Go on record regarding the trades

[Sig1Hunter]

Emotionally, it sucks. The excitement for a fresh season is suddenly gone. Couldn't even get to week 4, like usual, before that happened.

 

Intellectually, I understand. More waiting to see playoff caliber football is getting extremely tiresome though.

[Buddy Hix]

2017 was trending towards a 7-8 win season yesterday and now a 4-5 win season...

 

I'll take the extra draft picks and hope to hit on a franchise QB in next year's draft. I'm fine with the trades and am happy this team seems to have a direction.

[JM57]

I'm a STH and I'll say on the record that I'm on board.

 

It sucks, I liked Sammy. I hated he had injury troubles but don't blame him for that. I think he has an enormous amount of talent. I think it's going to go to waste in LA with Goff under center and he's going to have to sign a 1 year prove it deal for next season, a la Jeffery or Pryor, even if he stays healthy.

 

I think we can say the same thing about Matthews and Gaines vs. Watkins and Darby. Less pure talent perhaps, but a better scheme fit and possibly lower cost on contract number 2. Gaines is a zone corner, Matthews is a prototype West Coast offense WR.

 

I like Tyrod, but he has his limitations. I'll gladly take a season of sitting in my seats with a "come what may" attitude if it means that I'm watching a potential franchise QB next year. Unless this team somehow outperforms expectations immensely, they aren't making the playoffs.

 

Two picks in each of the first three rounds should provide Beane with more than enough ammo to move up as far as he needs to get a franchise QB. I'm 29 years old and barely remember anything before the Home Run Throwback. The first game I remember attending, Todd Collins was the QB. I don't remember the good old glory years. All I know is sadness and mediocrity. I'm ready for Darnold, or Rosen, or Allen, or Rudolph. Let's do this.

Edited August 11, 2017 by JM57

[Guest NeckBeard]

I wish there was a maybe here. I am glad that the Bills got something of value from Watkins. I am glad that they have a bunch of picks in 2018, where I really hope that they don't draft players that don't make sense (this is an open statement, because who knows how this season will play out in terms of which positions need replacements, if THAT QB will be available to draft, etc).

 

I am somewhat boggling about Darby: given what they gave up, and what they got back.

 

Still, this is the dream scenario for many Bills' fans. They are finally doing something new, and they have rolled the dice here, since this year's draft, in a major way. Now let's hope it pays off.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Basically the haul is:

 

Sammy for Mathews

+ production, availability

- flash, unrealized potential

 

Darby for Gains

+ run support (scheme critical)

- man press (not scheme critical)

- contract lock

 

A 6th for a 2nd and a 3rd

 

The sheer economics of this move is pretty rock solid, provided these guys can prove they know how to draft. Once you get beyond the emotions of the loss of a bonafide "superstar"

[thurst44]

I like the trades long term (only the draft picks). Mathews is one year here and gone as a FA and Gaines is of no consequence.

 

This year is going to be very painful to watch - think nearly 2016 Browns bad. Sadly, the thing that could screw everything up for next year would be Tyrod sandlotting his way to 5 or 6 wins thus keeping us out of reach of a good QB prospect next year.

Watkins will be a FA next year and they did not expect that they would be willing to pay enough to keep him.

Really? Why particularly this year?! LeSean McCoy's still there and has better blockers. The Bills were the #7 points-scoring offense last year with WRs getting hurt every week (and Watkins mostly not playing)? There's a good chance this defense is better with a healthy Lawson and Dareus and McD/Frazier taking over from the Ryan Family Circus.

 

I can see expecting a 7-9 or 6-10 season, but why would you feel this team is historically bad when it's not much different than last year's, except maybe better (or at least more sane) coaching?!

[Boatdrinks]

If signability was a concern why didn't they exercise the option????

Exactly, Coach. That would have been the best move and a better bet on realizing some payoff for the high price paid to draft SW. Surely there is another player that could have fetched a 2nd round pick on the roster to facilitate a move up if needed.

[OldTimer1960]

So franchise tag him.

 

What is so wrong with keeping good young players? They now have to find another #1 receiver.

The point is that they weren't willing to pay him what the Franchise tag would require.

[thurst44]

2017 was trending towards a 7-8 win season yesterday and now a 4-5 win season...

 

I'll take the extra draft picks and hope to hit on a franchise QB in next year's draft. I'm fine with the trades and am happy this team seems to have a direction.

Let's keep in mind that last year, Watkins had fewer than 500 yards and Darby was lit up like a torch. I really, truly liked the players and it pains me to see them go, but I don't see this as that impactful on this season as people think.

[OldTimer1960]

Really? Why particularly this year?! LeSean McCoy's still there and has better blockers. The Bills were the #7 points-scoring offense last year with WRs getting hurt every week (and Watkins mostly not playing)? There's a good chance this defense is better with a healthy Lawson and Dareus and McD/Frazier taking over from the Ryan Family Circus.

 

I can see expecting a 7-9 or 6-10 season, but why would you feel this team is historically bad when it's not much different than last year's, except maybe better (or at least more sane) coaching?!

My view is that the LBs and secondary are going to be very big weaknesses. With Darby gone, you have Seymour or Gaines (both downgrades) starting at corner. One CB injured and I don't know how they could even play nickel. No safety depth and only 2 starting caliber LBs on the team.

[Roundybout]

At first, it was a kick in the nuts.

 

Thinking about it more made me realize that this was the right thing to do for the long run.

[voodoo poonani]

Limited options here. Dunno if i like it or dislike it. Certainly shocked by it. Is it a moneyball play? Idk.

[Adam]

I'm on record as neutral to ok with the Darby trade, but I think trading Sammy was a huge mistake.

 

I think his value is much higher than what he's shown so far...some his fault, but alot is on the QB as well. This trade will make us look worse than trading Lynch if he stays healthy, and this move hurts the offense for the foreseeable future.

Yes, but if we have a piece that we think may be good right now, with a big payday coming, then we have a problem. What if we invest a lot to keep him and don't end up with the other parts. I'm for the full reset and build everything from the ground up. Sammy had some skills but I think he was very overrated

[Perk71]

Basically the haul is:

Sammy for Mathews

+ production, availability

- flash, unrealized potential

Darby for Gains

+ run support (scheme critical)

- man press (not scheme critical)

- contract lock

A 6th for a 2nd and a 3rd

The sheer economics of this move is pretty rock solid, provided these guys can prove they know how to draft. Once you get beyond the emotions of the loss of a bonafide "superstar"

Great, logical post

[billsfan1960]

Imo, these are good trades for the future with the additional picks in 2018. The last 17 years, there was no direction coming from the front office. I believe this team will be better than last year. Imo, the future is finally looking bright for this franchise. GO BILLS

[Big C]

I say no.

 

To evaluate the Watkins trade, I think back to the baffling decision to not exercise his option. If Watkins had his 5th year on his deal, we would've gotten more for him, as we would've been trading a longer rental.

 

The Bills tanked Watkins' value by not exercising it. Then sold low. Idiotic. I personally thought he was an idiot as a person, but a talented idiot. He was arguably our youngest, best player. The exact player you keep in a rebuild, not sell low to the highest bidder.

 

Darby on the other hand is different. Still say no, but if he was not having a good camp, couldn't do much in zones, I get it. As a superb athlete 1 year removed from a great year, I still say no, but I get it.

 

I don't think that tanks his value. The team that traded for him is now free to work on an extension on their own terms and still have an out if he gets hurt again. Or, if the team is a so-called "competitor," they can bring the guy in for a year and pursue their title and aren't worried about crippling themselves financially in the next year or beyond. Frankly, I'm surprised the Rams went for him because they don't fit into the latter category (unless we are all sleeping on them this year).

[Jauronimo]

Of all the WRs on the Iggles roster, why J-Matt? Maybe take a flier on Agholor. J-Matt is just a faster version of 2017 Boldin except with crappy hands.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Jauronimo

[Billsguy]

Short term the trade is a negative.

 

Longer term the trade has the potential to be positive.

 

The Bills are clearly looking to the future. The outlook for 2018 is to draft a top QB in the top 5 of the draft. As a result, Tyrod Taylor will be history. It will take the new QB a couple years to get enough seasoning to be effective.

 

The Bills playoff drought might end around 2020 if things go well. The Bills have carved out a place in NFL history for futility. Go Bills!

 

 

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

So Quinn early looks like I am solidly in the majority and not being a contrarian

[Albwan]

Yes. The Watkins deal was particularly good. The team was moving on from him after this season and he didn't want to stay here. We got what will almost certainly be a very high 2nd round pick and a CB who showed real potential in 2014 prior to injury in return. That's stealing.

 

This.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Albwan

[SectionC3]

At first I was unhappy. But, upon further review, I've come around to really like what happened today.

 

Maybe Gaines is a better scheme fit than Darby, and it was best to get something of significant value for Sammy before what now seems like his inevitable departure.

 

There are other variables, too. We don't know what the offensive scheme is going to look like this year. It may be that we want to stretch the field horizontally more than vertically, and that we didn't need someone of Sammy's talents for that. Besides, looking at Taylor's splits, he's most effective out of 2WR and 2TE sets. So maybe we were going to see "bigger" formations this year anyway with the idea of throwing off of play action and out of either 7- or 3-step drops. Not sure the speed element of Sammy's game is essential to that formula.

 

We also don't know how Sammy and Darby were perceived in the locker room, so perhaps there is some addition by subtraction. And, given the positional inflow/outflow, this is not a tank move. If, on the other hand, we move McCoy, Incognito, and/or Hughes, I might feel differently.

 

Finally, given how this regime (rightfully) values draft picks, I wouldn't be so comfortable if I was Holmes/Davis/Ducasse. Maybe we even see those guys get cut before they can get hurt to secure that extra third round pick. If accumulation of assets toward a trade for the opportunity to draft a franchise QB is the goal, then it makes sense to excise those players from the roster immediately.

[papazoid]

Sammy was GONE in 2018......was never signing with bills.

 

this is about acquiring the assets needed to move up into the Top 5 of 2018 draft and getting a QB

[sullim4]

I don't understand the people who say that we were headed for a 7-9 or 8-8 season but now are looking at 4-12.

 

Watkins is not worth 4 wins. Shady McCoy? Sure. But not Sammy. Taylor never made him a consistent target and Sammy was off the field way too often.

 

I like the trade. They get a high second rounder for someone who was going to leave next year unless we used the franchise tag (in which case he becomes a malcontent).

[Buddo]

I'm fine with the Darby move - seems like decent value. I don't believe he's a 'bad scheme fit', for one moment, but I can see he has more value in a 'man' scheme, hence a trade that gets us value.

 

I simply don't like the Watkins trade. If he gets injured again, then hindsight will say it's a good move. If he doesn't, then he will be the cause of much angst over the years, as he can be an absolute beast, if he stays healthy.

 

Sometimes I really have to wonder about the mentality of all of the organizations 'football guys'. Did they not see what happens when you don't actually have a quality WR to throw to, when you aren't running the football? Or when you have to try and get down the field in a hurry? Things get ugly, quickly. And they probably will this season, again.

 

Watkins could have been a game changer for the Bills, especially as he and Taylor seem like they have developed chemistry/timing.

 

Talking of chemistry, I wonder what it's going to do to the rest of the team, or more particularly, the offensive side of things. While I'm sure there's a bunch of no name and no good WRs on the roster thinking it's a chance for them to stick, I doubt the O-Line and RBs will be being very impressed.

[SectionC3]

2017 was trending towards a 7-8 win season yesterday and now a 4-5 win season...

 

I'll take the extra draft picks and hope to hit on a franchise QB in next year's draft. I'm fine with the trades and am happy this team seems to have a direction.

 

I'm not sure why there is this sentiment that the trade will cut our win total in half. Darby didn't play well last year, and Sammy missed much of the year, anyway. And, it's not like the replacements for either player are so poor that we necessarily will lose an additional three to four games.

 

Come to think of it, I'm struggling to think of games that Sammy won for us over the years. Maybe the Vikings game during his rookie season, the Lions OT game, and perhaps the Jets road game a few years ago (with the abuse of Revis on the critical conversion). I guess I just don't see him as worth three to four wins a year. And I certainly don't see Darby that way.

[BillsFan692]

Let's go on record as to our feelings on the deals today. There are no bs in between answers either. It is a yes or a no. If you were the GM and had the exact same deals on the table would you have made the moves? We are not seperating them out either because they are tied together.

 

Yes, a 2nd and 3rd round pick, and reasonable starting caliber players to replace the losses, I can't see how you don't take that if you are the brand new regime.

[SectionC3]

I'm fine with the Darby move - seems like decent value. I don't believe he's a 'bad scheme fit', for one moment, but I can see he has more value in a 'man' scheme, hence a trade that gets us value.

 

I simply don't like the Watkins trade. If he gets injured again, then hindsight will say it's a good move. If he doesn't, then he will be the cause of much angst over the years, as he can be an absolute beast, if he stays healthy.

 

Sometimes I really have to wonder about the mentality of all of the organizations 'football guys'. Did they not see what happens when you don't actually have a quality WR to throw to, when you aren't running the football? Or when you have to try and get down the field in a hurry? Things get ugly, quickly. And they probably will this season, again.

 

Watkins could have been a game changer for the Bills, especially as he and Taylor seem like they have developed chemistry/timing.

 

Talking of chemistry, I wonder what it's going to do to the rest of the team, or more particularly, the offensive side of things. While I'm sure there's a bunch of no name and no good WRs on the roster thinking it's a chance for them to stick, I doubt the O-Line and RBs will be being very impressed.

Locker room chemistry is a good point. Time will tell.

[Big C]

Basically the haul is:

 

Sammy for Mathews

+ production, availability

- flash, unrealized potential

 

Darby for Gains

+ run support (scheme critical)

- man press (not scheme critical)

- contract lock

 

A 6th for a 2nd and a 3rd

 

The sheer economics of this move is pretty rock solid, provided these guys can prove they know how to draft. Once you get beyond the emotions of the loss of a bonafide "superstar"

 

I'm more inclined to agree here. It depends on what we do with the picks, of course. But the logic is sound.

 

Sammy could light it up this year, but he has so far shown no leadership and he seems to me like the opposite of a guy you want to pay during a rebuild. He may not be an OBJ-type diva, but so far he's spoken about how he isn't being targeted enough and about how much money he deserves, etc. and not much else. Not once in the time he's been here has it seemed like he was the face of our franchise or even wanted to be. Tyrod, Shady, Kyle, Wood and a few others have totally embraced their role on the team and have backed it up on the field (granted, to varying degrees). If we had traded any of those guys I'd be more concerned about a tank job than I am now.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Big C

[BillsFan692]

 

I'm not sure why there is this sentiment that the trade will cut our win total in half. Darby didn't play well last year, and Sammy missed much of the year, anyway. And, it's not like the replacements for either player are so poor that we necessarily will lose an additional three to four games.

 

Come to think of it, I'm struggling to think of games that Sammy won for us over the years. Maybe the Vikings game during his rookie season, the Lions OT game, and perhaps the Jets road game a few years ago (with the abuse of Revis on the critical conversion). I guess I just don't see him as worth three to four wins a year. And I certainly don't see Darby that way.

 

I certainly remember Sammy dropping a few critical passes in game winning drives.

[thurst44]

My view is that the LBs and secondary are going to be very big weaknesses. With Darby gone, you have Seymour or Gaines (both downgrades) starting at corner. One CB injured and I don't know how they could even play nickel. No safety depth and only 2 starting caliber LBs on the team.

Seymour has played solid football for a rookie, Shareece Wright and Leonard Johnson are actually very respected veterans, and the cornerbacks played pretty outstanding last year. EJ Gaines has played two decent years. At safety, I agree it's a concern, but Rambo played that part quite effectively a couple years ago. If Hyde gets hurt and/or Poyer bombs, maybe one of the unknowns pops up. As for LBs, I'm concerned, but were you concerned when Zach Brown and Lorenzo Alexander were going to be starters? Preston Brown has been stepping up like his rookie season, Humber seems to be playing well. Hodges has played quite well in his career (83 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 ints last year) and I'm sorry but I'm not yet giving up on Reggie Ragland yet. He had a much better pre-season game than people are giving him credit for (or at least less bad), and contrary to some people's revisionist opinions, he was highly regarded and more than just someone "Rex wanted."

 

Sure, a lot of things need to go right to be a great team, but it would take a lot more to go wrong to be historically terrible, and I still am a bit baffled as to a 5-11 ceiling.

 

Side note: before we decide who is a "starting caliber" LB (and without even getting into the tale of the Lorax that's only one year old), let's consider this character study. Let's say you just signed a LB who in his first five seasons had 3 sacks and averaged roughly 20 tackles per year...would you be happy about acquiring him? What if you were told you were picking up James Harrison going into his prime? Ok, it's an extreme example, but LBs with seemingly light resumes having solid or even Pro Bowl seasons isn't that rare. Heck, it happened on the Bills (you could argue twice) just last year.

[Albwan]

Honestly, I think it's a great move. IMHO the team is (was) mediocre and going nowhere.

I love Shady to me he's the lone shining star of the group, but the guy is being wasted in Buffalo.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Albwan

[Big C]

 

I certainly remember Sammy dropping a few critical passes in game winning drives.

 

Also shying away from contact and going down easy.

[SectionC3]

Seymour has played solid football for a rookie, Shareece Wright and Leonard Johnson are actually very respected veterans, and the cornerbacks played pretty outstanding last year. EJ Gaines has played two decent years. At safety, I agree it's a concern, but Rambo played that part quite effectively a couple years ago. If Hyde gets hurt and/or Poyer bombs, maybe one of the unknowns pops up. As for LBs, I'm concerned, but were you concerned when Zach Brown and Lorenzo Alexander were going to be starters? Preston Brown has been stepping up like his rookie season, Humber seems to be playing well. Hodges has played quite well in his career (83 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 ints last year) and I'm sorry but I'm not yet giving up on Reggie Ragland yet. He had a much better pre-season game than people are giving him credit for (or at least less bad), and contrary to some people's revisionist opinions, he was highly regarded and more than just someone "Rex wanted."

 

Sure, a lot of things need to go right to be a great team, but it would take a lot more to go wrong to be historically terrible, and I still am a bit baffled as to a 5-11 ceiling.

 

Side note: before we decide who is a "starting caliber" LB (and without even getting into the tale of the Lorax that's only one year old), let's consider this character study. Let's say you just signed a LB who in his first five seasons had 3 sacks and averaged roughly 20 tackles per year...would you be happy about acquiring him? What if you were told you were picking up James Harrison going into his prime? Ok, it's an extreme example, but LBs with seemingly light resumes having solid or even Pro Bowl seasons isn't that rare. Heck, it happened on the Bills (you could argue twice) just last year.

Agreed on LB. What did you think of Hodges last night? From my vantage point in the stadium he moved well. But we definitely don't have a ton of speed there (or in our competent WRs, for that matter).

[RobRyanFan]

I think these moves are brilliant. While he is a downgrade, I don't think that losing Darby and plugging in Gaines won't cause us to lose any games, especially because Gaines is way better in zone defenses like McDermott's than Darby. I even think that Matthews might be an upgrade over Watkins due to consistency and less of an injury history. Plus we gain 2nd and 3rd round picks and lose a 6th.

[xsoldier54]

I absolutely love these moves. The WR corps for this year will be deeper than last year and I'll take Boldin, Jones and Matthews over an injured Watkins, Woods and Goodwin any day of the week. I think the addition of Gaines and subtraction of Darby is a wash. And having two picks in each of the first three rounds next year sets us up for long term success. Bills were big winners today in every way I can imagine.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

I'm more inclined to agree here. It depends on what we do with the picks, of course. But the logic is sound.

 

Sammy could light it up this year, but he has so far shown no leadership and he seems to me like the opposite of a guy you want to pay during a rebuild. He may not be an OBJ-type diva, but so far he's spoken about how he isn't being targeted enough and about how much money he deserves, etc. and not much else. Not once in the time he's been here has it seemed like he was the face of our franchise or even wanted to be. Tyrod, Shady, Kyle, Wood and a few others have totally embraced their role on the team and have backed it up on the field (granted, to varying degrees). If we had traded any of those guys I'd be more concerned about a tank job than I am now.

I shyed away from the leadership and diva stuff in the minuses, because I didn't want to pile on, but I agree with your synopsis.

 

This coach and GM are trying to build a TEAM. Not a roster of talented guys that don't compliment each other but instead where the whole exceeds the sum of the parts.

 

The open point of course is to see if they know what he he'll they are doing.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[BUFFALOKIE]

I'm fine with the move. I don't think that Sammy or Darby were the key to the playoffs. I bet Zay steps up big time and Q makes us forget all about sammy.

[Perry Turtle]

Before the trade the Bills projected needs in the draft were franchise QB, OT, LB and maybe S.

 

After the trade, their needs will be Franchise QB, outside WR, CB, OT, LB, and safety.

 

Another draft where OL will not be adressed thanks to other needs.

 

This trade is more of the same. Running to stand still.

[mead107]

I love the trade.

[BUFFALOKIE]

I will bet anyone here my entire yearly salary that the Bills will not lose any more games in 2017 because of these trades....any takers?

 

I will one up my own bet: I guarantee the Buffalo Bills will lose no more than 16 games this year. I'd bet your life on it. Takers?

Edited August 11, 2017 by BUFFALOKIE