no offensive line talk....

[billsredneck1]

has everyone forgotten the rt? ...or oline overall?...or as it relates to the draft?

 

in one of my draft fantasies, i'd like to see a trade down twice.

 

once to cleveland for their 4th...and whatever else we might be able to get and then...

 

to washington who badly needs a new receiving core and has picks....for a 3rd and a 4th?

 

we get the richie incognito of rts with garrett bolles. big nasty day one starter.

 

i would even hope to think about maybe one of the top 3 centers with one of the extra picks.

 

it doesn't matter who we bring in or draft at all the other positions. we are an injury or two away from suck up front....or we can have the foundation of a great line for some time to come. don't forget the oline dougie!

Edited April 7, 2017 by billsredneck1

[Rocky Landing]

Well, our run game was pretty good last year. The left side is pretty damn solid. Wood should be 100%. Miller should continue to improve. And, idk, I feel like Mills improved, as well. Am I wrong? I'm not saying the O-line should be ignored-- we've seen the folly in that over the years!

But, with Tyrod backing out of the pocket on every snap, and with our issues at so many other positions... yeah, not the top concern...

[Kirby Jackson]

OL is just down the list. Mills improved some and the rest of the line is fine. The brought back Groy and brought in Ducasse. They probably, already, have an NFL quality OL that won't make the team. If they take any (which I am doubting) it will be a tackle late.

[LeGOATski]

Wouldn't mind an OL pick.

 

They need to get more young talent in there.

[DrinkinBuddy]

I think we need a new right tackle but I don't think it's coming this off-season. Perhaps a late round pick to compete.

 

Too many larger needs. We need starters at WR, WILL, CB and safety. Depth is a huge issue in the back 7 as well.

 

While Mills isn't very good, I think he'll have to do for now. Maybe CuJo can make progress this off-season to playing on the right. Last tackle roster spot's probably a competition from a late pick or UDFA and cheap UFAs. I would think Henderson gets cut.

 

Not ideal but could be worse.

[BuffaloHokie13]

bad draft for tackles too

[YoloinOhio]

bad draft for tackles too

awful! That's why FA was crazy for the OL.

[NoSaint]

OL is just down the list. Mills improved some and the rest of the line is fine. The brought back Groy and brought in Ducasse. They probably, already, have an NFL quality OL that won't make the team. If they take any (which I am doubting) it will be a tackle late.

Yup.

 

To the OP-- every position group is at best an injury or two away from disaster... but a couple dont even have that benefit at the moment.

[rant_and_go]

I think we need a new right tackle but I don't think it's coming this off-season. Perhaps a late round pick to compete.

 

Too many larger needs. We need starters at WR, WILL, CB and safety. Depth is a huge issue in the back 7 as well.

 

While Mills isn't very good, I think he'll have to do for now. Maybe CuJo can make progress this off-season to playing on the right. Last tackle roster spot's probably a competition from a late pick or UDFA and cheap UFAs. I would think Henderson gets cut.

 

Not ideal but could be worse.

Hmmm I'm seeing a trend over the past 17 years. WR, OLB, CBs last about 3 years. Always rotating them out.

 

Good linemen last decades. If QB isn't there, build the best line in the league. WR, OLBs and CBs in the NFL are a dime a dozen. And the best at those positions are vets who just end up getting the calls. The penalties, and the first down droughts make our line one of the worse.

[jr1]

Cyrus at RT

[Lucien K]

Last I read Henderson is getting healthier. He has 4 suspension games left and should compete at RT.

[papazoid]

#1 - last years team , the RT (mills) was the weakest starter on the team....followed by #2WR & Safety

 

#2- if the season started today, as the team is currently structured.....#1 CB(??) is the weakest starter

 

#3- this team has more "needs" than it can fill with quality....#1CB, #1RT, #2WR & QB of the future(if you don't believe in TT).

 

It just feels to me like Whaley's game plan is to reasonably fill all the needs in free agency....so that he can use #10 on the QB of the future.

Edited April 8, 2017 by papazoid

[cd1]

#1 - last years team , the RT (mills) was the weakest starter on the team....followed by #2WR & Safety

 

#2- if the season started today, as the team is currently structured.....#1 CB(??) is the weakest starter

 

#3- this team has more "needs" than it can fill with quality....#1CB, #1RT, #2WR & QB of the future(if you don't believe in TT).

 

It just feels to me like Whaley's game plan is to reasonably fill all the needs in free agency....so that he can use #10 on the QB of the future.

 

 

NO QB @ 10

 

Wishing don't make it so - if it did EJ would be our guy. This is not the draft to bet the farm on a QB.

 

All that said, I do believe we will draft a QB, but more like rd 3 if there is anyone interesting still there.

 

imho

[thebandit27]

Hmmm I'm seeing a trend over the past 17 years. WR, OLB, CBs last about 3 years. Always rotating them out.

 

Good linemen last decades. If QB isn't there, build the best line in the league. WR, OLBs and CBs in the NFL are a dime a dozen. And the best at those positions are vets who just end up getting the calls. The penalties, and the first down droughts make our line one of the worse.

WRs and CBS are a dime a dozen? Is that why guys like AJ Bouye--who has never been a starting corner, get as much as franchise LTs on the open market, and WRs easily get more than LTs?

 

Is there any data to back up the idea that OLmen have longevity where other positions don't?

[Beef Jerky]

Another year for Mills O-Line is least of the teams worries.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Beef Jerky

[rant_and_go]

WRs and CBS are a dime a dozen? Is that why guys like AJ Bouye--who has never been a starting corner, get as much as franchise LTs on the open market, and WRs easily get more than LTs?

 

Is there any data to back up the idea that OLmen have longevity where other positions don't?

That comes from teams believing they need that one missing piece. With Jax, it's a make or break year for Bortles.

 

Legion of boom lasted 3 years before Maxwell was traded. Rodgers good group of 5 WRs lasted 2 years, and then were gone. I'm having a hard time thinking of any other group of WRs or CBs that a NFL team builds around and wins. At that position, it's 1 break out year, 2-3 re-living the glory days, then FAs where there are more busts than success stories.

 

Cowboys Oline got immediate impact when they started building it, and won games for 3 years, and now entering their prime. Raiders did the same. Oline is needed before the QB. It wins games and has longevity and only needs time and coaching to build. It's a move that makes sense for the Bills. Taylor has flaws with his game that are not going to be fixed in a year. With OLB, WR or CB the Bills are just a farm club for the rest of the league, and in a few years we have nothing.

 

[thebandit27]

That comes from teams believing they need that one missing piece. With Jax, it's a make or break year for Bortles.

 

Legion of boom lasted 3 years before Maxwell was traded. Rodgers good group of 5 WRs lasted 2 years, and then were gone. I'm having a hard time thinking of any other group of WRs or CBs that a NFL team builds around and wins. At that position, it's 1 break out year, 2-3 re-living the glory days, then FAs where there are more busts than success stories.

 

Cowboys Oline got immediate impact when they started building it, and won games for 3 years, and now entering their prime. Raiders did the same. Oline is needed before the QB. It wins games and has longevity and only needs time and coaching to build. It's a move that makes sense for the Bills. Taylor has flaws with his game that are not going to be fixed in a year. With OLB, WR or CB the Bills are just a farm club for the rest of the league, and in a few years we have nothing.

 

It doesn't come from that at all.

 

The simple fact is that skill position players get more money because they have greater value.

 

That Buffalo put together the best rushing attack in the NFL for 2 consecutive years with a line comprised of 2 street FAs, a mid round pick, a 2nd round LT, and a first rounder at center is a testament to what can be done scheme-wise.

 

Teams that prioritize OL are few and far between, and as we saw in the playoffs, they'll always lose to the teams that have a franchise QB.

 

Anyway, to the topic at hand: yes, the team could use an upgrade at RT, but investing heavily in a position that is routinely filled by late round picks seems like a terrible idea.

 

Case-in-point: the RTs that teams threw huge money at in FA were guys like Remmers and Wagner--late round picks.

[SoCal Deek]

It's the same debate every year. The answer is not to swing and miss on your first two picks no matter what the position. And if you can hit on three out of your top four even better. So which roster spot comes first? It makes little difference in the long run.

 

I maintain that the Bills are suffering from a systemic problem of the revolving door. They've drafted countless Corners just to see them walk away after their rookie deal. This has to stop! And winning solves everything.

[thebandit27]

It's the same debate every year. The answer is not to swing and miss on your first two picks no matter what the position. And if you can hit on three out of your top four even better. So which roster spot comes first? It makes little difference in the long run.

 

I maintain that the Bills are suffering from a systemic problem of the revolving door. They've drafted countless Corners just to see them walk away after their rookie deal. This has to stop! And winning solves everything.

Exactly

 

Stock the roster with great players and worry about everything else later

[Kirby Jackson]

Exactly

 

Stock the roster with great players and worry about everything else later

I was just thinking about it and that's what always happens with the teams picking late in the 1st. They can afford to target specific positions because their rosters don't have a ton of available spots. Then you look at the Browns (to take an extreme example) and they can almost take BPA throughout the draft.

 

I think that the Bills are sort of in between. The level of talent has regressed a little this year but they still have some. They shouldn't go OL, RB or probably DL (outside of great value). They have starting needs at DB, WR and LB.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[Bill_with_it]

A bunch of you arent in tune with the Bills as you would suggest you are:

Cam Robinson from Alabama is scheduled to visit

Brad Seaton from Villanova is scheduled to visit

If Im not mistake they also attended two schools that had dominate Olinemen in addition to other players that were being scouted. Its clear they want to upgrade the oline somewhere and that somewhere is more than likely rt.

[nucci]

has everyone forgotten the rt? ...or oline overall?...or as it relates to the draft?

 

in one of my draft fantasies, i'd like to see a trade down twice.

 

once to cleveland for their 4th...and whatever else we might be able to get and then...

 

to washington who badly needs a new receiving core and has picks....for a 3rd and a 4th?

 

we get the richie incognito of rts with garrett bolles. big nasty day one starter.

 

i would even hope to think about maybe one of the top 3 centers with one of the extra picks.

 

it doesn't matter who we bring in or draft at all the other positions. we are an injury or two away from suck up front....or we can have the foundation of a great line for some time to come. don't forget the oline dougie!

everyone is too concerned about comp picks for 2018.....nothing else matters.............and most O-lines are an injury or 2 away from problems

[yungmack]

COULD the Oline use an upgrade? Sure it could. And so could QB, WR, RB, TE. Improve it until every starter is HOF material. That would be wonderful. But it's the D side of the team that NEEDS an upgrade. I think most would agree that there are big questions at LB, CB and S. And the DT position is heavily reliant on an aging Kyle Williams and a prone-to-screw-up Marcel Dareus. If I'm McD and Whaley, what gives me sleepless nights is the D and that's the area I look to the draft to stabilize before anything else.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

A bunch of you arent in tune with the Bills as you would suggest you are:

Cam Robinson from Alabama is scheduled to visit

Brad Seaton from Villanova is scheduled to visit

If Im not mistake they also attended two schools that had dominate Olinemen in addition to other players that were being scouted. Its clear they want to upgrade the oline somewhere and that somewhere is more than likely rt.

 

.....I think the OL is starting to jell.......takes time for them to come together as a unit....Cowher said numerous times that "it is THE most important unit on the field...it breaks down and nothing works".....and as you said, there will be activity to improve it long term.....Henderson never makes it back IMO....

Edited April 8, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[CEN-CAL17]

I've been saying trade down scenario...

 

To like 16-20

 

Haason Reddick

Mike Williams

Corey Davis

Cam Robinson

 

in that order. Takes who is left

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

I've been saying trade down scenario...

 

To like 16-20

 

Haason Reddick

Mike Williams

Corey Davis

Cam Robinson

 

in that order. Takes who is left

...get into the 20's if you can find a partner and look for another 1st in 2018 along with maybe a 2nd or 3rd in 2017......draft value chart experts will have to do the math....I'm still using flashcards....

[jimmy10]

Isn't OL the hardest position group for rookies to pick up, because of the communication and teamwork necessary? I'm ok shying away from them in the draft. I think we are pretty solid on the line anyway.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Isn't OL the hardest position group for rookies to pick up, because of the communication and teamwork necessary? I'm ok shying away from them in the draft. I think we are pretty solid on the line anyway.

....according to Cowher's assessment of the UNIT, you are absolutely correct.....yet at some point, you need to draft and groom.......

[CookieG]

Well, our run game was pretty good last year. The left side is pretty damn solid. Wood should be 100%. Miller should continue to improve. And, idk, I feel like Mills improved, as well. Am I wrong? I'm not saying the O-line should be ignored-- we've seen the folly in that over the years!

But, with Tyrod backing out of the pocket on every snap, and with our issues at so many other positions... yeah, not the top concern...

 

I agreed with everything you said until you got to Mills. I''ll go further to say that the run blocking, coupled with the play calling in the run game, bordered on fantastic.

 

But Mills isn't a small leak in the line, he's a huge hole. And he's in a position on the line where someone needs to cover for him..and Miller has enough of his own problems to cover for someone else.

 

 

There were two analyses I've seen that pretty accurately sum it up...

 

The Bills have a strong running game with reasonable blocking numbers (19th in adjusted line yards), but the pass blocking is abysmal, ranking dead last in adjusted sack rate and 31st in pressure rate.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/nfls-best-worst-lines-cowboys-seahawks-rank/story?id=44212949

 

There is no way I'd rank them 31st, like that list did.because the run blocking is too good.

 

Buffalo could find an answer to their right tackle issue, this line would vault up the rankings in an instant. Jordan Mills surrendered eight sacks and 57 total QB pressures over 596 pass-blocking snaps this season, fourth-most of any tackle in the game. The play of RG John Miller inside of Mills didn’t help much when it comes to pass blocking, either, giving the Bills a real issue on the right side of the line. Miller allowed four sacks and 33 total QB pressures, but did at least offset that with some strong run blocking.

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season/

 

 

Keep in mind that this is a team was last in the NFL in pass attempts. I shudder to think what it would be like if they passed more.

And as much as people like to B word about TT leaving the pocket soon or holding onto the ball too much...there's no doubt in my mind that they give up a dozen more sacks with a less mobile QB.

 

The fix is easier than in past years, because its only 1-2 positions instead of 3 or more. But RT is such a glaring hole...it is inexcusable not to upgrade it. It is especially true of they plan to pass more often.

 

The draft might not bring an upgrade this year, but they better be looking at alternatives...esp. early cuts

 

I would definitely consider the idea of moving Glenn to RT and Kujo to LT and as of right now..it may be the best option.

[John from Riverside]

When the whole OL is solid except for RT and other parts of the team needing improvement......I think you get not a lot of talk about OL

 

personally i hope someone emerges that knocks off Mills from the pyramid

[Formerly Allan in MD]

The OL is ignored too much. It's usually a need but never gets as much attention as other needs get. There are even posters on this board who insist that you never take an offensive lineman with a number one pick, which I totally disagree with. RT remains a major weakness and, yes, should be addressed, notwithstanding the success of our running game. Unfortunately, this year wide out, corner, and backer take precedence but a good developmental tackle could be "gold." I've never been big for trading down but this year it may be a good idea.

[thebandit27]

The OL is ignored too much. It's usually a need but never gets as much attention as other needs get. There are even posters on this board who insist that you never take an offensive lineman with a number one pick, which I totally disagree with. RT remains a major weakness and, yes, should be addressed, notwithstanding the success of our running game. Unfortunately, this year wide out, corner, and backer take precedence but a good developmental tackle could be "gold." I've never been big for trading down but this year it may be a good idea.

Ignored?

 

This team employs the highest paid LT in the NFL, and has eleven--ELEVEN--OL under contract that have starting experience in the NFL.

 

That they return all 5 starters from a line that's been more than adequate for two straight seasons is not a coincidence

[John from Riverside]

Ignored?

 

This team employs the highest paid LT in the NFL, and has eleven--ELEVEN--OL under contract that have starting experience in the NFL.

 

That they return all 5 starters from a line that's been more than adequate for two straight seasons is not a coincidence

Agreed....I think the team HAS done a good job addressing OL......severely underated in this area.

 

Your always looking to improve

[LEBills]

OL is a huge need. Not a great year for tackles tho. With Tyrod projected to start, I think they put off REALLY addressing Tackle one more year and go QB, defense in the first two rounds.

[Rocky Landing]

 

I agreed with everything you said until you got to Mills. I''ll go further to say that the run blocking, coupled with the play calling in the run game, bordered on fantastic.

 

But Mills isn't a small leak in the line, he's a huge hole. And he's in a position on the line where someone needs to cover for him..and Miller has enough of his own problems to cover for someone else.

 

 

There were two analyses I've seen that pretty accurately sum it up...

 

The Bills have a strong running game with reasonable blocking numbers (19th in adjusted line yards), but the pass blocking is abysmal, ranking dead last in adjusted sack rate and 31st in pressure rate.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/nfls-best-worst-lines-cowboys-seahawks-rank/story?id=44212949

 

There is no way I'd rank them 31st, like that list did.because the run blocking is too good.

 

Buffalo could find an answer to their right tackle issue, this line would vault up the rankings in an instant. Jordan Mills surrendered eight sacks and 57 total QB pressures over 596 pass-blocking snaps this season, fourth-most of any tackle in the game. The play of RG John Miller inside of Mills didn’t help much when it comes to pass blocking, either, giving the Bills a real issue on the right side of the line. Miller allowed four sacks and 33 total QB pressures, but did at least offset that with some strong run blocking.

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season/

 

 

Keep in mind that this is a team was last in the NFL in pass attempts. I shudder to think what it would be like if they passed more.

And as much as people like to B word about TT leaving the pocket soon or holding onto the ball too much...there's no doubt in my mind that they give up a dozen more sacks with a less mobile QB.

 

The fix is easier than in past years, because its only 1-2 positions instead of 3 or more. But RT is such a glaring hole...it is inexcusable not to upgrade it. It is especially true of they plan to pass more often.

 

The draft might not bring an upgrade this year, but they better be looking at alternatives...esp. early cuts

 

I would definitely consider the idea of moving Glenn to RT and Kujo to LT and as of right now..it may be the best option.

I was waiting for someone to hit me for the point on Mills. It's not something I read. It was just my perception of his last few games-- I felt like I was watching him get better. I still feel that way. I know he started his Buffalo career as pretty awful. Really, really awful. But I fee lie there was a slow trend of improvement that I took notice of at the end of the season.

 

Speaking of atrocious beginnings of NFL careers, what about Kujo? I recall some talk last season of moving him to LT, and making Glenn the highest paid RT in the league. Could be a cool option, no?

 

Edit: I also want to add that while I understand (and do not rule out) your opinion on the right side giving up more sacks with a less mobile QB, I think it misses one point: TT moves so far back in the pocket at the instant of the snap-- his five paces are twice the distance of most-- that he stretched the pocket into a size that is very hard to defend, and DCs figured that out early. The O-line had to have eyes in the backs of their head just to know where he was. DCs knew which side to attack, and attack they did.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Rocky Landing

[Bill from NYC]

It doesn't come from that at all.

 

The simple fact is that skill position players get more money because they have greater value.

 

That Buffalo put together the best rushing attack in the NFL for 2 consecutive years with a line comprised of 2 street FAs, a mid round pick, a 2nd round LT, and a first rounder at center is a testament to what can be done scheme-wise.

 

Teams that prioritize OL are few and far between, and as we saw in the playoffs, they'll always lose to the teams that have a franchise QB.

 

Anyway, to the topic at hand: yes, the team could use an upgrade at RT, but investing heavily in a position that is routinely filled by late round picks seems like a terrible idea.

 

Case-in-point: the RTs that teams threw huge money at in FA were guys like Remmers and Wagner--late round picks.

Because of his mobility, TT makes this OL look much better than it really is. Also, it is much easier for these players to run block than it is to pass block. On running plays, 300+ pound blockers who know the count are moving forward, not backing up.

 

Glenn is fine at LT. Aside from Mills who is terrible the rest are adequate. Has the Bills OL been worse? Of course but it surely could use an infusion of talent.

[thebandit27]

Because of his mobility, TT makes this OL look much better than it really is. Also, it is much easier for these players to run block than it is to pass block. On running plays, 300+ pound blockers who know the count are moving forward, not backing up.

 

Glenn is fine at LT. Aside from Mills who is terrible the rest are adequate. Has the Bills OL been worse? Of course but it surely could use an infusion of talent.

Taylor does as much to cause pressure on himself than he does to elude it.

 

He holds the ball an excessively long time (longest in the league by a decent margin), often fails to step into the pocket, and bails laterally and backward into pressure.

 

I'm fine with upgrades, but to say that the line is a weakness or major need would be misguided IMO.

 

PS--enjoy the draft!

[nucci]

OL is a huge need. Not a great year for tackles tho. With Tyrod projected to start, I think they put off REALLY addressing Tackle one more year and go QB, defense in the first two rounds.

No, it's not

[TSOL]

I think this draft is being regarded as weak on Oline so im happy not drafting one this year. Its also not the biggest need on the team this year

Edited April 9, 2017 by Lex Lyon

[CookieG]

I was waiting for someone to hit me for the point on Mills. It's not something I read. It was just my perception of his last few games-- I felt like I was watching him get better. I still feel that way. I know he started his Buffalo career as pretty awful. Really, really awful. But I fee lie there was a slow trend of improvement that I took notice of at the end of the season.

 

Speaking of atrocious beginnings of NFL careers, what about Kujo? I recall some talk last season of moving him to LT, and making Glenn the highest paid RT in the league. Could be a cool option, no?

 

Edit: I also want to add that while I understand (and do not rule out) your opinion on the right side giving up more sacks with a less mobile QB, I think it misses one point: TT moves so far back in the pocket at the instant of the snap-- his five paces are twice the distance of most-- that he stretched the pocket into a size that is very hard to defend, and DCs figured that out early. The O-line had to have eyes in the backs of their head just to know where he was. DCs knew which side to attack, and attack they did.

 

Yeah, I imagine some would having the highest paid RT in the league, even if he's already under contract, and even if there is a good chance that pass pro improves from its bottom 5 position.

 

But those are the people who'd rather see a hole in the line, so they can say something like "You don't overpay/draft high for a right tackle!!"

Ignored?

 

This team employs the highest paid LT in the NFL, and has eleven--ELEVEN--OL under contract that have starting experience in the NFL.

 

That they return all 5 starters from a line that's been more than adequate for two straight seasons is not a coincidence

 

NO, it hasn't been ignored, its better than Buddy's dumpster scrounging.

 

It has gone from rebuilding with UDFA under Buddy to just finishing the job. Upgrading that one position would go a lonnggggg way.