For those of you missing Levitre

[Joe W]

Wison is buying a gold plated casket with the money he's saved. He's planning on taking the $900 M profit that he makes on the team with him tp the after-life.

[BADOLBILZ]

Pocket the money. Pocket the money? What if there isn't any money there to pocket? The CAP is the upper limit of what they can spend. It's not how much cash is in the drawer. The Bills have some of the cheapest fans in the NFL and its reflected in the prices they are willing to pay for their tickets.

 

In the past decade the Bills have finished in the financial playoffs in terms of net income versus other NFL teams every season. Some seasons to the tune of $30M in net income. I am not sure what you think happens to that accumulated profit but it isn't just about what you made last year. The money was made and the overhead on the business is perhaps the lowest in the league. Yeah, Bills tickets are cheap......but that hasn't prevented Ralph from stacking the cheese. It is pretty evident that the family has been packing it away to help deal with the inheritance burden that is forthcoming. But the question is how much is enough profit to keep on the sale of the team and is it right to expect that much when you don't hold up the initial bargain. The bargain the AFL made when they came to Buffalo is if the fans show up, the teams agree to compete fairly. The subsequently merged NFL works very hard to hold up this end of the bargain. Ralph has not. If Ralph isn't winning he takes his money and goes home....even though it is his fault he is not winning. That is not bringing competitive football to Buffalo, that is exploiting a fan base.

[brucethomas34]

Living here in Banjo land, I get to listen to sports talk every morning about teams I could care less about in all honesty, but it's better than nothing, so I tune in, really just to see what other sports radio shows sound like, compared to ours. So, short story long, the big topic as of late is how Chris Johnson has been struggling, and not able to break runs on the inside this year, and guess whose name came up in conversation? nope.... guess again... yes, they were talking about Andy Levitre, and they were not raving about the guy in any way. In fact, they feel like they may have overpaid for what is being perceived as middling talent. They were concerned about his run blocking mostly, and other names along the offensive line as well, it wasn't a Levitre bash fest, but I was surprised to hear that he wasn't the second coming of Jesus Christ in guard form. From all the comments around here, you's think we let the "all mighty" walk(on water to tennessee at that), and bashed the front office for doing so.

 

Maybe.... Juuuuuust maybe.... our front office was very smart in not over paying for a guard, even if we didn't have a better alternative to replace him. sometimes you have to let a guy walk, especially one who isn't blowing it up on his new team.

 

 

Take this for what it's worth, just thought it would be nice to show a different side to what was perceived as a mistake in not keeping a guy.

 

They should of signed him after his third year, not forth, the titans over payed. Lets not forget we re signed wood with that money we saved and he's a much more valuable to the bills.

[C.Biscuit97]

Of our 3 losses, which ones were due to poor LG play?

 

All of them. LG is single handedly holding back this team.

 

Face it, Levitre isn't worth what he got paid. Not many guards are. The Titans signed him and drafted a G with a top 10 (rarely happens) and still struggle to run the ball.

 

Again, the problem isn't that the Bills let AL walk. It's that Brown isn't good enough. But LG is still one of the most replaceable positions in football. And you're delusional if you think our record is any different if we had LEvitre.

[Doc]

All of them. LG is single handedly holding back this team.

 

Face it, Levitre isn't worth what he got paid. Not many guards are. The Titans signed him and drafted a G with a top 10 (rarely happens) and still struggle to run the ball.

 

Again, the problem isn't that the Bills let AL walk. It's that Brown isn't good enough. But LG is still one of the most replaceable positions in football. And you're delusional if you think our record is any different if we had LEvitre.

Exactly. Which gets us back to question of whether giving AL $7.8M/year would have been a good investment. The answer is clearly "no."

[C.Biscuit97]

Exactly. Which gets us back to question of whether giving AL $7.8M/year would have been a good investment. The answer is clearly "no."

 

Yup. I'd rather lock up Wood and Glenn long term and plug in the rest of the oline. LT and C are the main positions on the oline. There's a reason why teams don't pick guards high.

[CBD]

Can anyone here recall a game in which Fitz relinquished a lead late in the game?

Last season vs. Tennessee, Bills were up 34-28 going into 4th quarter, Fitz threw an int with 2:57 left in the game to setup the go ahead TD for the Titans, Bills lose 35-34. Edited October 9, 2013 by Carey Bender

[C.Biscuit97]

Last season vs. Tennessee, Bills were up 34-28 going into 4th quarter, Fitz threw an int with 2:57 left in the game to setup the go ahead TD for the Titans, Bills lose 35-28.

 

That INT cost them -6 points? Very costly turnover.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

Even as a Fitz fan (I have his jersey!), I am afraid one can find examples where poor play down the stretch led to lost leads.

 

In 2011, Bills were leading the Giants... Fitz throws an INT on an underthrown bomb, Giants march to winning score.

 

In 2012, the Tennessee Game was already mentioned. One could argue that the offense's poor performance against St. Louis left the door open for their comeback as well.

[mannc]

Exactly. Which gets us back to question of whether giving AL $7.8M/year would have been a good investment. The answer is clearly "no."

How is it not a "good investment" if the team well under the salary cap and hurting at left guard? Good investment for whom? For Ralph? As a fan, assuming the team is comfortably under the cap, which they are, why do you care if they "overpay" one of their best offensive linemen? Please list the top tier players in the prime of their careers that organizations like Green Bay, SF, Baltimore, Seattle, or Denver have allowed to walk out the door in free agency. I believe the Bills are one of the few franchises that has a history of doing so, but I could be wrong.

 

Yup. I'd rather lock up Wood and Glenn long term and plug in the rest of the oline. LT and C are the main positions on the oline. There's a reason why teams don't pick guards high.

Why do you think it was an "either or" situation? Are you are just parroting the company line from OBD? And by the way, there were two guards taken in the top 10 this year, and 3 taken in the first 20 picks. Why do you think that is?

Edited October 9, 2013 by mannc

[Big Turk]

Living here in Banjo land, I get to listen to sports talk every morning about teams I could care less about in all honesty, but it's better than nothing, so I tune in, really just to see what other sports radio shows sound like, compared to ours. So, short story long, the big topic as of late is how Chris Johnson has been struggling, and not able to break runs on the inside this year, and guess whose name came up in conversation? nope.... guess again... yes, they were talking about Andy Levitre, and they were not raving about the guy in any way. In fact, they feel like they may have overpaid for what is being perceived as middling talent. They were concerned about his run blocking mostly, and other names along the offensive line as well, it wasn't a Levitre bash fest, but I was surprised to hear that he wasn't the second coming of Jesus Christ in guard form. From all the comments around here, you's think we let the "all mighty" walk(on water to tennessee at that), and bashed the front office for doing so.

 

Maybe.... Juuuuuust maybe.... our front office was very smart in not over paying for a guard, even if we didn't have a better alternative to replace him. sometimes you have to let a guy walk, especially one who isn't blowing it up on his new team.

 

 

Take this for what it's worth, just thought it would be nice to show a different side to what was perceived as a mistake in not keeping a guy.

 

Levitre's strength is pass blocking not run blocking...definitely overpaid for him....he is a damn good pass blocker tho...

[thebandit27]

How is it not a "good investment" if the team well under the salary cap and hurting at left guard? Good investment for whom? For Ralph? As a fan, assuming the team is comfortably under the cap, which they are, why do you care if they "overpay" one of their best offensive linemen? Please list the top tier players in the prime of their careers that organizations like Green Bay, SF, Baltimore, Seattle, or Denver have allowed to walk out the door in free agency. I believe the Bills are one of the few franchises that has a history of doing so, but I could be wrong.

 

 

Why do you think it was an "either or" situation? Are you are just parroting the company line from OBD? And by the way, there were two guards taken in the top 10 this year, and 3 taken in the first 20 picks. Why do you think that is?

 

As I explained in this very thread before:

 

I don't know if this will change your opinion at all; I just like to point out that the team won't have all that cap space forever, and decisions need to be made. They are currently paying Urbik $4M/year, and just extended Eric Wood for $6.5M/year. In another year and a half, they'll need to re-sign Cordy Glenn to LT money ($9M/year minimum). You can't expect to keep every free agent, and if you intend to be a good all-around team, paying $28M/year to 4 players on the OL isn't practical. Good teams don't do that.

 

You won't find a great team paying top 10 money to more than 1 or 2 offensive linemen. According to Spotrac, here's a list of teams paying top dollar to more than 1 (with average annual salary in parenthesis):

 

Jets - Mangold (2) and Ferguson (7)

Broncos - Clady (1) and Vasquez (10)

Panthers - Gross (6) and Kalil (1)

Rams - Long (8) and Wells (4)

Seahawks - Okung (9) and Unger (6)

TB - Nicks (1), Joseph (5), and Zuttah (10)

NO - Evans (3) and Grubbs (7)

 

That's only 7 teams in the 32-team league that are paying more than 1 OL top 10 money. When Wood's contract kicks in next year, he'll be the 4th-highest paid C in the league in terms of average salary, so saving the big money for Glenn, instead of Levitre, was a wise move IMO.

 

As to your question regarding why 3 guards were taken in the first 20 picks: those teams thought those guards would be elite players. So far, none have proven themselves so (admittedly it's very early).

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Living here in Banjo land, I get to listen to sports talk every morning about teams I could care less about in all honesty, but it's better than nothing, so I tune in, really just to see what other sports radio shows sound like, compared to ours. So, short story long, the big topic as of late is how Chris Johnson has been struggling, and not able to break runs on the inside this year, and guess whose name came up in conversation? nope.... guess again... yes, they were talking about Andy Levitre, and they were not raving about the guy in any way. In fact, they feel like they may have overpaid for what is being perceived as middling talent. They were concerned about his run blocking mostly, and other names along the offensive line as well, it wasn't a Levitre bash fest, but I was surprised to hear that he wasn't the second coming of Jesus Christ in guard form. From all the comments around here, you's think we let the "all mighty" walk(on water to tennessee at that), and bashed the front office for doing so.

 

Maybe.... Juuuuuust maybe.... our front office was very smart in not over paying for a guard, even if we didn't have a better alternative to replace him. sometimes you have to let a guy walk, especially one who isn't blowing it up on his new team.

 

 

Take this for what it's worth, just thought it would be nice to show a different side to what was perceived as a mistake in not keeping a guy.

 

Wrong, Johnson has been going down hill for years, Levitre was our best lineman and would fill the obvious whole we have at guard.

[C.Biscuit97]

How is it not a "good investment" if the team well under the salary cap and hurting at left guard? Good investment for whom? For Ralph? As a fan, assuming the team is comfortably under the cap, which they are, why do you care if they "overpay" one of their best offensive linemen? Please list the top tier players in the prime of their careers that organizations like Green Bay, SF, Baltimore, Seattle, or Denver have allowed to walk out the door in free agency. I believe the Bills are one of the few franchises that has a history of doing so, but I could be wrong.

 

 

Why do you think it was an "either or" situation? Are you are just parroting the company line from OBD? And by the way, there were two guards taken in the top 10 this year, and 3 taken in the first 20 picks. Why do you think that is?

 

1) Are you really going by the Arizona Cardinals and Tennessee Titans as model franchises of what you should do? The Cards have been drafting 1st round bust olinemen for years (Leonard Davis, Levi Brown) and average 3.5 ypc. The Titans average 3.7 ypc. The Bills average 4.3. Wow, what a difference those top 10 pick Gs have made!

 

2) This is why fans can't be GMs. You can't just sign everybody if you want to have a consistently good team. You get yourself in salary cap jail. At some point, you have to let players go. The Bills have signed guys like Stevie, Wood, Mario, etc. to big time deals. Pittsburgh for years let players walk and they were always good. Now, age has finally caught up to them.

[mannc]

As I explained in this very thread before:

 

 

 

As to your question regarding why 3 guards were taken in the first 20 picks: those teams thought those guards would be elite players. So far, none have proven themselves so (admittedly it's very early).

You make a good point, but I'm not convinced yet that (1) Glenn merits being paid as one of the top 10 tackles in the league, and (2) even if he does, that the Bills couldn't "afford" Glenn, Wood and Levitre in 2015, when Glenn's new deal would kick in. The 49ers have at least three former high no. 1 picks on their O-line. How are they able to "afford" that? Also, I don't think Glenn's rookie deal would expire for another two years, so the Bills would not have three "top ten highest paid" linemen on the roster until 2015, right?. And of course, Wood's and Levitre's deal might not even be top ten by that time. I just don't believe that the way to build a championship team, especially in a place like buffalo, is to allow your top players to walk in the prime of their careers, even if you have to "overpay" to retain them.

[The Big Cat]

Last season vs. Tennessee, Bills were up 34-28 going into 4th quarter, Fitz threw an int with 2:57 left in the game to setup the go ahead TD for the Titans, Bills lose 35-28.

 

Final score of that game was 34-35. All 5 TD's given up by the defense. Still blaming that one on the quarterback?

[mannc]

1) Are you really going by the Arizona Cardinals and Tennessee Titans as model franchises of what you should do? The Cards have been drafting 1st round bust olinemen for years (Leonard Davis, Levi Brown) and average 3.5 ypc. The Titans average 3.7 ypc. The Bills average 4.3. Wow, what a difference those top 10 pick Gs have made!

 

2) This is why fans can't be GMs. You can't just sign everybody if you want to have a consistently good team. You get yourself in salary cap jail. At some point, you have to let players go. The Bills have signed guys like Stevie, Wood, Mario, etc. to big time deals. Pittsburgh for years let players walk and they were always good. Now, age has finally caught up to them.

Your statement was that guards are not drafted high for good reason. I refuted that by giving three examples in THIS YEAR'S draft. Apparently, that's not good enough for you. And , yes, Pittsburgh has let good players walk, but those have been guys who are on the downside of their careers, or who have other issues, like Wallace. And, as you note, it has hurt them. Also, I could point out that some of the guys the Bills have extended, like Fitz and Kelsay, did not merit it, but that's ancient history, I guess.

[The Big Cat]

Your statement was that guards are not drafted high for good reason. I refuted that by giving three examples in THIS YEAR'S draft. Apparently, that's not good enough for you. And , yes, Pittsburgh has let good players walk, but those have been guys who are on the downside of their careers, or who have other issues, like Wallace. And, as you note, it has hurt them. Also, I could point out that some of the guys the Bills have extended, like Fitz and Kelsay, did not merit it, but that's ancient history, I guess.

 

Okay, but what outcome are you looking for when it comes to having kept Levitre? How would this team be different?

[CBD]

Final score of that game was 34-35. All 5 TD's given up by the defense. Still blaming that one on the quarterback?

The interception that put them in scoring postion at the end of the game i'll put on the QB.

[The Big Cat]

The interception that put them in scoring postion at the end of the game i'll put on the QB.

 

They were in scoring position from their own 48? Wow.

 

If you have to lie to make your point, it's probably not a point worth making.

[Delete This Account]

Is it your opinion, John, that spending $8M/year on Levitre was a wise investment?

 

my opinion is that the Bills should have locked up Levitre well in advance. and my point is, whatever struggles he's having in Tennessee does not in any way reflect on how valuable he was in Buffalo, and still proves to be given the ongoing troubles the Bills have had in their attempt to replace him.

 

he's a good player, and to suggest he's not 5 games into the season with a new team is a reflection of someone attempting to be a homer, i think.

 

jw

[mannc]

Okay, but what outcome are you looking for when it comes to having kept Levitre? How would this team be different?

Hard to say, but I'm guessing they would have been able to run the ball more consistently between the tackles and that EJ would not have been sacked 8 times against the Jets. It makes a difference when you have even one lineman who is clearly a liability. Defensive coordinators know it and exploit it.

[thebandit27]

Wrong, Johnson has been going down hill for years, Levitre was our best lineman and would fill the obvious whole we have at guard.

 

From what I understand in my conversations with my contacts around the league, it's pretty widely accepted that Wood is the better lineman than Levitre.

 

You make a good point, but I'm not convinced yet that (1) Glenn merits being paid as one of the top 10 tackles in the league, and (2) even if he does, that the Bills couldn't "afford" Glenn, Wood and Levitre in 2015, when Glenn's new deal would kick in. The 49ers have at least three former high no. 1 picks on their O-line. How are they able to "afford" that? Also, I don't think Glenn's rookie deal would expire for another two years, so the Bills would not have three "top ten highest paid" linemen on the roster until 2015, right?. And of course, Wood's and Levitre's deal might not even be top ten by that time. I just don't believe that the way to build a championship team, especially in a place like buffalo, is to allow your top players to walk in the prime of their careers, even if you have to "overpay" to retain them.

 

Regarding Glenn, when a young LT is up for a new deal, he's going to look for top 10 money; he'd be crazy not to. As for the 49ers, both Iupati and Davis are still on their rookie deals, so it's not an apples-to-apples comparison. You can be sure that when both of them come up for free agency next year, they won't both be getting long-term contracts.

 

It's not about top-10 money, that was merely a line in the sand drawn for comparison. It's about not investing 25% of your salary cap space in the offensive line. It's not a prudent approach, which is why no successful team does that. The only team that comes close is Tampa Bay, and they're horrible.

 

I think the issue that's arisen here is that folks view Levitre as one of the team's top players. To me, that says more about the low overall talent level on the team than it does about Levitre. He's a good guard, maybe top 10 in the league. Worth $8M/year? Not even close. He's getting more than guys like Chris Snee, Ben Grubbs, Marshall Yanda, Justin Blalock, and Josh Sitton. These are all former pro bowlers and better players. Overpaying at low-impact positions is how a team sets itself up for disaster.

 

my opinion is that the Bills should have locked up Levitre well in advance. and my point is, whatever struggles he's having in Tennessee does not in any way reflect on how valuable he was in Buffalo, and still proves to be given the ongoing troubles the Bills have had in their attempt to replace him.

 

he's a good player, and to suggest he's not 5 games into the season with a new team is a reflection of someone attempting to be a homer, i think.

 

jw

 

Good player, yes. With regard to your statement about locking him up sooner, do you know--since you report on the team and may know something I don't--if Levitre or his agent showed any desire in signing a long-term deal sooner? From the comments I remember, he seemed pretty excited about the chance to test the market.

[mannc]

From what I understand in my conversations with my contacts around the league, it's pretty widely accepted that Wood is the better lineman than Levitre.

 

 

 

Regarding Glenn, when a young LT is up for a new deal, he's going to look for top 10 money; he'd be crazy not to. As for the 49ers, both Iupati and Davis are still on their rookie deals, so it's not an apples-to-apples comparison. You can be sure that when both of them come up for free agency next year, they won't both be getting long-term contracts.

 

It's not about top-10 money, that was merely a line in the sand drawn for comparison. It's about not investing 25% of your salary cap space in the offensive line. It's not a prudent approach, which is why no successful team does that. The only team that comes close is Tampa Bay, and they're horrible.

 

I think the issue that's arisen here is that folks view Levitre as one of the team's top players. To me, that says more about the low overall talent level on the team than it does about Levitre. He's a good guard, maybe top 10 in the league. Worth $8M/year? Not even close. He's getting more than guys like Chris Snee, Ben Grubbs, Marshall Yanda, Justin Blalock, and Josh Sitton. These are all former pro bowlers and better players. Overpaying at low-impact positions is how a team sets itself up for disaster.

 

 

 

Good player, yes. With regard to your statement about locking him up sooner, do you know--since you report on the team and may know something I don't--if Levitre or his agent showed any desire in signing a long-term deal sooner? From the comments I remember, he seemed pretty excited about the chance to test the market.

Again, Bandit, you make many good points. I still think the jury is out with respect to whether Cordy Glenn is good enough to worry about re-signing, especially if it means letting Levitre walk. I'm not convinced that's why the Bills did not sign Levitre. And of course, you're right; maybe Levitre just didn't want to play here, but I think the available evidence is that the Bills did not aggressively try to re-sign him. It will be interesting to see what the 49ers do when those guys become eligible to become FAs. By the way, are you sure no good team invests 25 percent or more of their cap-space on the O-line? I'm not disputing it, I'm just surprised.

Edited October 9, 2013 by mannc

[thebandit27]

Again, Bandit, you make many good points. I still think the jury is out with respect to whether Cordy Glenn is good enough to worry about re-signing, especially if it means letting Levitre walk. I'm not convinced that's why the Bills did not sign Levitre. And of course, you're right; maybe Levitre just didn't want to play here, but I think the available evidence is that the Bills did not aggressively try to re-sign him. It will be interesting to see what the 49ers do when those guys become eligible to become FAs. By the way, are you sure no good team invests 25 percent or more of their cap-space on the O-line? I'm not disputing it, I'm just surprised.

 

Seems to be the case based on Spotrac's numbers (and from what I can tell they're very accurate). Although it really depends on how you look at it...cap hit and actually cash paid--as you well know--are very different.

 

This post below seems to indicate that, as of 2012, Tampa Bay has the 3rd highest investment in their OL at $22M+ invested in just Joseph and Nicks:

 

http://www.nationalf...r-starters.html

 

EDIT: Actually...a bit more diligence has brought me to our answer. Here's a really, really good breakdown of cap space percentage invested by team. By-and-large, the % spent on the OL is between 10 and 20 % throughout the league. A few teams dip below 10 and a few above 20, but nobody comes close to 25%:

 

http://www.usatoday....roster/2808773/

Edited October 9, 2013 by thebandit27

[K-9]

my opinion is that the Bills should have locked up Levitre well in advance. and my point is, whatever struggles he's having in Tennessee does not in any way reflect on how valuable he was in Buffalo, and still proves to be given the ongoing troubles the Bills have had in their attempt to replace him.

 

he's a good player, and to suggest he's not 5 games into the season with a new team is a reflection of someone attempting to be a homer, i think.

 

jw

 

Too bad he wasn't amenable to being "locked up well in advance." He wasn't gonna be cheated out of his "once in a lifetime opportunity" as he put it. More power to him.

 

Or are you suggesting the Bills should have thrown starting LT money at him from the get go?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[habes1280]

I think it was an error in letting him walk, no matter how badly he's perceived to be playing in Ten. He's better than Colin Brown, no doubt. The Bills are 20 MILLION dollars under the cap. There's no excuse to let ANYONE walk when you have that much coin laying around.

 

Agreed. The issue isn't whether or not we should have paid him the huge contract, it is whether or not we should have let him walk. There are plenty of ways to extend your players without ponying up record-setting contracts, and most of them begin by entering contract negotiations in the year BEFORE the contract expires, like they did this year with Eric Wood (and, whether rightly or wrongly, like they did with Fitz, when they rightly or wrongly determined that he was the answer at QB). In this way, you provide the player security and a display of loyalty, and AVOID letting a depleted market determine his value. If memory serves, the Bills entered these talks with Levitre in his contract year, but when those talks broke down, they abandoned them fairly quickly. In so doing, the Bills took a rather risky and short-sighted approach-- they saved money in his contract year, but it cost them all of their leverage once he entered the free agent market. Tennessee overbid, and whether or not the Bills were wise to opt out, they lost a good player that they will now have to spend another draft pick to replace. This keeps happening, and it's maddening. If you're going to build through the draft, at some point you have to invest in those core players who have proven their value.

[transient]

Hard to say, but I'm guessing they would have been able to run the ball more consistently between the tackles and that EJ would not have been sacked 8 times against the Jets. It makes a difference when you have even one lineman who is clearly a liability. Defensive coordinators know it and exploit it.

Hard to argue our running game would be too much better. We're 3rd in the league in rushing having faced 2 of the top 5, and 4 of the top 10 defenses in rushing yards allowed despite teams knowing that we're likely to be run happy with a rookie QB, CJ and Fred. I'm not suggesting that Brown doesn't suck, just that we're doing ok on the ground without Levitre.

[K-9]

Agreed. The issue isn't whether or not we should have paid him the huge contract, it is whether or not we should have let him walk. There are plenty of ways to extend your players without ponying up record-setting contracts, and most of them begin by entering contract negotiations in the year BEFORE the contract expires, like they did this year with Eric Wood (and, whether rightly or wrongly, like they did with Fitz, when they rightly or wrongly determined that he was the answer at QB). In this way, you provide the player security and a display of loyalty, and AVOID letting a depleted market determine his value. If memory serves, the Bills entered these talks with Levitre in his contract year, but when those talks broke down, they abandoned them fairly quickly. In so doing, the Bills took a rather risky and short-sighted approach-- they saved money in his contract year, but it cost them all of their leverage once he entered the free agent market. Tennessee overbid, and whether or not the Bills were wise to opt out, they lost a good player that they will now have to spend another draft pick to replace. This keeps happening, and it's maddening. If you're going to build through the draft, at some point you have to invest in those core players who have proven their value.

 

If Levitre were an all-around, dominant G, perhaps the Bills would have made more of an effort, but that wasn't gonna change his mindset about his "once in a lifetime opportunity." Or are you, too, suggesting they should have just offered starting LT money right from the get go? I maintain that's just too much for Levitre given his rather average ability as a run blocker and his tendency to get overpowered at the POA more than you'd like to see. Great pass blocking tactician though. But that's not enough.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[BillnutinHouston]

 

Can anyone here recall a game in which Fitz relinquished a lead late in the game?

How about last year's loss to the Titans?

[BuffaloBob]

I think it was an error in letting him walk, no matter how badly he's perceived to be playing in Ten. He's better than Colin Brown, no doubt. The Bills are 20 MILLION dollars under the cap. There's no excuse to let ANYONE walk when you have that much coin laying around.

 

Dude, just because they are 20 million under right now, does not mean they are $20 million under next year based on current commitments. People who make this argument are 2 dimensional thinkers at best. You don't just have to worry about what the cap space is right now, this season. You have to worry about what the cap space will look like next year, and the next 4 years after that, and especially when adding the type of contract Levitre signed in Tennessee on top of the raises and additional bonus money that will be due current players in the future.

 

Moreover, there are other players they want to extend, and that adds an additional level of complexity in balancing the books for future years. Stop looking at as if it only matters what the cap space is THIS season. Unless you're signing him to a ONE YEAR CONTRACT, this year's cap space is only a small part of the total story.

[mannc]

Dude, just because they are 20 million under right now, does not mean they are $20 million under next year based on current commitments. People who make this argument are 2 dimensional thinkers at best. You don't just have to worry about what the cap space is right now, this season. You have to worry about what the cap space will look like next year, and the next 4 years after that, and especially when adding the type of contract Levitre signed in Tennessee on top of the raises and additional bonus money that will be due current players in the future.

 

Moreover, there are other players they want to extend, and that adds an additional level of complexity in balancing the books for future years. Stop looking at as if it only matters what the cap space is THIS season. Unless you're signing him to a ONE YEAR CONTRACT, this year's cap space is only a small part of the total story.

It's certainly a fair point. Do you have any information regarding what the Bills' cap situation looks like for next year? I assume that some contracts will come off completely, and other cap numbers will either rise or fall. Of course, there are many variables that we just don't know right now.

[BuffaloBob]

 

 

Agreed. The issue isn't whether or not we should have paid him the huge contract, it is whether or not we should have let him walk. There are plenty of ways to extend your players without ponying up record-setting contracts, and most of them begin by entering contract negotiations in the year BEFORE the contract expires, like they did this year with Eric Wood (and, whether rightly or wrongly, like they did with Fitz, when they rightly or wrongly determined that he was the answer at QB). In this way, you provide the player security and a display of loyalty, and AVOID letting a depleted market determine his value. If memory serves, the Bills entered these talks with Levitre in his contract year, but when those talks broke down, they abandoned them fairly quickly. In so doing, the Bills took a rather risky and short-sighted approach-- they saved money in his contract year, but it cost them all of their leverage once he entered the free agent market. Tennessee overbid, and whether or not the Bills were wise to opt out, they lost a good player that they will now have to spend another draft pick to replace. This keeps happening, and it's maddening. If you're going to build through the draft, at some point you have to invest in those core players who have proven their value.

 

You are making an assumption that Levitre would have been a willing participant in that process. You are assuming that he would have gladly signed a discounted contract if only the Bills had been willing to do that. But based on the snippets of conversation that came out over the course of last season, he wasn't interested in doing that. He stated flat out that he WANTED to hit free agency. When a guy wants to roll the dice and test free agency, he isn't thinking about signing a deal before he does so.

 

The whole point of hitting free agency is seeing what the market will bear. He clearly wanted to do that. He supposedly rebuffed Bills overtures to talk saying just that. So unless the Bills wanted to overpay him to keep him from doing that, he wasn't there to be had for a less than market contract as you suggest.

[The Big Cat]

How about last year's loss to the Titans?

 

You mean the one we already broke down? The one when we didn't have a lead until the closing seconds of the third quarter?

[K-9]

You are making an assumption that Levitre would have been a willing participant in that process. You are assuming that he would have gladly signed a discounted contract if only the Bills had been willing to do that. But based on the snippets of conversation that came out over the course of last season, he wasn't interested in doing that. He stated flat out that he WANTED to hit free agency. When a guy wants to roll the dice and test free agency, he isn't thinking about signing a deal before he does so.

 

The whole point of hitting free agency is seeing what the market will bear. He clearly wanted to do that. He supposedly rebuffed Bills overtures to talk saying just that. So unless the Bills wanted to overpay him to keep him from doing that, he wasn't there to be had for a less than market contract as you suggest.

 

And why on earth would the Bills or ANY team for that matter, bid against themselves?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Fan in Chicago]

I had and have been a supporter of signing Levitre and was disappointed that we did not.

BUT, no matter where you fall in the Levitre debate, it is clear that the Bills failed to adequately replace him. In this discussion about whether or not we should have signed Levitre, a point is being missed (I haven't looked at the entire thread to see if it was made here). It was one made by NoSaint in another thread - there were other lower priced free agent Guards available in free agency. Fine if Levitre was 'too expensive' . Why did we not pursue Vasquez who signed with the Broncos @ 4 year - $23.5 million ?

How about Willie Colon (may have been short gap but still viable) ?

See this list:

http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2013G.php

 

What possible explanation is there to not have even pursued, say, Vasquez ?

[BuffaloBob]

 

It's certainly a fair point. Do you have any information regarding what the Bills' cap situation looks like for next year? I assume that some contracts will come off completely, and other cap numbers will either rise or fall. Of course, there are many variables that we just don't know right now.

 

Nope. I used to spend lot's of time doing that sort of thing, but it's silly unless someone is paying one to do that.

 

My point is that those who simply make that argument, that this year right now we are x dollars under the cap, and therefore we should sign every free agent to a huge crazy contract because the numbers work out THIS season are doing so out their butts.

 

Whether a team commits that sort of money (including the guaranteed money) to any player has to be evaluated with a view down the road, probably 3-5 years out. Teams routinely got themselves in cap hell on a regular basis by writing contracts for the now, and only thinking about what can I fit under this year's cap, without consideration of what happens when the cap hits keep escalating down the road. Then you're stuck cutting guys you want to keep to get under the cap, and crippling yourself with dead cap money into the future by doing so.

 

You have to have a working 3-5 year plan of what you think the overall allowable cap increase will be each year, what the escalators are for each guy as the years pass, which guys contracts are going to expire and do you want to extend them. What market contracts look like for those guys in the future. Then you have to also prioritize importance of the position because no matter what you do, you won't be able to keep everybody.

 

The issue is just way more complex than, "Hey man, we're $20 million under the cap this year, so what's the problem? Pay the man his money."

 

I had and have been a supporter of signing Levitre and was disappointed that we did not.

BUT, no matter where you fall in the Levitre debate, it is clear that the Bills failed to adequately replace him. In this discussion about whether or not we should have signed Levitre, a point is being missed (I haven't looked at the entire thread to see if it was made here). It was one made by NoSaint in another thread - there were other lower priced free agent Guards available in free agency. Fine if Levitre was 'too expensive' . Why did we not pursue Vasquez who signed with the Broncos @ 4 year - $23.5 million ?

How about Willie Colon (may have been short gap but still viable) ?

See this list:

http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2013G.php

 

What possible explanation is there to not have even pursued, say, Vasquez ?

 

Well, maybe they didn't want to pay a guard $6 million per year either! How many guys on any NFL roster can you pay $6 million per year? Do the math! Maybe, you hope you can get a guy that you can develop for an average of $2 Million per year for four years.

[GG]

and yet Andy proved so valuable in Buffalo, that the BIlls are still scrambling in their search to replace him.

 

jw

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

[BuffaloBob]

 

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Yeah, well that PROVES it then. He's worth $20 million per year!!!

[mannc]

I had and have been a supporter of signing Levitre and was disappointed that we did not.

BUT, no matter where you fall in the Levitre debate, it is clear that the Bills failed to adequately replace him. In this discussion about whether or not we should have signed Levitre, a point is being missed (I haven't looked at the entire thread to see if it was made here). It was one made by NoSaint in another thread - there were other lower priced free agent Guards available in free agency. Fine if Levitre was 'too expensive' . Why did we not pursue Vasquez who signed with the Broncos @ 4 year - $23.5 million ?

How about Willie Colon (may have been short gap but still viable) ?

See this list:

http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2013G.php

 

What possible explanation is there to not have even pursued, say, Vasquez ?

or perhaps investing a 5th round pick on the position.