Is Diggs done?

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Eh - he was getting absolutely mugged by sneed that entire game with 0 calls.   

Nah, that was good coverage. Sneed is very good. But Diggs has struggled to separate of late.

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't see how it could be because Brady took over. His route depth has gone up slightly since week 10 so it isn't just because we're throwing more screens. His drop percentage skyrocketing isn't because of Brady. For whatever reason he has just been off his game for a few weeks, I don't think there is an explanation.

 

I'm guessing it's a combo of small scheme changes with Brady and an injury that is being hidden, plus the fact that the first half of the season showed other teams that "all we have is Diggs" so they double/blanket him. Not even mentioning that the refs also allow DBs to mug him however they want.

 

I expect Brady to get it figured out and better balanced as we get to the playoffs.

Just now, dave mcbride said:

Nah, that was good coverage. Sneed is very good. But Diggs has struggled to separate of late.

 

There were at least 2 big plays I can remember off the top of my head that Sneed should have been flagged and the refs did nothing.

 

The deep shot on our last FG drive. Sneed had him by the arm. Diggs should have done a better job of stopping to come back for the ball and fighting through Sneed to draw the easy DPI.

 

And a quick slant to Diggs with Sneed draped over him, and hanging off his left arm again, ripping his arm down before the ball even got there. Obvious. No flag.

 

Sneed, like most "good" DBs, is good because he is being allowed to be physical without the flags. Douglas or Benford try it and they get flagged all day.

4 minutes ago, Lost said:

 

I don't think it's scheme that's causing him to drop easy WR screen passes.

 

No, but that's one play and those stats cover a lot more than that. That was a bad drop at the end of the game and we definitely need better there from our superstar.

[dave mcbride]

26 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

There were at least 2 big plays I can remember off the top of my head that Sneed should have been flagged and the refs did nothing.

 

The deep shot on our last FG drive. Sneed had him by the arm. Diggs should have done a better job of stopping to come back for the ball and fighting through Sneed to draw the easy DPI.

 

And a quick slant to Diggs with Sneed draped over him, and hanging off his left arm again, ripping his arm down before the ball even got there. Obvious. No flag.

 

Sneed, like most "good" DBs, is good because he is being allowed to be physical without the flags. Douglas or Benford try it and they get flagged all day.

 

Enh ... I don't know about that. Diggs' game has always been a vast route tree plus short area quickness that gets him into a position where no DB has the ability to get to him slightly early. That's happening now, and we're complaining about it. He needs to more clearly separate. That's his game, not contested catches with sticky, handsy DBs. Complaining about the refs strikes me as whistling past the graveyard here. At the moment, he's not creating the separation necessary to obviate that sort of tactic by DBs. To be fair, in the last three games he's been covered by Sauce, Bradberry, and Sneed, who are all very good players. That should be factored in too.  

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Diggs has 5 drops the last 3 games, ouch. 
 

He’ll come around. If there is one dude In not worried about putting in the work, it’s Diggs. 

[Eastport bills]

Rather than start questioning this highly productive player, who has put up great numbers for the whole time he’s been here and been instrumental in Josh’s development, let’s give him a pass because the offense has been clicking while he’s been doubled and putting up good numbers while incorporating Cook, Kincaid and Shakir. It’s obvious that teams are determined to take him away. We will need him going forward and anyone who has watched him over the years knows how competitive he is. My sense is that he comes out against Dallas and Gilmore and makes a statement.

[BBFL]

3 minutes ago, Eastport bills said:

Rather than start questioning this highly productive player, who has put up great numbers for the whole time he’s been here and been instrumental in Josh’s development, let’s give him a pass because the offense has been clicking while he’s been doubled and putting up good numbers while incorporating Cook, Kincaid and Shakir. It’s obvious that teams are determined to take him away. We will need him going forward and anyone who has watched him over the years knows how competitive he is. My sense is that he comes out against Dallas and Gilmore and makes a statement.

The only reason it comes into question is a result of the talent behind him for Josh. Huge drop off. 

[longtimebillsfan]

On 12/10/2023 at 5:26 PM, harmonkillebrew said:

He was nonexistent today.  He dropped at least two screens. Sheffield was in for him again multiple times on key downs.

What is going with him and the WR corps more generally?? Was it scheme or is he experiencing a major drop off?

 

Gabe also put up another donut.

 

Josh was struggling all game to find anyone to throw it to.

 

 

Please keep in mind that the KC secondary grabs and holds on every play knowing that the refs will not throw a flag on every play.

 

That played a huge part in the lack of completions  to our wide outs.

[BBFL]

If he falls off you have guys who there is questions about or development players. Gave us the next best choice and he’s already hated upon and possibly out the door next season. 

[BADOLBILZ]

34 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Enh ... I don't know about that. Diggs' game has always been a vast route tree plus short area quickness that gets him into a position where no DB has the ability to get to him slightly early. That's happening now, and we're complaining about it. He needs to more clearly separate. That's his game, not contested catches with sticky, handsy DBs. Complaining about the refs strikes me as whistling past the graveyard here. At the moment, he's not creating the separation necessary to obviate that sort of tactic by DBs. To be fair, in the last three games he's been covered by Sauce, Bradberry, and Sneed, who are all very good players. That should be factored in too.  

 

 

I definitely think his recent slip is related to a back injury.   It explains the lack of flexibility needed to snap off some of his routes.    IMO it was inevitable with all the volume he has been getting in recent years.......and the fact that he's not as adept and not taking big hits like a guy like Hopkins.......that he would reach a point in a season or his career where he was compromised by injury, IMO.

[Eastport bills]

13 minutes ago, BBFL said:

The only reason it comes into question is a result of the talent behind him for Josh. Huge drop off. 

We still averaged 29 since Dorsey’s dismissal. If not using Diggs helped us run more, use Cook in the passing game and get Kincaid and Shakir more involved, it’s a good thing. That gives teams more to defend and should open up Diggs targets. If you watched the KC game, Diggs was smothered. 

[Playoffs?]

He seemed a little ‘checked out.’  Not saying he was.. just seemed that way a little. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I'm guessing it's a combo of small scheme changes with Brady and an injury that is being hidden, plus the fact that the first half of the season showed other teams that "all we have is Diggs" so they double/blanket him. Not even mentioning that the refs also allow DBs to mug him however they want.

 

I expect Brady to get it figured out and better balanced as we get to the playoffs.

 

There were at least 2 big plays I can remember off the top of my head that Sneed should have been flagged and the refs did nothing.

 

The deep shot on our last FG drive. Sneed had him by the arm. Diggs should have done a better job of stopping to come back for the ball and fighting through Sneed to draw the easy DPI.

 

And a quick slant to Diggs with Sneed draped over him, and hanging off his left arm again, ripping his arm down before the ball even got there. Obvious. No flag.

 

Sneed, like most "good" DBs, is good because he is being allowed to be physical without the flags. Douglas or Benford try it and they get flagged all day.

 

No, but that's one play and those stats cover a lot more than that. That was a bad drop at the end of the game and we definitely need better there from our superstar.

 

Sneed had his head around, which apparently matters more than actually playing the ball in the air instead of the person.  

22 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I definitely think his recent slip is related to a back injury.   It explains the lack of flexibility needed to snap off some of his routes.    IMO it was inevitable with all the volume he has been getting in recent years.......and the fact that he's not as adept and not taking big hits like a guy like Hopkins.......that he would reach a point in a season or his career where he was compromised by injury, IMO.

 

He's getting hit a lot more and a lot harder than he was in the first several weeks.  I honestly felt the drops were concentration due to wanting to avoid hits.  

[Drew21PA]

Wouldn’t say a guy that is going to go over 1,000 yards again this season and probably be close to 1400-1500 yards and 10 tds is “checked out” or “done”

 

sheesh

37 minutes ago, longtimebillsfan said:

Please keep in mind that the KC secondary grabs and holds on every play knowing that the refs will not throw a flag on every play.

 

That played a huge part in the lack of completions  to our wide outs.

Why guys like McDermott don’t grasp this is beyond me

 

and hea a defensive coach 

[BullBuchanan]

Yes.
 

[DrDawkinstein]

8 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

He's getting hit a lot more and a lot harder than he was in the first several weeks.  I honestly felt the drops were concentration due to wanting to avoid hits.  

 

Agreed, especially on that late screen pass drop. He felt the DBs blowing through the blocks and turned his head upfield too quickly.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Agreed, especially on that late screen pass drop. He felt the DBs blowing through the blocks and turned his head upfield too quickly.

 

Play was blown up too, another example of our predictable offense.  We crash the WLB, allen will throw the screen and we'll have two DBs crash down immediately. 

[kkim0904]

Diggs needs more deeper routes.  He is one of the best route runner in NFL. I hate seeing multiple 1 yard screen passes on early downs 

Edited December 13, 2023 by kkim0904

[BBFL]

1 minute ago, Eastport bills said:

We still averaged 29 since Dorsey’s dismissal. If not using Diggs helped us run more, use Cook in the passing game and get Kincaid and Shakir more involved, it’s a good thing. That gives teams more to defend and should open up Diggs targets. If you watched the KC game, Diggs was smothered. 

I agree, it is a good thing but both are developing players. Doesn’t matter if he’s smothered or not. He’s of the excellence where that shouldn’t be a problem game in, game out. Did it matter week 1 against Sauce or Miami’s decent secondary? I’m not denying he is a beast just that from observational he’s struggled in big games where the competition is tough which means we are seeing something surface which is a cause for concern going forward given the personnel and carry over into next year. 

[BarleyNY]

32 minutes ago, Eastport bills said:

Rather than start questioning this highly productive player, who has put up great numbers for the whole time he’s been here and been instrumental in Josh’s development, let’s give him a pass because the offense has been clicking while he’s been doubled and putting up good numbers while incorporating Cook, Kincaid and Shakir. It’s obvious that teams are determined to take him away. We will need him going forward and anyone who has watched him over the years knows how competitive he is. My sense is that he comes out against Dallas and Gilmore and makes a statement.

 

I don’t disagree with any of that, but it’s important to look at things realistically too. Diggs has been a top WR in this league. Top 5. Top 8. However you want to slice it. I lived the trade for him at the time and love it still. 

 

But he’s 30 now and he’s more of a top 16 WR now. (I like to use 4/8/16/32 due to there being 32 teams.) I’m still very happy to have him on the Bills.

 

Looking forward, the big fall off for WRs tends to be around age 31. I expect Diggs to have another good, top 16-ish WR season next year and I think he’ll stay a Bill through that season.

 

But you have got to look at the money going to him too. His AAV is still top 5 among WRs. While the cap and contracts continue to increase, it doesn’t take a math major to see that Diggs will soon be very overpaid for his contributions.

 

One last point: people have mentioned that he doesn’t rely on stellar physical tools to win as a WR. That’s true. That may extend his career as a productive role player, but not as a top flight WR. He likely will have the role of savvy vet on a SB contending team. But he won’t be paid anything like the Bills are scheduled to pay him. There will likely be a transitional period where he gets released by the Bills and overpaid elsewhere so I don’t expect him to stay here with a pay cut. After that he will have the option to chase a ring again if he doesn’t already have one. 

[without a drought]

He should just line up 5 yards downfield. 

[BBFL]

11 minutes ago, Drew21PA said:

Wouldn’t say a guy that is going to go over 1,000 yards again this season and probably be close to 1400-1500 yards and 10 tds is “checked out” or “done”

 

sheesh

Why guys like McDermott don’t grasp this is beyond me

 

and hea a defensive coach 

Ok but volume of targets matters. And if he’s on pace for that it’s come in about half the games; incredible yes but again, volume of targets. 
 

Lack of separation and some uncharacteristic drops have happened… His stat line doesn’t change that. 

[BaaadThingsMan]

No. He's opening up things for other players right now but he'll be heard from again. 

 

He should still finish with a top 4 season in Bills history, right next to the rest of his records. 

[SoonerBillsFan]

Something is off with him and Im not sure what it is. We all see it through.

[Blackbeard]

3 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Something is off with him and Im not sure what it is. We all see it through.

There's nothing off with him.

 

He loves Buffalo and wants to be here.  Its THAT simple.  

 

 

[Eastport bills]

19 minutes ago, BBFL said:

I agree, it is a good thing but both are developing players. Doesn’t matter if he’s smothered or not. He’s of the excellence where that shouldn’t be a problem game in, game out. Did it matter week 1 against Sauce or Miami’s decent secondary? I’m not denying he is a beast just that from observational he’s struggled in big games where the competition is tough which means we are seeing something surface which is a cause for concern going forward given the personnel and carry over into next year. 

I understand your frustration, but would you have preferred the offense under Dorsey force feeding Diggs targets against double teaming and not expanding our offense with Cook, who’s becoming a matchup nightmare , Kincaid and Shakir. Don’t minimize Harty’s 30 yd reception on the the game winning FG drive. We know who Diggs is but we’re finding out about other options. I think it’s positive for our offense going forward. Cudos to Brady. Do you care how we get to 30?

[Eastport bills]

30 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

I don’t disagree with any of that, but it’s important to look at things realistically too. Diggs has been a top WR in this league. Top 5. Top 8. However you want to slice it. I lived the trade for him at the time and love it still. 

 

But he’s 30 now and he’s more of a top 16 WR now. (I like to use 4/8/16/32 due to there being 32 teams.) I’m still very happy to have him on the Bills.

 

Looking forward, the big fall off for WRs tends to be around age 31. I expect Diggs to have another good, top 16-ish WR season next year and I think he’ll stay a Bill through that season.

 

But you have got to look at the money going to him too. His AAV is still top 5 among WRs. While the cap and contracts continue to increase, it doesn’t take a math major to see that Diggs will soon be very overpaid for his contributions.

 

One last point: people have mentioned that he doesn’t rely on stellar physical tools to win as a WR. That’s true. That may extend his career as a productive role player, but not as a top flight WR. He likely will have the role of savvy vet on a SB contending team. But he won’t be paid anything like the Bills are scheduled to pay him. There will likely be a transitional period where he gets released by the Bills and overpaid elsewhere so I don’t expect him to stay here with a pay cut. After that he will have the option to chase a ring again if he doesn’t already have one. 

Your point about his value vs cap hit going forward is valid if you see his production decline. Right now, I don’t mind his 3 or 4 game slump while we transition to Brady’s offense. Finally, we’re running the ball and using 12man personnel improving protection and getting the TEs more involved. Do you notice Cook is getting open down the field in the last two games. Shakir and Harty have made important receptions in these games. I also see a critical need for a #2 receiver. Face it , we’re in trouble with the cap next year with Josh’s money exploding. This is where Beane has to be creative because our whole secondary is old and expensive.

[BarleyNY]

5 minutes ago, Eastport bills said:

Your point about his value vs cap hit going forward is valid if you see his production decline. Right now, I don’t mind his 3 or 4 game slump while we transition to Brady’s offense. Finally, we’re running the ball and using 12man personnel improving protection and getting the TEs more involved. Do you notice Cook is getting open down the field in the last two games. Shakir and Harty have made important receptions in these games. I also see a critical need for a #2 receiver. Face it , we’re in trouble with the cap next year with Josh’s money exploding. This is where Beane has to be creative because our whole secondary is old and expensive.

Thank you. I have looked into the cap a fair bit (probably too much) and I think the Bills are going to be okay with the cap next season. It isn’t a stellar situation, but at first glance it looks a lot worse than it is for that season. I’m less optimistic about the added pain in 2025 and/or 2026, depending on how the team manages the situation. 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Agreed, especially on that late screen pass drop. He felt the DBs blowing through the blocks and turned his head upfield too quickly.

He got slammed HARD to the ground (right on his back) in both the Jets and Chiefs games. Can't feel too good, I imagine, especially for a guy who does everything possible to avoid the big hits (he instinctively and smartly goes to the ground quickly rather than fight for the extra half yard and risk injury/fumble).

Edited December 13, 2023 by dave mcbride

[DrDawkinstein]

7 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He got slammed HARD to the ground (right on his back) in both the Jets and Chiefs games. Can't feel too good, I imagine, especially for a guy who does everything possible to avoid the big hits (he instinctively and smartly goes to the ground quickly rather than fight for the extra half yard and risk injury/fumble).

 

Agreed. Although there are times he fights for extra yards, like early in the Chiefs game when he put his shoulder down and got the extra 2 yards for a 1st down. But he is very smart and judicious about when he takes that contact. And in that case, there is a difference between him doing the hitting (driving hard into contact for the 1st) versus being contacted (getting laid out by a DB while in a vulnerable position).

 

But yeah, Wouldnt be surprised to find out after the season he's been dealing with injuries.

[Drew21PA]

3 hours ago, BBFL said:

Ok but volume of targets matters. And if he’s on pace for that it’s come in about half the games; incredible yes but again, volume of targets. 
 

Lack of separation and some uncharacteristic drops have happened… His stat line doesn’t change that. 

I just feel you and the critics are reaching partly because you feel he still has issues with the team and locker room which was also devubked

 

had that not happened I don’t think people would be on him

 

its really ridiculous to be 

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

He’s done as a Bill after this year. Not saying I do or don’t want that to happen, it just is what it is, I don’t see him back here, I think he gets his way and goes to Dallas with his brother and Jerruh likely over pays us in the process.

 

That being said, hopefully Beane works some magic, clears lots of bloated cap numbers, and finds a way to land Waddle and Higgins next year so Josh can win multiple superbowls regardless of clappy on the sidelines…

[BBFL]

21 minutes ago, Drew21PA said:

I just feel you and the critics are reaching partly because you feel he still has issues with the team and locker room which was also devubked

 

had that not happened I don’t think people would be on him

 

its really ridiculous to be 

If that is reaching then so is your point of acting like everything is hunky dory. There is an issue underlying somewhere and that needs to be addressed. You’re completely masking my point with other statements that I was not appertaining to or mentioning… 

 

I will repeat: he is having a lack of separation and several uncharacteristic drops. I’m not seeing where people can’t “be on him” for that. 
 

This coming from the same guy that claims they are “only going to utilize Diggs” a month ago, that Davis needs competition because of drops but also said he was going to be perfectly fine during the off season back in April… Two sides of an argued opinion here. Things change… And Diggs play has done just that. 
 

You’re also the same guy who claimed Higgins is a “bonafide #1 on any team”. Stats between Gabe and Tee aren’t far off when you consider Higgins has had 98 more targets and 90 more receptions over the same span of years… So what does that mean for a guy who questions Davis as a number 2 but screams similar production is that of a bonafide numer 1...

 

 

After Diggs there is a drop off. A significant one. That is my only concern with his play as of late. A valid one at that. 

[BlazinBill]

3 hours ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Something is off with him and Im not sure what it is. We all see it through.

Personally I think after his  brothers comments his game has dropped off a cliff - last year was similar though - he starts really hot in the season and just tapers- hopefully I'm way wrong and this week he racks up 160 yards on 11 catches 

[SoonerBillsFan]

20 minutes ago, Dr.Mantis_Toboggan said:

He’s done as a Bill after this year. Not saying I do or don’t want that to happen, it just is what it is, I don’t see him back here, I think he gets his way and goes to Dallas with his brother and Jerruh likely over pays us in the process.

 

That being said, hopefully Beane works some magic, clears lots of bloated cap numbers, and finds a way to land Waddle and Higgins next year so Josh can win multiple superbowls regardless of clappy on the sidelines…

If Jerruh is willing to hand over a pick and eat most of his cap hit, yeah he is gone.  I personally think he is going to force the issue, but that may be just me.

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

3 hours ago, Blackbeard said:

There's nothing off with him.

 

He loves Buffalo and wants to be here.  Its THAT simple.  

 

 

Meh … he loves Buffalo because he made his rep here as a true WR1 and one of the best at his craft. However, I’m sure when his Bills career is over, he’ll move on to a burg that better fits his apparent lifestyle and not look back. Just doesn’t seem to be a shot and a beer and a snow shovel kind of guy. Nothing wrong with that. 

[BarleyNY]

41 minutes ago, Dr.Mantis_Toboggan said:

He’s done as a Bill after this year. Not saying I do or don’t want that to happen, it just is what it is, I don’t see him back here, I think he gets his way and goes to Dallas with his brother and Jerruh likely over pays us in the process.

 

That being said, hopefully Beane works some magic, clears lots of bloated cap numbers, and finds a way to land Waddle and Higgins next year so Josh can win multiple superbowls regardless of clappy on the sidelines…

 

Highly - as in almost impossible level - unlikely. If the Bills were to trade Diggs in the off-season even if the new team took on all of his future salary, bonuses, etc. his cap hit would increase from $27.9M to $31.1M. Plus they would have to find two starting caliber outside WRs. Davis getting replaced after this season and Diggs after next is what is much more likely. Diggs likely would be designated a post 6/1 cut that season. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by BarleyNY

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Dr.Mantis_Toboggan said:

He’s done as a Bill after this year. Not saying I do or don’t want that to happen, it just is what it is, I don’t see him back here, I think he gets his way and goes to Dallas with his brother and Jerruh likely over pays us in the process.

 

That being said, hopefully Beane works some magic, clears lots of bloated cap numbers, and finds a way to land Waddle and Higgins next year so Josh can win multiple superbowls regardless of clappy on the sidelines…

 

I can always be surprised - I often am - but I would be very surprised to see the Bills trade Diggs, or Dallas trade for Diggs

 

From the Bills side:

1) Diggs would count $31.1M dead cap if cut or traded.  At $27.85M cap hit, it is literally "cheaper to keep him" for the Bills in 2024.

2) He is still, by far, the best WR on the Bills team.  Every Bills fan is talking about how we need more options at WR for Josh, not how we need to get rid of the best and try to back-fill him, while simultaneously trying to upgrade for Gabe Davis.

 

From the Dallas side:

1) They exercised the 5th year option on CeeDee Lamb for $17.99M in 2024.  Capology generally holds that a team paying its QB can not afford to be simultaneously paying top $$ to two WR.  And CeeDee Lamb has done very well for Dallas.  He's their #1 guy for reals - #3 WR in the league right now with a 73% catch %
2) Dallas also has Michael Gallup under contract for 3 more years, with a $13.8M cap hit and $13.1M dead cap if they move on.  Gallup is an OK #2.  He's not been as productive for Dallas as Davis has been for us. 
3) I'm sure Dallas would love to upgrade Gallup for Diggs, but Diggs 2024 salary is $18.5M and it fully guarantees in March.  And, like I said, $13.1 dead cap on Gallup if they trade or cut him.

4) That's not even mentioning the notion of Diggs going to Dallas to be #2 to CeeDee Lamb. I'm sure Diggs would love to be traded to a team as their #2 guy (NOT).

 

Diggs brother is just daydreaming in public.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

 

1 hour ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

If Jerruh is willing to hand over a pick and eat most of his cap hit, yeah he is gone.  I personally think he is going to force the issue, but that may be just me.

 

Jerruh can not "eat most of Diggs cap hit".  Diggs cap hit if traded will consist of amortized bonuses which do not get traded.

 

4 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

He got slammed HARD to the ground (right on his back) in both the Jets and Chiefs games. Can't feel too good, I imagine, especially for a guy who does everything possible to avoid the big hits (he instinctively and smartly goes to the ground quickly rather than fight for the extra half yard and risk injury/fumble).

 

Especially the hit in the Jets game, a personal foul, after the whistle and totally uncalled for - I don't understand why the league doesn't stand up more against those.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Beck Water

[DCofNC]

On 12/10/2023 at 8:33 PM, Perry Turtle said:

I don't know if he's done, but they need to toss those WR Screens to him out of the playbook.  Diggs is an elite route runner.  He's not a speed guy.  Stop wasting him and downs on those stupid play calls.

Those need to go to Shakir and we need to start using that guy more, he could be our “Debo-Light”.

[TrentEdwardsCheckDownOn4th]

He's 30 years old and on the tail end of his career.  He's definitely slowed down and anyone that says otherwise is kidding themselves. Because of his contract the bills are stuck with him for at least one more year . 2025 is going to look a lot different with no Gabe, diggs, Miller , or knox. Tons of cap space will be opened up. The bills could be a juggernaut in 2025 if beane plays his cards right.