Doug Whaley- Failure to Field a Competitive Roster

[jethro_tull]

Last night was the nail in the coffin for Doug Whaley IMHO. He has failed to man a roster that is competitive within our division. The most blatant example is our relatively short corners trying to defend against the Jets towering receivers. Same issue with the Patriots that feature a fast tall tight end. Same with the Dolphins.

An 8" height advantage for a receiver or TE is simply ridiculous. Most QBs in the league could complete passes to the Jets receivers vs. the Bills corners.

Coaching did all they could to defense against the Jets offense - employing (7) DBs at one point.

The accountability for the Bills performance lies with the GM.

[Big Turk]

Can't control their misuse on game day. This roster has plenty of talent, that isn't the issue.

[BuffaloBillsForever]

Can't control their misuse on game day. This roster has plenty of talent, that isn't the issue.

 

Really? My proprietary analytical projections that I do every year for fun has them around a 5-11 team and after the draft boosted their win record to 5.5 wins.

 

Doug Whaley is a complete failure as a GM. Ruined the roster and ruined the salary cap at the same time.

Edited September 16, 2016 by BuffaloBillsForever

[jethro_tull]

Can't control their misuse on game day. This roster has plenty of talent, that isn't the issue.

With all due respect, Vince Lombardi could not coach the Bills defensive roster to cover the Jets receivers. It was the most ridiculously lop sided personnel matchup I have ever seen.

[Best Player Available]

Last night was the nail in the coffin for Doug Whaley IMHO. He has failed to man a roster that is competitive within our division. The most blatant example is our relatively short corners trying to defend against the Jets towering receivers. Same issue with the Patriots that feature a fast tall tight end. Same with the Dolphins.

An 8" height advantage for a receiver or TE is simply ridiculous. Most QBs in the league could complete passes to the Jets receivers vs. the Bills corners.

Coaching did all they could to defense against the Jets offense - employing (7) DBs at one point.

The accountability for the Bills performance lies with the GM.

 

Yep, there was a time when players weren't just drafted only because of positional need. But because they needed a player skilled

to directly compete/shut down with a division rivals very good skill player(s) LIke getting someone with the proper size, speed, etc. too deal with Gronk. Successfully. Hopefully forcing the hoodie to game plan for that player as opposed to exploiting the division rivals defensive weaknesses and Gronk gets to play his game. because if he remains healthy the Bills will deal with him for years to come. I don't remember in recent drafts anything mentioned that we got this player to shut down ________ __________ who we play 2x a year. And oh yea they have owned us for 15 years.

[Gugny]

How about the roster that went 9-7? That's what he assembled. Whaley didn't fk that up.

 

That said, I'm still down with getting rid of him. Tear it down all the way and build it up with fresh faces and talent.

[PromoTheRobot]

Can't control their misuse on game day. This roster has plenty of talent, that isn't the issue.

100% agree. You have to use talent you have the right way. Watkins is not a decoy.

[Augie]

Can't control their misuse on game day. This roster has plenty of talent, that isn't the issue.

Whaley isn't the problem.

[SoFFacet]

Last night was the nail in the coffin for Doug Whaley IMHO. He has failed to man a roster that is competitive within our division. The most blatant example is our relatively short corners trying to defend against the Jets towering receivers. Same issue with the Patriots that feature a fast tall tight end. Same with the Dolphins.

An 8" height advantage for a receiver or TE is simply ridiculous. Most QBs in the league could complete passes to the Jets receivers vs. the Bills corners.

Coaching did all they could to defense against the Jets offense - employing (7) DBs at one point.

The accountability for the Bills performance lies with the GM.

 

Guaranteed that if we had a DB corps full of Shermans people would be complaining about them getting undressed by New England's army of shifty slot guys. Backseat Internet GM ftw amirite?

[Maury Ballstein]

Why is Brandon Marshall allowed to be tall ?

 

There should be a rule against that.

[Gugny]

I thought there was a lot of talent on the team after the 2014 season outside of QB(which is obviously crucial).

 

Unfortunately the next seasons the coaches had no idea how to utilize it(mostly on defense) and evntually we lost some of that talent to fit what our head coach wants and here we are.

 

The coaching staff is the big issue. Hell all you have to do is look at the Jets and see how much better prepared and coached they are without our current moron there.

 

A - phucking - men.

[BreezeMafia]

Last night was the nail in the coffin for Doug Whaley IMHO. He has failed to man a roster that is competitive within our division. The most blatant example is our relatively short corners trying to defend against the Jets towering receivers. Same issue with the Patriots that feature a fast tall tight end. Same with the Dolphins.

An 8" height advantage for a receiver or TE is simply ridiculous. Most QBs in the league could complete passes to the Jets receivers vs. the Bills corners.

Coaching did all they could to defense against the Jets offense - employing (7) DBs at one point.

The accountability for the Bills performance lies with the GM.

 

Cant control an owner who decides to hire a head coach that forces Whaley to deplete depth and change over pieces on Defense, neither.

[Blokestradamus]

That awkward moment when you have a go at short corners and Nickell Robey-Coleman played pretty damn well.

 

[BarleyNY]

Whaley has been a mixed bag, but he's had enough missteps that he's going to go with Rex. He wasn't a Pegula hire and I see them cleaning house.

[Best Player Available]

Cant control an owner who decides to hire a head coach that forces Whaley to deplete depth and change over pieces on Defense, neither.

That is the weird thing about hiring Rex period. Getting a transcript of those interviews with ownership, Whaley, Brandon, etc. would be gold.

 

Because I really doubt Rex said yep if you hire me I will need to tear down a big part of this excellant defense so I can install my defense. That would not have been good. ending with a " thank you for your time,Mr. Ryan."

 

IMO it was more like Rex saying: What a dream defense I will inherit if you hire me. Almost every piece of the D is in place. Eff being number 4 in the league I will have these guys #1. Prompting someone in the room too say "don't let this guy out of the room" Since it has been reported somewhere Rex really was looking at Atlanta and S.F. for his next gig.

[DrDawkinstein]

Second post like this in under 12 hours on the board.

 

Shows more that posters don't study any other teams' rosters like they do ours. Parity is the name of the game in the NFL, and the only differences between our roster and the winning teams' are Coach and QB. There may be some a bit more talented, and some a bit less talented, but outside of Coach and QB, this is about as good as it gets in the modern NFL. Just have to utilize it properly.

[Best Player Available]

Second post like this in under 12 hours on the board.

 

Shows more that posters don't study any other teams' rosters like they do ours. Parity is the name of the game in the NFL, and the only differences between our roster and the winning teams' are Coach and QB. There may be some a bit more talented, and some a bit less talented, but outside of Coach and QB, this is about as good as it gets in the modern NFL. Just have to utilize it properly.

sorry the difference between the jets and the Bills was talent. If that wasn't apparent. I don't know what too say. Not simply QB's and coaching. In fact not many here would say even after two crap Bills games anyone would swap Fitz for Tyrod.

[aristocrat]

coaching is the issue

[zonabb]

 

Really? My proprietary analytical projections that I do every year for fun has them around a 5-11 team and after the draft boosted their win record to 5.5 wins.

 

Doug Whaley is a complete failure as a GM. Ruined the roster and ruined the salary cap at the same time.

Your "proprietary analysis" is not a measure of the credibility of your assessment. I can develop a multivariate regression model to support my arguments too, that's no measure of the validity of such an argument.

 

If you think this roster is ruined, just say so because your self aggrandizing implication of statistical prowess absent published results is amateur.

[Dr. K]

Last night was the nail in the coffin for Doug Whaley IMHO. He has failed to man a roster that is competitive within our division. The most blatant example is our relatively short corners trying to defend against the Jets towering receivers. Same issue with the Patriots that feature a fast tall tight end. Same with the Dolphins.

An 8" height advantage for a receiver or TE is simply ridiculous. Most QBs in the league could complete passes to the Jets receivers vs. the Bills corners.

Coaching did all they could to defense against the Jets offense - employing (7) DBs at one point.

The accountability for the Bills performance lies with the GM.

Whaley? You point the finger at Whaley when the King of Clowns head coach walks the sidelines? Can't coach a defense, can't coach an offense, undisciplined play, disorganization, empty bluster, confusion, terrible clock management. Takes a number four defense and drives it into the ditch in a single season. His solution: he hires his failure brother to coach the defense, and when it gives up 500 yards of offense to a mediocre team he fires the OC.

 

Yeah, it's all about Whaley.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Dr. K

[nucci]

Last night was the nail in the coffin for Doug Whaley IMHO. He has failed to man a roster that is competitive within our division. The most blatant example is our relatively short corners trying to defend against the Jets towering receivers. Same issue with the Patriots that feature a fast tall tight end. Same with the Dolphins.

An 8" height advantage for a receiver or TE is simply ridiculous. Most QBs in the league could complete passes to the Jets receivers vs. the Bills corners.

Coaching did all they could to defense against the Jets offense - employing (7) DBs at one point.

The accountability for the Bills performance lies with the GM.

Maybe if he didn't have to rebuild the top 5 defense he had already built to appease the new head coach...he could have focused a bit more on the offense the last 2 drafts

[DriveFor1Outta5]

Second post like this in under 12 hours on the board.

 

Shows more that posters don't study any other teams' rosters like they do ours. Parity is the name of the game in the NFL, and the only differences between our roster and the winning teams' are Coach and QB. There may be some a bit more talented, and some a bit less talented, but outside of Coach and QB, this is about as good as it gets in the modern NFL. Just have to utilize it properly.

I am not a Rex fan, so I believe coaching is a major problem as much as anyone else. With that said, I tend to agree that most NFL teams don't have much depth. However, you also need your big time player makers/talent to actually make plays. That's something that isn't happening here. It could be coaches, or it could be the fact that our elite talent isn't as good as other teams elite talent. Dareus is sitting at home or rehab, I don't believe Sammy has ever been 100% since being with this team, and other guys who are considered talented are not consistently showing it. In reality that means we don't have the amount of talent that some other teams do. We certainly have no one like Von Miller or Gronk. You need a guy like that on your roster to be a winning franchise. Defensively our talent across the board is actually quite low imo. It's really hard to win when your defense can't cover anyone ex. Our safeties in particular are awful. You mention the importance of a QB. Of course they are important, but just ask Luck or Brees how it is playing on a team lacking defensive talent. Edited September 17, 2016 by DriveFor1Outta5

[DrDawkinstein]

sorry the difference between the jets and the Bills was talent. If that wasn't apparent. I don't know what too say. Not simply QB's and coaching. In fact not many here would say even after two crap Bills games anyone would swap Fitz for Tyrod.

 

An OC that draws up slants and over-the-middle patterns and the smarts to utilize his talent properly to get match-ups, and a QB with the guts to anticipate and throw them open, were the main differences.

 

I was one of those people that wouldnt swap Fitz for Tyrod. Was. Last week.

 

After seeing Fitz throw it to guys that weren't open, but were going to come open. And after watching Tyrod hold the ball until guys were wide open, then pat it, then throw it... I'd take Fitz right now.

 

The only reason I wouldnt is because we know what Fitz is and he isnt the long term solution or clutch player, but so far neither it Tyrod.

I am not a Rex fan, so I believe coaching is a major problem as much as anyone else. With that said, I tend to agree that most NFL teams don't have much depth. However, you also need your big time player makers/talent to actually make plays. That's something that isn't happening here. It could be coaches, or it could be the fact that our elite talent isn't as good as other teams elite talent. Dareus is sitting at home or rehab, I don't believe Sammy has ever been 100% since being with this team, and other guys who are considered talented are not consistently showing it. In reality that means we don't have the amount of talent that some other teams do. We certainly have no one like Von Miller or Gronk. You need a guy like that on your roster to be a winning franchise. Defensively our talent across the board is actually quite low imo. It's really hard to win when your defense can't cover anyone ex. Our safeties in particular are awful. You mention the importance of a QB. Of course they are important, but just ask Luck or Brees how it is playing on a team lacking defensive talent.

 

That, I can definitely agree with. No one made plays (outside of the forced fumble and return).

 

We certainly have a Von Miller in Jerry Hughes, no one has a "Gronk".

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

For the most part I'm a Whaley supporter and feel there's a much better chance of replacing him with someone worse rather than better as if it were easy to find front office types, every team in the league would have a solid GM, but they don't. To find a replacement you can go two ways;

 

Hire some recycled available guy, but need to take a long hard look at why is he available, likely a couple years after you hire him you'll find out why.

 

Hire this up and coming guy who everyone is raving about, preferably from a stable organization, but in reality you really have no idea how much success can really be attributed to this rising star, or is it really the guy above him who makes this guy look good. That is pretty much what the Bills have today in Whaley (and Donahoe) who was hired from the Steelers.

 

 

Having said that I do agree that this team just doesn't have the talent to compete. The position I thought we are sadly lacking at in the game was WR. At this point in time Watkins isn't as good as Marshall and Woods isn't anywhere close in talent to Decker. And the #3 and beyond doesn't get better at either.

 

Whaley has made a number of good moves, trade for Hughes, resigning Rickie and Glenn, and resigning Hughes, team friendly contract for TT, plus many other smaller moves.

 

But he hasn't looked too good on the big moves like the trade for Watkins, and McCoy. Actually with Watkins, I was OK with the trade itself as to giving up a 1st and 4th, if he had played at the level expected, but he hasn't. fFve years from now, it could still end up being a good deal as we saw late last season what he can do, but not at the moment. Trading Kiko for McCoy was OK, but then giving him the big extension wasn't very smart.

 

 

 

Cant control an owner who decides to hire a head coach that forces Whaley to deplete depth and change over pieces on Defense, neither.

 

Agree do wonder how much truth there is to this that it was Terry hire. If so do need to give Whaley more of a pass and hope that Pegula learned from this and the next time, leave it to the experts to make the decision

 

IMO it was more like Rex saying: What a dream defense I will inherit if you hire me. Almost every piece of the D is in place. Eff being number 4 in the league I will have these guys #1. Prompting someone in the room too say "don't let this guy out of the room" Since it has been reported somewhere Rex really was looking at Atlanta and S.F. for his next gig.

 

Agree here too, likely Rex expected everyone to buy into his D big time, but didn't happen.

 

I also don't think the defense was as good in 2014 as people claim it to be as can recall at least two late games where we may have won if the defense had stopped the other team but couldn't. They looked great on paper, but not as dominant during the actual games which is where it matters most. IMO if Marrone and Schwarz had stayed, I doubt we'd be a top five defense the following season.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Ed_Formerly_of_Roch

[Bill from NYC]

 

Really? My proprietary analytical projections that I do every year for fun has them around a 5-11 team and after the draft boosted their win record to 5.5 wins.

 

Doug Whaley is a complete failure as a GM. Ruined the roster and ruined the salary cap at the same time.

You left out the part about trading away draft choices.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

 

An OC that draws up slants and over-the-middle patterns and the smarts to utilize his talent properly to get match-ups, and a QB with the guts to anticipate and throw them open, were the main differences.

 

I was one of those people that wouldnt swap Fitz for Tyrod. Was. Last week.

 

After seeing Fitz throw it to guys that weren't open, but were going to come open. And after watching Tyrod hold the ball until guys were wide open, then pat it, then throw it... I'd take Fitz right now.

 

The only reason I wouldnt is because we know what Fitz is and he isnt the long term solution or clutch player, but so far neither it Tyrod.

 

 

That, I can definitely agree with. No one made plays (outside of the forced fumble and return).

 

We certainly have a Von Miller in Jerry Hughes, no one has a "Gronk".

True no one has a Gronk, but my point is that you need elite players who play like elite players. Every contender has this in common. Von Miller almost singlehanded led his team to a championship. I don't really think Hughes is close to being in the same category. Hughes is our best defense player at the moment, but he's not quite a dominant superstar. Edited September 17, 2016 by DriveFor1Outta5

[jethro_tull]

How about the roster that went 9-7? That's what he assembled. Whaley didn't fk that up.

 

That said, I'm still down with getting rid of him. Tear it down all the way and build it up with fresh faces and talent.

they still got beat convincingly by teams that utilize big tight ends and receivers- the Patriots, The Redskins, the Giants, the Bengals.

last season they were competitive, so he failed to field a playoff roster.

this season they are not competitive.

[jms62]

Well now Whaley is clearly on the hot seat. Pegula's fired Roman cause he wasnt targeting all these great play makers Whaley brought in. You can rest assured they will be targeted going forward and if they are shown to be not the stars they are thought to be Whaley will be gone and we can start Rebuild yet again.

[jethro_tull]

100% agree. You have to use talent you have the right way. Watkins is not a decoy.

The offense has competitive talent, no doubt. But the defense is not. The best coaching minds in history could not fix the defenses physical size miss-matches. It was ridiculous watching the Jets receivers catch the ball at will, even when they were double covered.

How would you suggest that defensive coaching could have done anything different against the Jets in that game?

[DrDawkinstein]

The offense has competitive talent, no doubt. But the defense is not. The best coaching minds in history could not fix the defenses physical size miss-matches. It was ridiculous watching the Jets receivers catch the ball at will, even when they were double covered.

How would you suggest that defensive coaching could have done anything different against the Jets in that game?

 

Blitzed to rattle Fitz and force the quick throw, and give the CBs Safety help. Neither happened.

Edited September 17, 2016 by DrDareustein

[jethro_tull]

Whaley isn't the problem.

How would you stop the Jets receivers?

Second post like this in under 12 hours on the board.

 

Shows more that posters don't study any other teams' rosters like they do ours. Parity is the name of the game in the NFL, and the only differences between our roster and the winning teams' are Coach and QB. There may be some a bit more talented, and some a bit less talented, but outside of Coach and QB, this is about as good as it gets in the modern NFL. Just have to utilize it properly.

The physical miss-match is the key. It was happening last season as well against teams with bigger tight ends and receivers. Whaley has failed to address the match-ups in our division. It really is as simple as that.

For the most part I'm a Whaley supporter and feel there's a much better chance of replacing him with someone worse rather than better as if it were easy to find front office types, every team in the league would have a solid GM, but they don't. To find a replacement you can go two ways;

 

Hire some recycled available guy, but need to take a long hard look at why is he available, likely a couple years after you hire him you'll find out why.

 

Hire this up and coming guy who everyone is raving about, preferably from a stable organization, but in reality you really have no idea how much success can really be attributed to this rising star, or is it really the guy above him who makes this guy look good. That is pretty much what the Bills have today in Whaley (and Donahoe) who was hired from the Steelers.

 

 

Having said that I do agree that this team just doesn't have the talent to compete. The position I thought we are sadly lacking at in the game was WR. At this point in time Watkins isn't as good as Marshall and Woods isn't anywhere close in talent to Decker. And the #3 and beyond doesn't get better at either.

 

Whaley has made a number of good moves, trade for Hughes, resigning Rickie and Glenn, and resigning Hughes, team friendly contract for TT, plus many other smaller moves.

 

But he hasn't looked too good on the big moves like the trade for Watkins, and McCoy. Actually with Watkins, I was OK with the trade itself as to giving up a 1st and 4th, if he had played at the level expected, but he hasn't. fFve years from now, it could still end up being a good deal as we saw late last season what he can do, but not at the moment. Trading Kiko for McCoy was OK, but then giving him the big extension wasn't very smart.

 

 

 

Agree do wonder how much truth there is to this that it was Terry hire. If so do need to give Whaley more of a pass and hope that Pegula learned from this and the next time, leave it to the experts to make the decision

 

 

Agree here too, likely Rex expected everyone to buy into his D big time, but didn't happen.

 

I also don't think the defense was as good in 2014 as people claim it to be as can recall at least two late games where we may have won if the defense had stopped the other team but couldn't. They looked great on paper, but not as dominant during the actual games which is where it matters most. IMO if Marrone and Schwarz had stayed, I doubt we'd be a top five defense the following season.

There is a good chance the team would replace Whaley with someone worse, agreed, and this is a huge risk. I do not want any more back slides either. But it could also work the other way too. I do believe that the current physical miss-matches are so blatantly obvious that Whaley and the Bills scouting staff could target larger corners in the next draft but it is almost too late to keep this ship from taking on more water- in the form of more losses and an early end to the season. I hope not.

 

Blitzed to rattle Fitz and force the quick throw, and give the CBs Safety help. Neither happened.

they tried. somehow fitz was able to launch a 20 yard pass as soon as he took the snap in the shotgun. when the receivers are covered and can still catch the ball (easily) by towering over the corners, there is no need for a QB to wait to throw the ball. blitzing is not effective. the corners are too short and it was painful to watch.

Edited September 17, 2016 by jethro_tull

[DrDawkinstein]

How would you stop the Jets receivers?

The physical miss-match is the key. It was happening last season as well against teams with bigger tight ends and receivers. Whaley has failed to address the match-ups in our division. It really is as simple as that.

There is a good chance the team would replace Whaley with someone worse, agreed, and this is a huge risk. I do not want any more back slides either. But it could also work the other way too. I do believe that the current physical miss-matches are so blatantly obvious that Whaley and the Bills scouting staff could target larger corners in the next draft but it is almost too late to keep this ship from taking on more water- in the form of more losses and an early end to the season. I hope not.

they tried. somehow fitz was able to launch a 20 yard pass as soon as he took the snap in the shotgun. when the receivers are covered and can still catch the ball (easily) by towering over the corners, there is no need for a QB to wait to throw the ball. blitzing is not effective. the corners are too short and it was painful to watch.

 

Considering we swept the Jets and Dolphins last season with basically the same players on both sides, I think the only match-up not fully addressed is Gronk. And so far, no one in the NFL has really figured out how to stop him.

[Rico]

I would hire Whaley as a scout looking at players for the defense. He's in way, way, WAY over his head as a GM though; the appalling results after 2+ years clearly speak for themselves.

[Eastcoastlegacy]

I really don't understand the talent argument. You can pay as much as you want for players and still not put a legit team on the field (Washington, Dallas). We are all way too familiar with the Pats* around here but the truth is their players are nobody until they are coached to play. Look at their QB success, Cassel, even Mallet has played well in their system. An unproven QB comes in last week without Gronk and uses Chris Hogan to help him squeak out a win against a top 5 team in the NFL. What happened to their "make-shift" O-line I heard about all off season? Oh, they played well enough to win. HGH? probably. Pure talent? eh. Coaching? most likely. These are all professionals, they should have the capacity to perform at a high level when placed in position to win. Do you think Hughes is a different person than he was in Indy? He's just being used properly, or he hated it there and pulled a Mario.

[Solomon Grundy]

coaching is the issue

Is it true that Doug Whaley wanted to hire Hue Jackson, but the Pegulas wanted Rex Ryan?

[jethro_tull]

 

Considering we swept the Jets and Dolphins last season with basically the same players on both sides, I think the only match-up not fully addressed is Gronk. And so far, no one in the NFL has really figured out how to stop him.

quincy enunwa played only in the second game last year and was targeted only once. he shredded the bills corners in this game. it also seems like more chemistry has developed between fitz, marshall, decker and jailin. they have learned how to exploit the bills short corners and unfortunately provided an easy to follow blue print for other teams.

i agree about gronk but i don't believe the bills have ever considered drafting anyone specifically to stop him. they should have.

[PromoTheRobot]

Whaley has been a mixed bag, but he's had enough missteps that he's going to go with Rex. He wasn't a Pegula hire and I see them cleaning house.

So what you are saying is despite doing some good, since Whaley didn't bat 1.000 he has to go?

[thebandit27]

Is it true that Doug Whaley wanted to hire Hue Jackson, but the Pegulas wanted Rex Ryan?

It's true that Whaley had Hue Jackson as his #1 after the first round of interviews, and possibly after as well

 

It's also true, however, that Whaley got his run at Rex during the 2nd interview, and was on board with the hiring.

[Dragonborn10]

Whaley isn't the biggest problem but if they don't make the playoffs then they should all go. I mean everyone. Brandon, every scout, the medical staff, the coaches, the trainers, the guys that pick up the garbage after the game. Only from complete death can their be a rebirth. This team has enough talent to be 2-0. But they don't have enough talent to give away draft picks to move up and get a slow LB. They don't have enough talent to ignore medical reports about a guy with a bad shoulder. And they don't have enough talent at QB not to draft one every dam year until they find one.

[thebandit27]

So what you are saying is despite doing some good, since Whaley didn't bat 1.000 he has to go?

No, that's not what he's saying, and I think you're smart enough to see that