Mr. WEO Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 (edited) I think it's the moral equivalence that an elite and highly privileged American such as this kid assigns himself to actually oppressed minorities that bothers most people. It is completely and only self serving. It is a completely insignificant action, achieving nothing but stoked narcissism. Edited August 27, 2016 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUFFALOTONE Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 That's quite a stretch. Could not disagree more with you. But your right to an opinion..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 I think it's the moral equivalence that an elite and highly privileged American such as this kid assigns himself to actually oppressed minorities that bothers most people. It is completely and only self serving. It is a completely insignificant action, achieving nothing but stoked narcissism. It's not okay for a successful and wealthy person to criticize the fact, or even protest the fact that too many people in this country live in poverty? It's not okay for a person considered beautiful to protest the fact that too looks are taken too seriously in this country or to protest body shaming? It's not okay for a gifted brainiac to protest that our schools are broken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 Honestly, it seems fairly civil. Much better than PPP. Part of the biggest problem is you can't talk about issues without people getting upset and thinking their side is "right." Overall, I think the vast majority of people here are very open minded. But sadly, some of bad stereotypes of Bills fans and WNY are showing here. Sadly, WNY has a bad rep for being racist (but they have a black mayor!). I try to avoid PPP for that very reason. In general when people argue over politics or religion it just makes me cringe. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. Educate yourself and practice whatever you think best serves you but don't try to inflict your views on others. Those things are deeply personal IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 I try to avoid PPP for that very reason. In general when people argue over politics or religion it just makes me cringe. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. Educate yourself and practice whatever you think best serves you but don't try to inflict your views on others. Those things are deeply personal IMO. Yep. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and opinions. It's only when they express them that pisses me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted August 27, 2016 Author Share Posted August 27, 2016 Yep. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and opinions. It's only when they express them that pisses me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 It's not okay for a successful and wealthy person to criticize the fact, or even protest the fact that too many people in this country live in poverty? It's not okay for a person considered beautiful to protest the fact that too looks are taken too seriously in this country or to protest body shaming? It's not okay for a gifted brainiac to protest that our schools are broken? Of course it's ok to do that. That's not what he's doing however, nor how his little protest is playing out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 Yep. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and opinions. It's only when they express them that pisses me off. Well played KTD It's also a little ironic that I sit here trying to inflict my views on this team on everyone all of the time. That's football though!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralonzo Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 (edited) I'm going to reiterate this point. Kaepernick wasn't protesting anything, anywhere, until some cameraman caught his bony ass on the sideline bench with a wide-angle lens. That's when he retroactively turned into a protest warrior. Because he got busted being a prima-donna. I'm calling shenanigans on all of it. Edited August 27, 2016 by Ralonzo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Of course it's ok to do that. That's not what he's doing however, nor how his little protest is playing out Immaterial to my post, really. I was just commenting on WEO's rationale that an elite and privileged person cannot assign himself to actually oppressed minorities. I'm going to reiterate this point. Kaepernick wasn't protesting anything, anywhere, until some cameraman caught his bony ass on the sideline bench with a wide-angle lens. That's when he retroactively turned into a protest warrior. Because he got busted being a prima-donna. I'm calling shenanigans on all of it. He didn't make a big point of it. He did it last game and two games ago, too, and no one asked him about it so he kept quiet about it. It was just a personal protest. This time they went after him and asked him about it so he told them his reasons. If the reporters didn't ask him the questions, it's not as though he was going to announce and hold a press conference to let his views be known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 It's not okay for a successful and wealthy person to criticize the fact, or even protest the fact that too many people in this country live in poverty? It's not okay for a person considered beautiful to protest the fact that too looks are taken too seriously in this country or to protest body shaming? It's not okay for a gifted brainiac to protest that our schools are broken? It's a free country, he can say or criticize anything he likes, of course. Who says it's "not ok"? But talk is cheap, as is the National Anthem stunt. He wasn't protesting the fact that too many people live in poverty (he would be free to contribute the bulk of his salary to their plight if he was more bothered by this). He was "protesting" the murder of black Americans by police officers--and equating the acts of individuals with "a country". It's a meaningless gesture (and pretty cliched at this point). A token gesture and self serving. So he can spare us--or do something of significance to actually make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 It's a free country, he can say or criticize anything he likes, of course. Who says it's "not ok"? But talk is cheap, as is the National Anthem stunt. He wasn't protesting the fact that too many people live in poverty (he would be free to contribute the bulk of his salary to their plight if he was more bothered by this). He was "protesting" the murder of black Americans by police officers--and equating the acts of individuals with "a country". It's a meaningless gesture (and pretty cliched at this point). A token gesture and self serving. So he can spare us--or do something of significance to actually make a difference. When you criticize someone like you did it's the equivalent of saying it's not okay in your mind. Not in the it's not legal way, but in the it's not right or moral way. Which is what you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 And I think that's what gets most people riled up. He's slamming the entire country for individual acts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 And I think that's what gets most people riled up. He's slamming the entire country for individual acts.And I think that is not what these guys are doing. They are saying the individual acts are elements of a systemic and wide spreading problem, and that is what a lot of people don't get. For the record, I am not for the BLM concept, I believe it's ill-conceived and causes as many or more problems than it tries to allay, mostly because smart people like yourself take offense to things like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUFFALOTONE Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 (edited) The one refreshing thing to come out of this whole topic is you get a behind the curtains view of the people you have such a common ground with. Now I'm not saying one subject such as this encapsulates a persons entire being but it does get you thinking and reacting on a whole other level. I don't visit the PPP board as I come to this site because this is where the "best" Bills fans can get there fix. I'll leave you with this and it's is just my opinion: I have a brother who has served since 1997. He's done countless tours and is still serving as a Major in the USAF. The members of this board that comprise that fraternity I thank you endlessly for your service. Some of us who have never served can sympethize as I bet they had a close family member or associate STAND for this country. You don't have to be a color or creed to appreciate the freedoms we receive in America. There are thousands who come by boat, caravan or run all night to get a glimpse of freedom and opportunity. Everyone is right, cause it's an opinion. He has the right to say and do what he wants. But I don't have to like it. And all of the people pounding your fists for equality and the suffering of others, I truly hope you practice what you're preaching and not just trying to argue a point. There are a lot of injustices in this country. But what has he done to improve and better the lives of those he obviously cares so much for? I'll wait and see if he decides to use his platform to further the oppressed. Edited August 28, 2016 by BUFFALOTONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 And I think that is not what these guys are doing. They are saying the individual acts are elements of a systemic and wide spreading problem, and that is what a lot of people don't get. For the record, I am not for the BLM concept, I believe it's ill-conceived and causes as many or more problems than it tries to allay, mostly because smart people like yourself take offense to things like that. And that's why it's totally disingenuous for a star black athlete who hasn't been denied anything because of his race to pull out the race card. My guess is that he's gotten some nasty racist tweets because he lost his starting job, and thinks that is how the entire country thinks that way. His protest is juvenile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy10 Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 At some point, is someone in the FO accountable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUFFALOTONE Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 At some point, is someone in the FO accountable? Fantastic!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 (edited) And that's why it's totally disingenuous for a star black athlete who hasn't been denied anything because of his race to pull out the race card. My guess is that he's gotten some nasty racist tweets because he lost his starting job, and thinks that is how the entire country thinks that way. His protest is juvenile. That's probably a good read on it. I don't think it's totally disingenuous at all for an athlete to pull out the race card. That's like saying it's totally disingenuous for a star Olympic figure skater or gymnast to play the gay card. Edited August 28, 2016 by Kelly the Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 I'm going to reiterate this point. Kaepernick wasn't protesting anything, anywhere, until some cameraman caught his bony ass on the sideline bench with a wide-angle lens. That's when he retroactively turned into a protest warrior. Because he got busted being a prima-donna. I'm calling shenanigans on all of it. I caught some film of the incident before the Titans/Raiders game on CBS and came to the same conclusion Special Snowflake didn't feel like standing for the anthem so he came up with this SJW nonsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 When you criticize someone like you did it's the equivalent of saying it's not okay in your mind. Not in the it's not legal way, but in the it's not right or moral way. Which is what you did. No I didn't. As GG said, I was saying that many think his "protest" rings hollow because of his status in society. What I "did" say is that you mischaracterized what he was protesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 At some point, is someone in the FO accountable?Lol. Good point. Outside of sidestepping the issue today, I wonder if they have an official Carmen Policy on this. No I didn't. As GG said, I was saying that many think his "protest" rings hollow because of his status in society. What I "did" say is that you mischaracterized what he was protesting. You weren't criticizing him. Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBaumer Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Visitor sideline fans will have plenty of time to come up with some doozies by 10/16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted August 28, 2016 Author Share Posted August 28, 2016 (edited) Some interesting and rather ironic history about Francis Scott Key that I never knew about: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/wheres-debate-francis-scott-keys-slave-holding-legacy-180959550/?no-ist Edited August 28, 2016 by 26CornerBlitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 (edited) Seriously, what is the issue? The entire basis of this country is rooted in the freedoms of being able to say and express your beliefs. And those rights were established because the founders of our country were oppressed from their own country and felt we should always be allowed to speak out against our government and speak up for what we believe as citizens of this country. Those upset by his display clearly don't understand the very foundations of what this country was built on. They should be applauding this kid because not enough public people like him take a public stand for what they believe in. And besides, in this era how can anyone dispute or argue that the African American culture has not had a fair shake in this country not only in our past but still in our present? I don't blame him for making a symbolic gesture that means something to him. I saw a caucasion speaker a couple weeks ago at an event I was at talk about the divide between minorities and caucasians in this country, and it was astonishing. We already know about the appalling prejudice in our legal systems, however, he wanted to see the success rates. So he studied all kinds of things related to success. For instance, he looked at how often they become millionaires with Post Graduate Degrees, College Degrees, High School Diplomas, and No Diplomas. The closest they ever got was Caucasians succeeding to reach those levels at 10 times more frequency than Hispanics and African Americans, and that was with Post Graduate Degrees. The other levels the difference void grew massively from 40 times less likely to almost 100 times less likely for those minorities compared to Caucasians. And these numbers were not based on illegal immigrants, these were all based on American born citizens. This is just one example of about 30 different comparisons in many success studies where they were on equal footing where the lopsided difference was astonishing. The point is, there is mountains and mountains of statistical evidence about the lack of balance on so many levels between both the hispanic and African American communities compared to white americans. Now add in that hysteria that the Trump campaign has created in racial divide, the alarming number of unnecessary deaths at the hands of law enforcement caught on tape, etc etc...and its not hard to understand how a young African American can feel that his community, his family, his friends, his heritage, etc are not getting a fair shake. So why should anyone be offended that he feels there needs to be change across this country (which there absolutely does) and made a symbolic gesture about it? A LOT has happened since the last time he was on a football field. The things that frustrates me the most about all these hardcore "Americans" who get upset about this...they seem to forget the history of this country is VIOLENT...this country was built on the largest genocide in history of wiping out all the natives to this land. This country was then built on the backs of Asian and African American slaves. This country then fought itself in a civil war over the right to keep having slaves or not. This country is the only country in the world to ever use an Atomic Weapon...and we did it TWICE. This country still has a racist under belly present in both our communities and judicial systems. We may be the "greatest country" on Earth, but our hands are not free of blood...our closets aren't free of Skeletons...our Government and Judicial systems are not free of corruption...our citizens aren't free from injustices. But what we are free of, is the restriction of speech and expression...yet this kid is getting slammed unjustly for expressing his disappointment on how his people still face challenges in this country that others don't. Edited August 28, 2016 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Some interesting and rather ironic history about Francis Scott Key that I never knew about: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/wheres-debate-francis-scott-keys-slave-holding-legacy-180959550/?no-ist Lol. Thanks for posting that. Love that kind of historical anecdote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 You weren't criticizing him. Got it. Let me try something else: You said: "It's not okay for a successful and wealthy person to criticize the fact, or even protest the fact that too many people in this country live in poverty?" I said, he can say what he wants--not criticizing him for that. I also pointed out that it's obvious that's not what he is protesting--his own words tell you this. "Assigning" one's self to an oppressed group that you are not a part of (let alone attributing the oppressive behavior to be sanctioned by this "country") is an empty gesture. Keep doesn't like that innocent black Americans have been killed by cops. Neither do I. Neither does anyone (I'm pretty sure) here at this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Okay so let me start by saying I love your national anthem. I enjoy the opportunity at the London games to sing along to it. However, I am not altogether comfortable with forcing it upon sporting occassions. It seems unnecessary to me to sing it at every NFL game. Championship games? Sure. Games played abroad? Of course. Veteran week games? No problem. But every game even in pre-season is overkill. I agree with what others have said. Kaepernick could have stood stayed stoney silent and not sung along. That is how I treat the UK's anthem about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Get the !@#$ out then Colin you pos.....you always respect your country's anthem no matter what your view points.... A country that has provided him millions of dollars to sling a football in which he basically sucks at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 (edited) Okay so let me start by saying I love your national anthem. I enjoy the opportunity at the London games to sing along to it. However, I am not altogether comfortable with forcing it upon sporting occassions. It seems unnecessary to me to sing it at every NFL game. Championship games? Sure. Games played abroad? Of course. Veteran week games? No problem. But every game even in pre-season is overkill. I agree with what others have said. Kaepernick could have stood stayed stoney silent and not sung along. That is how I treat the UK's anthem about Baseball 7th inning stretch. Edited August 28, 2016 by Beef Jerky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Let me try something else: You said: "It's not okay for a successful and wealthy person to criticize the fact, or even protest the fact that too many people in this country live in poverty?" I said, he can say what he wants--not criticizing him for that. I also pointed out that it's obvious that's not what he is protesting--his own words tell you this. "Assigning" one's self to an oppressed group that you are not a part of (let alone attributing the oppressive behavior to be sanctioned by this "country") is an empty gesture. Keep doesn't like that innocent black Americans have been killed by cops. Neither do I. Neither does anyone (I'm pretty sure) here at this board. Just because you think it is an empty gesture and some others here do, too, does not make it an empty gesture. In fact, just the fact that there is this wildly entertaining and sometimes informative thread PROVES just the opposite. He's a football player. He has a platform to some degree. His empty gesture begat discussions like this all across the country on football message boards and probably some that aren't just about football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 @RapSheet "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color." https://t.co/CNnJJqG77R Cant wait till that white QB takes your job D-bag (don't forget you are half white yourself dumbazz) I understand & appreciate your POV, but he has the right to his as well. and we have a right to express ours and he can go find another country Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted August 28, 2016 Author Share Posted August 28, 2016 Cant wait till that white QB takes your job D-bag (don't forget you are half white yourself dumbazz) and we have a right to express ours and he can go find another country Wow! It seems as if the principles of freedom that the United States was founded upon are lost on you. What about the white abolitionists who championed the end of slavery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GottaRun Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 National anthems before sporting events are a waste of time. Choose a team anthem and be done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonabb Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Good for him! Singing a national anthem before a sporting event is a joke. Never have sung it, never will. That's my right, provided me by the founding fathers. It's not that I don't appreciate them, nor both my family members who fought in WWII. I'm just not a flag waving, blind patriot who is willing to ignore the problems in this country for a few minutes before a game. If you want to, great. That's your right. If not, great, that's your right. The problem is, we're never allowed to criticize the country, the founding fathers (slave owners and oppressors), or law enforcement. They're untouchable in the minds of many and those who challenge these concepts are marginalized by those without the guts to Have an honest conversation. Not all cops are heroes, America as an ideal is not ideal, and the founding fathers were not altruistic free-thinkers, they were wealthy opportunists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LI_Bills Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Good for him! Singing a national anthem before a sporting event is a joke. Never have sung it, never will. That's my right, provided me by the founding fathers. It's not that I don't appreciate them, nor both my family members who fought in WWII. I'm just not a flag waving, blind patriot who is willing to ignore the problems in this country for a few minutes before a game. If you want to, great. That's your right. If not, great, that's your right. The problem is, we're never allowed to criticize the country, the founding fathers (slave owners and oppressors), or law enforcement. They're untouchable in the minds of many and those who challenge these concepts are marginalized by those without the guts to Have an honest conversation. Not all cops are heroes, America as an ideal is not ideal, and the founding fathers were not altruistic free-thinkers, they were wealthy opportunists. Completely disagree that we are "never allowed to criticize the country". The country was founded on the opposite precept : "by the people, for the people" and freedom of speech as a basic right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Completely disagree that we are "never allowed to criticize the country". The country was founded on the opposite precept : "by the people, for the people" and freedom of speech as a basic right. Yep. Except for that pesky slavery thing. Oh, and women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralonzo Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 National anthems before sporting events are a waste of time. Choose a team anthem and be done with it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LI_Bills Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Yep. Except for that pesky slavery thing. Oh, and women. Remind me again...are slavery and woman's suffrage still a thing? Thanks for making my point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete This Account Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 i might be mistaken, but having stood for enough anthems, i seem to recall the line about the "land of the free." so obviously heaven forbid someone having the freedom to express his or her opinion. jw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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