Brady's suspension lifted

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

Well, I'm not shocked since it sounded like Berman was raking the NFL over the coals. But still...

 

A) I'd rather see zero games than one for "failing to cooperate with the investigation" only to have us get the brunt of it week 2. It seemed like it might go that way for a while.

 

B) The decision is about process and procedure. While I wildly disagree, this is nothing to do with guilt or innocence. Brady may not serve a suspension, but he is, in the eyes of the league, still guilty.

 

Strip him from the hall of fame.

[NoSaint]

 

I understand the legal argument the judge was making. It seems the NFL needs to have, in writing, every single possible forms of cheating and what those punishments are in order for it to hold up in a court of law. Do you how long that would take and what a waste of time and money it would be?

not in the slightest the argument. the issue is that they have a long history with both non-cooperation and equipment violations and punished in a way that is outside precedent. hence they had to compare it to steroid users, and not people that have tampered with equipment (surely not the first) or lied to investigators (surely not the first). unless you think no one has ever done either of those things in the league.

[Rob's House]

. Because it's not obvious enough that you shouldn't steal the balls from the refs post-weigh in and deflate them? Smdh....

That's not it either. The league didn't conclude that he did that. They concluded it was likely that he was aware of it. The rules didn't provide for punishment for mere awareness of misconduct, not did it provide for punishment for noncooperation with an investigation. Those were the two things he was penalised for.

[shrader]

Does the CBA explicitly forbid a team from hiring Jeff Gillooly?

[Dibs]

This is a real problem. So let me get this straight...you have to think of everything there is that could happen (even things that are not available yet or have not been dreamed of yet) and make sure you apply a punishment for each and everyone in order for it to stick? That's a bunch of bull!!!

I don't think that driving a car onto the field would be covered. Perhaps if McCoy isn't quite healthy in week 1 he could do his RBing from behind the wheel.

 

The legal system is a joke. There should be more focus on the intent of the laws and justice rather than the minutea of the language.

 

Absolutely rediculous!

[DC Tom]

All I know is what I've heard in a few snippets so I could be wrong, but I thought the gist of the ruling was that the report only found that Brady was probably aware of misconduct and that the CBA doesn't provide for penalties for merely having general knowledge of misconduct.

 

Except that it does. Because of the open-ended "conduct unbecoming" catchall.

 

What's more, the player contracts specify it too.

 

 

Player recognizes the detriment to the League and professional football that would result from impairment of public confidence in the honest and orderly conduct of NFL games or the integrity and good character of NFL players. Player therefore acknowledges his awareness that if he [...stuff releated to gambling or PEDs...] or is guilty of any other form of conduct reasonably judged by the League Commissioner to be detrimental to the League or professional football, the Commissioner will have the right, but only after giving Player the opportunity for a hearing at which he may be represented by counsel of his choice, to fine Player in a reasonable amount; to suspend Player for a period certain or indefinitely; and/or to terminate this contract.

 

In short, the CBA provides for Goodell to do damn near anything he wants in disciplining players for "conduct detrimental." It's ridiculous, and Goodell's a complete ass, and I've said so since the Ray Rice case. But it's the CBA the NFLPA agreed to - Goodell was well within his rights and authority to suspend Brady if his "general awareness" harmed the integrity of the game and the league.

 

Which is why this decision invalidates pretty much all of Goodell's discipline. I could even argue that the substance abuse policy is null and void under this decision: though the NFL has a substance abuse policy, nowhere in the CBA is the commissioner authorized to punish players for violating it.

[HamSandwhich]

That's not it either. The league didn't conclude that he did that. They concluded it was likely that he was aware of it. The rules didn't provide for punishment for mere awareness of misconduct, not did it provide for punishment for noncooperation with an investigation. Those were the two things he was penalised for.

Again, so you're saying that the NFL has to come up with all conceivable ways that players can try give themselves and advantage and apply a punishment for each and every one? How ridiculous is that?

 

So everyone gets a get out of jail free card as long as it's the first time it happened?

 

Dumb dumb dumb

[sodbuster]

I wonder if the outcome would have been any different if the league had a way to place him on paid suspension, rather than have him forfeit his game checks.

[Mr. WEO]

The NFL shot themsleves in the foot. The Pash issue weighed heavily in the Judge's thninking and decision. He was convinced Pash was an investigator in the "Wells investigation", but was not made available for examination nor were his notes or Wells.

 

There is simply no excuse for this decision for the NFL. Just dumb, unless there is a reason they didn't want him questioned or there documents reviewed.

 

The Judge's decision is surprising though.

[DC Tom]

not in the slightest the argument. the issue is that they have a long history with both non-cooperation and equipment violations and punished in a way that is outside precedent. hence they had to compare it to steroid users, and not people that have tampered with equipment (surely not the first) or lied to investigators (surely not the first). unless you think no one has ever done either of those things in the league.

 

Really? What's the history of league discipline for tampering with in-game equipment?

 

Don't even bother referring to the CBA, since you obviously haven't read it (it says exactly nothing about league discipline for equipment violations.)

[YoloinOhio]

@Rachel__Nichols: NFL will appeal but confirms it won't seek a stay to keep Brady off the field while doing so. So: Brady plays, and #Deflategate never dies.

[DC Tom]

Again, so you're saying that the NFL has to come up with all conceivable ways that players can try give themselves and advantage and apply a punishment for each and every one? How ridiculous is that?

 

So everyone gets a get out of jail free card as long as it's the first time it happened?

 

Dumb dumb dumb

 

Yes. The crux of Berman's decision is lack of prior notice. which means that Goodell cannot punish first offenses for "conduct unbecoming." Even though he has the authority under the CBA.

[fridge]

I think this is appropriate today. Get ready for week 2 Tommy.

 

 

 

If this took place in 2015, Clements would have been flagged 15 yards, ejected, suspended the remainder of the season and fined an ungodly amount of money.

[Rob's House]

This is a real problem. So let me get this straight...you have to think of everything there is that could happen (even things that are not available yet or have not been dreamed of yet) and make sure you apply a punishment for each and everyone in order for it to stick? That's a bunch of bull!!!

That's not it exactly, but think about it in terms of law. You can use broad language to encompass types of behavior without spelling out every detail as long as the prohibited conduct is reasonably identifiable by the rule, but you can't make a rule after the fact and punish someone accordingly. In law that's called ex post facto and it's unconstitutional.

 

Or more simply, how can you break a rule that doesn't yet exist?

[CountDorkula]

 

If this took place in 2015, Clements would have been flagged 15 yards, ejected, suspended the remainder of the season and fined an ungodly amount of money.

Well worth it.

[YoloinOhio]

 

@SiriusXMNFL: Polian: It's always possible that he could serve a suspension in Dec/Jan if the 2nd circuit overturns this ruling but process moves slow.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

@SiriusXMNFL: Polian: It's always possible that he could serve a suspension in Dec/Jan if the 2nd circuit overturns this ruling but process moves slow.

just in time for the playoffs!

[YoloinOhio]

 

@SiriusXMNFL: Bill Polian: People who believe Brady is guilty will continue to believe that and the appeal process will take a long time. #TomBrady

[Rob's House]

 

Except that it does. Because of the open-ended "conduct unbecoming" catchall.

 

What's more, the player contracts specify it too.

 

 

Now that's !@#$ing interesting. I'll have to ponder that one. My first inclination is to say there must be some standard - I mean, who's to say that wearing a Speedo at the beach isn't conduct unbecoming - but that's a tough one.

[dubs]

Well - I for one don't really care about the outcome or if Brady plays at all.

For me - it's all about whether or not he cheated and IMO he obviously did. The second you cross that line, your accomplishments are diminished, IMO.

Edited September 3, 2015 by dubs

[PortlandiaEast]

 

If this took place in 2015, Clements would have been flagged 15 yards, ejected, suspended the remainder of the season and fined an ungodly amount of money.

I've seen that clip a bunch and this thought never crossed my mind, but I think you are right on the flag, maybe a 2 game suspension, and at least 50k fine. If you slow that clip down, he doesn't "launch" himself, and it looks like the hit is with his shoulder. But 1) its TB12, 2) Helmet comes off means the NFL wets themselves and does everything to protect Brady in the future.

 

Looks like a sweet hit to me. Worth the penalties all day long.

[Jobu]

After this season is up, it will be very interesting to take a look at Brady's stats and NE fumbling stats for that matter. The league is probably going to be watching pressure closer than a crack smoker watches his rocks. They will now be doing things like adjusting for atmosphere and using NIST approved gauges, My guess is that this season footballs will be more inflated than ever.

 

Wonder how Tommy's little girl hands will deal with that?

Edited September 3, 2015 by Show Me The Baby

[DC Tom]

Now that's !@#$ing interesting. I'll have to ponder that one. My first inclination is to say there must be some standard - I mean, who's to say that wearing a Speedo at the beach isn't conduct unbecoming - but that's a tough one.

 

There may be policies that outline "conduct unbecoming" in greater detail, but I haven't found them.

 

It's important to note, too, that Berman's support of "prior notice" relies on the extreme detail of the Substance Abuse Policy (which detail he describes) to establish the unfairness and lack of standing of Goodell's decision. So he is, at a basic level, saying that any policy for "conduct unbecoming" must outline the same detail for investigation and punishment. Which would also lead to the conclusion that anything NOT detailed in such a policy can't be punished. So if you find a new way to cheat...go for it!

 

It's an absolutely asinine section of the CBA, as I said. But I would have preferred seeing the NFLPA get slapped down for agreeing to it, rather than Goodell get slapped down for exercising it.

[PortlandiaEast]

In general though, its getting harder and harder to take professional sports seriously, NFL in particular. I really like the new NBA commish and the way he handles himself and the NBA.

 

Roger is nothingness in the NFL after this, the court system just neutered his authority. Every decision on conduct violations will now be challenged. He should step down. His reign was a failure.

[DC Tom]

I've seen that clip a bunch and this thought never crossed my mind, but I think you are right on the flag, maybe a 2 game suspension, and at least 50k fine. If you slow that clip down, he doesn't "launch" himself, and it looks like the hit is with his shoulder. But 1) its TB12, 2) Helmet comes off means the NFL wets themselves and does everything to protect Brady in the future.

 

Looks like a sweet hit to me. Worth the penalties all day long.

 

Except that he doesn't launch himself (if you go through it frame-by-frame, his feet never leave the ground), he doesn't lead with the helmet, he doesn't seem to go headhunting (even frame-by-frame it's hard to tell). But he'd still get the flag, suspension, and fine anyway, nowadays.

 

Hell, a full third of Bruce's sacks would result in penalties and fines nowadays. And Leon Seals' pancaking of Hostetler in the Superbowl doesn't even bear thinking about.

[shrader]

 

There may be policies that outline "conduct unbecoming" in greater detail, but I haven't found them.

 

It's important to note, too, that Berman's support of "prior notice" relies on the extreme detail of the Substance Abuse Policy (which detail he describes) to establish the unfairness and lack of standing of Goodell's decision. So he is, at a basic level, saying that any policy for "conduct unbecoming" must outline the same detail for investigation and punishment. Which would also lead to the conclusion that anything NOT detailed in such a policy can't be punished. So if you find a new way to cheat...go for it!

 

It's an absolutely asinine section of the CBA, as I said. But I would have preferred seeing the NFLPA get slapped down for agreeing to it, rather than Goodell get slapped down for exercising it.

 

Is the domestic abuse stuff in there at all? I'm getting random annoying emails from the wife's Boston area family saying that the league needs to focus on the real problems like all of the domestic abuse. I find all of this funny because if that stuff's not in there either, this ruling just effectively stopped him from being able to take a tougher stance against it. Or have they officially laid out how they plan on punishing for that?

[26CornerBlitz]

@nflcommish makes a statement on Brady’s suspension being nullified. He respectfully disagrees

[machine gun kelly]

Next step, the NFL takes this to appeal. He may have wished he accepted two games and be done with it. Now if overturned to the suspension it will be towards the end of the season when it counts.

[NoSaint]

 

There may be policies that outline "conduct unbecoming" in greater detail, but I haven't found them.

 

It's important to note, too, that Berman's support of "prior notice" relies on the extreme detail of the Substance Abuse Policy (which detail he describes) to establish the unfairness and lack of standing of Goodell's decision. So he is, at a basic level, saying that any policy for "conduct unbecoming" must outline the same detail for investigation and punishment. Which would also lead to the conclusion that anything NOT detailed in such a policy can't be punished. So if you find a new way to cheat...go for it!

 

It's an absolutely asinine section of the CBA, as I said. But I would have preferred seeing the NFLPA get slapped down for agreeing to it, rather than Goodell get slapped down for exercising it.

In the bright side, both sides have motivation to fix the system these days

[stevewin]

Again, so you're saying that the NFL has to come up with all conceivable ways that players can try give themselves and advantage and apply a punishment for each and every one? How ridiculous is that?

 

So everyone gets a get out of jail free card as long as it's the first time it happened?

 

Dumb dumb dumb

The Cheaters are doubling the amount of listening devices all over their facility as we speak

[NoSaint]

In general though, its getting harder and harder to take professional sports seriously, NFL in particular. I really like the new NBA commish and the way he handles himself and the NBA.

 

Roger is nothingness in the NFL after this, the court system just neutered his authority. Every decision on conduct violations will now be challenged. He should step down. His reign was a failure.

 

He's lost out on the last several big decisions- you just won't see anyone champion an abuser, while this is insignificant enough to be visibly advocated by people without fear of confining spousal or child abuse.

[HamSandwhich]

That's not it exactly, but think about it in terms of law. You can use broad language to encompass types of behavior without spelling out every detail as long as the prohibited conduct is reasonably identifiable by the rule, but you can't make a rule after the fact and punish someone accordingly. In law that's called ex post facto and it's unconstitutional.

 

Or more simply, how can you break a rule that doesn't yet exist?

This is semantics. There was language about conduct detrimental to the league, but apparently cheating is not detrimental.

[26CornerBlitz]

‏@nflnetwork

Statement from Patriots Chairman and CEO Robert Kraft on today’s decision

[Kelly the Dog]

That's not it either. The league didn't conclude that he did that. They concluded it was likely that he was aware of it. The rules didn't provide for punishment for mere awareness of misconduct, not did it provide for punishment for noncooperation with an investigation. Those were the two things he was penalised for.

One of the many mistakes the league made, although I'm not sure you can fault them for it, is the "generally aware" of wording. That is what they termed it but that is not what they determined. They determined that he did it and they knew he did it and they knew he was lying about it. But Wells had just used a legal definition and standard so that they didn't have to come out and say "We know you did this." In retrospect it wasn't strong enough. But the league did not in any way believe that he just had a general knowledge of it. Otherwise there would not have been the severe penalty. And the conclusions that Wells laid out in his report would not have come out that way. They knew he did it and was the ringleader.

[NoSaint]

One of the many mistakes the league made, although I'm not sure you can fault them for it, is the "generally aware" of wording. That is what they termed it but that is not what they determined. They determined that he did it and they knew he did it and they knew he was lying about it. But Wells had just used a legal definition and standard so that they didn't have to come out and say "We know you did this." In retrospect it wasn't strong enough. But the league did not in any way believe that he just had a general knowledge of it. Otherwise there would not have been the severe penalty. And the conclusions that Wells laid out in his report would not have come out that way. They knew he did it and was the ringleader.

Clearly they either felt less confident than you that they proved that, or they thought their power stretched further than others agree -- that phrasing is certainly one of the most intentional pieces of any of the documents they've released

[PlayoffsPlease]

Next step, the NFL takes this to appeal. He may have wished he accepted two games and be done with it. Now if overturned to the suspension it will be towards the end of the season when it counts.

 

Unlikely to get a date on the appeals calendar that is earlier than the end of this season. This is not a federal emergency.

[Direhard Fan]

Roger has to go. Why didn't they get the equipment men in the court? Why did NE fire them if they didn't so anything?. Why hasn't ESPN gotten the Equipment men on TV. We are going to see the same Brady this year. Protected and crying all the way to the bank. Sad- very sad. Resign Roger.

[PlayoffsPlease]

 

@nflcommish makes a statement on Brady’s suspension being nullified. He respectfully disagrees

 

 

Roger needs to let it go. As a taxpayer I am a bit pissed off about anymore tax dollars being used to litigate a soft football.

[Kelly the Dog]

Mario should have a ballboy steal all the balls before the Pats game and stick a tiny chip in them, then Mario could employ and hide a sharpshooter at the Ralph with an air rifle, and every pass that Brady throws over ten yards the sniper will just shoot it out of the sky with help from the GPS chip. They really can't fault Mario or punish him for it because they didn't ever establish that there is a punishment for hiring snipers to blow the balls out of the sky before.

Clearly they either felt less confident than you that they proved that, or they thought their power stretched further than others agree -- that phrasing is certainly one of the most intentional pieces of any of the documents they've released

I think they surely felt that they had the power. It wasn't a confidence factor. The litany of problems that Wells had with the entire thing and everything he meticulously laid out made it very clear what they thought.

[Tuco]

Next step, the NFL takes this to appeal. He may have wished he accepted two games and be done with it. Now if overturned to the suspension it will be towards the end of the season when it counts.

I'd be surprised. The appellate court will not be so accommodating as to issue a ruling based on any deadlines. More likely Brady will be retired and remarried by the time it gets resolved now.