The Affordable Care Act II - Because Mr. Obama Loves You All

[Doc Brown]

It's because the Republicans did the same, they "obstructed" with Obama's agenda and it paid off huge electoral dividends.

 

Dem's are doing the exact same thing but now are taking it to a whole new level, hoping to get similar results.

 

The way an ideal system should be run is where the politicians represent all their constituents not just their most ardent supporters. With the primary system we have in place, and the way information is now disseminated at warp speed, and voters primarily deciding to get news from sources that conform with their pre existing held views, it is no wonder we have the bankrupt governance that we have today.

 

Yeah. Confirmation bias has always been there since the inception of our country, but cable news, talk radio, and the internet have divided us even further putting more pressure on politicians to simply obstruct nearly anything the opposition does. As for health care, the GOP will need a bigger advantage in the Senate in '18 if they hope to get a new bill through as the gap between the GOP moderates and the more conservative politicians in the Senate is too big to even reach a compromise.

[Magox]

 

Yeah. Confirmation bias has always been there since the inception of our country, but cable news, talk radio, and the internet have divided us even further putting more pressure on politicians to simply obstruct nearly anything the opposition does. As for health care, the GOP will need a bigger advantage in the Senate in '18 if they hope to get a new bill through as the gap between the GOP moderates and the more conservative politicians in the Senate is too big to even reach a compromise.

 

Even if they did, it wouldn't last. There is no way that we are going back to a system where tens of millions of more people go without health insurance. This is not about arguing what the role of government should be, or what should be done but more in practical terms of what the country expects. If Repubs do a full repeal, it will be the actual substantive rallying call for all liberals to run on, which is to get Single payer healthcare for all. Right now, Dem's are running on empty, the only thing they have is Trump this, Trump that, Russia Russia Russia. That may net a few electoral gains but not enough to lead to a clear mandate. If Repubs "take away" healthcare from tens of millions of people, the mandate will be there for Dems to do something.

[BringBackOrton]

Are you trying to say you didn't post the following earlier in this thread or are you backtracking by claiming it was sarcasm?

 

jmc12290, on 16 Jul 2017 - 2:54 PM, said:

Backtracking? I supported that sarcastic quip with virtually every post I've made in this thread.

 

I knew you had to have some mental deficits to engage gator daily, but this is truly shocking.

[Joe Miner]

 

Even if they did, it wouldn't last. There is no way that we are going back to a system where tens of millions of more people go without health insurance. This is not about arguing what the role of government should be, or what should be done but more in practical terms of what the country expects. If Repubs do a full repeal, it will be the actual substantive rallying call for all liberals to run on, which is to get Single payer healthcare for all. Right now, Dem's are running on empty, the only thing they have is Trump this, Trump that, Russia Russia Russia. That may net a few electoral gains but not enough to lead to a clear mandate. If Repubs "take away" healthcare from tens of millions of people, the mandate will be there for Dems to do something.

So if they repeal it - single payer

 

If they don't repeal it - single payer

 

Either way gop looks bad.

 

At this point they may as well just repeal it and try to save some gave with their base because that's all they'll have left.

[Magox]

So if they repeal it - single payer

 

If they don't repeal it - single payer

 

Either way gop looks bad.

 

At this point they may as well just repeal it and try to save some gave with their base because that's all they'll have left.

 

I've been wrong plenty of times about various things.

 

With that said, I think this is a tough one for the GOP, they over promised what they cannot deliver. The country with the media helps will incessantly focus on 3 things and only one of them is something that the GOP's ideas could help

 

A) Expanding coverage - GOP fails this test (from the perspective of more than half the country and the media)

B) Pre Existing coverage - GOP fails this test (from the perspective of more than half the country and the media)

C) Reducing Premiums - This is where the GOP could score well but even then there is a caveat, they would be reducing some coverage for this to happen and even then they still get bad media coverage. Not to mention that the Democrats are proposing Subsidies which lowers people's premiums

 

My hopes is that the GOP accepts the fact that the country wants expanded coverage and realizes that their only hope of instituting a long-term solution that could be viable would include a government partnership with the market driven concepts. There are lots of things that they could do that could work and achieve all of the above. If the system begins to work and coverage doesn't drop off all that badly from where it is along with more choice and lower premiums then there is a chance it could sustain itself.

 

The problem is that what the ACA does is something that people can actually see, feel and benefit from. When people get Medicaid, that is a direct benefit that constituent receives. When someone didn't have coverage and was denied to Pre Ex and now is able to get coverage, that is something they feel the impact of that benefit. When someone gets a big subsidy to help pay for their coverage and now are paying much less, again it is a direct benefit. It's hard to take that away once it has been given.

 

Many conservatives offer market driven ideas with more choice which lowers premiums for some middle class folks. But in comparison to what the Dem's offer with the subsidies, more people benefit than those that suffer the rising premiums. In regards to taxes and what it does to the National Debt, the majority of the taxes are levied on the wealthy, so people by in large don't have a problem with that. The debt, and the hidden taxes no one really seems to care anymore. For most people it is abstract concept where they don't see the impact of what these things do. Their perception is that they don't feel the impact of increasing debt and taxes, but if you take away their healthcare that was given to them, then that is something that they will noticeably feel.

[ALF]

GOP is in control till at least the 2018 Congress election.

 

That will be a very important referendum . ACA needs big changes to work , repeal without improve would be a disaster.

 

Can Congress pass Trump's extreme promises ?

Edited July 18, 2017 by ALF

[HappyDays]

Thought this Vox post was a pretty good explanation of everything:

 

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2017/7/18/15987252/obamacare-repeal-working-mcconnell

 

But even without improvements, the reality is that for most people, in most places, the Affordable Care Act is working. The bulk of its coverage expansion has been through Medicaid, which is immune to the problems of the insurance marketplaces. Surveys find that Medicaid enrollees really like their coverage; theyre just as satisfied as people who get health insurance at work. Indeed, the Medicaid expansion has proven so popular, and so effective, that Senate Republicans from Medicaid-expanding states like Ohio and Nevada have been fighting to preserve it.

 

Nor are the exchanges in anything close to a state of collapse. More than 10 million people are buying insurance off Obamacares exchanges, and surveys show most of them are happy with their plans. While there are some counties at risk of beginning 2018 without participating insurers, the total number is quite small 38 out of 3,143 counties, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation.

 

Nor has the Affordable Care Act seen exploding costs either in the program or in the health care system more broadly; the ACA has cost less than the Congressional Budget Office expected, and spending growth in the health system overall has been at historic lows (an achievement for which Obamacare deserves some, though not all, of the credit). Cost control in the health system has been so unexpectedly effective that the government is now projected to spend less on health care with Obamacare than we were projected to spend without Obamacare.

Obamacares biggest problem is the high cost sharing that frustrates those who buy coverage on the marketplaces. But all of the Republican bills would lead to higher deductibles, higher copays, sparer insurance, and, on an apples-to-apples basis, higher premiums. The reasons for this are simple: The GOP bills cancel the individual mandate, which pushes young and healthy people to buy health insurance, and then take hundreds of billions of dollars Obamacare is currently spending to make insurance more affordable and spend it instead on tax cuts and deficit reduction.

 

If the Affordable Care Act were truly as bad as Republicans say it is, it would be easier to replace. Hell, if it were as bad as they say it is, straight repeal would be an improvement but even conservative Republicans dont dare discuss repeal without some kind of vague, wonderful replacement.

[ALF]

Very good post Happy Days , I agree

[reddogblitz]

Even if they did, it wouldn't last. There is no way that we are going back to a system where tens of millions of more people go without health insurance.

 

Back to? We're already there.

 

Number of persons under age 65 uninsured at the time of interview: 28.4 million

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/health-insurance.htm

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Back to? We're already there.

 

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/health-insurance.htm

 

So basically, Obamacare fixed nothing. about 30 million people are STILL uninsured.

[Magox]

That article is one-sided, which is what you would expect from Vox.

 

And they are wrong, premiums are exploding but those exploding premiums are masked by the subsidies. Also, most people that are on the exchanges aren't thrilled with the coverage, they are happy that they can finally get coverage but they don't like the coverage in itself. The vast majority of the plans on the exchanges are HMO's with extremely tiny networks and lower quality hospitals, doctors and medical providers. That's a fact, not an opinion.

 

But, at least they are able to get coverage, which of course is better than not having coverage at all.

 

That would have been a more honest account to what is happening with the ACA rather than what I just read from them.

 

So basically, Obamacare fixed nothing. about 30 million people are STILL uninsured.

 

RedDogBlitz has troubles understanding what he reads, does that apply to you as well?

 

Before the ACA there were 47-48 million people without health insurance, 18% of the population. Now that number has gone down by 20 million which is about 10% of the population.

 

I didn't say tens of millions of people would be without coverage I said tens of millions of MORE people would be without coverage.

[ALF]

So the healthcare system in the U.S. is fubar

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

I'll ask again

 

 

Q - How many Democrats are working on writing the new bill?

 

 

If the Dems are not there to work on a replacement can they be blamed for what is going on since early spring time?

[Azalin]

If the Dems are not there to work on a replacement can they be blamed for what is going on since early spring time?

 

 

Until the republicans actually manage to make any kind of change to the ACA, the democrats will get full credit for whatever transpires.

[B-Man]

Nothing has happened since early spring..............thats the point.

 

 

So the obvious plan is....................

 

 

"We're not going to own it. I'm not going to own it. I can tell you the Republicans are not going to own it."

"We'll let Obamacare fail and then the Democrats are going to come to us and they're going to say to us, how do we fix it, how do we fix it, or how do we come up with a new plan?"

[grinreaper]

Backtracking? I supported that sarcastic quip with virtually every post I've made in this thread.

 

I knew you had to have some mental deficits to engage gator daily, but this is truly shocking.

You don't post down here much and your initial post on this subject gave me no reason to believe you were being sarcastic. Maybe if there was some history there I would have been able to assume that. Regardless, if you were being sarcastic, kudos to you. I don't engage gator daily. In fact I rarely if ever "engage" gator. I mock him.

[row_33]

Nobody voted for Trump seriously counting on a health plan. The more they scream it's going to kill him the better off he is, for the 299th straight time now.

 

[Magox]

 

Until the republicans actually manage to make any kind of change to the ACA, the democrats will get full credit for whatever transpires.

 

I'm afraid Azalin, that is wishful thinking. Even though I do believe that Democrats should bear the brunt of the failures of the ACA moving forward, there are things that Trump is doing to undermine the law and cause premiums to go even higher such as threatening to take away the cost sharing provisions and uncertainty if there will even be a penalty for not having insurance. Both of these things from a substantive level are causing prices to go up even higher.

 

Plus, most people don't like Trump so everything he touches automatically is soured upon from the American public. He and Republicans said they'd fix it and the American public are expecting him to do just that.

 

Republicans should be wary of cheering President Trump’s repeated promises that the Affordable Care Act will “implode.”

Polls suggest that if the president’s claims are proven true, it’s the GOP that will receive the brunt of the blame from voters.

A poll conducted by the Kaiser Family Foundation finds that 61 percent of voters say that they will hold Trump and Congressional Republicans responsible for future problems associated with Obamacare.

Only 31 percent say they will assign responsibility to former President Barack Obama and Congressional Democrats, who put the law in place seven years ago.

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Magox

[B-Large]

...without their health care plan, GOP has no funding for tax reform

They could do tons without the funding, I'd like to see a tax proposal that could be done on a 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper every year. Simple, simple, simple.

[DC Tom]

They could do tons without the funding, I'd like to see a tax proposal that could be done on a 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper every year. Simple, simple, simple.

 

1) How much did you make?

2) Give it to us.

[Joe Miner]

 

I've been wrong plenty of times about various things.

 

With that said, I think this is a tough one for the GOP, they over promised what they cannot deliver. The country with the media helps will incessantly focus on 3 things and only one of them is something that the GOP's ideas could help

 

A) Expanding coverage - GOP fails this test (from the perspective of more than half the country and the media)

B) Pre Existing coverage - GOP fails this test (from the perspective of more than half the country and the media)

C) Reducing Premiums - This is where the GOP could score well but even then there is a caveat, they would be reducing some coverage for this to happen and even then they still get bad media coverage. Not to mention that the Democrats are proposing Subsidies which lowers people's premiums

 

My hopes is that the GOP accepts the fact that the country wants expanded coverage and realizes that their only hope of instituting a long-term solution that could be viable would include a government partnership with the market driven concepts. There are lots of things that they could do that could work and achieve all of the above. If the system begins to work and coverage doesn't drop off all that badly from where it is along with more choice and lower premiums then there is a chance it could sustain itself.

 

The problem is that what the ACA does is something that people can actually see, feel and benefit from. When people get Medicaid, that is a direct benefit that constituent receives. When someone didn't have coverage and was denied to Pre Ex and now is able to get coverage, that is something they feel the impact of that benefit. When someone gets a big subsidy to help pay for their coverage and now are paying much less, again it is a direct benefit. It's hard to take that away once it has been given.

 

Many conservatives offer market driven ideas with more choice which lowers premiums for some middle class folks. But in comparison to what the Dem's offer with the subsidies, more people benefit than those that suffer the rising premiums. In regards to taxes and what it does to the National Debt, the majority of the taxes are levied on the wealthy, so people by in large don't have a problem with that. The debt, and the hidden taxes no one really seems to care anymore. For most people it is abstract concept where they don't see the impact of what these things do. Their perception is that they don't feel the impact of increasing debt and taxes, but if you take away their healthcare that was given to them, then that is something that they will noticeably feel.

 

There is no unicorn of a plan that can be put in place to fix this and hit all 3 of your points.

 

Even the best sounding plans/ideas come with a heaping helping of 'hopefully sustainable' talk. There is not a viable silver bullet for this mess.

 

In my humble opinion it's mostly because everyone is fixated on providing health insurance to all instead of actually addressing the cost of health care. Insurance, on it's face, is not a solution a rational thinking person would suggest for the entire health care debacle if it wasn't already the peg that was shoved in the health care hole.

 

Everyone is amazed that the GOP can't fix the square peg that was shoved into the round hole by the Dems. And the GOP was stupid enough to promise that they could.

 

If the GOP repeals Obamacare, they won't get a shot at replacing it, and this group shouldn't after how much incompetence they've shown. But maybe repealing is the only way to back the current mess up so that something better can take it's place?

 

And I agree with you that no matter what we're on the fast track for single payer. Although at this pace, it's guaranteed to be worse than anything we have now.

[Spurna]

Nobody voted for Trump seriously counting on a health plan.

 

But they did vote for him with his promise of lower taxes

 

If that doesn't happen...Congress swings blue next year

[DC Tom]

 

But they did vote for him with his promise of lower taxes

 

If that doesn't happen...Congress swings blue next year

 

Because the people who didn't get their expectations of lower taxes met will of course vote for the party of tax increases.

[Azalin]

 

I'm afraid Azalin, that is wishful thinking. Even though I do believe that Democrats should bear the brunt of the failures of the ACA moving forward, there are things that Trump is doing to undermine the law and cause premiums to go even higher such as threatening to take away the cost sharing provisions and uncertainty if there will even be a penalty for not having insurance. Both of these things from a substantive level are causing prices to go up even higher.

 

Plus, most people don't like Trump so everything he touches automatically is soured upon from the American public. He and Republicans said they'd fix it and the American public are expecting him to do just that.

 

 

Well, I wouldn't call it "wishful thinking", since I don't care who actually fixes this mess, and I don't trust anyone in Washington to do what's right anyway. I believe I've been consistent in maintaining my belief that incremental governmental involvement in healthcare and insurance has caused incremental problems to arise as a result, causing the predicament we're now stuck with.

 

I suppose some people will blame Trump and the republicans if nothing gets done, and I'm certain that they'll receive the blame from whatever results IF they actually manage to pass something.

 

Personally I believe that congressional republicans stand to lose much more than Trump does, but I imagine we'll see soon enough.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Azalin

[snafu]

There is no unicorn of a plan that can be put in place to fix this and hit all 3 of your points.

Even the best sounding plans/ideas come with a heaping helping of 'hopefully sustainable' talk. There is not a viable silver bullet for this mess.

In my humble opinion it's mostly because everyone is fixated on providing health insurance to all instead of actually addressing the cost of health care. Insurance, on it's face, is not a solution a rational thinking person would suggest for the entire health care debacle if it wasn't already the peg that was shoved in the health care hole.

Everyone is amazed that the GOP can't fix the square peg that was shoved into the round hole by the Dems. And the GOP was stupid enough to promise that they could.

If the GOP repeals Obamacare, they won't get a shot at replacing it, and this group shouldn't after how much incompetence they've shown. But maybe repealing is the only way to back the current mess up so that something better can take it's place?

And I agree with you that no matter what we're on the fast track for single payer. Although at this pace, it's guaranteed to be worse than anything we have now.

Everyone except Congress talks about reducing healthcare costs. It is the most rational of all questions. Why is it that they ignore this aspect of healthcare reform? The whole reform idea from both sides of the aisle is pure bull **** without reducing costs.

[DC Tom]

Everyone except Congress talks about reducing healthcare costs. It is the most rational of all questions. Why is it that they ignore this aspect of healthcare reform? The whole reform idea from both sides of the aisle is pure bull **** without reducing costs.

 

They ignore it because the majority of Americans are too stupid to know the difference between the cost of health care, the delivery of health care, the cost of health insurance, and the availability of health insurance.

[snafu]

They ignore it because the majority of Americans are too stupid to know the difference between the cost of health care, the delivery of health care, the cost of health insurance, and the availability of health insurance.

 

In the pockets of the lobbyists, taking advantage of constituents who work for a living and don't have time to enlighten themselves.

[Benjamin Franklin]

Leader of the free world on health care: "We will let it fail."

 

With leadership skills like that, I'm looking forward to the debt ceiling discussions in a month.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Benjamin Franklin

[grinreaper]

Leader of the free world on health care: "We will let it fail."

 

With leadership skills like that, I'm looking forward to the debt ceiling discussions in a month.

As usual, you're an idiot.

[Benjamin Franklin]

That's infringement. The acceptable noninfringing replacement is

 

Your a moran.

 

Moran.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Leader of the free world on health care: "We will let it fail."

 

 

I'd say that's the best possible plan atm.

[Magox]

I'd say that's the best possible plan atm.

 

The irony of this strategy is that all the places where people vote for Democrats the ACA is working ok. All the places where Trump wants to let it fail are the places that voted for him.

 

Sounds like a sound strategy.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

 

The irony of this strategy is that all the places where people vote for Democrats the ACA is working ok.

 

Only, it's really not. Anyone who argues that health insurance is more affordable in those areas is either delusional, or didn't have any coverage beforehand.

 

Again, there's nothing AFFORDABLE about the affordable care act.

 

It needs to die.

[GG]

In the pockets of the lobbyists, taking advantage of constituents who work for a living and don't have time to enlighten themselves.

 

Are the lobbyists the ones who go on the air every single day conflating the issues?

[TH3]

There is no unicorn of a plan that can be put in place to fix this and hit all 3 of your points.

 

Even the best sounding plans/ideas come with a heaping helping of 'hopefully sustainable' talk. There is not a viable silver bullet for this mess.

 

In my humble opinion it's mostly because everyone is fixated on providing health insurance to all instead of actually addressing the cost of health care. Insurance, on it's face, is not a solution a rational thinking person would suggest for the entire health care debacle if it wasn't already the peg that was shoved in the health care hole.

 

Everyone is amazed that the GOP can't fix the square peg that was shoved into the round hole by the Dems. And the GOP was stupid enough to promise that they could.

 

If the GOP repeals Obamacare, they won't get a shot at replacing it, and this group shouldn't after how much incompetence they've shown. But maybe repealing is the only way to back the current mess up so that something better can take it's place?

 

And I agree with you that no matter what we're on the fast track for single payer. Although at this pace, it's guaranteed to be worse than anything we have now.

 

Except that every other OECD country has a health care system that gets HC to its citizens for half the price with better results that what we do...proving it can be done...

 

Start with a clean sheet...lock the lobbyists out....design a system that acknowledges market forces, buyer behavior, actuarial principles on risk pool and aligns the payer/provider/consumer goals.....not that hard....except the first two parts...

[Magox]

 

Only, it's really not. Anyone who argues that health insurance is more affordable in those areas is either delusional, or didn't have any coverage beforehand.

 

Again, there's nothing AFFORDABLE about the affordable care act.

 

It needs to die.

 

It's not delusional its factually correct.

 

What is delusional is your opinion that healthcare is not more affordable in Urban America where the population centers are relative to Rural America.

 

The reason why rural america tends to have higher premiums are because their risk pools consist of an older and unhealthier population whereas in cities people tend to be younger.

 

Out of the 47 counties that have no Obamacare plans where the market collapsed in their areas, all but one voted for Trump.

 

There is no death spiral in the vast majority of the population centers in the US, where the health markets that are at highest risk of "failing" as Trump would have you ignorantly believe are where his voters reside. That's not an opinion that is a fact.

[Benjamin Franklin]

Failure of legislation that governs the single largest portion of our economy is the "best possible plan?"

 

That's not a plan.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Failure of legislation that governs the single largest portion of our economy is the "best possible plan?"

 

That's not a plan.

Got a better idea?

 

It's not delusional its factually correct.

 

What is delusional is your opinion that healthcare is not more affordable in Urban America where the population centers are relative to Rural America.

 

The reason why rural america tends to have higher premiums are because their risk pools consist of an older and unhealthier population whereas in cities people tend to be younger.

 

Out of the 47 counties that have no Obamacare plans where the market collapsed in their areas, all but one voted for Trump.

 

There is no death spiral in the vast majority of the population centers in the US, where the health markets that are at highest risk of "failing" as Trump would have you ignorantly believe are where his voters reside. That's not an opinion that is a fact.

 

Magox, I like you, I really do. But i think you're having a reading comprehension problem.

 

In no way, shape or form is health insurance LESS expensive now than it was pre-ACA, regardless of where you are in the USA.

 

That's factual.

[Benjamin Franklin]

We have to fix the broken pieces of healthcare painful negotiated step by step. It won't be easy or fun.

 

But let it fail is not governance. It's fiddling while Rome burns.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Benjamin Franklin

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

We have to fix the broken pieces of healthcare painful negotiated step by step. It won't be easy or fun.

 

But let it fail is not governance. It's fiddling while Rome burns.

 

What motivation do the morons in the congress have to act short of its failure?