Utah John Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I have always wondered how much more the Bills take in from playing a home game in Toronto, compared to what they'd get at a sold-out Ralph. Does anyone know? Probably the Bills figure the attraction isn't the extra money alone, but the growth of their market into southern Ontario. Still, if the Bills miss a playoff spot by one game after losing to Atlanta in Toronto, that's a lot of other money they're losing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 (edited) The Toronto series was $78 million over the 8 games I believe (3 preseason). I think that this was paid as a "rights fee" not just a ticket fee. A sol out RWS is probably $5M ish (just a guess. A sellout in the NBA is about $1M gate in smaller markets). So at worst the Toronto series is double it. If I am right in believing that it is a rights fee it does not get split across the league in the same manner as ticket revenue. Edited November 26, 2013 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 There will be as many Falcons fans at the game as Bills fans. They don't want us in Toronto as much as we don't want to play there and lose our homefield advantage. I don't care how much money the Bills make, the whole thing stinks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oman128 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 frankly I don't know why the NFL just doesn't buy out the Canadian Football League. And merge the two league together there's 8 teams so each conference gets 4 teams, and you expand the NFL brand to a whole nother country Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Mud Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 frankly I don't know why the NFL just doesn't buy out the Canadian Football League. And merge the two league together there's 8 teams so each conference gets 4 teams, and you expand the NFL brand to a whole nother country Have you ever seen the CFL?...totally different brand of football. Different rules, different field. They just had their 101st Grey Cup. They don't want American football, they are happy with their own brand. And their own legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Crossing the NFL with the CFL would be like slapping a Lambo emblem on a Pinto. You just don't do it. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 There will be as many Falcons fans at the game as Bills fans. They don't want us in Toronto as much as we don't want to play there and lose our homefield advantage. I don't care how much money the Bills make, the whole thing stinks I don't like it either but it is absolutely a necessary evil (as covered in the other thread). Unless the Bills have a new revenue generating stadium they need the Toronto series to "keep up with the Joneses" (see what I did there). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DollarBills Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 (edited) You also have to keep in mind that Rogers Centre has 20,000+ less seats than the Ralph and probably won't sell out this year. So while TO brings more in ticket prices, stadium size and a lack of enthusiasm lowers the potential profit. Edited November 26, 2013 by DollarBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djp14150 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I recall reading something when it first came out they would profit more than double what Ralph would bring on a per game rate. also by Buffalo establishing there, they can protect it if expansion or relocation was to happen and they put a team in Toronto. this is something San Diego is trying to do to LA in order to get some money should a team relocate there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 (edited) frankly I don't know why the NFL just doesn't buy out the Canadian Football League. And merge the two league together there's 8 teams so each conference gets 4 teams, and you expand the NFL brand to a whole nother country Totally different rules! Wider field, 55 yards long... 20 yard deep endzones and only 3 downs an offensive series. Much of the Canadian game would be lost... Let alone what the poster above said... More tradition and older game up in Canada than our brand of football. Edited November 26, 2013 by ExiledInIllinois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 (edited) I recall reading something when it first came out they would profit more than double what Ralph would bring on a per game rate. also by Buffalo establishing there, they can protect it if expansion or relocation was to happen and they put a team in Toronto. this is something San Diego is trying to do to LA in order to get some money should a team relocate there. Nice post. The marketing rights in Canada used to stop at the border and were run by "NFL Canada" and it was all league wide. The Bills used to fight this pretty hard because parts of Canada were well within their market. When they added the Toronto deal this changes and they were able to work into Southern Ontario at the team level. Edited November 26, 2013 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 You also have to keep in mind that Rogers Centre has 20,000+ less seats than the Ralph and probably won't sell out this year. So while TO brings more in ticket prices, stadium size and a lack of enthusiasm lowers the potential profit. That must make it really challenging for the guys paying us 78m to sell their own tickets. Ralph gets a flat rate on it whether sold out or empty doesn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 That must make it really challenging for the guys paying us 78m to sell their own tickets. Ralph gets a flat rate on it whether sold out or empty doesn't he? Yeah, it's a guaranteed number. It is a really good deal for the Bills (despite how bad it is to lose a home game). That market is what can potentially keep the Bills in WNY long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I think the thing that the people who are really enthusiastic about a Toronto NFL franchise don't realize is how hard it is to build a successful team that isn't an NHL property in Toronto. People will support the Leafs even when they are terrible (in a way, like we do with the Bills). The Blue Jays have had competitive teams and still have trouble filling 54,000 seats (which, granted, is a lot for baseball and its 81 home games). This is with a long history in the city including two championships. Guaranteeing sellouts at the prices they have been charging would be supremely difficult. Toronto is a super-cosmopolitan city with lots to do with your dollar/ loonie -- sort of a similar problem to that of LA. Planting a new franchise down in the city, even one with a regional history, is not the surefire success or moneymaker that it seems on the surface. Fans will only support a team there if it is a winner, and that's going to require a bunch of money on top of the investment made to purchase and relocate the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 A couple of things: The CFL is the strongest it has ever been right now and will continue to thrive. As for the Toronto series, speaking as a Canadian, it sucks. Yes, Toronto has a huge population, but largely it is becoming immigrant based and they have zero interest in football. I hate that the Bills lose that competitive advantage once a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jack Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 That must make it really challenging for the guys paying us 78m to sell their own tickets. Ralph gets a flat rate on it whether sold out or empty doesn't he? And they've dropped prices multiple times over the years. A $90 ticket the first year is now down to just under $60. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 And they've dropped prices multiple times over the years. A $90 ticket the first year is now down to just under $60. They are advertising for $48. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jack Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 They are advertising for $48. I added on the Ticketmaster fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tintonfallsbillsfan Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 The problem is Toronto is the 5th largest tv market in North America. That is vey appealing to the rest of the league . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 The problem is Toronto is the 5th largest tv market in North America. That is vey appealing to the rest of the league . The Bills are already seen in half of Canada every week now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 the original deal was $78 million, but there was certainly negotiation this round and I do not believe a dollar figure was ever publicly released this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Toronto is a non-starter. I suspect that it would completely alienate the major Western New York fan base (going through customs every week?) and just wouldn't be that popular in big Canadian city with hooks into major Canadian sports (NHL and CFL). If we moved (and I'm not all that convinced that moving is in the cards) there will have to be a major American city to move to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 (edited) Toronto is a non-starter. I suspect that it would completely alienate the major Western New York fan base (going through customs every week?) and just wouldn't be that popular in big Canadian city with hooks into major Canadian sports (NHL and CFL). If we moved (and I'm not all that convinced that moving is in the cards) there will have to be a major American city to move to. What if the stadium was right over the border, say in Niagara Falls? Half the Bills fans would stop going, mainly due to sobriety checks at the border, lol. But plenty would get a Nexus pass and just deal with it. Imagine if a new stadium were right near the Rainbow Bridge? People could park and tailgate on the US side and just walk or get shuttled over for the game. PTR Edited November 26, 2013 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 frankly I don't know why the NFL just doesn't buy out the Canadian Football League. And merge the two league together there's 8 teams so each conference gets 4 teams, and you expand the NFL brand to a whole nother country Briging a team into the NFL named the Redblacks could be problematic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsMagic1 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 If we moved to Toronto , within 5 years we would bre relocating to somehwere else in the USA. We have to fan base of all NFL franchises and wuld lose that, that is for sure. Longterm stupid move would be to go to Canada unless we play hockey..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 NFL in Canada let alone Toronto would fail horribly. People underestimate how big the CFL is here and would conflict with the Argos. Secondly, Toronto sport franchises are pretty much corporate with the exception of the Jays. anyone who has tried to buy tickets to a Leafs game understands this. The worst thing the NFL can do is to give Toronto a NFL team. CBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 The Bills are already seen in half of Canada every week now. More than that I believe. Bell Express (Canada's satellite TV provider) has the Sunday ticket. So theoretically the entire country country has the option to watch whatever NFL game they want, including the Bills, every week if they so choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 The problem is Toronto is the 5th largest tv market in North America. That is very appealing to the rest of the league . and it's ours, all ours, muahahaha. that ralph is a genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I look at this series as nothing more than ralphie or Russ being a step ahead of the NFL. While the nfl has selected various games to play abroad, in London or Mexico City, the TO series is no different than if San Diego, cardinals or Dallas did a series in Mexico (somewhere) over a number of years, or Seattle doing a deal with Vancouver. NFL is trying to build brand loyalty to the league, while Russ/Ralph are trying to build brand loyalty to the Bills. If they can successfully grow bills fanhood in Toronto even tepid fans just happy to tune in on Sundays, and buy an occasional ticket or two, Bills could stay put in WNY no matter who buys them for a very long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I look at this series as nothing more than ralphie or Russ being a step ahead of the NFL. While the nfl has selected various games to play abroad, in London or Mexico City, the TO series is no different than if San Diego, cardinals or Dallas did a series in Mexico (somewhere) over a number of years, or Seattle doing a deal with Vancouver. NFL is trying to build brand loyalty to the league, while Russ/Ralph are trying to build brand loyalty to the Bills. If they can successfully grow bills fanhood in Toronto even tepid fans just happy to tune in on Sundays, and buy an occasional ticket or two, Bills could stay put in WNY no matter who buys them for a very long time. additionally, ill take a hop skip and a jump to toronto over london or the other options on the horizon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I look at this series as nothing more than ralphie or Russ being a step ahead of the NFL. While the nfl has selected various games to play abroad, in London or Mexico City, the TO series is no different than if San Diego, cardinals or Dallas did a series in Mexico (somewhere) over a number of years, or Seattle doing a deal with Vancouver. NFL is trying to build brand loyalty to the league, while Russ/Ralph are trying to build brand loyalty to the Bills. If they can successfully grow bills fanhood in Toronto even tepid fans just happy to tune in on Sundays, and buy an occasional ticket or two, Bills could stay put in WNY no matter who buys them for a very long time. Take it one step further and they get a giant check to do it. They have managed to grow their fan base to hopefully secure them long term in WNY. You are 100% right that the Bills were very forward thinking in putting that together. It had to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 With everyone saying playing in Toronto is a disadvantage I would argue It shouldn't matter if they play in Buffalo, Toronto, New England or Mexico City. Its Football. Win the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keukasmallies Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 So the Bills in Toronto is comparable to the US involvement in [fill in the blank]. Only the people at the top see any benefit/reward and those who are the "hewers of wood and drawers of water" ultimately pay the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 So the Bills in Toronto is comparable to the US involvement in [fill in the blank]. Only the people at the top see any benefit/reward and those who are the "hewers of wood and drawers of water" ultimately pay the price. No, ultimately the Toronto deal helps secure the Bills in WNY long term. The extra revenue that has been generated keeps the Bills viable. Bottom line is that I would rather give a game or two to Toronto (which is only 2 hours away) than risk losing the team to (insert city here). The team is not going anywhere until that 7 year buyout clause kicks in. That is for sure. The sooner the team is sold the better. Until a new stadium is built the Toronto deal is necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 No, ultimately the Toronto deal helps secure the Bills in WNY long term. The extra revenue that has been generated keeps the Bills viable. Bottom line is that I would rather give a game or two to Toronto (which is only 2 hours away) than risk losing the team to (insert city here). The team is not going anywhere until that 7 year buyout clause kicks in. That is for sure. The sooner the team is sold the better. Until a new stadium is built the Toronto deal is necessary. I dont think the deal exists without Toronto's hopes to relocate the Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I dont think the deal exists without Toronto's hopes to relocate the Bills Maybe, because the deal was negotiated with Rogers Communications (rumored to be interested in the team). From the Bills standpoint they needed the $ and the ability to market to that region. My best guess is that the new stadium is built in NF (US) in about 5-7 years. This allows them to continue regionalize the franchise by being closer to Canada and not much further from Rochester. This team could not survive as a WNY team and they realized that and have successfully expanded their territory. I personally do not believe that the team is a threat to move to Toronto. I do believe the relationship could expand with another game going there (for as long as the Bills play at RWS). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I look at this series as nothing more than ralphie or Russ being a step ahead of the NFL. While the nfl has selected various games to play abroad, in London or Mexico City, the TO series is no different than if San Diego, cardinals or Dallas did a series in Mexico (somewhere) over a number of years, or Seattle doing a deal with Vancouver. NFL is trying to build brand loyalty to the league, while Russ/Ralph are trying to build brand loyalty to the Bills. If they can successfully grow bills fanhood in Toronto even tepid fans just happy to tune in on Sundays, and buy an occasional ticket or two, Bills could stay put in WNY no matter who buys them for a very long time. Maybe, because the deal was negotiated with Rogers Communications (rumored to be interested in the team). From the Bills standpoint they needed the $ and the ability to market to that region. My best guess is that the new stadium is built in NF (US) in about 5-7 years. This allows them to continue regionalize the franchise by being closer to Canada and not much further from Rochester. This team could not survive as a WNY team and they realized that and have successfully expanded their territory. I personally do not believe that the team is a threat to move to Toronto. I do believe the relationship could expand with another game going there (for as long as the Bills play at RWS). i agree with these comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 With everyone saying playing in Toronto is a disadvantage I would argue It shouldn't matter if they play in Buffalo, Toronto, New England or Mexico City. Its Football. Win the game In general I agree. But the Bills are going from the Ralph to a dome, and playing a warm weather team. That's giving up an advantage, and the Bills are not good enough to give up such advantages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I recall reading something when it first came out they would profit more than double what Ralph would bring on a per game rate. I recall reading this as well, most likely during the last series renewal. No link though. and it's ours, all ours, muahahaha. that ralph Brandon is a genius. Fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 At least the players wouldn't be complaining about the nightlife or women there... Toronto women are gorgeous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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