MAJBobby Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Can't dispute that Cardale probably isn't ready yet, but I think there's a decent chance he would outperform TT right now. He seems to be more accurate and have better touch on short routes than TT does, and he definitely won't panic and bail on a clean pocket like TT loves to do. Cardale will probably turn the ball over more, but I bet he would put more points on the board, too. I don't. He has 0 concept of touch. And mechanics are non existent (which is to be expected seeing he was a ground up rebuild). Not to mention because of lack of mechanics is inaccurate. TT is your QB this year. Next year (unfortunately) will likely be QB as well because Rex will still be coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 TT until we're mathematically out. Then give EJ a tryout, or if the Bills FO have moved on from EJ, give Cardale some experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12Kachy Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Is this honestly a question? As long as the Bills have a chance to make the playoffs, TT needs to be the starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb62 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Cardale Jones 6' 5". a Big bodied QB like Big Ben. Has a quick release of the football. A gun for an arm. Great Pocket Presence. Would like to see him with starters. Got to get better than Tyrod Taylor who showed me over and over he is not a Franchise QB. Only after we are eliminated but I agree I would love to see what he has. he looked good in the pre-season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 (edited) Remember he is a slow cook. (Cardale) Strengths Great size to see over offensive line and bulk to withstand NFL hits. Pocket passer with as much arm as you need. Generates very good velocity without having to get feet set. Can rip it into tight quarters, challenge field-side cornerbacks and attack safeties over the top. Almost 11 percent of his pass attempts were 20-plus yard completions. Completed 59 percent of intermediate throws and 41 percent of deep throws. Touch and ball placement on long ball is pro caliber. Can drop feathery, touch throws on fade routes. Has size, athleticism and toughness to call his own number in run game and is a chain mover as a scrambler. Interceptions generally due to overthrows and poor timing over bad decision-making. Though not yet a strength, did show ability to get through progressions and find third option. Weaknesses Handed starting job and never owned it. Disappointing accuracy issues with difficulty hitting simple slants. Uncorked interceptions where unrushed pocket throws sailed way over the top of targets. Eyeballs receivers and brings heat from instinctive linebackers and defensive backs. Had issues reading and reacting to zone coverage underneath. Doesn't hold safeties with his eyes. Failed to execute timing throws out in rhythm. Will pump and reset too often forcing out routes against the sideline. Tends to overthrow near goal line and leave touchdown passes on the field. Saw completion numbers drop almost 30 percent when forced to throw on the move. Below average pocket feel and blitz awareness. Was unable to move from checkers to chess against defensive coordinators. Draft Projection Rounds 4 or 5 Sources Tell Us "You want to buy into the size and arm but his accuracy and game management just aren't there yet. He doesn't even have 300 passes under his belt! Compare him to (Teddy) Bridewater and (Derek) Carr. Blows those guys away with the physical stuff but he can't touch their poise and leadership as young quarterbacks." -- NFL offensive coordinator NFL Comparison Logan Thomas Bottom Line Jones is like a complicated meal that may or may not have all the ingredients present and will likely take a long time to prepare. Will the payoff be worth the investment of time? Jones has very little starting experience and struggled to adjust once defensive coordinators had time to prepare for him this season. The right quarterback coach and passing scheme could promote rapid improvement and high-end production with his ability to strike downfield, but his issues with consistency and accuracy make the "bust" label a very real concern. Edited November 21, 2016 by MAJBobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fadingpain Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I don't. He has 0 concept of touch. And mechanics are non existent (which is to be expected seeing he was a ground up rebuild). Not to mention because of lack of mechanics is inaccurate. TT is your QB this year. Next year (unfortunately) will likely be QB as well because Rex will still be coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prissythecat Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 The Bills still have an outside chance (not miniscule yet) at making the playoffs. Why put in either EJ or Cardale at this point unless Tyrod has an injury that significantly impairs his play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Wagon Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 (edited) I do think the landscape of the NFL has changed rather dramatically in just the last few seasons. A couple of years ago you needed a QB or you may as well not show up. Very good to great QBs were able to raise rather mediocre teams into playoff contenders. But that seems to have shifted to the point where guys like Rodgers and Roethlisberger are on middling teams because their defenses are putrid and other defenses are able to out-athlete or out-scheme their offenses. I think more than ever you can build a very good football team around a "caretaker" QB, my biggest concern with TT moving forward is his contract goes from being a bargain to a major deal next year, I think the decision is much less "is Tyrod a better choice than player X" and much more "are we better off with paying a "step down" (or a draft pick) QB a fraction of Tyrod's contract and using the salary cap elsewhere"? Where teams really get into trouble is the contract that Tyrod will step into soon, ie paying a non-franchise QB at the level of a franchise QB. Paying Flacco has caused a ripple down talent drain in Baltimore. That's my biggest concern with TT. I think you could put Rodgers or Roethlisberger onto this team and we still wouldn't be able to sling it around the yard averaging 30+ PPG simply because we don't have the horses at WR to accomplish that. But I do think we can make some improvements to the defense and ratchet it up another level, improve the offensive line slightly more to make the run game better while paying a QB a fraction of Tyrod's contract and be as good if not better. Edited November 21, 2016 by Chuck Wagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just in Atlanta Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Seriously? We need to win out, and this is even an option in some fans' minds? And who is this mysterious "other," anyway? OK, I picked "other": Meet Ryrod Kelflutsoe. He has the elusiveness and lack of turnovers with Taylor, the arm of Bledsoe, the brain of Fitzpatrick, the x factor of Kelly, the heart of Flutie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted November 21, 2016 Author Share Posted November 21, 2016 I voted for all 4 since you didn't use radio buttons I am awash in a sea of techno-shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Wow--12 voted for EJ?? wtf, that's scaryhilarious I do think the landscape of the NFL has changed rather dramatically in just the last few seasons. A couple of years ago you needed a QB or you may as well not show up. Very good to great QBs were able to raise rather mediocre teams into playoff contenders. But that seems to have shifted to the point where guys like Rodgers and Roethlisberger are on middling teams because their defenses are putrid and other defenses are able to out-athlete or out-scheme their offenses. I think more than ever you can build a very good football team around a "caretaker" QB, my biggest concern with TT moving forward is his contract goes from being a bargain to a major deal next year, I think the decision is much less "is Tyrod a better choice than player X" and much more "are we better off with paying a "step down" (or a draft pick) QB a fraction of Tyrod's contract and using the salary cap elsewhere"? Where teams really get into trouble is the contract that Tyrod will step into soon, ie paying a non-franchise QB at the level of a franchise QB. Paying Flacco has caused a ripple down talent drain in Baltimore. That's my biggest concern with TT. I think you could put Rodgers or Roethlisberger onto this team and we still wouldn't be able to sling it around the yard averaging 30+ PPG simply because we don't have the horses at WR to accomplish that. But I do think we can make some improvements to the defense and ratchet it up another level, improve the offensive line slightly more to make the run game better while paying a QB a fraction of Tyrod's contract and be as good if not better. Where are the caretaker QBs on SuperBowl Sunday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just in Atlanta Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Wow--12 voted for EJ?? wtf, that's scaryhilarious Anyone who is so obsessed with a team that they waste time on a message board, when they should be working, should know better. Have they seen EJ play? WTH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I voted for all 4 since you didn't use radio buttons I like it. Three QBs and the "disaster" QB, five linemen, one running back, and a WR. The REALLY Wild Cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonborn10 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Why isn't JT Barrett on the list? He is the QB that Cardale Jones could not beat out for the starting job in college after winning the national championship. In a very small body of work, Jones showed he has size, toughness, and a cannon for an arm. I just don't believe he is anywhere close to being able to play against a NFL defense. But who honestly knows. That said it is TT to the playoffs and this discussion will be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just in Atlanta Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Seriously? We need to win out, and this is even an option in some fans' minds? And who is this mysterious "other," anyway? OK, I picked "other": Meet Ryrod Kelflutsoe. He has the elusiveness and lack of turnovers with Taylor, the arm of Bledsoe, the brain of Fitzpatrick, the x factor of Kelly, the heart of Flutie. Course we could also create the perfectly bad QB out of former Bills if we want to tank and get a better draft pick. Meet Thadle Joe Edwardson. The lack of heart of Orton, the checkdown philosophy of Edwards, the lack of preparation of Billy Joe Hobert, the desperation of Thad Lewis and the IQ of Rob Johnson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Wow--12 voted for EJ??Those are the same people that voted for Jill Stein. They also prefer Kia to Ferrari, Arbor Day to Christmas and kale to ice cream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted November 21, 2016 Author Share Posted November 21, 2016 Why isn't JT Barrett on the list? He is the QB that Cardale Jones could not beat out for the starting job in college after winning the national championship. In a very small body of work, Jones showed he has size, toughness, and a cannon for an arm. I just don't believe he is anywhere close to being able to play against a NFL defense. But who honestly knows. That said it is TT to the playoffs and this discussion will be done. See "Other".... Course we could also create the perfectly bad QB out of former Bills if we want to tank and get a better draft pick. Meet Thadle Joe Edwardson. The lack of heart of Orton, the checkdown philosophy of Edwards, the lack of preparation of Billy Joe Hobert, the desperation of Thad Lewis and the IQ of Rob Johnson. You forgot a few. Flutie's height, Taylor's inability to see the middle of the field, Bledsoe's mobility and Fitzie's overestimation of his arm strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatplow Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I voted for all 4 since you didn't use radio buttons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxer Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I'm not going to lie, sometimes I would like to see what another QB could do on some of the plays TT has a lot of time to throw the ball and doesn't pull the trigger but I'm realistic, he's the starter and will continue to be as long as he is healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I'm not going to lie, sometimes I would like to see what another QB could do on some of the plays TT has a lot of time to throw the ball and doesn't pull the trigger but I'm realistic, he's the starter and will continue to be as long as he is healthy. What about the flip side when he spins away from 2 guys? We never even talk about those plays but I will bet that he makes the most rushers miss in the NFL. He keeps a lot of plays alive that 95% of QBs would be sacked on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxer Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 What about the flip side when he spins away from 2 guys? We never even talk about those plays but I will bet that he makes the most rushers miss in the NFL. He keeps a lot of plays alive that 95% of QBs would be sacked on. Don't get me wrong, he is amazing when he can keep plays and drives alive while escaping sure sacks, plus he takes cares of the ball. He's dual threat, but he's not, just yet, and remains to be seen, an instinctive passer. He's a good overall thrower but not a great passer. Sometimes I wonder what a different guy (not only the guys that are backing him up) would do when the time in the pocket is more than enough to make plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 (edited) I am awash in a sea of techno-shame. All good. If you want me to be honest. I honestly don't know. TT is the best option but his abilities are showing and I have no doubt that we would have lost to Cincy if Green wasn't hurt. EJ is basically only getting in if the team is out of the playoffs and they want to see if they should extend him for cheap. Cardale is in the same boat but for the game experience and no the extension. Other is anyone that is better than the 3 on the team right now (slim pickins). Edited November 22, 2016 by The Wiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Don't get me wrong, he is amazing when he can keep plays and drives alive while escaping sure sacks, plus he takes cares of the ball. He's dual threat, but he's not, just yet, and remains to be seen, an instinctive passer. He's a good overall thrower but not a great passer. Sometimes I wonder what a different guy (not only the guys that are backing him up) would do when the time in the pocket is more than enough to make plays. I think that's fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Seeing a lot of Cardale talk on the board after yesterday's game. Who does everyone feel should start vs Jax? And why? The why is very important, imo. And FYI, its a public poll... Who on Earth would be having Cardale talk? Answer is Tyrod, and its an easy answer. 1. Cardale - Geezus, how can anyone think this kid who was NOT ready enough to keep his job in College is somehow ready to play here is beyond me. The kid is raw and is a project, I wouldn't even be comfortable with him as the #2 QB let alone the #1. And there is exactly 0% chance he would play better than Tyrod. 2. EJ? You mean the same EJ that played an embarrassing game against Jax last year when he went 0-2 while TT was hurt? That EJ? Come on now...and I like EJ. 3. Can any of those guys play WR like Pryor because we need more help at WR than we do at QB. 4. We are in the playoff race still, there is exactly ZERO percent chance there will be a QB change...PERIOD...so why do people persist with this. Even Rex said after the Seattle game that he wished people saw how much TT really does out there and how much he's done for this team. Not a chance he will be replaced, especially when the guy keeps losing all his weapons and is playing with 2nd and 3rd tier players at the skill positions so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 (edited) What about the flip side when he spins away from 2 guys? We never even talk about those plays but I will bet that he makes the most rushers miss in the NFL. He keeps a lot of plays alive that 95% of QBs would be sacked on.And Sunday there was none of those. Actually they are getting few and far between. I am getting tired of him looking to get out of the pocket Immediately even when protection is sound (which is happening more and more) But this season people are correct there should be no change. However if his play doesn't improve I don't want that option picked up either (even though it will because Bills like Rams will spout continuity and keep Rex). And we will be having similar not mathematically eliminated need major help to get in the playoffs threads this time next year as well like we have had for the past 16 seasons Edited November 22, 2016 by MAJBobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#34fan Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 It's very obvious that Tyrod is the answer to the poll. There is a chasm between him and the other QBs on the roster. Cardale has a ton of physical tools but is still 2 years away IMO. I like him and have seen every snap that he's ever played. He has a chance to be good but shouldn't see the field before 2018. I bet you would have said the exact same thing about Dak Prescott. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 (edited) I bet you would have said the exact same thing about Dak Prescott. I am an OSU fan. I have seen as much (or more) of Cardale than pretty much everyone on this board. I have an irrational love for Cardale Jones. At the same time I know where he stands as a player. I would think that Yolo would agree that he won't be ready until 2018. He is a project with great tools. Dak played a ton in college!! He elevated a bottom tier SEC program with his play. I didn't think that he was a great thrower coming out but he was much, much closer to being ready than Cardale. Cardale was the QB that I wanted in the draft because I wanted a high upside guy. I like Dak a lot and liked him in college. I am not going to use the benefit of hindsight to judge players. That is not real. Edited November 22, 2016 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 (edited) I bet you would have said the exact same thing about Dak Prescott. Did Cardale light up the preseason like Dak did? Obviously, he didn't so that comparison isn't really apples to apples. Cardale is a project who literally wasnt ready to be the starter in college and lost his job because of it. And lets not forget, the Dak Prescotts of the NFL dont come around very often. Its very rare a QB comes into the league and has the kind of success he has had. Its also very rare a young QB comes into one of the best offensive lines of the last decade, and probably the best one along with a great TE, WR, and studly stable of running backs. Our offense is not the Cowboys which is loaded around Dak...and Cardale is not Dak. 100% guarantee that Cardale will not play this year while we are in contention for playoffs without injuries to both TT and EJ. And the same people calling for him to start will be the same people demanding he gets cut if he somehow made it into a game because he would fail due to not being ready and not enough playmakers around him to help. Edited November 22, 2016 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 EJ Manuel got 13 votes? What a time to be alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San-O Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 TT is the best QB on this roster. That's the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sack Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Tyrod because he's played us into playoff contention. 5-5, 4 home games in the final 6. All are winnable games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 And Sunday there was none of those. Actually they are getting few and far between. I am getting tired of him looking to get out of the pocket Immediately even when protection is sound (which is happening more and more) But this season people are correct there should be no change. However if his play doesn't improve I don't want that option picked up either (even though it will because Bills like Rams will spout continuity and keep Rex). And we will be having similar not mathematically eliminated need major help to get in the playoffs threads this time next year as well like we have had for the past 16 seasons None? Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San-O Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Cardale isn't ready. This isn't a Goff situation and he played a fraction of the football that guys like Wentz & Prescott have played. Cardale is well known and he's certainly got tools, but I don't see much sense in playing him as there's likely little he can show in 3-4 meaningless games that will sway the decision on him being the clear starter entering next year. Either Taylor plays himself into his contract for next year over the rest of the season or we'll be looking for a QB high in the draft or in free agency. So Whaley took a QB in the 4th round who's a 2 - 3 year project? Brilliant. Dak Prescott is leading the Cowboys to the Super Bowl potentially, and the Bills are developing a 4th round 3 year project QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 It's very obvious that Tyrod is the answer to the poll. There is a chasm between him and the other QBs on the roster. Cardale has a ton of physical tools but is still 2 years away IMO. I like him and have seen every snap that he's ever played. He has a chance to be good but shouldn't see the field before 2018. EJ simply cant play football at this level. There is not much more to say on him. With that being said I thought that yesterday's game was one of the worst couple of games that Tyrod has played in a Bills uniform. I judge his performance on 3 things turnovers, red zone efficiency and 3rd down efficiency. The way that the Bills offense is designed he needs to be good in those areas to have success. The turnover was a great play but a poor decision. The play (and play calling) in the red zone and on 3rd down were really bad. Those 3 factors are what had the Bills 10th in points. When they don't execute in those areas the offense struggles. Remind me which offenses don't come down to some balance of success in those three? Any given week you can win with some freak big plays but if you can't string together reasonable drives that end with 7.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 EJ Manuel got 13 votes? What a time to be alive. I think those were protest votes -- like voting for Jill Stein. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 None? Wow. No there wasn't. Protection was sound the entire game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty McFly Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 So Whaley took a QB in the 4th round who's a 2 - 3 year project? Brilliant. Dak Prescott is leading the Cowboys to the Super Bowl potentially, and the Bills are developing a 4th round 3 year project QB? Maybe the problem isnt that were developing late round project QBs, maybe its who is developing our QBs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Seeing a lot of Cardale talk on the board after yesterday's game. Who does everyone feel should start vs Jax? And why? The why is very important, imo. And FYI, its a public poll... not sure who other could be at this point in the season. EJ had his shot, next. Cardale is not even close. TT needs to start so he can fully prove to ownership that he is not the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 (edited) Remind me which offenses don't come down to some balance of success in those three? Any given week you can win with some freak big plays but if you can't string together reasonable drives that end with 7....No offense can be successful without those 3. That's kind of the point. Passing yards, QB rating, completion percentage really don't matter unless the plays are being made at the right time. The Bills are a run first offense so the QB will never throw for a ton of yards, a ton of TDs or a ton of INTs. We hear people on this board make the argument that he isn't good because "he only threw for ___ yards." That isn't really a factor to me when judging him. He's a different player asked to do different things. The totals in those areas will never be there based on opportunity. When the plays are made matters the most. As an example I think that Tyrod's completion percentage was good the other day. He did not play well. The plays were not made when they needed them. Edited November 22, 2016 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Wagon Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Wow--12 voted for EJ?? wtf, that's scaryhilarious Where are the caretaker QBs on SuperBowl Sunday? Last year he was holding the trophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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