For those of you missing Levitre

[Mike B. in VA]

Anyone know what kind of compensatory pick we get for Levitre leaving? Or has that yet to be determined?

 

Probably a 4th, if I understand the size-of-deal thing, and provided the Bills don't sign any big free agents next spring.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

There has been an ongoing discussion on the board about whether rolled over money can be re-rolled into the following year. Sources have been cited(including the CBA document) that are worded in the negative.....but several respected analysts have been cited as having opinion that it can be re-rolled.

 

If it cannot be re-rolled, we lose $9.8M in rollover for 2014.

 

 

 

I agree with there being a good chance we won't have Byrd's contract on the 2014 books......though personally I hope we do.

 

In regards to the "usual roster turnover"....the players you mention have dead cap hits....Kolb & Smith $0.5M each....and we will still need players brought in to replace them if they are cut. Don't get me wrong, I believe we will be in a good position to take advantage of the good FA period that next off-season looks to be.

 

 

 

 

Had we placed the Fitz $7M onto this years cap we would be rolling over $7M less into the 2014 cap.......end result being exactly the same for the 2014 cap. Doing it this way enabled the Bills to have extra money available in 2013.....even though we didn't/haven't used it. Perhaps for PR reasons the Bill's FO should have just taken the hit this season to avoid the sort of unfounded negative public reaction shown in this thread.

 

The Bills rolled that money into next season so they would have to spend less actual $ next year to reach the salary floor..... the salary cap is a technicality to the Bills. Their cap is "cash to the cap", which is a convenient way of stacking cheese and having no guaranteed future player debt unpaid for.

 

The union and the owners collectively bargained this......and the owners want it too because they are sick of stone age run franchises riding the coattails of those that are taking risks and building equity in the league. That is even the basis for the Hard Knocks decision. They want the Bills to start holding up their end of the bargain and start playing to win as a franchise.

[thewildrabbit]

Fans are gonna whine, piss, B word and cry in all manners if their team loses games.

 

Look at the QB's Jake Locker and not Fitz. Not exactly scaring teams into NOT stacking the box to stop the Titans best threat in CJ2K.

 

Johnson 18th ranked this year 3.1 YPC avg

2012 8th ranked with 4.5 YPC avg

2011 14 ranked with 4.0 YPC avg

 

Now looking at the Buffalo Bills this season with CJ Spiller and his 4.0 YPC avg vs last season with 6.0 YPC avg Now take away one long 54 yard run and his YPC goes down to a measly 3.1 YPC.

 

Is there a problem with the Bills LG, you bet!! But there is also a bigger problem with the scheme and play calling from this year to last year.

 

So, is it Chris Johnson, the O line, or the scheme as the Titans have a new OC this year.

[Dibs]

The Bills rolled that money into next season so they would have to spend less actual $ next year to reach the salary floor..... the salary cap is a technicality to the Bills.

This is an interesting theory.....though I can't see any way that it could be proven to be true.

As it stands we have spent 92.7% of the cap.....while only being required to spend 88.8% this season.

 

Their cap is "cash to the cap", which is a convenient way of stacking cheese and having no guaranteed future player debt unpaid for.

This year we have spent 1.107 times the cap in cash(cash to cap) which is 12th highest in the NFL.

http://www.overthecap.com/nfl-cash-space.php?Year=2013

[atlbillsfan1975]

Levitre's greatest attribute was staying healthy. Next he was a good pass blocker and a decent run blocker. Levitre was not a big physical run blocking lineman. If the Titans felt like he was going to be a great run blocker then they did not watch film on him. He is a more 'wall off' your man. Levitre is not going to push interior Dlineman back. he does well at getting the the second level the LB's due to his agility.

 

To me Levitre got over paid. I am not mad a Levitre everyone of us would do the same thing if someone offered us more money then we where worth. The problem comes from teams not stcking together to keep the market fair. As long as you have owners who make unwise investments, they will continue to happen.

[The Big Cat]

Last year against Tennessee. Awful pick late. They took the ball and scored to take the lead, then Fitz's last drive sputtered.

 

And as I've already stated in this thread: he was the only reason we were in that game to begin with. It was a damn track meet, and we clawed back to take the lead you're referring to (it was our first of the game).

Edited October 10, 2013 by The Big Cat

[Malazan]

This is an interesting theory.....though I can't see any way that it could be proven to be true.

As it stands we have spent 92.7% of the cap.....while only being required to spend 88.8% this season.

 

 

This year we have spent 1.107 times the cap in cash(cash to cap) which is 12th highest in the NFL.

http://www.overtheca...e.php?Year=2013

 

Never let facts get in the way of a good crusade!

[BADOLBILZ]

This is an interesting theory.....though I can't see any way that it could be proven to be true.

As it stands we have spent 92.7% of the cap.....while only being required to spend 88.8% this season.

 

 

This year we have spent 1.107 times the cap in cash(cash to cap) which is 12th highest in the NFL.

http://www.overtheca...e.php?Year=2013

 

There is no other rational explanation for rolling that dead money into next year when there is plenty of space this year. As for next years cap, we do not even know what that figure is and probably won't until February of 2014. Could be the same, could be $10M higher, we do not know. Rolling that money into next year gives the Bills the option to play it cheap if that is what they want to do. That is all it does. Literally not one single other reason to play it that way.

 

As for the Bills spending 1.107 times the cap in cash..........that was exactly my point. They have spent to their cap and they really do not care about that $20M in unused cap space the league says they have.

 

That figure is what detractors of the Bills organization use as something of a barometer for how committed the Bills are to winning. That is reasonable. It is an unused asset and the Bills are an underperforming franchise.

 

But when apologists try to take salary cap figures and use it as fodder for their arguments they ignore one important thing.........the Bills do not care about literal salary cap figures. If you don't know that then you really aren't arguing from the Bills perspective whatsoever. But that is the apologist position.....that they know, understand and agree with how the organization chooses to manage the team.

[mannc]

The problem comes from teams not stcking together to keep the market fair.

I think that's called price fixing. Last I checked, it was a no-no.

[CountryCletus]

 

 

If he would have restructured, he would be our backup. If he was our backup, he would have led us to a win over Cleveland. I have no doubts about this.

 

Fitz never gave up games. Plenty of times he failed to bring the team back, but lest we forget he had plenty of games where he did lead them from behind, they fell short in a bunch of those, but that's not the point.

 

Can anyone here recall a game in which Fitz relinquished a lead late in the game?

 

NE game last year..

[Dibs]

There is no other rational explanation for rolling that dead money into next year when there is plenty of space this year.

Sure there is.....I said it before. As it makes no difference to the 2014 cap whether you have it the 2013 or 2014.....you may as well have it in the 2014 leaving extra monies in the 2013 year just in case you get a surprise opportunity to spend it on.

 

 

As for next years cap, we do not even know what that figure is and probably won't until February of 2014. Could be the same, could be $10M higher, we do not know.

It's been pretty widely reported that the cap won't dramatically increase till the 2015 season.

http://www.sportsbus...es/NFL-cap.aspx

http://espn.go.com/n...lary-cap-growth

 

 

As for the Bills spending 1.107 times the cap in cash..........that was exactly my point. They have spent to their cap and they really do not care about that $20M in unused cap space the league says they have.

Did you see the bit I wrote(and provided link for) where the Bills have been the 12th highest spenders this season?

They have spent well over "their cap"......and they have also covered well over the minimum cap amount.

 

I explained the ramifications of that $20M earlier. If you are unable to follow it....I can't do any more to help you.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Dibs

[3rdand12]

Levitre's greatest attribute was staying healthy. Next he was a good pass blocker and a decent run blocker. Levitre was not a big physical run blocking lineman. If the Titans felt like he was going to be a great run blocker then they did not watch film on him. He is a more 'wall off' your man. Levitre is not going to push interior Dlineman back. he does well at getting the the second level the LB's due to his agility.

 

To me Levitre got over paid. I am not mad a Levitre everyone of us would do the same thing if someone offered us more money then we where worth. The problem comes from teams not stcking together to keep the market fair. As long as you have owners who make unwise investments, they will continue to happen.

Andy did do a fine job in the run game getting to the next player, next level. Hell i have seen him block a safety or two !

He stayed healthy , made very few mistakes ( as far as i know ).

In retrospect it was a mistake. Very important error as i see things now.

In regard to his pay...

He is apparently worth more then we and the Bills FO thought because someone paid him that. Regardless of what has occured since he left the Bills.

By the way i was a NO to give him top dog money.

My opinion is generally based on how much the Bills have suffered without him and watching him play here.

and thats another story about Doug Whaley and friends

Edited October 10, 2013 by 3rdand12

[Bill from NYC]

 

Sure there is.....I said it before. As it makes no difference to the 2014 cap whether you have it the 2013 or 2014.....you may as well have it in the 2014 leaving extra monies in the 2013 year just in case you get a surprise opportunity to spend it on.

 

 

 

It's been pretty widely reported that the cap won't dramatically increase till the 2015 season.

http://www.sportsbus...es/NFL-cap.aspx

http://espn.go.com/n...lary-cap-growth

 

 

 

Did you see the bit I wrote(and provided link for) where the Bills have been the 12th highest spenders this season?

They have spent well over "their cap"......and they have also covered well over the minimum cap amount.

 

I explained the ramifications of that $20M earlier. If you are unable to follow it....I can't do any more to help you.

 

Dibs, not that you should give a f#@k, but I appreciate your posts. I don't necessarily agree with all of them but what is great about this board is reading posts that are well thought, and that posters have devoted time to. My Robert Hunter lyrics cost me 30-45 minutes per week lol.

 

The above said, I do NOT understand the position you are taking wrt the salary cap. I follow this as much as I can and have no idea where you are going. It quite possibly could be me.

 

Are you telling me that postponing the 7 million dollar cap hit of Fitz until 2014 will not lessen the Bills cap space next year? And let's toss in perhaps another 4 mil for Mark Anderson, shall we? Are you saying that this will not matter in 2014? If so, would you please explain?

 

Also, is time approaching when teams will be mandated to spend a certain percentage of the cap, no?

 

Here is what I see from at best, a semi-educated view.....

 

1) The Bills have 20 mil. in cap space and it sits in the owner's pocket, courtesy of a flim flam puppet, Russ Brandon.

 

2) I cling to the premise that the organization was given the choice of Byrd OR Levitre.

 

3) In an idiotic, Levy/Jaurnesque move, they chose to pursue Byrd in lieu of their best, most durable blocker. This with a rookie QB.

 

4) The most expensive players on an NFL Football Team are generally their QB, LT, and their best pass rusher. Denver is a great example of this. It works.

 

5) The Bills pay literal pennies for Glenn and Manuel. Mario costs a fortune, but the other 2 come SO cheap that there was/is a ton of money left for no reason, and I do mean NO REASON. They could have paid Levitre, easily.

 

6) The good news was the draft. They traded down and both second round picks are clearly solid players. Even if EJ doesn't develop, Woods and Kiko appear to be first round talents.

 

Again, please if you will explain how putting off 11 mil. in cap space (with 20 mil to spare) doesn't matter in 2014. Frankly, I don't believe it.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Bill from NYC

[Dibs]

Dibs, not that you should give a f#@k, but I appreciate your posts. I don't necessarily agree with all of them but what is great about this board is reading posts that are well thought, and that posters have devoted time to.

Thanks Bill, I think it safe to say that everybody likes being told that somebody appreciates their posts.

 

My Robert Hunter lyrics cost me 30-45 minutes per week lol.

 

 

The above said, I do NOT understand the position you are taking wrt the salary cap. I follow this as much as I can and have no idea where you are going. It quite possibly could be me.

 

Are you telling me that postponing the 7 million dollar cap hit of Fitz until 2014 will not lessen the Bills cap space next year? And let's toss in perhaps another 4 mil for Mark Anderson, shall we? Are you saying that this will not matter in 2014? If so, would you please explain?

 

Again, please if you will explain how putting off 11 mil. in cap space (with 20 mil to spare) doesn't matter in 2014. Frankly, I don't believe it.

 

I may be wrong in regards to speculating why the Bills are doing what they are doing, but in regards to this issue(the Fitz/Anderson hits being put into 2014 and not changing how it effects the 2014 cap), I am correct. I state that with confidence as it is not an opinion......it is mathematically correct.

 

I will try to explain the situation......which has, for me at least, become a bit more difficult to explain due to my lack of certainty on the re-rollover rule.

I will keep the extra complexities out......which means that there will be some caveats on some of the things I say, but won't effect things in relation to the specific 2013/2014 cap situation the Bills are in.

 

In times past, moving monies in this manner would certainly have effected the following year's cap situation. Moving a $10M debt into the next season would have (obviously) lowered the amount left under the cap. The big change to this was when NFL teams became able to roll over any leftover monies into the following year. Mathematically this means that spending it in year A, or putting it in year B would make no difference on year B's cap numbers.

 

I will endeavor to explain it here using some imaginary 'flat' numbers.

Let's say the 2013 cap and the 2014 cap are 100M.

....and the Bills have spent 80M in 2013.....and have committed to spend $80M in 2014.

With the rollover ability, this means that the remaining 20M of cap money from 2013 goes onto the 2014 cap.....effectively raising the 2014 cap to 120M giving us (120M minus 80M) 40M of cap room instead of 20M.

 

 

They also however have $10M in dead money which they can put into either the 2013 or the 2014 years.

 

If the 10M is put into the 2013 year:

Their 2013 spend rises to 90M.....leaving 10M left over.

That left over 10M is then rolled into the 2014 cap....bring the 2014 cap to be 110M.

As 80M has been spent in 2014......

This leaves (110M minus 80M) 30M of cap room in 2014.

 

If the 10M is put into the 2014 year:

Their 2013 spend remains at 80M.....leaving 20M left over.

That left over 20M is then rolled into the 2014 cap....bring the 2014 cap to be 120M.

80M has been spent in 2014.....plus the 10M in question......makes the 2014 spending to be 90M

This leaves (120M minus 90M) 30M of cap room in 2014.

 

As you can see, either way it is done, the cap room for 2014 is unaffected. 2014 ends up with the same amount of cap room in both scenarios.

 

 

Also, is time approaching when teams will be mandated to spend a certain percentage of the cap, no?

 

We are already there. This season teams are required to spend 88.8% of the base cap.....which rises to 90% in future seasons.

As it stands, we have spent 92.7% of the base cap this year.

 

We have also already committed to spend an estimated 88% of next years cap(while still needing to re-sign Byrd....and have players hitting FA that we may well want to re-sign in Carrington, Moats, Chandler, Legursky, Branch, Leonhard.....and Punter, FB, backup QB & Kicker......plus monies for the 2014 rookie class. On top of that we have Dareus and A.Williams who hit FA in 2015 whom we might want to lock up mid 2014.

 

 

1) The Bills have 20 mil. in cap space and it sits in the owner's pocket, courtesy of a flim flam puppet, Russ Brandon.

 

2) I cling to the premise that the organization was given the choice of Byrd OR Levitre.

 

4) The most expensive players on an NFL Football Team are generally their QB, LT, and their best pass rusher. Denver is a great example of this. It works.

 

5) The Bills pay literal pennies for Glenn and Manuel. Mario costs a fortune, but the other 2 come SO cheap that there was/is a ton of money left for no reason, and I do mean NO REASON. They could have paid Levitre, easily.

 

These 4 points all come under the same concept of cap management. What tends to be forgotten is that any long term contracts signed today effect the cap situations of tomorrow.

 

I tried to explain the ramifications of signing both Levitre and Byrd on the 2014 cap earlier in the thread.

I'll do so again here using the fictionally easier 100M cap example from above.

(For ease of calculation I will remove the 10M dead money factor).

 

As stated prior, our example has....

100M caps in both 2013 and 2014.....and...

We have spent 80M in both years leaving...

20M in cap space in 2013...and...

a rolled over cap space of 40M in 2014.

 

Signing a player(Levitre) to 8M/year effects the 2013 cap....

The 80M spent becomes 88M....leaving 12M for rollover.

It however greatly effects the 2014 cap....

The 80M spent in 2014 becomes 88M leaving 12M....plus the 12M rollover becomes 24M.

40M of cap space in 2014 becomes 24M.

 

That would be all well and good if the actual numbers were that high, but they aren't. Assuming the addition of 8M for Byrd(which was the situation at the time of the decision), we have already committed to 118M of the 125M projected cap for 2014.

Leaving 7M in cap room.

 

Allowing best case scenario of being able to roll over the full 18.4M(not 20M) of left over money from 2013 into 2014......that would be reduced by signing Levitre to 10.4M onto the 2014 cap.

Leaving 17.4M in cap room......except we still have to pay 8M in 2014 so this brings the number to 9.4M in cap room.

 

9.4M(likely a little more for various reasons) to....as I said earlier....re-sign Carrington, Moats, Chandler, Legursky, Branch, Leonhard.....and Punter, FB, backup QB & Kicker......plus monies for the 2014 rookie class. On top of that we have Dareus and A.Williams who hit FA in 2015 whom we might want to lock up mid 2014.

 

*note* If already rolled monies are not allowed to be re-rolled into future years, the 9.4M in cap space becomes 0.4M in cap debt.

 

We certainly could have signed both players but it would have left us in a tenuous place regarding future caps.

 

 

I totally agree with your QB/OT point.....but we don't have those big contracts on the roster. To me it comes down to the philosophy of "you don't overpay for players unless you are legitimately within sight of a championship."

 

We don't have the big QB or OT contracts on our roster.....but if we overspend now, the impact on future seasons might mean we have to gut the team(collecting more dead money) in order to sign them. Glenn hopefully will be good enough to be re-signed mid 2015 to a 10M+++/year deal. With luck in 2016 we re-sign EJ to a $20M+++/year deal.

 

Having to cut overpaid players who also land you with a sizable dead cap hit is not good cap management. We have made those mistakes in the recent past & I like to think the FO has learned from them and is poised to be able to take advantage of the massive overspending of many other teams in the next couple of off-seasons. We will see.

 

 

3) In an idiotic, Levy/Jaurnesque move, they chose to pursue Byrd in lieu of their best, most durable blocker. This with a rookie QB.

An arguable point but again a no-brainer IMO when considering the cap ramifications of having to Franchise Tag the player. Unfortunately the OG tag money was significantly more in terms of value for money than the S tag money. There is also the point of the fact that the S has been to two probowls and considered generally top 5 at his position.

 

 

6) The good news was the draft. They traded down and both second round picks are clearly solid players. Even if EJ doesn't develop, Woods and Kiko appear to be first round talents.

Agreed.....but this too highlights the importance of long term cap management. I'm sure that none of us want the Bills to be in a situation where we are stretched with regards to the cap when we are wanting to re-sign/extend these players in 3+ years time. Overpaying players now....and running the cap to the max each year causes greater problems down the road when wanting to sign legitimate star players.

 

 

I could be wrong in my assessment that the Bills are making these decisions because they have a solid cap plan for the future. They may simply be stingy and not want to spend over a certain level.....and it's just coincidence that it makes good long term cap sense. I personally don't think that is the case as the Mario, Freddie, SJ, Woods etc contracts seem to show that they are willing to spend money when they see it fits......but I guess the next 2-5 years will prove things one way or the other.

[Wayne Cubed]

These 4 points all come under the same concept of cap management. What tends to be forgotten is that any long term contracts signed today effect the cap situations of tomorrow.

 

I tried to explain the ramifications of signing both Levitre and Byrd on the 2014 cap earlier in the thread.

I'll do so again here using the fictionally easier 100M cap example from above.

(For ease of calculation I will remove the 10M dead money factor).

 

As stated prior, our example has....

100M caps in both 2013 and 2014.....and...

We have spent 80M in both years leaving...

20M in cap space in 2013...and...

a rolled over cap space of 40M in 2014.

 

Signing a player(Levitre) to 8M/year effects the 2013 cap....

The 80M spent becomes 88M....leaving 12M for rollover.

It however greatly effects the 2014 cap....

The 80M spent in 2014 becomes 88M leaving 12M....plus the 12M rollover becomes 24M.

40M of cap space in 2014 becomes 24M.

 

That would be all well and good if the actual numbers were that high, but they aren't. Assuming the addition of 8M for Byrd(which was the situation at the time of the decision), we have already committed to 118M of the 125M projected cap for 2014.

Leaving 7M in cap room.

 

Allowing best case scenario of being able to roll over the full 18.4M(not 20M) of left over money from 2013 into 2014......that would be reduced by signing Levitre to 10.4M onto the 2014 cap.

Leaving 17.4M in cap room......except we still have to pay 8M in 2014 so this brings the number to 9.4M in cap room.

 

9.4M(likely a little more for various reasons) to....as I said earlier....re-sign Carrington, Moats, Chandler, Legursky, Branch, Leonhard.....and Punter, FB, backup QB & Kicker......plus monies for the 2014 rookie class. On top of that we have Dareus and A.Williams who hit FA in 2015 whom we might want to lock up mid 2014.

 

*note* If already rolled monies are not allowed to be re-rolled into future years, the 9.4M in cap space becomes 0.4M in cap debt.

 

We certainly could have signed both players but it would have left us in a tenuous place regarding future caps.

 

 

I totally agree with your QB/OT point.....but we don't have those big contracts on the roster. To me it comes down to the philosophy of "you don't overpay for players unless you are legitimately within sight of a championship."

 

We don't have the big QB or OT contracts on our roster.....but if we overspend now, the impact on future seasons might mean we have to gut the team(collecting more dead money) in order to sign them. Glenn hopefully will be good enough to be re-signed mid 2015 to a 10M+++/year deal. With luck in 2016 we re-sign EJ to a $20M+++/year deal.

 

 

Honestly, best explanation in this thread Dibs.

 

And it makes sense, if you sign Levitre to the deal he got in Tennessee(which the Bills, IMO, would have had to sign him for more to keep him here) you would severly jepordize the franchises ability to sign future talent. To franchise Byrd and then attempt to sign him, would work out cheaper. IMO, If Glenn continues being as good as he has been, that money for Levitre should be spent on him. Then the Bills would have locked up a franchise Center in Woods and a franchise LT in Glenn. The rest of the positions will have to be filled, via the draft and/or cheaper talent.

 

In today's NFL it's just not possible to spend big on every single one of a teams OL.

[BADOLBILZ]

Sure there is.....I said it before. As it makes no difference to the 2014 cap whether you have it the 2013 or 2014.....you may as well have it in the 2014 leaving extra monies in the 2013 year just in case you get a surprise opportunity to spend it on.

 

 

 

It's been pretty widely reported that the cap won't dramatically increase till the 2015 season.

http://www.sportsbus...es/NFL-cap.aspx

http://espn.go.com/n...lary-cap-growth

 

 

 

Did you see the bit I wrote(and provided link for) where the Bills have been the 12th highest spenders this season?

They have spent well over "their cap"......and they have also covered well over the minimum cap amount.

 

I explained the ramifications of that $20M earlier. If you are unable to follow it....I can't do any more to help you.

 

OHHHHHH.......that $20 million in cap space is there just in case say......Andrew Luck gets released and you need to come up with enough cap room to issue a 10 year $300M contract with $190M signing bonus.

 

Now I follow you.

 

In that event.....$10M in available cap room would leave you only enough to do another Mario Williams type contract and maybe another Leodis contract or something like that and still have enough room in case of injuries.

 

That isn't going to buy you much off the in-season waiver wire now is it?

 

Or what if the Bills want to extend every single player on the team that is on their first contract for an additional 5 years and cut off Eugene Parker at the pass?

 

Great point about the value of saving that extra $7M in space this year.

 

Plausible.

 

I guess I just don't understand the salary cap like you. The Bills have clearly spent 10% over cash to the cap.....perhaps risking a self-imposed draft pick loss..... so that must mean that they have changed their publicly stated "cash to the cap" ways and are now conforming with league standards and have every intention of either using all $20M of that cap space or rolling it over in it's entirety into 2014.

 

That's great news because fans aren't getting discouraged at all, yet. They are still showing up in droves, even for early season "good weather" games but that "cash to the cap" thing was risking consumer confidence, IMO.

 

If only I had some background with Bills caponomics. I must not have been here in the late 1990's discussing the ramifications of outrageous spending on guys like Sam Rogers and Ken Irvin and the potential long term damage the teams cap mismanagement was causing.

 

I wasn't here when Tom Donahoe gave John Holecek a bonus to renegotiate his contract in April and then released him in May, inflicting a million dollar wound at a time when the team was up against the cap and running a cheese grader across the roster.

 

I really have no perspective or understanding of Bills history in the free agent/salary cap era.....not like you. I guess I can't understand amortization and other fancy terms like that, it's just so complicated.

[thebandit27]

The salary cap discussion has been hashed out quite clearly here. Yes, the team currently has $19M in cap room. No, they will not have all of that room next season. Yes, there are very real salary cap ramifications of making a good-but-not-elite guard the highest paid offensive player on your team.

 

It really is that simple. The problem isn't letting Levitre go, it's that his replacement isn't very good. This is a problem that can be fixed with an investment of a 3rd round pick or a $2M annual salary next off-season.

[Nanker]

[C.Biscuit97]

Dibs won this thread. Nice work and research. Apperciate it very much.

 

We have to be the only fan board that has massive threads on LGs and punters.

[Gugny]

Dibs won this thread. Nice work and research. Apperciate it very much.

 

We have to be the only fan board that has massive threads on LGs and punters.

In fairness, we're fans of the only franchise that would have a press conference to introduce Vince Young (let alone sign him).

Edited October 11, 2013 by Gugny

[jester43]

All of them. LG is single handedly holding back this team.

 

Face it, Levitre isn't worth what he got paid. Not many guards are. The Titans signed him and drafted a G with a top 10 (rarely happens) and still struggle to run the ball.

 

Again, the problem isn't that the Bills let AL walk. It's that Brown isn't good enough. But LG is still one of the most replaceable positions in football. And you're delusional if you think our record is any different if we had LEvitre.

Yeah and they could have replaced him with CHAD EFFING RINEHART for about 1 million a year! he wasn't Joe D but he's a lot better than the garbage we've seen this year. at LG. think he could have made the switch.

 

We had a decent OL last year for the first time in FOREVER and now we're back where we started. Is there any doubt that Spillers problems and EJs sacks aren't a direct result of hte bills getting complacent?

[C.Biscuit97]

Yeah and they could have replaced him with CHAD EFFING RINEHART for about 1 million a year! he wasn't Joe D but he's a lot better than the garbage we've seen this year. at LG. think he could have made the switch.

 

We had a decent OL last year for the first time in FOREVER and now we're back where we started. Is there any doubt that Spillers problems and EJs sacks aren't a direct result of hte bills getting complacent?

 

They are 3rd in the NFL is rushing and given up 15 sacks (8 out which happened in one road game against a good D). Look, Brown is not good and Levitre is a pretty good guard. But how much better is it going to get for $8 million/ year for a LG?

 

Again, people don't look into the future. Guys are going to be up for new deals (Dareus, Spiller, Gilmore, etc.). You know how you lock good players up early? Don't get into salary cap jail by locking up LGs to big money deals.

 

Pick the right guard in the draft or free agency (Matt Slauson would have been a good cheap pick up).

[Beerball]

 

Drop the personal attacks. They are coming from all directions and they need to end now. Thanks.

[Nitro]

Levitre wanted more money that the Bills thought he was worth. They, like other teams, place a value on different positions so they can manage the cap. I think that is why they are having the dispute with Byrd on his contract. Levitre is playing adequately in Tennessee but not to the level he is being paid. Bills could have and should have done better in addressing the OG issue. I will assume that they will address it in next Springs draft.

[opfball91]

It was the opposite of us signing Derrick Dockery. A solid guard but nothing more (if not less than that for Dockery). I loved Levitre and would have loved him for 4-5mil a year but nothing to what he got paid in Tennessee.

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

Living here in Banjo land, I get to listen to sports talk every morning about teams I could care less about in all honesty, but it's better than nothing, so I tune in, really just to see what other sports radio shows sound like, compared to ours. So, short story long, the big topic as of late is how Chris Johnson has been struggling, and not able to break runs on the inside this year, and guess whose name came up in conversation? nope.... guess again... yes, they were talking about Andy Levitre, and they were not raving about the guy in any way. In fact, they feel like they may have overpaid for what is being perceived as middling talent. They were concerned about his run blocking mostly, and other names along the offensive line as well, it wasn't a Levitre bash fest, but I was surprised to hear that he wasn't the second coming of Jesus Christ in guard form. From all the comments around here, you's think we let the "all mighty" walk(on water to tennessee at that), and bashed the front office for doing so.

 

Maybe.... Juuuuuust maybe.... our front office was very smart in not over paying for a guard, even if we didn't have a better alternative to replace him. sometimes you have to let a guy walk, especially one who isn't blowing it up on his new team.

 

 

Take this for what it's worth, just thought it would be nice to show a different side to what was perceived as a mistake in not keeping a guy.

The problem is ou replacement is "Turnstyle" Brown. Have you ever watched him play?????That is why weraelly miss levire..., and the fact that we are over 20 mill below the cap...

[Homey D. Clown]

In fairness, we're fans of the only franchise that would have a press conference to introduce Vince Young (let alone sign him).

 

I may just put this in my signature... so funny

[jester43]

They are 3rd in the NFL is rushing and given up 15 sacks (8 out which happened in one road game against a good D). Look, Brown is not good and Levitre is a pretty good guard. But how much better is it going to get for $8 million/ year for a LG?

 

you cannot watch these games and tell me the running game hasn't taken a step backward. i know, it's the OCs fault

[BADOLBILZ]

you cannot watch these games and tell me the running game hasn't taken a step backward. i know, it's the OCs fault

 

Not only has it taken a step back in per snap productivity......who wouldn't have wanted to see if the line would actually IMPROVE with another year together. Detractors want to isolate Levitre and his contract.....but it was his turn to get paid. The bulk of the upcoming big contracts on this roster are years down the road. Paying Levitre now made sense, but if not, don't leave yourself in such a bind at the position that you are thinking about drafting another guard early to repair the gaping hole in your line. I mean is Mario Williams worth his money? Not stand alone.........but without him this team is probably 0-5. This season has gone the way of the pass rush.....and he has been most of it. For that matter, the Bills lost to the Jets because they couldn't contain the Jets pass rush. And Brown was most of the problem. So yeah, I think having Levitre here would have made a difference in the W-L record of this team. I don't know if anyone could have helped Tuel in Cleveland but the Patriot and Jets games were very winnable and Colin Brown just killed them in both games. Wait until this team gets out on the road for a stretch.

[thebandit27]

Not only has it taken a step back in per snap productivity......who wouldn't have wanted to see if the line would actually IMPROVE with another year together. Detractors want to isolate Levitre and his contract.....but it was his turn to get paid. The bulk of the upcoming big contracts on this roster are years down the road. Paying Levitre now made sense, but if not, don't leave yourself in such a bind at the position that you are thinking about drafting another guard early to repair the gaping hole in your line. I mean is Mario Williams worth his money? Not stand alone.........but without him this team is probably 0-5. This season has gone the way of the pass rush.....and he has been most of it. For that matter, the Bills lost to the Jets because they couldn't contain the Jets pass rush. And Brown was most of the problem. So yeah, I think having Levitre here would have made a difference in the W-L record of this team. I don't know if anyone could have helped Tuel in Cleveland but the Patriot and Jets games were very winnable and Colin Brown just killed them in both games. Wait until this team gets out on the road for a stretch.

 

I'm not saying that Brown has played well, as anyone can tell that he hasn't.

 

Pinning the losses to the Pats and Jets on Brown is going way too far IMO. Unless he was going to cover Danny Amendola on that last drive, or replace Justin Rodgers in the defensive backfield, you're singling out the wrong guy.

 

Brown's played poorly; he hasn't been the cause of a single loss this year. And for whatever it's worth, the team's success running left (to Brown's side) is among the best in the NFL in several measurable statistics:

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=RUSHING_LEFT_POWER&tabSeq=2&season=2013&role=TM&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&qualified=false

Edited October 11, 2013 by thebandit27

[atlbillsfan1975]

I think that's called price fixing. Last I checked, it was a no-no.

It is a no-no to collude with other teams or owners. You are correct. But i think we started to witness it this past offseason to a degree. i have a feeling it will happen more and more. And it not really collusion but more the fact that teams are sick of getting burnt by giving big contracts to one hit wonders.

[Orton's Arm]

 

 

Not only has it taken a step back in per snap productivity......who wouldn't have wanted to see if the line would actually IMPROVE with another year together. Detractors want to isolate Levitre and his contract.....but it was his turn to get paid. The bulk of the upcoming big contracts on this roster are years down the road. Paying Levitre now made sense, but if not, don't leave yourself in such a bind at the position that you are thinking about drafting another guard early to repair the gaping hole in your line. I mean is Mario Williams worth his money? Not stand alone.........but without him this team is probably 0-5. This season has gone the way of the pass rush.....and he has been most of it. For that matter, the Bills lost to the Jets because they couldn't contain the Jets pass rush. And Brown was most of the problem. So yeah, I think having Levitre here would have made a difference in the W-L record of this team. I don't know if anyone could have helped Tuel in Cleveland but the Patriot and Jets games were very winnable and Colin Brown just killed them in both games. Wait until this team gets out on the road for a stretch.

 

The Bills had at least three options at LG:

1) Re-sign Levitre

2) Re-sign Reinhardt

3) Sign Colin Brown

 

The problem with option 1 is that the Titans greatly overpaid for what Levitre is actually producing. Had the Bills overpaid Levitre by an even greater margin, that would have driven up the cost of extending Wood and Glenn. Bumping up near the salary cap isn't a great idea for a team with below-average overall talent. Especially not for a team whose starting QB is on his rookie contract.

 

The problems with option 3) are obvious; and you touched on some of them in your post. As for the Cleveland game: had Tuel been given any pass protection at all, he might have produced something.

 

Reinhardt would have given the Bills a credible starter at LG at a very fair price. Not as good as Levitre, perhaps, but good enough to get us by for now. Instead of being forced to draft a LG in 2014, the Bills could have chosen to wait until 2015 or 2016; if they liked the 2015 or 2016 LG prospects better.

[John from Riverside]

you cannot watch these games and tell me the running game hasn't taken a step backward. i know, it's the OCs fault

 

Jester I really dont think its that simple......

 

- Yes....the bills should have had a backup plan if they lost Levitre if Brown was this bad (by the way...I think that backup plan was Legursky and then he got hurt.....well see now that he is back)

 

- Hackett gets so stubburn with his lack of creativity on runs.....its frustrating

 

- We are covering up a rookie QB (and now a practice squad vet) with our running game....teams know were gonna run it.......its up to the QB to hit the intermediate pass to back them off

 

- EVERY screen (all 2 of them) that we have ran this year has went for positive yardage

 

I am willing to wait and see if Legursky is the player Marrone thought he was going to be.....but I do miss Levitre...but not at 8 million dollars

 

The Bills had at least three options at LG:

1) Re-sign Levitre

2) Re-sign Reinhardt

3) Sign Colin Brown

 

The problem with option 1 is that the Titans greatly overpaid for what Levitre is actually producing. Had the Bills overpaid Levitre by an even greater margin, that would have driven up the cost of extending Wood and Glenn. Bumping up near the salary cap isn't a great idea for a team with below-average overall talent. Especially not for a team whose starting QB is on his rookie contract.

 

The problems with option 3) are obvious; and you touched on some of them in your post. As for the Cleveland game: had Tuel been given any pass protection at all, he might have produced something.

 

Reinhardt would have given the Bills a credible starter at LG at a very fair price. Not as good as Levitre, perhaps, but good enough to get us by for now. Instead of being forced to draft a LG in 2014, the Bills could have chosen to wait until 2015 or 2016; if they liked the 2015 or 2016 LG prospects better.

 

I thought I had heard a lot of reports that Reinhardt was struggling this year

[chris heff]

 

 

The Bills had at least three options at LG:

1) Re-sign Levitre

2) Re-sign Reinhardt

3) Sign Colin Brown

 

The problem with option 1 is that the Titans greatly overpaid for what Levitre is actually producing. Had the Bills overpaid Levitre by an even greater margin, that would have driven up the cost of extending Wood and Glenn. Bumping up near the salary cap isn't a great idea for a team with below-average overall talent. Especially not for a team whose starting QB is on his rookie contract.

 

The problems with option 3) are obvious; and you touched on some of them in your post. As for the Cleveland game: had Tuel been given any pass protection at all, he might have produced something.

 

Reinhardt would have given the Bills a credible starter at LG at a very fair price. Not as good as Levitre, perhaps, but good enough to get us by for now. Instead of being forced to draft a LG in 2014, the Bills could have chosen to wait until 2015 or 2016; if they liked the 2015 or 2016 LG prospects better.

Agree, it appears that they really did not have a plan. Colin Brown could not have been the plan.

[BADOLBILZ]

The Bills had at least three options at LG:

1) Re-sign Levitre

2) Re-sign Reinhardt

3) Sign Colin Brown

 

The problem with option 1 is that the Titans greatly overpaid for what Levitre is actually producing. Had the Bills overpaid Levitre by an even greater margin, that would have driven up the cost of extending Wood and Glenn. Bumping up near the salary cap isn't a great idea for a team with below-average overall talent. Especially not for a team whose starting QB is on his rookie contract.

 

The problems with option 3) are obvious; and you touched on some of them in your post. As for the Cleveland game: had Tuel been given any pass protection at all, he might have produced something.

 

Reinhardt would have given the Bills a credible starter at LG at a very fair price. Not as good as Levitre, perhaps, but good enough to get us by for now. Instead of being forced to draft a LG in 2014, the Bills could have chosen to wait until 2015 or 2016; if they liked the 2015 or 2016 LG prospects better.

 

For a lot of reasons, keeping Levitre was still the best option of the 3. They could have structured his contract and worst case he could be cut in a couple years and they would just have to eat $5M in cap room or the equivalent. I mean, Levitre's salary for this year is $2.5M and he got a $10.5M bonus. They had plenty of cap space to give him a higher first year salary and a lower bonus number. This is not cap breaking money by any means. As concerned as people are with overpaying Levitre I am surprised these same people didn't burn the Ralph to the ground when they cut Mark Anderson this summer and ate his unamortized bonus $.

 

I get that people think......"hey, the Steelers or Patriots wouldn't have 3 OL on their team making $4M or more"........but the Bills aren't those teams. I don't get that in the same thread a numbskull can say signing Levitre would have been a bad thing but now the team should use a first round pick on a guard next year. That's idiotic. The distinction between the Bills and good organizations with regard to decisions like this is that the Bills have a culture of losing to break and those teams have long ridden the momentum of winning.....a force that allows you a much larger margin for error with regard to personnel.

 

The best way to break a culture of losing is to make the best of the assets you have at your disposal and do it quickly before the new coach and his staff get the stink of losing on them. This team is not in a re-build. They have a veteran defense with a lot of former 1st and 2nd round picks in the lineup......a veteran OL.......a veteran #1 WR and veteran starting TE and 26 and 32 year old running backs. Yeah, they SHOULD be better courtesy of all the benefits parity provides losing teams in terms of draft pick positioning etc. and yes they have a young QB......but that hasn't stopped them from being competitive and even just a little more help in free agency could have this team at 4-1 or 5-0. Example: this is a team that has pounded now 5-0 teams like Denver and KC teams in recent years that have mostly the same rosters now that they had when the Bills were beating them. This has been going on with regularity since the year Jauron beat GB and Jacksonville at home and then those two teams made their conference championships the following season while the Bills were repeating their 7-9 record. If there is no urgency in this league "re-builds" never get off the ground. The Bills are terrible about this. Alright......so you pass on Levitre......then sign another starting quality OG and a couple other of the vast amount of bargain free agents that were on the market and your new head coach isn't looking like another guy who just can't seem to turn the Bills fortunes around.

Edited October 12, 2013 by BADOLBEELZ

[ALF]

I would have extended Levitre and Rhinehart before there contracts ended. Kept OL coach Joe D' . If we find a cheaper player as good as Levitre thats when to trade him. EJ and CJ are in trouble without a good LG. Hairston out is also a negative.

[Orton's Arm]

 

 

For a lot of reasons, keeping Levitre was still the best option of the 3. They could have structured his contract and worst case he could be cut in a couple years and they would just have to eat $5M in cap room or the equivalent. I mean, Levitre's salary for this year is $2.5M and he got a $10.5M bonus. They had plenty of cap space to give him a higher first year salary and a lower bonus number. This is not cap breaking money by any means. As concerned as people are with overpaying Levitre I am surprised these same people didn't burn the Ralph to the ground when they cut Mark Anderson this summer and ate his unamortized bonus $.

 

I get that people think......"hey, the Steelers or Patriots wouldn't have 3 OL on their team making $4M or more"........but the Bills aren't those teams. I don't get that in the same thread a numbskull can say signing Levitre would have been a bad thing but now the team should use a first round pick on a guard next year. That's idiotic. The distinction between the Bills and good organizations with regard to decisions like this is that the Bills have a culture of losing to break and those teams have long ridden the momentum of winning.....a force that allows you a much larger margin for error with regard to personnel.

 

The best way to break a culture of losing is to make the best of the assets you have at your disposal and do it quickly before the new coach and his staff get the stink of losing on them. This team is not in a re-build. They have a veteran defense with a lot of former 1st and 2nd round picks in the lineup......a veteran OL.......a veteran #1 WR and veteran starting TE and 26 and 32 year old running backs. Yeah, they SHOULD be better courtesy of all the benefits parity provides losing teams in terms of draft pick positioning etc. and yes they have a young QB......but that hasn't stopped them from being competitive and even just a little more help in free agency could have this team at 4-1 or 5-0. Example: this is a team that has pounded now 5-0 teams like Denver and KC teams in recent years that have mostly the same rosters now that they had when the Bills were beating them. This has been going on with regularity since the year Jauron beat GB and Jacksonville at home and then those two teams made their conference championships the following season while the Bills were repeating their 7-9 record. If there is no urgency in this league "re-builds" never get off the ground. The Bills are terrible about this. Alright......so you pass on Levitre......then sign another starting quality OG and a couple other of the vast amount of bargain free agents that were on the market and your new head coach isn't looking like another guy who just can't seem to turn the Bills fortunes around.

 

> For a lot of reasons, keeping Levitre was still the best option of the 3.

 

I'll grant that the Bills had room under the salary cap to afford to greatly overpay for Levitre. Maybe even greatly overpay for Glenn and Wood as well. I'll also grant your point that Levitre's contract could have been structured in a way to get a lot of the cap hit out of the way now (when we have plenty of cap space that's being wasted) rather than later (when the cap might be more of an issue).

 

> If there is no urgency in this league "re-builds" never get off the ground.

 

Thus far, Manuel has played like a bottom-10 QB. I realize he's a rookie, and that rookie QBs often improve. But the single most important part of any rebuild effort is to obtain a top-10 QB. Without that, there is very little chance of winning a Super Bowl.

 

> Example: this is a team that has pounded now 5-0 teams like Denver and KC teams in recent years

 

| The hottest horse will oft be cool,

| The dullest will show fire;

| The friar will often play the fool,

| The fool will play the friar.

 

- (Old Song; quoted in Chapter XXVI of Ivanhoe)

 

> Alright......so you pass on Levitre......then sign another starting quality OG and a couple other

> of the vast amount of bargain free agents that were on the market and your new head coach isn't

> looking like another guy who just can't seem to turn the Bills fortunes around.

 

The Bills need to focus less on looking good or obtaining others' approval; and focus more on discipline. Overpaying three out of five OL--including absurdly overpaying for your LG--does not necessarily constitute a disciplined approach to the salary cap. On the other hand, letting your best draft picks go first-contract-and-out is not disciplined either. The correct solution to the Levitre problem would have been to extend him before his rookie contract ended. Once he hit free agency--and once the Titans offered to absurdly overpay him--the Bills were faced with a no-win situation.

 

A star player at LG doesn't benefit you the way you'd benefit from a star QB, LT, RDE, or WR. Not that Levitre is a star LG; even if he's being paid like one. You still need a solid player at LG; but you can get that in the third round. He probably wouldn't be much of a drop-off from Levitre.

 

I don't like blowing a third round pick any more than you do. On the other hand, if the Bills greatly overpay for their talent, then that sets up a situation where they'd bump their head on the salary cap long before reaching a Super Bowl level of talent.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Edwards' Arm

[ColdBlueNorth]

Levitre is a good serviceable guard who would be an upgrade over our current left guard prospects, but not at elite guard money.

 

C'mon folks, Marrone was a journeyman lineman in the NFL and you don't think he had a say in the matter? Levitre had a chance to cash in his chips for a desparate team willing to pay top dollar for reliable if unspectacular talent.

 

If Brown or the other scrub cannot elevate their play, they will find a serviceable guard next year - there is no way we were going all the way to the promised land in one year's worth of rebuilding and the tools they did put in the toolbox via the draft have looked pretty good so far - no matter what those expert draft pundits thought of the moves.

[NoName]

I don't know if this will change your opinion at all; I just like to point out that the team won't have all that cap space forever, and decisions need to be made. They are currently paying Urbik $4M/year, and just extended Eric Wood for $6.5M/year. In another year and a half, they'll need to re-sign Cordy Glenn to LT money ($9M/year minimum). You can't expect to keep every free agent, and if you intend to be a good all-around team, paying $28M/year to 4 players on the OL isn't practical. Good teams don't do that.

 

You won't find a great team paying top 10 money to more than 1 or 2 offensive linemen. According to Spotrac, here's a list of teams paying top dollar to more than 1 (with average annual salary in parenthesis):

 

Jets - Mangold (2) and Ferguson (7)

Broncos - Clady (1) and Vasquez (10)

Panthers - Gross (6) and Kalil (1)

Rams - Long (8) and Wells (4)

Seahawks - Okung (9) and Unger (6)

TB - Nicks (1), Joseph (5), and Zuttah (10)

NO - Evans (3) and Grubbs (7)

 

That's only 7 teams in the 32-team league that are paying more than 1 OL top 10 money. When Wood's contract kicks in next year, he'll be the 4th-highest paid C in the league in terms of average salary, so saving the big money for Glenn, instead of Levitre, was a wise move IMO.

Now that's an excellent post. I wish some the bills writers did this type of analysis.

[hondo in seattle]

and yet Andy proved so valuable in Buffalo, that the BIlls are still scrambling in their search to replace him.

 

jw

 

Levitre is good; certainly much better than his replacement. But, at the price, I don't mind the FO letting him. I just wish they found somebody better than Brown to replace him with.