinstein]

 

It's definitely this.

 

When Brady retires, the pats become an average team.

its crazy, the time with "The best culture" was the time when the bills had their best quarterback.

 

Also that "culture" sucked donkey and was known as the bickering Bills.

 

I dont think they had a good culture at all back then. It was loosey-goosey, and that's what our band of ultra-talented dummies wanted, but if anything it shows the perfect example of "talent will only get you so far".

 

That loose culture didnt set curfews, and didnt set a tone for players to be self-accountable. The result was Kelly & Co. out partying to the point they could barely play, and 4 wasted Super Bowl appearances.

[GoBills808]

Culture is getting the best QB in the world to play for you at $14M a year.

[wiskibreth]

Culture is getting the best QB in the world to play for you at $14M a year.

culture attribute: selflessness

[Jasovon]

culture attribute: selflessness

The money that Kraft pays to a business Brady owns probably helps that selflessness to be honest.

 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/12/19/patriots-pay-business-owned-tom-brady-and-partner-with-dubious-past/C4zMzcPDgU62WMMg10qeBL/story.html

[CountDorkula]

culture attribute: selflessness

Culture Attribute: My wife makes double what I do.

[wiskibreth]

The money that Kraft pays to a business Brady owns probably helps that selflessness to be honest.

 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/12/19/patriots-pay-business-owned-tom-brady-and-partner-with-dubious-past/C4zMzcPDgU62WMMg10qeBL/story.html

 

Probably so.

 

Culture Attribute: My wife makes double what I do.

 

Doesn't matter, he's still taking less salary than market value for the betterment of the team. He could strap them like Brees if he wanted to.

[Rico]

It's well documented on this board that the piss-poor, losing culture on this team started at the top with Ralph. Peg's mistake upon taking over was keeping Ralph's stooges in charge of the team: no change at all, only continuity of the same losing mentality. This is the 1st year in forever where none of Ralph's guys are touching football operations, thank you Jesus.

[Magox]

It's well documented on this board that the piss-poor, losing culture on this team started at the top with Ralph. Peg's mistake upon taking over was keeping Ralph's stooges in charge of the team: no change at all, only continuity of the same losing mentality. This is the 1st year in forever where none of Ralph's guys are touching football operations, thank you Jesus.

 

 

This is something that I think doesn't get recognized enough. Good post Rico!

[DrDawkinstein]

It's well documented on this board that the piss-poor, losing culture on this team started at the top with Ralph. Peg's mistake upon taking over was keeping Ralph's stooges in charge of the team: no change at all, only continuity of the same losing mentality. This is the 1st year in forever where none of Ralph's guys are touching football operations, thank you Jesus.

 

To be a little fair to Pegula, he didnt have anyone to replace them with and had no idea how to find them. And replacing an entire NFL front office is no easy lift. Hence his trust in the guys who were here, and Rex who has lived most of his life in football.

 

Once he settled in, saw how things work, and got his hands on that advisory list, everyone was gone.

 

Jury is still out though, obviously.

Edited August 17, 2017 by DrDareustein

[Jasovon]

It's well documented on this board that the piss-poor, losing culture on this team started at the top with Ralph. Peg's mistake upon taking over was keeping Ralph's stooges in charge of the team: no change at all, only continuity of the same losing mentality. This is the 1st year in forever where none of Ralph's guys are touching football operations, thank you Jesus.

Great point here, and the recent trades are complete proof that the old regime is gone.

[BillsFan4]

The bickering Bills culture was 1989. They shed that during the Super Bowl years.

Yup. The Bills players - Kelly, Thurman, Smith, Reed etc. - have all talked about that. How the "bickering Bills" actually kind of helped lead to change and really galvanize them as a team. Which they all site (that closeness and culture that developed) as a big reason why they went to 4 SB's in a row.

[CountDorkula]

 

Probably so.

 

 

Doesn't matter, he's still taking less salary than market value for the betterment of the team. He could strap them like Brees if he wanted to.

Hold on here. He did not take less money, it was structured in a way that it all didn't hit the cap. there is a massive difference. He actually made more money by doing it.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/tom-brady-made-a-brilliant-move-that-will-save-him-millions-while-hes-out/

Great point here, and the recent trades are complete proof that the old regime is gone.

and this regime will fare the same if they do not find a franchise QB.

[Jasovon]

Hold on here. He did not take less money, it was structured in a way that it all didn't hit the cap. there is a massive difference. He actually made more money by doing it.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/tom-brady-made-a-brilliant-move-that-will-save-him-millions-while-hes-out/

and this regime will fare the same if they do not find a franchise QB.

You are absolutely right, but I cannot believe we don't take a first round QB with the draft capital we have. The only way this doesn't happen is if Tyrod is an All Pro or we win the SuperBowl.

[wiskibreth]

Hold on here. He did not take less money, it was structured in a way that it all didn't hit the cap. there is a massive difference. He actually made more money by doing it.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/tom-brady-made-a-brilliant-move-that-will-save-him-millions-while-hes-out/

and this regime will fare the same if they do not find a franchise QB.

 

He's netting about $14.5MM/year in cash 2016 through 2019. If you can't see that's WAY under market, then I can't help you.

Edited August 17, 2017 by wiskibreth

[atlbillsfan1975]

Yes it does. Losing and winning is contagious. It's not some magical spell. It is however a way the operation operates that leads to one or the other!

[transplantbillsfan]

Yes. Of course it does. It's what I hope they're building and why I'm still hopeful about the season.

[Billsfansinceday1]

Like it or not NE has a culture and so does Pittsburgh. I guess I am saying yes.

[sjjr]

Yes and in football it matters more than other sports.

[jwhit34]

A lot of people have responded that coaching is more important than culture. The head coach is the most responsible for establishing the team culture.

 

It is very important - there are a lot of teams in all the major sports that have great talent but are underachievers and it's mostly because they do not have a winning culture.

[Elite Poster]

. All of them have or had culture. You think Manning or Brady didn't establish culture? You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Manning/Brady establishing culture? What you meant to say is in a league where so much hinges on the success of the QB, when you have a good one, everyone dials in.

 

What happened to the Cavaliers culture of being pure garbage when they got a **** load of talent? What about the Miami heat culture that came and left with some of the league's top talent?

 

Its so damn easy. When you have the talent to win, chances are everyone will buy in and simply put, try harder. Stop trying to be old timer farts with this - its a game, the people who are better at the game win 98% of the time.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Elite Poster

[Sandy McFiddish]

Culture is everything. Typically the teams with a winning culture can play like garbage all game and pull it out in the end, while losing culture teams can play almost lights out all game and find a way to lose. What is huge for us this year is everyone buying into the system, sans Darby, that is always the first step.

[oldmanfan]

 

Manning/Brady establishing culture? What you meant to say is in a league where so much hinges on the success of the QB, when you have a good one, everyone dials in.

 

What happened to the Cavaliers culture of being pure garbage when they got a **** load of talent? What about the Miami heat culture that came and left with some of the league's top talent?

 

Its so damn easy. When you have the talent to win, chances are everyone will buy in and simply put, try harder. Stop trying to be old timer farts with this - its a game, the people who are better at the game win 98% of the time.

Old timer farts as you put it have wisdom. You should listen and learn. I live just outside Indy and there is absolutely no question that Manning established a culture in the Colts. His talent aside he demanded work ethic and excellence from the guys around him and established that culture and mindset. Any cursory reading of the success of Brandy and Belichicks teams will tell you the same.

 

Do you need talent? Sure, in any organization. Do you also need a culture that optimizes use of talent and that maximizes effort of all employees? Absolutely.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

 

He's netting about $14.5MM/year in cash 2016 through 2019. If you can't see that's WAY under market, then I can't help you.

 

totally. He's the most underpaid player in the league. He doesn't care though - endorsements more than cover the difference I'm sure.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

I believe that talent wins in sports.

 

How many years have we heard in Buffalo that this old player is going to teach the young guys how to do it?

 

Never makes any difference.

 

Kelsey was supposed to be a role model, so was Fred, so is Eric Wood, so was TO, Orton was going to teach EJ.

 

 

Its talent that matters. Talent drives winning. That's all it is.

[KD in CA]

Culture is critical to success for any organization: family, work, sports, etc.

 

Obviously it's not the only requirement for success, but the odds of success without it are very low.

He's netting about $14.5MM/year in cash 2016 through 2019. If you can't see that's WAY under market, then I can't help you.

I'd bet my children Brady has a handshake deal with Kraft for significant post-retirement income as part of his deal.

[CountDorkula]

Culture is critical to success for any organization: family, work, sports, etc.

 

Obviously it's not the only requirement for success, but the odds of success without it are very low.

So if the bills have this amazing culture this year, what are their chances of the playoffs?

I believe that talent wins in sports.

 

How many years have we heard in Buffalo that this old player is going to teach the young guys how to do it?

 

Never makes any difference.

 

Kelsey was supposed to be a role model, so was Fred, so is Eric Wood, so was TO, Orton was going to teach EJ.

 

 

Its talent that matters. Talent drives winning. That's all it is.

It's been proven time and time again too.

 

Culture is raised with talent, The bills could have all the culture in the world, but until they find a QB they will be a below average team, at best.