Playoff offense is just as much an issue as defense

[Fleezoid]

3 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

I'm highlighting one game to show how our perceptions of what is and isn't an issue have become very clouded. It didn't end up being 16 seconds for the Patriots because they overcame it. It didn't end up being a defensive issue for KC because they overcame it the next year. They both did this on offense. Nearly every team has to overcome on offense in the playoffs as we nearly did in 2021. But the reality is, we have not performed even close to that level before or since and if you look at our broader playoff performances on offense they lack the quality and consistency that we tend to see in the regular season. 

 

Based on 2021 and the poor defensive performance and how we lost 13 seconds, I think most people around here think the offense is fine come playoff time. It hasn't been. This would be much more obvious to most if the defense wasn't horrendous in our losses. But the fact is even if it wasn't, we still likely lose all three games. We see 20 to 1 ratios identifying playoff defense as the main problem. Playoff offense is just as big of a problem. The consistency isn't there and it goes past just 1 game involving KC and the Patriots to know you need to have elite consistency, clutch play, and the ability to score a ton of points if you want to make the Super Bowl. 

No, we just need to perform more consistently. It's all phases, people are just obsessed with defense.

 

My point is that the Bills overcame it in their game too. The only difference, the Bills lost the coin toss. Those games are extremely similar other than the overtime. I agree that the Bills offense hasn't performed well enough in the playoffs since that time. I just don't see the Chiefs Patriots game being a good example when the Bills did the same thing. 

[78thealltimegreat]

  The Bills offenses problem is very much like a team built around three point shooting in basketball… it’s amazing when shots go in but when shots don’t go down do you have another way to generate points and to be honest in many ways they haven’t. 
  They’ve clearly made an off season commitment to give the O more ways to beat you simply by lining up in 12 and 13 personnel would shock many people.  

[Mr. WEO]

this just in.....

[Don Otreply]

6 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

The offense has vastly outperformed the defense in the playoffs

 

I don't think that's even debatable tbh

True enough, but the offense needs to be better as well, that unit has had their problems in the playoffs and their issues stem from the OC to the QB to the O- line to the RBs to the TEs to the WRs, they all need to tighten up their 1/11th.  And I’ll bet they all know it and will do their best to fix what needs to be fixed.

[Mikie2times]

27 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

  The Bills offenses problem is very much like a team built around three point shooting in basketball… it’s amazing when shots go in but when shots don’t go down do you have another way to generate points and to be honest in many ways they haven’t. 
  They’ve clearly made an off season commitment to give the O more ways to beat you simply by lining up in 12 and 13 personnel would shock many people.  

Downright sexy analogy 

[Never NEVER Give-up]

9 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

It's all offense; people talking about defense are older guys who grew up in the '50s, '60s, '70s and '80s hearing "Defense wins championships" and they aren't smart enough to adapt their thinking to a changing world.

 

 

Hey!!! I resemble that comment!!

[Buffalo_Stampede]

In the 13 seconds game the Bills should’ve scored 50 to be honest. The announcers even talked about how conservative the Bills were up to the Gabe Davis long TD.

 

Everyone needs to be better to beat KC and Cincy. The defense has a tougher job than the offense. The defense has to face Mahomes and Burrow. It is fair to expect the offense to carry the team. 
 

That said, 13 seconds is more about unacceptable mistakes made that cost us the game at the end.

[Big Blitz]

What the Chiefs oline did to the Eagles Dline was and is still the most underrated reason why they won.  
 

The Chiefs don’t seem concerned about overpaying WRs yes because they have Reid/Mahomes.  

 

But they also didn’t have Roger Saffold Ryan Bates and a never healthy Spencer Brown to protect the QB and open the running game for Devin Singletary.  

 

Beane’s biggest failure has been oline.  And that’s the difference between us and the Chiefs. 
 

The Chiefs have the best interior Oline in the NFL.  It’s infuriating.  

[Chaos]

I thought everyone understood that we consistently get outcoached on both sides of the ball in playoff games. Is there some controversy about this point? 

[Eastport bills]

10 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Replaying the 4th quarter of the Patriots AFC Championship game at Arrowhead, it became clear just how much the final outcome can cloud the perceptions of how it occurred.

 

In that AFC Championship game, final score, 37-31 ending in a New England win. New England scored to take a 3 point lead with 39 seconds left. It took Mahomes and the Chiefs 16 seconds to get into position to kick the game tying FG from inside the 25. New England would win the toss and score on it's first drive to win the game in OT. No talk of 16 seconds, they won the game. In the process of winning the game, despite having seen Brady do this for the better part of the last 20 years it was impossible to not see the level of precision it took to sustain drives. He was completing passes in the 4th quarter we aren't even attempting. KC had DB's painted on NE WR's and one of the best pass rushes in the league in KC that year had no ability at touch Brady with how quick he was getting the ball out. The level of efficiency on offense that it took to win that game was mind boggling.  

 

KC won the Super Bowl the next year and they didn't do so because they suddenly figured out a way to solve those defensive issues. They did so because Mahomes led an offense as clutch and consistent as any QB we have seen since Brady.

 

Over in our neck of the woods, Josh and the offenses performance in 13 seconds and multiple defensive meltdowns have left us putting the failure of this team squarely on the defenses back. Hogwash. The only year we showed in our losses that we could sustain drives offensively was 2021. We were not able to come back like the Chiefs and execute at that level before or since. To win the Super Bowl you need that level of performance. Ask Philadelphia if you think otherwise.

 

2019 =Our offense scored 19 points in a loss to Houston including 6 points in the second half

2020 =Our offense puts up 9 points in the final 4 minutes to make a 38-15 score look respectable, but anybody watching that game knew we sputtered 

2022 =Our offense puts up 10 points against the Bengals at home

 

We can talk about the defense until we are blue in the face. We will have to perform at a 2021 level for an entire playoff run on offense to have any chance at this. In doing so, we need to be able to efficiently march the ball down field. Something we really haven't done since the back half of 2021.  The defense has sucked in the playoffs, but the offense has as well. If we only allow 13 to the Bengals and they win 13-10, this is completely different perception. But that's all this is right now. A perception that the defense is preventing us from going further. At the end of the day the offense will be what decides this. 

 

 

The Cinn. game should be wiped out of our collective psyche. This team was overwhelmed on both O-line and our defensive front. We were missing our emotional leaders(Miller, Hyde) and White and Poyer were shells of themselves. Dorsey and Frazier had bad game plans, and the snowstorm benefited the Cinn. offense with those receivers. Other than the Cinn. game, we were a good offense, although our O-line and running game were less than top level. This year, with the additions on the interior O-line and bigger RBs, look for better balance and pass protection. Our receivers are arguably as good as any team’s  not named Cinn or Miami. With Josh, can anyone doubt our chances to break through. This team will be more physically imposing on both sides of the ball guaranteed.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

25 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I thought everyone understood that we consistently get outcoached on both sides of the ball in playoff games. Is there some controversy about this point? 

Lies.

[mjt328]

Both the offense and defense have played a role in our playoff losses the last 3 years.

 

The difference between the two... is that we've invested so much draft capitol and cap space into the defense, loaded it up with a half-dozen All-Pro and Pro-Bowl talents (Tre White, Matt Milano, Jordan Poyer, Micah Hyde, Von Miller, Tremaine Edmunds) and the team was STILL totally helpless in stopping Patrick Mahomes or Joe Burrow at any point during those three postseason losses.  This unit has been pretty much maxed out in talent, and it has meant absolutely nothing.  The Chiefs and Bengals moved the ball at will.

 

Our struggles on offense can usually be attributed to weak positions where the team just hasn't been able to find an answer.  This side of the ball is pretty much just Josh Allen, Stefon Diggs, and not much else that scares opponents.  When another weapon other than Diggs actually shows up (such as Gabe Davis in the 2021 divisional game), the offense does great.  When the O-Line actually protects Josh Allen, the offense does great.

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by mjt328

[Virgil]

6 hours ago, Dopey said:

2017 Jax- 10 points given up and we still lost. 

2019 Houston -7 sacks, 22 points given up in an overtime game is not letting the team down. The offense hurt that effort more than the defense. 

2020 Ravens- you’ve acknowledged 
2021 NE - no need to go over 

2022 Dolphins if you dig deeper into how they managed 31 points, yep our offense and ST put our defense in some bad situations. Really bad. The defense balled out that game. Too bad  the offense crapped the bed. Thank you defense. 
 

Right!?!

please stop coming at me with facts 

[Joe Ferguson]

KC had the 27th and 16th ranked defense when they won their two Super Bowls. A great QB is the reason teams win Super Bowls, not a great defense.

[LABILLBACKER]

7 hours ago, HaldimandBills said:

My argument is our coaching strength is on the defensive side of the ball and we spend a lot more on that side than the Chiefs and Bengals. Our defense should be performing much better than it is come playoff time. 

.....you'd think?

35 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson said:

KC had the 27th and 16th ranked defense when they won their two Super Bowls. A great QB is the reason teams win Super Bowls, not a great defense.

Good, then why do we waste so much FA $ and draft picks on defense. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Recency bias in the OP.  

 

In three of the Bills last four playoff games the offense has scored 34, 36 and 47 points. They have totaled 423, 422 and 482 yards. Of the three games their worst offensive performance was against Miami where DESPITE three turnovers and a Knox dropped TD in the end zone they still scored 34 and totaled 423 yards. You know you have a high powered offense when you still put up numbers like that with all the miscues. 

 

It just so happens that the fourth game, is the most recent playoff game and probably the worst offense performance by the Bills since the 3 point showing against the Jags in 2017. 

 

 

[Ayjent]

Both sides of the ball have responsibility for the playoff losses, as well as coaching to put those players in best position to succeed. The lack of investment/successful investment in the offensive line was the weakness of the team last year as well as them getting away from precision timing offense that was working early in the year.  They played to their weakness when it mattered most as the season progressed. 

 

The offense began to resemble a madden player that got bored and wanted to run around looking for big plays every series and the offense lacked consitent rhythm because it was more sandlot than design.  Im not sure who is to blame but the effect was the same and it is up to the team to identify and rectify and they didnt last season.  To me its on everyone and there is no need to point fingers.  However, if Im a player pushing for it to be rectified and no one else is listening i might loose my s#!t.

 

If teams are taking something away you should be built to make them pay bc something else is available and the Bills offense wasnt able to answer.  Theyve done things to address deficiencies with personnel but they also need to better in utilizing their personnel, which they did not do last year.  If your line sucks in pass protection focus on timing and attacking where teams are overaggressive on defense. We had a front seat to how that was done with Brady and Pats.  Is this coaching?  Yes, but...its also based on players preferences and honestly they were good but extremely vulnerable because they lost focus on their ability to dominate.  It was talent overcoming approach until they met other talented teams where you cant hide deficiencies as well. 

 

On defense they stubbornly kept a philosophy over situational matchups.  Same issue - not maximizing effectiveness to create an advantage.  There were coaching issues last year, plain and simple.   Not beating the crap out of Burrow with a gum and paper clip OL in front of him bc we were trying to play it safe with injuries on D was just stupid.  That approach just let the Bengals suck the life out of the Stadium and team from Go.  If Hamlin hadnt been injured in the regular season game I wonder if that similar ass beating that was in progress doesnt change the complexion of how the Bills approached the playoffs.  But that is most likely wishful thinking, bc we've seen that story before where they repeat a flawed strategy.

[hondo in seattle]

On 6/30/2023 at 9:41 AM, Nextmanup said:

It's all offense; people talking about defense are older guys who grew up in the '50s, '60s, '70s and '80s hearing "Defense wins championships" and they aren't smart enough to adapt their thinking to a changing world.

 

 

 

Not "smart enough?"  Younger guys who grew up in the 90's are smarter?  Interesting perspective.  

 

If it's "all offense" as you say, then this is how you need to beat the Bengals or the Chiefs and their potent offenses:  You have to slow those offenses down.  And that requires defense.  So even if it's "all offense," defense still wins games.  

 

Leaving special teams aside (sorry, Task), there are two critical battles on a gridiron.  Their offense versus our defense.  Their defense versus our offense.  Each battle is equally important.  If you win both battles, you ought to win the game.  If you win one of two, the game can go either way.  Both defense and offense are equally essential for wins.  

 

So, if I'm Beane or McD, I'm putting a lot of effort into improving both.  In the Cinci game, both squads let us down.  The offense was hampered by the weather, Josh's elbow, and a crap OL.  The defense was hampered by guys not playing, or not playing 100%.   The optimist in me sees us playing better on both sides of the ball this year.  

[JerseyBills]

23 hours ago, Fleezoid said:

 

My point is that the Bills overcame it in their game too. The only difference, the Bills lost the coin toss. Those games are extremely similar other than the overtime. I agree that the Bills offense hasn't performed well enough in the playoffs since that time. I just don't see the Chiefs Patriots game being a good example when the Bills did the same thing. 

Or Bass could have simply squib kicked it and they would have 2 plays. 1 being a hail mary or a bunch of laterals.  Not blaming Bass, I heard the explanation about communication issues but that's just inexcusable 

Edited July 1, 2023 by JerseyBills

[LABILLBACKER]

21 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Or Bass could have simply squib kicked it and they would have 2 plays. 1 being a hail mary or a bunch of laterals.  Not blaming Bass, I heard the explanation about communication issues but that's just inexcusable 

The butchered non squib/pop kick will always 100% be on McDermott. He's the fricken HC. Take your ST out on the field and tell them what to do. Don't "hope" a lackey tells Farwell who in turn tells Bass something else.  Pop that kick up inside the 10 and the games over.