In season firings?

[Buffalo Barbarian]

is there any Stats showing how successful firing a OC and/or DC is?

[Reed83HOF]

is there any Stats showing how successful firing a OC and/or DC is?

 

Describe success. Are we talking draft position or wins?

[dwight in philly]

i would go out on a limb and say wins.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

i would go out on a limb and say wins.

 

I'm gona say brief burst then losses.

[Major Mud]

Detroit, and Matthew Staffford have looked a lot better on offense since the mid season naming of Jim Bob Cooter as OC.....(just had to get a Jim Bob Cooter reference in)

[klos63]

is there any Stats showing how successful firing a OC and/or DC is?

You spend all off season and training camp installing a system. I don't believe it's realistic to change systems during the season, so what will change? Play calling? Talent hasn't changed. When you fire the OC you are saying the talent is there, but it's not being utilized to it's potential. I don't know what to expect, but I'm not optimistic.

[YoloinOhio]

 

I'm gona say brief burst then losses.

agreed.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

agreed.

 

Geez yolo I was counting you for stats, hopefully 26 come by

You spend all off season and training camp installing a system. I don't believe it's realistic to change systems during the season, so what will change? Play calling? Talent hasn't changed. When you fire the OC you are saying the talent is there, but it's not being utilized to it's potential. I don't know what to expect, but I'm not optimistic.

 

me neither but coaches need to use players to their talents not to what the coach wants to do.

[YoloinOhio]

Mentioned Cam Cameron in Baltimore (went on to win the SB after he was fired) in another thread.

 

I thought of another one - Pep Hamilton in Indy last year. He was looked at as a scapegoat for Pagano. They had Chud, assistant HC, waiting in the wings. And he's much better IMO. Pep is now the OC in Cleveland. And ironically his scheme is similar to Roman, as both coached at Stanford.

 

I don't know about stats with the colts because luck was hurt last year so much but Chud>Pep.

Edited September 17, 2016 by YoloinOhio

[apuszczalowski]

Detroit, and Matthew Staffford have looked a lot better on offense since the mid season naming of Jim Bob Cooter as OC.....(just had to get a Jim Bob Cooter reference in)

Actually, they talked about this on a radio show one day before the season and its actually quite impressive what a man named "Jim Bob Cooter" was able to do in such a short time to change the offence on that team. In the time frame of a Bye Week he redid the entire offence and actually had them improved on the field.

You spend all off season and training camp installing a system. I don't believe it's realistic to change systems during the season, so what will change? Play calling? Talent hasn't changed. When you fire the OC you are saying the talent is there, but it's not being utilized to it's potential. I don't know what to expect, but I'm not optimistic.

Thats true, but the idea is that it can shake up the thinking around the team and sometimes wakes people up. You won't see a DC get fired and a team change its scheme from a 3-4 to 4-3 in season, but you may see a co-ordinator come in and use the players a littel differently and maybe dig into different areas of the playbook then what the recently released guy was doing.

 

In the Bills case, sounds like the playbook and terminology will stay the same, but Lynn may use different areas of the playbook that Roman was leaving out, or may change up play calling from Run, Run, Pass to Pass, Run, Pass. This can help sometimes, just like he may decide that they need to run the ball more with 2 RBs in the backfield instead of one, or throw more to the TEs instead of screen passes to WRs (BTW, I am not saying the Bills are going to, or have done any of this stuff, just giving examples of how things could change while staying the same)

[DrDawkinstein]

You spend all off season and training camp installing a system. I don't believe it's realistic to change systems during the season, so what will change? Play calling? Talent hasn't changed. When you fire the OC you are saying the talent is there, but it's not being utilized to it's potential. I don't know what to expect, but I'm not optimistic.

 

Not sure how anyone would think we're going to switch schemes/playbook at this point.

 

The main difference will be game-planning and play-calling, and hopefully waking up a few dormant players.

 

If Flynn does nothing else but get in Tyrod's face and force him to throw the ball quickly and with anticipation, it will be a win. But we'll see...

[Dragonborn10]

Every team throws multiple WR screens a game. Third and 1 and the Jets throw a WR screen. The Bills trot out the back-up QB to bark. Peyton threw them. Brady and Brees throw them. They are easy ways to get the ball into the WR's hands. Teams are defending the WR screen better but it is still a good play, especially with willing and capable WR blockers

Most teams run screens to the WR and TE. Maybe they are worried TT is too short to throw the screen over on-rushing defenders.

Most teams with mobile QB's let their QB run. TT is small but he takes more shots in the pocket than on the run.

 

A change can make a difference.

 

However an OC can't help TT complete simple out patterns to wide open receivers or prevent TT from throwing the ball a foot over the outstretched hands of a wide-open RB on third down

 

TT has to play better. But the new OC can put him in better spots.

[reddogblitz]

This reminds me a lot of Dick firing Turk the week before the season and promoting Van Pelt. Hopefully it works better.

 

Seems like the Raisins rolled on after the fired Cam.

[Gugny]

My take:

 

If an in-season firing occurs, then I think that's the organization doing a couple things - a) acknowledging that they know there's no chance in hell at getting to the post-season and b) taking away any awkwardness/need for secrecy as they openly search for a new coach.

 

If the Pegulas already know this season's in the crapper (how could they not), then I wish they would just cut to the chase and get rid of the Ryans. Firing Roman was asinine. If anything, the Ryans should have been fired and Roman should have been named interim HC.

 

My fear is that the Pegulas aren't the type to say, "whoops, guess we fuct that one up," and immediately start to fix the problem. Even though that's exactly what this team needs.

 

Instead, the likelihood is that the Ryans will stay on for the entire season and the Bills organization will waste yet another entire season when they could be actively making some progress in their search for a new coaching staff and possibly front office.

 

But the merch sales and advertising $$$ will always win out over assembling a winning product, I'm afraid.

 

The Ryans should be fired today. If not today, then tomorrow. Enough of this crap. It's not funny, or fun, anymore.

[Wayne Cubed]

The firing of Roman says to me that the talent is there but isn't being utilized.

 

This isn't going to be a system change, that's not possible in-season, but a change on how the plays are used and when they are called. They'll still use the same concepts, Palmer is still there.

 

Roman got a lot of criticism in SF for some similar things we have seen here. No urgency, no adjustments and slow to get plays in. Who can forget the final drive of the SF Super Bowl when they had to burn a TO to avoid a delay of game. Saying all that Roman designs some very good pays.

 

Remains to be seen if this will fix anything at all. I doubt it will.

[YoloinOhio]

Don't forget David Blatt/Tyrann Lu!

 

Ha

[dulles]

You spend all off season and training camp installing a system. I don't believe it's realistic to change systems during the season, so what will change? Play calling? Talent hasn't changed. When you fire the OC you are saying the talent is there, but it's not being utilized to it's potential. I don't know what to expect, but I'm not optimistic.

I think there can be significant changes to the game day side of things in three areas. 1. There's always the possibility that Lynn knows how to communicate a play in fewer than 25 seconds so that the offense can get to the line before the numbers on my screen start flashing in bright red! 2. You might also see the use of some basic concepts like a bubble screen or quick-hitting run plays. The lack of simple plays which help get an offense in a flow has been a problem all along. 3. The use of 10-15 yard routes utilizing the middle of the field as well as play action fakes could get Tyrod rolling. All three of these improvements are available regardless of what the system looks like on paper.

Don't forget David Blatt/Tyrann Lu!

 

Ha

I forgot about that. 17-2 baby! Super Bowl LI here we come.

[Gugny]

The firing of Roman says to me that the talent is there but isn't being utilized.

 

This isn't going to be a system change, that's not possible in-season, but a change on how the plays are used and when they are called. They'll still use the same concepts, Palmer is still there.

 

Roman got a lot of criticism in SF for some similar things we have seen here. No urgency, no adjustments and slow to get plays in. Who can forget the final drive of the SF Super Bowl when they had to burn a TO to avoid a delay of game. Saying all that Roman designs some very good pays.

 

Remains to be seen if this will fix anything at all. I doubt it will.

 

With all due respect, Wayne, you're criticizing Roman's play calling in the Super Bowl. They didn't get there by playing poorly. He has shown that he knows how to utilize the talent that's given to him. Unfortunately, he wasn't given any talent at the most important position on the offense in Buffalo.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

My take:

 

If an in-season firing occurs, then I think that's the organization doing a couple things - a) acknowledging that they know there's no chance in hell at getting to the post-season and b) taking away any awkwardness/need for secrecy as they openly search for a new coach.

 

If the Pegulas already know this season's in the crapper (how could they not), then I wish they would just cut to the chase and get rid of the Ryans. Firing Roman was asinine. If anything, the Ryans should have been fired and Roman should have been named interim HC.

 

My fear is that the Pegulas aren't the type to say, "whoops, guess we fuct that one up," and immediately start to fix the problem. Even though that's exactly what this team needs.

 

Instead, the likelihood is that the Ryans will stay on for the entire season and the Bills organization will waste yet another entire season when they could be actively making some progress in their search for a new coaching staff and possibly front office.

 

But the merch sales and advertising $$$ will always win out over assembling a winning product, I'm afraid.

 

The Ryans should be fired today. If not today, then tomorrow. Enough of this crap. It's not funny, or fun, anymore.

Disagree... Firing the whole coaching staff after 2 games, 18 games total... There's no coach in football who would fall on that sword

[Gugny]

Disagree... Firing the whole coaching staff after 2 games, 18 games total... There's no coach in football who would fall on that sword

 

Under normal circumstances, I think you'd be absolutely right.

 

These are not normal circumstances. This team has regressed .. BADLY .. in the last two years. Looking at the Bills' schedule, if everyone was to take off their "Bills fan goggles," it's pretty easy to see they're not going anywhere.

 

Why wait? There's nothing good that can come out of it.

 

EDIT: Let me make very clear, this is not a call to "tank" the season. It's just a call to get rid of the coaching staff. A new coaching staff is not going to make this team lose any more games than they will under the current coaching staff.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Gugny

[Wayne Cubed]

 

With all due respect, Wayne, you're criticizing Roman's play calling in the Super Bowl. They didn't get there by playing poorly. He has shown that he knows how to utilize the talent that's given to him. Unfortunately, he wasn't given any talent at the most important position on the offense in Buffalo.

You're right, they didn't get there by playing poorly but if you think that makes him above criticism, then we are just going to have to disagree. Also, let's not act like SF was an offensive juggernaut and that's what even got them to the SB. It was their defense.

 

And no, IMO he hasn't shown he knows how to utilize the talent he's been given, which is why he was fired.

 

EDIT: they had a problem getting in plays on time all that season. Point is it followed them to the SB and it followed Roman here to Buffalo. The guy is not without his faults.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Wayne Cubed

[Gugny]

You're right, they didn't get there by playing poorly but if you think that makes him above criticism, then we are just going to have to disagree. Also, let's not act like SF was an offensive juggernaut and that's what even got them to the SB. It was their defense.

 

And no, IMO he hasn't shown he knows how to utilize the talent he's been given, which is why he was fired.

 

I guess we will have to respectfully disagree on this one, because I recall Gore and Kaep being pretty awesome during that SB run. I feel bad for Roman. If Taylor was able to see the wide open receivers and to complete passes to the ones he chose to throw to, then Roman would still be in Buffalo and we'd probably have a couple wins. We'll never know, because Taylor couldn't/can't do those things.

[reddogblitz]

Firing the Ryan Twins now would feel good for a few weeks. Then we'd have an interim coach. Then when we go to look for a coach next year, who in their right mind would work for a team that fires it's coach after 18 games? We'd end up with someone like Chan Gailey who nobody else wanted.

 

Play it out and go from there. Hopefully we win 6 or 7 games and it doesn't look like such a bad spot for a new coach to come to.

[bobobonators]

Detroit, and Matthew Staffford have looked a lot better on offense since the mid season naming of Jim Bob Cooter as OC.....(just had to get a Jim Bob Cooter reference in)

Yup. Lions have had one of the best offenses in the league since he took over.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

is there any Stats showing how successful firing a OC and/or DC is?

 

I don't know about stats. I don't think it happens enough to have meaningful stats.

 

I know a few examples of in- or near- season firings, and it seems to be a mixed bag.

Bad:

2009 Todd Haley fires OC Chan Gailey deep in the pre-season and takes over as OC/HC. Results: 4-12

2009 Jauron fires OC Turk Schonert just before season, replaces with Alex Van Pelt. Result: 3-6 for Jauron, fired 9 games into season, 7-9 on the year.

2015 Payton fires DC Rob Ryan after Week 10 and replaces him with Dennis Allen. Result: 4-6 with D last in the league with Rob, 3-3 without improvement on D with Allen.

 

Good;

2012 John Harbaugh fires OC Cam Cameron after Week 14 and replaces him with Jim Caldwell. Ravens lose 2 of the next 3, but claw their way through the playoffs to win the SB. Harbaugh gets Cameron a ring.

2015 Jim Caldwell (having learned from the best) fires OC Joe Lombardi after Week 7 (1-6) and replaces him with Jim Bob Cooter. Lions go 6-3 the rest of the way for overall 7-9 record and still looking good.

 

Probably more I can't think of at the moment.

 

I think the bottom line "good move or not?" is if the pieces and talent are there, but not being utilized effectively, it can be helpful. If the pieces and talent aren't there, it won't help too much.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Hapless Bills Fan

[thebandit27]

Last two I can remember are Detroit, with Jim Bob Cooter igniting the offense last year; and Baltimore canning Cam Cameron in favor of Jim Caldwell--they ended up winning the Super Bowl

[PolishDave]

 

Not sure how anyone would think we're going to switch schemes/playbook at this point.

 

The main difference will be game-planning and play-calling, and hopefully waking up a few dormant players.

 

If Flynn does nothing else but get in Tyrod's face and force him to throw the ball quickly and with anticipation, it will be a win. But we'll see...

 

Yeah because I am sure that is the fix for the situation. Because Tyrod is like 14 years old and commanding his high school JV team. Dude....that is not how you motivate adults... That is how you motivate kids and prison inmates.

 

None of us really know why Tyrod isn't playing his best football. It appears that Rex thinks Roman has something to do with that. I will defer to his judgment on this one. Let's see if it makes a difference or not.

[fansince88]

 

I don't know about stats. I don't think it happens enough to have meaningful stats.

 

I know a few examples of in- or near- season firings, and it seems to be a mixed bag.

Bad:

2009 Todd Haley fires OC Chan Gailey deep in the pre-season and takes over as OC/HC. Results: 4-12

2009 Jauron fires OC Turk Schonert just before season, replaces with Alex Van Pelt. Result: 3-6 for Jauron, fired 9 games into season, 7-9 on the year.

2015 Payton fires DC Rob Ryan after Week 10 and replaces him with Dennis Allen. Result: 4-6 with D last in the league with Rob, 3-3 without improvement on D with Allen.

 

Good;

2012 John Harbaugh fires OC Cam Cameron after Week 14 and replaces him with Jim Caldwell. Ravens lose 2 of the next 3, but claw their way through the playoffs to win the SB. Harbaugh gets Cameron a ring.

2015 Jim Caldwell (having learned from the best) fires OC Joe Lombardi after Week 7 (1-6) and replaces him with Jim Bob Cooter. Lions go 6-3 the rest of the way for overall 7-9 record and still looking good.

 

Probably more I can't think of at the moment.

 

I think the bottom line "good move or not?" is if the pieces and talent are there, but not being utilized effectively, it can be helpful. If the pieces and talent aren't there, it won't help too much.

Is there any way we can pick up Jim Bob Cooter? I want that guy here. Jim Bob Cooter would be fun to say in the shout box!

[Boatdrinks]

Not sure how anyone would think we're going to switch schemes/playbook at this point.

 

The main difference will be game-planning and play-calling, and hopefully waking up a few dormant players.

 

If Flynn does nothing else but get in Tyrod's face and force him to throw the ball quickly and with anticipation, it will be a win. But we'll see...

100% correct. They won't be running a different offense in terms of plays/ playbook. It's game planning/ scheme vs opponent, and play calling. The last of which is a vastly underrated art form . I don't like ragging on a single play call etc as the reason a team loses a game because that is usu just disgruntled fan stuff . However, when you watch a well called game vs what a team is doing defensively well, you know it when you see it. NE vs AZ comes to mind as a recent example. That's where the chess match comes in. Some guys just have more of a knack for it. Lynn could be an improvement there. Much of Bills issues on O has been poor execution though.

[BobChalmers]

 

Not sure how anyone would think we're going to switch schemes/playbook at this point.

 

The main difference will be game-planning and play-calling, and hopefully waking up a few dormant players.

 

If Flynn does nothing else but get in Tyrod's face and force him to throw the ball quickly and with anticipation, it will be a win. But we'll see...

 

THIS and maybe getting the f-ing plays called and in to the QB in time, just as a starting point!?

 

How can anyone want Roman around after that's been an issue since last season?

[Nihilarian]

What I get a kick out of is a lot of Bills fans wanted Greg Roman as HC after last season and are now agreeing with his firing.

 

 

What we saw the first two weeks of this season was nothing we hadn't seen in 2015 for stretches at a time during some games. There were games in which Tyrod went invisible in different quarters and eventually was able to pull himself out of a funk and start throwing it well and mostly because the run game was working. When the run game wasn't working well last year is was just like the first two games this year.

 

Anyone else besides me remember that NY Giants game last year in which the Bills ran 24 times for 55 yards and only had a FG after three-quarters and then go one to finally get a TD in the fourth quarter. Tyrod was able to get on track a little bit last on in that game but it was too little too late.

 

Firing Roman after two games was an act of desperation to deflect how bad the defense was against Gailey and Fitz and those two owned Rex & Rob.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

What I get a kick out of is a lot of Bills fans wanted Greg Roman as HC after last season and are now agreeing with his firing.

 

 

What we saw the first two weeks of this season was nothing we hadn't seen in 2015 for stretches at a time during some games. There were games in which Tyrod went invisible in different quarters and eventually was able to pull himself out of a funk and start throwing it well and mostly because the run game was working. When the run game wasn't working well last year is was just like the first two games this year.

 

Anyone else besides me remember that NY Giants game last year in which the Bills ran 24 times for 55 yards and only had a FG after three-quarters and then go one to finally get a TD in the fourth quarter. Tyrod was able to get on track a little bit last on in that game but it was too little too late.

 

Firing Roman after two games was an act of desperation to deflect how bad the defense was against Gailey and Fitz and those two owned Rex & Rob.

I'll never forget Tyrod in that game. Just miserable.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

If anything, the Ryans should have been fired and Roman should have been named interim HC.

 

Absolutely not. Not disagreeing with firing of the Ryans, but Roman's abysmal job of game management as OC in no way filled one with desire to see him as HC.

[Hardcore Bills Fan]

Bruce Coslet - put together a run midseason run when he replaced Dave Shula

[Nick the Greek]

My take:

 

If an in-season firing occurs, then I think that's the organization doing a couple things - a) acknowledging that they know there's no chance in hell at getting to the post-season and b) taking away any awkwardness/need for secrecy as they openly search for a new coach.

 

If the Pegulas already know this season's in the crapper (how could they not), then I wish they would just cut to the chase and get rid of the Ryans. Firing Roman was asinine. If anything, the Ryans should have been fired and Roman should have been named interim HC.

 

My fear is that the Pegulas aren't the type to say, "whoops, guess we fuct that one up," and immediately start to fix the problem. Even though that's exactly what this team needs.

 

Instead, the likelihood is that the Ryans will stay on for the entire season and the Bills organization will waste yet another entire season when they could be actively making some progress in their search for a new coaching staff and possibly front office.

 

But the merch sales and advertising $$$ will always win out over assembling a winning product, I'm afraid.

 

The Ryans should be fired today. If not today, then tomorrow. Enough of this crap. It's not funny, or fun, anymore.

it hasn't been funny or fun in years.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

 

I don't know about stats. I don't think it happens enough to have meaningful stats.

 

I know a few examples of in- or near- season firings, and it seems to be a mixed bag.

Bad:

2009 Todd Haley fires OC Chan Gailey deep in the pre-season and takes over as OC/HC. Results: 4-12

2009 Jauron fires OC Turk Schonert just before season, replaces with Alex Van Pelt. Result: 3-6 for Jauron, fired 9 games into season, 7-9 on the year.

2015 Payton fires DC Rob Ryan after Week 10 and replaces him with Dennis Allen. Result: 4-6 with D last in the league with Rob, 3-3 without improvement on D with Allen.

 

Good;

2012 John Harbaugh fires OC Cam Cameron after Week 14 and replaces him with Jim Caldwell. Ravens lose 2 of the next 3, but claw their way through the playoffs to win the SB. Harbaugh gets Cameron a ring.

2015 Jim Caldwell (having learned from the best) fires OC Joe Lombardi after Week 7 (1-6) and replaces him with Jim Bob Cooter. Lions go 6-3 the rest of the way for overall 7-9 record and still looking good.

 

Probably more I can't think of at the moment.

 

I think the bottom line "good move or not?" is if the pieces and talent are there, but not being utilized effectively, it can be helpful. If the pieces and talent aren't there, it won't help too much.

 

were done

[8-8 Forever?]

agreed.

yep, probably win the AZ game, then go .500 the rest of the way, end up 7-9. yawn. Rex keeps job. Everyone pissed. Rinse. Repeat. I really thought they had something this year. fooled me again.

[What a Tuel]

I guess we will have to respectfully disagree on this one, because I recall Gore and Kaep being pretty awesome during that SB run. I feel bad for Roman. If Taylor was able to see the wide open receivers and to complete passes to the ones he chose to throw to, then Roman would still be in Buffalo and we'd probably have a couple wins. We'll never know, because Taylor couldn't/can't do those things.

 

Gore hovered around the same stats his whole career especially before Roman. After Roman, not so much but he is also 33 years old.

 

I am just tired of the play calling. I don't know whose fault it was, I just hope we stop throwing the ball 3 yards behind the line of scrimmage and telling whoever catches it to "get er done"

 

Maybe he was playing to Tyrod's strengths and not attempting passes over the middle, but we shouldn't have signed him to a large contract if we are already game planning for him not being able to do that at all.

[Gugny]

 

Gore hovered around the same stats his whole career especially before Roman. After Roman, not so much but he is also 33 years old.

 

I am just tired of the play calling. I don't know whose fault it was, I just hope we stop throwing the ball 3 yards behind the line of scrimmage and telling whoever catches it to "get er done"

 

Maybe he was playing to Tyrod's strengths and not attempting passes over the middle, but we shouldn't have signed him to a large contract if we are already game planning for him not being able to do that at all.

 

Great point. The optimistic part of me told me that Taylor had sufficiently addressed his glaring weaknesses from the prior year. Clearly, through two games, he's not only NOT addressed them, but he seems to have regressed.

 

I've been a big Whaley fan since he came to Buffalo and I still think he's done some incredible things (like building a top 5 defense that's been ruined since Ryan got here). But that extension was irresponsible.

 

I would love nothing more than for the Pegulas to tear this schit house down right now. I don't see how anyone can honestly look at the remaining schedule and think there's even a microscopic chance at a record above .500. - with, or without, the current cast of clowns running/ruining this team.