Orton's accuracy

[BADOLBILZ]

IMO we saw two things undo Orton in the second half.

 

First, from my vantage at the front of the upper deck near midfield the coverage schemes were excellent and they were rarely in bad coverage matchup situations all day. They were in Hackett's back pocket and Orton had a hard time finding easy looks. They encouraged the Bills to run the ball and the Bills rewarded them by not putting points on the board.

 

Second....and most importantly, I think that Orton's lack of physical strength showed. 17 pitches......he's good for. 49 is another matter. He is the physically weakest, most flat-footed QB in the league and there isn't a close second. There isn't much he can do about it now, he was basically retired until 2 months ago but throwing the football 45-50 times is a 100+ pitch outing for a baseball pitcher and the first thing that goes is the location. I think he was about 10 pitches past his limit. His offseason objective should be about 20# of muscle in the legs and core.

[Captain Hindsight]

Careful. Orton can apparently walk on water and its not his fault he couldn't complete a pass in the end zone to wide open receivers

 

I'm going to assume its all Cj's fault

[FireChan]

Careful. Orton can apparently walk on water and its not his fault he couldn't complete a pass in the end zone to wide open receivers

 

I'm going to assume its all Cj's fault

 

No one said either of these things.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I agree with some of this. I thought Orton's arm looked tired and I have been struck all season about his flat footedneds-- would have thought a guy like him would mask lack of a big arm with better lower body mechanics.

[GG]

 

 

No one said either of these things.

 

He just said it above, so it must be true.

[Doc]

Careful. Orton can apparently walk on water and its not his fault he couldn't complete a pass in the end zone to wide open receivers

 

I'm going to assume its all Cj's EJ's fault

Fixed it for you.

[Buffalo Boy]

He can't throw a dump to the flat without the back having to jump for it, from his first start on. He gets the ball in the vicinity of player often, not to good spots. Balls are high, low behind, over the wrong shoulder. He seems to have absolutely no pocket awareness at times. He is MEDIOCRE. I don't see us beating the Fins on Thursday and then it should be EJ time again. We are NOT going to the Playoffs:(

[Gray Beard]

Thanks for pointing that out (not being sarcastic).

The idea that Orton's arm was turning to mush because he threw it too many times hadn't occurred to me.

It makes a lot of sense.

An interesting twist that once again points to coaches not understanding the situation.

[jaybee]

LOL ! Everyone was talking about how he was rated in the top 6 (or thereabouts) last week. All good. He has a less than stellar performance yesterday and now he's flat-footed, has no pocket awareness, puts the ball in bad spots etc. C'mon guys.

[Orton's Arm]

Are you suggesting that Orton started out accurate, but became progressively less accurate as the game progressed and his arm tired?

[JohnC]

IMO we saw two things undo Orton in the second half.

 

First, from my vantage at the front of the upper deck near midfield the coverage schemes were excellent and they were rarely in bad coverage matchup situations all day. They were in Hackett's back pocket and Orton had a hard time finding easy looks. They encouraged the Bills to run the ball and the Bills rewarded them by not putting points on the board.

 

Second....and most importantly, I think that Orton's lack of physical strength showed. 17 pitches......he's good for. 49 is another matter. He is the physically weakest, most flat-footed QB in the league and there isn't a close second. There isn't much he can do about it now, he was basically retired until 2 months ago but throwing the football 45-50 times is a 100+ pitch outing for a baseball pitcher and the first thing that goes is the location. I think he was about 10 pitches past his limit. His offseason objective should be about 20# of muscle in the legs and core.

 

Orton is playing at an Orton level. He is what he is: adequate. He is a heady game manager type qb who when he is in rhythm is effective. He is a very immobile qb who when he has to throw while moving is not very effective. In general I thought he had a poor game. There were some critical drops (Wood most egregious/hit him in the breadbasket) and some tough penalties (the Chandler miniscule push off) that changed the flow of the game against the Bills.

 

I don't want to give the impression that I don't like Orton. He salvaged the season when he took over for the unready young qb. But if you want to have a serious team you have to have a top third qb in order to be able to compete for anything serious. If you don't have that caliber of qb the margin for error is very small, as demonstrated in yesterday's game.

 

It was very apparent in this game that Watkins was hindered by his groin issue. He simply didn't have the explosion in this game that he usually has. Jackson also was hampered with the groin problem. I don't see either of these two players at a peak level going into the Miami game.

 

What surprised me in this game, especially in the second half was that the OL was creating lanes that both backs took advantage of by decisively hitting the holes. That is one positive coming out of this game. If Brown wouldn't have fumbled away the game he would have been the offensive player of the game.

[CardinalScotts]

IMO we saw two things undo Orton in the second half.

 

First, from my vantage at the front of the upper deck near midfield the coverage schemes were excellent and they were rarely in bad coverage matchup situations all day. They were in Hackett's back pocket and Orton had a hard time finding easy looks. They encouraged the Bills to run the ball and the Bills rewarded them by not putting points on the board.

 

Second....and most importantly, I think that Orton's lack of physical strength showed. 17 pitches......he's good for. 49 is another matter. He is the physically weakest, most flat-footed QB in the league and there isn't a close second. There isn't much he can do about it now, he was basically retired until 2 months ago but throwing the football 45-50 times is a 100+ pitch outing for a baseball pitcher and the first thing that goes is the location. I think he was about 10 pitches past his limit. His offseason objective should be about 20# of muscle in the legs and core.

 

he was a bit off Sunday mixed with Watkins injury it wasn't what it has been, still goes back to Bryce Brown. He's a timing QB, but he throws a tight spiral and has been good in bad weather. This is classic over reaction. The first thing to go is your mechanics as a baseball pitcher

[thewildrabbit]

IMO we saw two things undo Orton in the second half.

 

First, from my vantage at the front of the upper deck near midfield the coverage schemes were excellent and they were rarely in bad coverage matchup situations all day. They were in Hackett's back pocket and Orton had a hard time finding easy looks. They encouraged the Bills to run the ball and the Bills rewarded them by not putting points on the board.

 

Second....and most importantly, I think that Orton's lack of physical strength showed. 17 pitches......he's good for. 49 is another matter. He is the physically weakest, most flat-footed QB in the league and there isn't a close second. There isn't much he can do about it now, he was basically retired until 2 months ago but throwing the football 45-50 times is a 100+ pitch outing for a baseball pitcher and the first thing that goes is the location. I think he was about 10 pitches past his limit. His offseason objective should be about 20# of muscle in the legs and core.

IMO this goes back to coaching, and how they utilize their players. The coaches couldn't seem to get the most of of Spiller either. With Jim Kelly in his later years the coaches tried to limit his passes so he wouldn't wear down towards the end of the season, same with any older QB.

 

 

The bigger questions might be...when the O line is doing well, and the run game is working so well to the tune of averaging 5.0 yards per carry why run only 22 times, and pass 48 times? Then why throw 48 times against the #1 pass defense in the NFL?

[Orton's Arm]

IMO this goes back to coaching, and how they utilize their players. The coaches couldn't seem to get the most of of Spiller either. With Jim Kelly in his later years the coaches tried to limit his passes so he wouldn't wear down towards the end of the season, same with any older QB.

 

 

The bigger questions might be...when the O line is doing well, and the run game is working so well to the tune of averaging 5.0 yards per carry why run only 22 times, and pass 48 times? Then why throw 48 times against the #1 pass defense in the NFL?

 

> The bigger questions might be...when the O line is doing well, and the run game is working so well to

> the tune of averaging 5.0 yards per carry why run only 22 times, and pass 48 times?

 

An excellent question.

 

Against the Jets, the Bills' offense averaged 2.0 yards per carry, and 14 yards per pass attempt. Hackett, being the genius that he is, chose to run it two plays for every one passing play.

 

This time around he went up against a team with a great pass defense but a lousy run defense. The Bills' best WR was playing hurt. So why not call two pass plays for every running play?

 

On another matter, it's possible that Watkins' injury interfered with the timing between himself and Orton. Both because of running differently due to the injury itself, and because of the missed practices.

[Dorkington]

64.5% on the year... so he had a game with a few poorly thrown balls, so far, overall, he's been pretty accurate.

 

 

This doesn't really show that KO gets much worse as the game goes on...

Edited November 11, 2014 by Dorkington

[phypon]

Ha, you're funny. Sorry, but EJ's not the answer. I'm pretty sure no one here has said that Orton is the franchise man either. We all know what we have in Orton. With the exception of a rate few, you're only pointing out the obvious.

[John from Riverside]

I asked this question today and it went unanswered....

 

- Are elite QBs allowed to have bad games (and I am not suggesting that Orton is Elite)

 

if the answer is yest

 

- THen why cant a GOOD game managing QB like Orton be allowed to have one before being questioned to death.......

 

Say what you want about Orton....but he has gotten progressively better in his stats every year he has played (keep in mind TEAM WINS is just that....a TEAM stat)

 

Now throw in the fact that Orton was being asked to chuck it against the BEST pass defense in the NFL EVEN THOUGH our running game was actually working quite well.....

 

Anyone?

[Coach Tuesday]

It's definitely something to monitor. The guy was a retired non-athlete as of August 1. He is on the wrong side of 32 and never had much athleticism to begin with. He had a few weeks to prepare for the season and then a few weeks of clipboard-holding before being handed the starting job. And now we're past the midseason mark where players start to wear down a bit. His mechanics definitely looked off on Sunday, after a bye week no less. The dude clearly is not in tip-top shape. Let's see if things continue to unravel for him or if, as some here are suggesting, it was "just one bad game." Put me in the "regressing to the mean" camp, but the jury's still out.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Careful. Orton can apparently walk on water and its not his fault he couldn't complete a pass in the end zone to wide open receivers

 

I'm going to assume its all Cj's fault

:worthy:

:beer:

 

Fixed it for you.

good one Doc

 

64.5% on the year... so he had a game with a few poorly thrown balls, so far, overall, he's been pretty accurate.

 

 

This doesn't really show that KO gets much worse as the game goes on...

YOU are ignoring the issue where he had 4 opportunities to win the game at the 2 minute mark where all 4 passes were off target?

 

The same Orton who was being highly bragged about for having a a very high QBR rating in the 4th......... what was it 130+?

The same Orton who was being highly bragged about for having a high red zone rate in his first 2 games?

 

He is who many thought he is.

[thebandit27]

IMO we saw two things undo Orton in the second half.

 

First, from my vantage at the front of the upper deck near midfield the coverage schemes were excellent and they were rarely in bad coverage matchup situations all day. They were in Hackett's back pocket and Orton had a hard time finding easy looks. They encouraged the Bills to run the ball and the Bills rewarded them by not putting points on the board.

 

Second....and most importantly, I think that Orton's lack of physical strength showed. 17 pitches......he's good for. 49 is another matter. He is the physically weakest, most flat-footed QB in the league and there isn't a close second. There isn't much he can do about it now, he was basically retired until 2 months ago but throwing the football 45-50 times is a 100+ pitch outing for a baseball pitcher and the first thing that goes is the location. I think he was about 10 pitches past his limit. His offseason objective should be about 20# of muscle in the legs and core.

 

I could buy the pitch-count explanation if Orton wasn't missing guys early on as well. After they ran through the scripted plays, he just looked off all day. Now, that doesn't mean that the pitch-count point is incorrect per se; I'm just not convinced that it's the only issue at play (or even the most critical).

[rumblefish]

one back step, and posters want to throw in the towel, after Thursday night all will be calm in the kingdom again, till next misstep ,oh ye of little faith, have some and the world will be a better place

[Dorkington]

YOU are ignoring the issue where he had 4 opportunities to win the game at the 2 minute mark where all 4 passes were off target?

 

The same Orton who was being highly bragged about for having a a very high QBR rating in the 4th......... what was it 130+?

The same Orton who was being highly bragged about for having a high red zone rate in his first 2 games?

 

He is who many thought he is.

 

So, this one game, cancels out the previous strong showings in the 4th quarter.

 

Got it.

 

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

So, this one game, cancels out the previous strong showings in the 4th quarter.

 

Got it.

 

how do you miss such a simple concept? the game was in Mr 4th QTR's hands with 1st and 15 and he failed to win the game,

 

You can blame EJ for losing the game on a final series, just not Orton. Got it

 

Didn't you also just say you'd be OK with putting EJ back in once the Bills are eliminated from the playoffs?

 

that does not compute.

Edited November 11, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[ProcessAccepted]

how do you miss such a simple concept? the game was in Mr 4th QTR's hands with 1st and 15 and he failed to win the game,

 

You can blame EJ for losing the game on a final series, just not Orton. Got it

 

Didn't you also just say you'd be OK with putting EJ back in once the Bills are eliminated from the playoffs?

 

that does not compute.

 

Thing is EJ lost games way before the 4th quarter. I'm just not a fan of overreacting to a game or a possession. EJ's accuracy is an oxymoron, lets face it the guy doesn't have any. This was not Orton's best game for us but the over pursuit on the 4-1 and nobody accounting for Charles was right up there with the Fumble going into the end zone were the real killers. McKelvins not as much. Orton is a seat filler until we get a legitimate contender for a franchise QB. He's done a good job of it and has us in the conversation. He's missed some throws but he's also hit some great ones to win us games.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Catch it Sammy

[thewildrabbit]

It's definitely something to monitor. The guy was a retired non-athlete as of August 1. He is on the wrong side of 32 and never had much athleticism to begin with. He had a few weeks to prepare for the season and then a few weeks of clipboard-holding before being handed the starting job. And now we're past the midseason mark where players start to wear down a bit. His mechanics definitely looked off on Sunday, after a bye week no less. The dude clearly is not in tip-top shape. Let's see if things continue to unravel for him or if, as some here are suggesting, it was "just one bad game." Put me in the "regressing to the mean" camp, but the jury's still out.

Good points. Plus, there could be many reasons as to why a QB has a slightly off day. But nothing compared to EJ's day against Houston.

 

If he took a hard hit early, and slightly injured something it has an effect. If he took a hard hit and his mental timer says get the ball out earlier it has an effect. So many things can contribute to a QB having a slightly off day, and Orton looked like he never did get into a proper rhythm .

 

My problem isn't with the QB, its with the coaching staff not recognizing that the QB wasn't fully in sync, and just kept calling passing play after passing play. Especially when the run game was working so well to the tune of 5.0 YPC avg. Then considering the Chiefs did have the #1 pass defense in the league, and Orton didn't want to force passes. He didn't have a turnover all game. In my view Orton was the least of the issues in that game.

[Dorkington]

how do you miss such a simple concept? the game was in Mr 4th QTR's hands with 1st and 15 and he failed to win the game,

 

You can blame EJ for losing the game on a final series, just not Orton. Got it

 

Didn't you also just say you'd be OK with putting EJ back in once the Bills are eliminated from the playoffs?

 

that does not compute.

 

Like I said, KO didn't have a great game, he didn't win the game for us in the final moments like he did against Detroit and Minnesota. That's going to happen sometimes, especially since KO is an average to slightly above average starting NFL QB at best.

 

EJ needs time to develop, the reason he got pulled is because he's not the best QB on the team *currently*.

 

I said I was fine with EJ as the starter if we are eliminated from the playoffs to give him more playtime to develop, since it won't really matter if we win or lose at that point.

 

It only doesn't compute for you because you have some sort of illogical hatred for KO, or love for EJ, or you just enjoy trolling.

 

I said I was going to ignore you in the past, and I think I need to stick with that. Cheers.

[The Frankish Reich]

If QBs didn't have such delicate egos, we'd see EJ in there on short yardage plays. Orton's total lack of mobility really shows in those situations. Hell, even on that one "scramble" where he came up a yard short, every QB in the league other than Peyton maybe would've made the first down.

[ProcessAccepted]

If QBs didn't have such delicate egos, we'd see EJ in there on short yardage plays. Orton's total lack of mobility really shows in those situations. Hell, even on that one "scramble" where he came up a yard short, every QB in the league other than Peyton maybe would've made the first down.

 

It's not just QBs egos, its rhythm and leadership. I'm not aware of any situation at anytime were switching QBs in and out ever worked consistently. I think that is why the Jets brought in Tebow and we all laughed at them.

 

What we also have to remember about EJ is that his teammates chose not to vote him as a captain. There's not many QBs out there without the "C" on their jerseys. Also if EJ was such a great threat in short yardage we'd have been much better in the red zone

[Buftex]

64.5% on the year... so he had a game with a few poorly thrown balls, so far, overall, he's been pretty accurate.

 

 

This doesn't really show that KO gets much worse as the game goes on...

 

Other than the 4 attempts in the redzone at the end of the game, I think Orton has been fine with his accuracy...not perfect...but good enough. People over-react to everything here...good and bad. On those 4 attempts, I think he was making the cardinal sin (which EJ is guilty of more often than not), of throwing the ball so that it doesn't get intercepted, rather than throwing a good pass that can be caught.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Buftex

[Jauronimo]

Since when is 45 pass attempts the same as throwing 100 fastballs? Do I just need to accept this in good faith?

[Big Gun]

:worthy:

:beer:

 

good one Doc

 

 

YOU are ignoring the issue where he had 4 opportunities to win the game at the 2 minute mark where all 4 passes were off target?

 

The same Orton who was being highly bragged about for having a a very high QBR rating in the 4th......... what was it 130+?

The same Orton who was being highly bragged about for having a high red zone rate in his first 2 games?

 

He is who many thought he is.

 

Yes Orton is, you are absolutely correct, he is light years better than EJ Manuel as many here thought. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

but throwing the football 45-50 times is a 100+ pitch outing for a baseball pitcher

 

How'd you get to that correlation? I can see a tire arm but throwing a football is completely different to an arm than tossing footballs. Has a qb ever had Tommy johns?

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

I said I was going to ignore you in the past, and I think I need to stick with that. Cheers.

Its simple as this. I'm a dick to people who trash me for my posts when dozens of others say the same damn thing.

 

Lay of the BS and so will I.

 

Yes Orton is, you are absolutely correct, he is light years better than EJ Manuel as many here thought. Thanks for pointing that out.

keep it up rookie.

you need to research the word "light year"

 

We have a saying here .... never mind. I'll be the bigger man and let it go.

 

oh screw it .....

 

You're an Idiot for bringing up EJ when I did not

Edited November 11, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[Maddog69]

 

 

Yes Orton is, you are absolutely correct, he is light years better than EJ Manuel as many here thought. Thanks for pointing that out.

Simply not true. In every stat I can find, he is marginally better. QBR, completion percentage, redzone efficiency. Etc. KO is a few percentage points above EJ. That's 2-3 plays a game. Let's not pretend Orton is Johnny Unitas. He isn't. But you Orton nuthuggers won't admit it. Orton is not "the long term answer" at QB. Orton is mediocre. And Orton blew it badly on Sunday. He is the reason the Bills did not win the game. He's 3-2 as the starter (and would be 2-3 if Detroit would have had a decent kicker). My frustration is how so many people on this board cruicify EJ for exactly this type of game but find every possible excuse for the 10yr veteran.

 

 

[rumblefish]

when comes down to it on who should be the starting qb."to err is human", to keep chewing on the choice, is "reparative"

[Dorkington]

Simply not true. In every stat I can find, he is marginally better. QBR, completion percentage, redzone efficiency. Etc. KO is a few percentage points above EJ. That's 2-3 plays a game. Let's not pretend Orton is Johnny Unitas. He isn't. But you Orton nuthuggers won't admit it. Orton is not "the long term answer" at QB. Orton is mediocre. And Orton blew it badly on Sunday. He is the reason the Bills did not win the game. He's 3-2 as the starter (and would be 2-3 if Detroit would have had a decent kicker). My frustration is how so many people on this board cruicify EJ for exactly this type of game but find every possible excuse for the 10yr veteran.

 

We clearly didn't watch the same game.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Simply not true. In every stat I can find, he is marginally better. QBR, completion percentage, redzone efficiency. Etc. KO is a few percentage points above EJ. That's 2-3 plays a game. Let's not pretend Orton is Johnny Unitas. He isn't. But you Orton nuthuggers won't admit it. Orton is not "the long term answer" at QB. Orton is mediocre. And Orton blew it badly on Sunday. He is the reason the Bills did not win the game. He's 3-2 as the starter (and would be 2-3 if Detroit would have had a decent kicker). My frustration is how so many people on this board cruicify EJ for exactly this type of game but find every possible excuse for the 10yr veteran.

prepare for the onslaught of the 5 musketeers (5 orton super fans)

[bananathumb]

Marrone has been given credit for saving the season by benching EJ, but in fact it was just another dumb mistake.

With EJ still in, we might miss the playoffs, but see some development.

With Orton in, we might miss the playoffs, but see no development from our first round pick, whom Whaley sees as our future QB.

 

Just another moronic move by the dumbest coach to ever be hired in BLO.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

Simply not true. In every stat I can find, he is marginally better. QBR, completion percentage, redzone efficiency. Etc. KO is a few percentage points above EJ. That's 2-3 plays a game. Let's not pretend Orton is Johnny Unitas. He isn't. But you Orton nuthuggers won't admit it. Orton is not "the long term answer" at QB. Orton is mediocre. And Orton blew it badly on Sunday. He is the reason the Bills did not win the game. He's 3-2 as the starter (and would be 2-3 if Detroit would have had a decent kicker). My frustration is how so many people on this board cruicify EJ for exactly this type of game but find every possible excuse for the 10yr veteran.

Orton had a bad game. Especially in the red zone on Sunday. It happens. Let's see how he does on Thursday. He was also with out a 100% Sammy with whom he did not practice with all week. He needs to play better in the Red Zone which was one of his strength going into this game.

 

Marrone has been given credit for saving the season by benching EJ, but in fact it was just another dumb mistake.

With EJ still in, we might miss the playoffs, but see some development.

With Orton in, we might miss the playoffs, but see no development from our first round pick, whom Whaley sees as our future QB.

 

Just another moronic move by the dumbest coach to ever be hired in BLO.

That is not true ... EJ needed to see how Kyle handles the huddle, practices, and meetings. He never had that experience with Kolb out. Now that he has seen, and hopefully learned it, he is in a better position than when he was benched. To believe otherwise is not being objective.

[Maddog69]

Marrone has been given credit for saving the season by benching EJ, but in fact it was just another dumb mistake.

With EJ still in, we might miss the playoffs, but see some development.

With Orton in, we might miss the playoffs, but see no development from our first round pick, whom Whaley sees as our future QB.

 

Just another moronic move by the dumbest coach to ever be hired in BLO.

Marrone was trying to save his job by playing Orton. Seems like players were frustrated with EJ. Marrone felt Orton gave him the best chance to get to a winning record and keep his job for another year. I don't blame him for making it. The question is, should Russ and Whalley demanded that he continue to develop EJ? I say no. Marrone should have authority to decide who plays and control his own fate. From the beginning, I understood the move but disagreed with it. It seems like a wasted year for a first Rd pick. But maybe the benching was hood for EJ. Maybe he comes back in with more fire when he gets his next chance. Who knows.

 

 

 

e needs to play better in the Red Zone which was one of his strength going into this game.

 

I would not say this was a Strength. He was better than EJ but still towards the bottom of the league in red zone efficiency.

Excluding Sunday's game, we were 8 of 16 in the redzone with KO. 50% would be tied for 25th in the league. Not really a strength although the Orton lovers always wrongly say it is.