Playoff offense is just as much an issue as defense

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

17 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

100% agree.

 

McDemott failed to realize that was the most critical play / call of his coaching career so far. He should have had 100% control of what was going on. It’s okay to use assistant coaches but he needed to have oversight of the entire operation on that sequence. 

waste 7 seconds on one penalty?

 

 That is a bit too optimistic. They completed two plays in 10 seconds. 
 

I agree they should have held on both plays or at least the first. Don’t recall if there is an additional penalty for the second consecutive holding. 
 

Either way the touchback was rendered useless strategy because they decided not to hold on the next two plays. 

 

There's been a rule for a few years now to make it impossible to kill the clock by fouling. 

 

ARTICLE 3. INTENTIONAL FOULS TO MANIPULATE GAME CLOCK

A team may not commit multiple fouls during the same down in an attempt to manipulate the game clock.

Penalty: For multiple fouls to run off time from the game clock: Loss of 15 yards, and the game clock will be reset to where it was at the snap. After the penalty is enforced, the game clock will start on the next snap.

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

6 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

There's been a rule for a few years now to make it impossible to kill the clock by fouling. 

 

ARTICLE 3. INTENTIONAL FOULS TO MANIPULATE GAME CLOCK

A team may not commit multiple fouls during the same down in an attempt to manipulate the game clock.

Penalty: For multiple fouls to run off time from the game clock: Loss of 15 yards, and the game clock will be reset to where it was at the snap. After the penalty is enforced, the game clock will start on the next snap.

 

 

That makes sense.
 

so they could have in theory mugged the hell out of at least one chief player each play it sounds like according to this rule and not been penalized. 
 

just not two or more. 

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

20 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

That makes sense.
 

so they could have in theory mugged the hell out of at least one chief player each play it sounds like according to this rule and not been penalized. 
 

just not two or more. 

 

Yea, theoretically we could have had Edmunds tackle Kelce at the LOS. Taking a pretty big risk though if another player commits a penalty organically you're giving up 15 yards and no time off the clock. 

[90sBills]

3 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Ya that too. Should have pressed and held everyWR and Kelce. Rushed 3 and had everyone else play off. So many simple variations could have been much better vs what they ended up doing

Hindsight is always 20/20 isn’t it?

5 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

9 out of the last 10 Super Bowl winners had a top 10 scoring defense.

Definitely need a decent defense to win. Scoring defense can’t be relied on. Give me top 10 overall defense any day. 

[90sBills]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

which game was this last year?

I think he’s talking about the regular season game against KC where they marched down and scored a fg before halftime with about the same time as the 13sec game. 
 

Just shows it’s never over until the clock strikes 0 against these guys. They’re too good. 

[CookieG]

On 6/30/2023 at 10:22 PM, mjt328 said:

Both the offense and defense have played a role in our playoff losses the last 3 years.

 

The difference between the two... is that we've invested so much draft capitol and cap space into the defense, loaded it up with a half-dozen All-Pro and Pro-Bowl talents (Tre White, Matt Milano, Jordan Poyer, Micah Hyde, Von Miller, Tremaine Edmunds) and the team was STILL totally helpless in stopping Patrick Mahomes or Joe Burrow at any point during those three postseason losses.  This unit has been pretty much maxed out in talent, and it has meant absolutely nothing.  The Chiefs and Bengals moved the ball at will.

 

Our struggles on offense can usually be attributed to weak positions where the team just hasn't been able to find an answer.  This side of the ball is pretty much just Josh Allen, Stefon Diggs, and not much else that scares opponents.  When another weapon other than Diggs actually shows up (such as Gabe Davis in the 2021 divisional game), the offense does great.  When the O-Line actually protects Josh Allen, the offense does great.

 

Excepting the 13 second game, the Bills playoff losses had a big common factor (besides the D not always showing up)...it was protecting Josh.

 

Against the Texans, he was sacked 3 times and hit at least 10 times. 

Against the Chiefs in 2020, he was sacked 4 times and hit 10 times.

Against the Bengals, he was only sacked once, but hit 9 times...and pressured all day long.

 

It isn't a coincidence that in 2021, when the Oline was protecting better, he was hit 3 times in 2 playoff games...and they averaged over 40 points in the playoffs.

 

This isn't unique to the Bills.  In 2020, the Chiefs Oline, older and battered, was exposed by the Bucs in the SB.  Mahomes was sacked 3 times and hit 9 times.

 

In 2022, with a rebuilt Oline, the Chiefs didn't allow a single sack from one of the best defenses in recent history, a D that had 70 sacks for the season.

 

It never ceases to amaze me that people insist on using the most valuable draft and FA'cy on having people who can get to the QB...but at the same time, believe that you can get anyone to keep the other team's pass rushers off your QB.

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

That makes sense.
 

so they could have in theory mugged the hell out of at least one chief player each play it sounds like according to this rule and not been penalized. 
 

just not two or more. 

That is correct.  Choose a player, probably Kelce to hold and double team Hill. That way you still force a one play mini hail mary. We did neither on top of guarding the sidelines when you know Andy has all his timeouts. But again both defensive plays are moot if you force them to fair catch the kickoff at the 10 or 15. Sean did none of that.  

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

1 minute ago, LABILLBACKER said:

That is correct.  Choose a player, probably Kelce to hold and double team Hill. That way you still force a one play mini hail mary. We did neither on top of guarding the sidelines when you know Andy has all his timeouts. But again both defensive plays are moot if you force them to fair catch the kickoff at the 10 or 15. Sean did none of that.  

You should be a head coach. You Seem to know all the answers. I mean I'm sure you'd probably do a better job than Sean McDermott, am I right?

Edited July 3, 2023 by DaBillsFanSince1973

[LABILLBACKER]

10 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

You should be a head coach. You Seem to know all the answers. I mean I'm sure you'd probably do a better job than Sean McDermott, am I right?

I wouldn't have botched that kickoff call. You probably would've 73.

[newcam2012]

4 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

#1. Leave religion out of this yes? 

#2 It is a business. things are said for many different things we will never understand

#3 Other than saying "that game was on me" Rarely does a coach apologize to a team for much.

#4 McD did apologize once on a 4th and 1 decision.

#5 McD got us to a playoff game with a HORRIBLE team. That should tell you something....

#6 The only thing that baffles me is your lack of knowledge on this topic. This extension was long in the works and HC extensions never mean they cannot or will not be let go the following year. We will never no the exact terms in HC extensions. 

 

Lastly in my humble opinion? There is no other HC that has as good of character as McD does.

 

get over it. 

It's not just 13 seconds that McD has failed in. Of course, that's arguably the worst coaching debacle in NFL history. 

 

It's the collaborative effect of McD's terrible coaching in the playoffs. This fan is tired of seeing a Bills team get out coached, out schemed, and out prepared. It's a consistent and constant theme cone playoff time. It's hard not not to come to that conclusion once you look at things objectively. 

 

The things are going to get better, the he's young and going to learn and grow, and all the other excuses are getting tiresome. 

 

Time to move on! There's not a lot to lose...

[PrimeTime101]

24 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

It's not just 13 seconds that McD has failed in. Of course, that's arguably the worst coaching debacle in NFL history. 

 

It's the collaborative effect of McD's terrible coaching in the playoffs. This fan is tired of seeing a Bills team get out coached, out schemed, and out prepared. It's a consistent and constant theme cone playoff time. It's hard not not to come to that conclusion once you look at things objectively. 

 

The things are going to get better, the he's young and going to learn and grow, and all the other excuses are getting tiresome. 

 

Time to move on! There's not a lot to lose...

The amount of games THIS TEAM has out coached is stupid good. You keep following up one bad narrative after another. When you find out you are in a 6' hole? Try to climb out instead of digging deeper. 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

1 hour ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I wouldn't have botched that kickoff call. You probably would've 73.

Absolutely I would have because, well, I'm no head coach. Maybe you and a few others from this thread should line up for the job.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

On 6/30/2023 at 1:17 PM, Airseven said:

Bottom line is that Allen imploded against the Texans (‘19) and Chiefs (‘20) and was ineffective against the Dolphins and Bengals (‘22). He was terrific in ‘21, but McDermott wasted it. It’s frustrating how competitive the Bills have become but yet the end result continues to be disastrous somehow.

 

Imploded?  Down 3, 1:, no timeouts he drove the team down for the tying FG.  If not for a BS penalty on cody ford, buffalo is kicking to win that game from 53 yards out.  I don't love Haushkas chances on a long FG (he was money in the game) there but the chances of winning there vs. punting is pretty huge. And if not for a knox missed block we probably have a first down inside 30 with a kick to win. 

 

Not to mention that other BS call where buffalo recovered the kickoff in the end zone and Houston got the ball anyway.  He intended to give himself up... but didn't signal it in any way!  You call other players for the most procedural of procedural penalties, but for something like that they needed to make a judgement?  Its garbage.  

[Rocbillsfan1]

OP is way to far in the weeds the problem has been the playoff gameplanning/adjustments and coaching. Plain and simple. We gave the coaches more excuses when Allen was young, had banged up wrs against KC first time around. Now it’s pretty obvious with this trend that all the playoff loses have been on McDermott not just the offense or defense. He’s Marv Levy 2.0. 

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

Absolutely I would have because, well, I'm no head coach. Maybe you and a few others from this thread should line up for the job.

Dude you gotta step up your sarcasm game.  But your support of Sean is both commendable and adorable. 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

1 minute ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Dude you gotta step up your sarcasm game.  But your support of Sean is both commendable and adorable. 

What's adorable is how much you think you know about coaching an NFL football team. Like I said before maybe you should line up for the job since you know so much. As far as Sean McDermott, yes I support him as the head coach of the Buffalo Bills. Just because he hasn't met your aspirations for a Super bowl appearance doesn't mean it won't happen. I personally haven't given up on him, yet. 

[LABILLBACKER]

8 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

What's adorable is how much you think you know about coaching an NFL football team. Like I said before maybe you should line up for the job since you know so much. As far as Sean McDermott, yes I support him as the head coach of the Buffalo Bills. Just because he hasn't met your aspirations for a Super bowl appearance doesn't mean it won't happen. I personally haven't given up on him, yet. 

Good for you. This may come as a shock to you but even fans have both the intelligence and capacity to comment (or critique) a player, coach or even an organization.  It doesn't mean we don't support them.  Your last word "yet" speaks volumes.  

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

The amount of games THIS TEAM has out coached is stupid good. You keep following up one bad narrative after another. When you find out you are in a 6' hole? Try to climb out instead of digging deeper. 

Just look at the playoff games. McD and his coaching staff has not been good. I'll leave it at that. 

[newcam2012]

33 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

What's adorable is how much you think you know about coaching an NFL football team. Like I said before maybe you should line up for the job since you know so much. As far as Sean McDermott, yes I support him as the head coach of the Buffalo Bills. Just because he hasn't met your aspirations for a Super bowl appearance doesn't mean it won't happen. I personally haven't given up on him, yet. 

Besides optimism what makes you think McD can get the team over the hump? 

 

Do you think he has great game plans? Has excellent schemes? Game time adjustments? Time management? An Xs and Os guy? A great motivator? Creative offensively and or defensively? 

 

Just wondering why so many really think McD can lead this team to a SB. 

 

Of course it's all speculation. Would welcome all comments for and against McD. 

 

Obviously, you know where I stand. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 6/30/2023 at 7:42 PM, 78thealltimegreat said:

  The Bills offenses problem is very much like a team built around three point shooting in basketball… it’s amazing when shots go in but when shots don’t go down do you have another way to generate points and to be honest in many ways they haven’t. 
  They’ve clearly made an off season commitment to give the O more ways to beat you simply by lining up in 12 and 13 personnel would shock many people.  

This is a perfect analogy. 

[Rigotz]

On 6/30/2023 at 12:26 PM, Mikie2times said:

2019 =Our offense scored 19 points in a loss to Houston including 6 points in the second half

2020 =Our offense puts up 9 points in the final 4 minutes to make a 38-15 score look respectable, but anybody watching that game knew we sputtered 

2022 =Our offense puts up 10 points against the Bengals at home

 

 

 

I isolated the point you're trying to make here because it's dressed up in a bunch of other BS.

 

Comparing the 2019 and 2020 Offense to 2022 but disregarding 2021 is kind of a weird thing to do.

In 2019 and 2020 we had completely different coaches and Josh wasn't the version he is now. We also had different receivers.

 

Seems odd to ignore the one season where we dominated on Offense in a knockout round... unless you're creating a narrative that doesn't exist.

[snamsnoops]

1 hour ago, Rocbillsfan1 said:

OP is way to far in the weeds the problem has been the playoff gameplanning/adjustments and coaching. Plain and simple. We gave the coaches more excuses when Allen was young, had banged up wrs against KC first time around. Now it’s pretty obvious with this trend that all the playoff loses have been on McDermott not just the offense or defense. He’s Marv Levy 2.0. 

So he is taking us to another 4 straight SB's... I'm ok with this I guess... I mean, seeing he is 2.0 version (guessing this is and upgraded version, seeing he is 2.0?) he should be able to win 1 or 2 SB's this time around... AMIRIGHT?!

[Mikie2times]

27 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

 

I isolated the point you're trying to make here because it's dressed up in a bunch of other BS.

 

Comparing the 2019 and 2020 Offense to 2022 but disregarding 2021 is kind of a weird thing to do.

In 2019 and 2020 we had completely different coaches and Josh wasn't the version he is now. We also had different receivers.

 

Seems odd to ignore the one season where we dominated on Offense in a knockout round... unless you're creating a narrative that doesn't exist.

The thread is about perceptions clouding judgement. The narrative doesn't exist because of 2021. It's made our fanbase think that we have a good playoff offense. It is inconsistent at best.

 

Just reading your post is a perfect microcosm of that. 

 

Different coaches the other years (same is true for 2022) different Josh (same is true for 2022). Further, in what way has Josh shown he is better than 2020 or even 2019? Why do you think you saw "playoff Josh" in 2021 more than what you saw the rest of the years? We have no consistency on offense with the style of play we showed. It's been a running theme in the playoffs for all but one year. 

 

People are so butt hurt over 13 seconds and enamored with how bad the defense has been, if they actually watched what happened they would see pretty average offensive performances in all but one year. Bad enough to cost us the game. They only didn't see that because the defense overshadowed it. 

[PrimeTime101]

1 hour ago, newcam2012 said:

Just look at the playoff games. McD and his coaching staff has not been good. I'll leave it at that. 

RIGHT. McD didnt outcoach NE? TWICE? MIAMI? Stop it...

[90sBills]

37 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

The thread is about perceptions clouding judgement. The narrative doesn't exist because of 2021. It's made our fanbase think that we have a good playoff offense. It is inconsistent at best.

 

Further, in what way has Josh shown he is better than 2020 or even 2019? Why do you think you saw "playoff Josh" in 2021 more than what you saw the rest of the years?  

You’re right. People use that game as the norm when it really was the max potential of Allen and the offense. 

[LABILLBACKER]

On 6/30/2023 at 10:31 AM, Gregg said:

If they get better production from the lines on both sides of the ball, then the Bills will have a great chance to win a championship. If it's more of the same from these past few seasons, then nothing will change, and it will most likely be another playoff disappointment.

And there lies the answer to this thread.  Up until this FA season,  McB have neglected upgrading the OL for 5 years. This causes Josh to become more hero ball (risk intrinsic) in his style. The DL on the other hand seems to handle things against regular season opponents,  then fades once the high leverage games (qbs) begin.  Obviously all the defensive injuries last season were absolutely brutal.  We've had both top 10 offenses & defenses during this Allen era.  But once the playoffs begin we drift into poor execution/motivation/coaching etc.  I don't have the answer to why this happens? It's super frustrating to see us go 10-13 wins every year then struggle in the divisional round. I would hope McB continue to realize Josh and the offense is the key! Majority assets must be directed there in the upcoming years.  I can live with an opportunistic D not ranked top 10.  And many a SB winner has not had a dominant D.

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

RIGHT. McD didnt outcoach NE? TWICE? MIAMI? Stop it...

The same NE team that fielded Matt Jones. Come on man that screams desperation. 

 

Miami out coached Buffalo last year in the playoffs. Their defense created big turnovers that lead to big points. They almost beat the Bills with a 3rd string QB on the road. 

 

You got to be kidding me that you think McD was a difference maker in those games. 

 

Stop digging yourself a bigger hole trying to defend McD's playoff record, coaching, game planning, and execution.

 

Replay the last 3 year's of the Bills playoff games. Have you seen improvements? It should give you a nice picture of why McD is likely not the guy. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by newcam2012

[newcam2012]

25 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

And there lies the answer to this thread.  Up until this FA season,  McB have neglected upgrading the OL for 5 years. This causes Josh to become more hero ball (risk intrinsic) in his style. The DL on the other hand seems to handle things against regular season opponents,  then fades once the high leverage games (qbs) begin.  Obviously all the defensive injuries last season were absolutely brutal.  We've had both top 10 offenses & defenses during this Allen era.  But once the playoffs begin we drift into poor execution/motivation/coaching etc.  I don't have the answer to why this happens? It's super frustrating to see us go 10-13 wins every year then struggle in the divisional round. I would hope McB continue to realize Josh and the offense is the key! Majority assets must be directed there in the upcoming years.  I can live with an opportunistic D not ranked top 10.  And many a SB winner has not had a dominant D.

Really excellent post! Very good and honest read. 

 

I'd add something has to change because what the organization is doing just isn't effective enough in the playoffs. 

 

Will be interesting to see if the new additions and McD calling the D are enough. 

[LABILLBACKER]

18 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Really excellent post! Very good and honest read. 

 

I'd add something has to change because what the organization is doing just isn't effective enough in the playoffs. 

 

Will be interesting to see if the new additions and McD calling the D are enough. 

McD is a very polarizing HC. There's a ton to like about him but also obvious coaching flaws that might continue to keep us "coming up short".  I'll just throw out last season as a cluster F of drama, emotional stress and injuries the team couldn't recover from.  The previous playoff exits had their own story.  I think the team will miss Daboll more than they let on. Hopefully KD can create an offensive "identity" that we lacked last season. I was impressed that McB finally put more emphasis on the O.  It's probably the only way we're winning a SB.  I'm going to try and take a subatical on sparing with hard core McD supporters. They'll have to evaluate him as will Terry if divisional loses continue. I'm still rooting he proves me wrong. 

[Ayjent]

On 7/3/2023 at 11:33 AM, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

which game was this last year?

They gave up a fg at end of half vs chiefs regular season and it was deja vu

[Ayjent]

On 7/3/2023 at 11:54 AM, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

There's been a rule for a few years now to make it impossible to kill the clock by fouling. 

 

ARTICLE 3. INTENTIONAL FOULS TO MANIPULATE GAME CLOCK

A team may not commit multiple fouls during the same down in an attempt to manipulate the game clock.

Penalty: For multiple fouls to run off time from the game clock: Loss of 15 yards, and the game clock will be reset to where it was at the snap. After the penalty is enforced, the game clock will start on the next snap.

 

 

And that isnt getting called unless it is blatant and egregious.  To my knowledge that rule hasn't ever been enforced in a game. Keeping it "sticky" worked for Chiefs the year before.  

 

You do what you can to make yards and time your friend in that situation.  Letting them get off two easy completions is the absolutely what you dont want. I will never understand thinking a team is going to go to the house on you with :13 so play way off and let them move at will when all they need is a fg. 

[T master]

I think that they have made great strides in adding in the right pieces on both sides of the ball where they had deficiency's . They got rid of some they thought would step up but didn't & Dorcey i feel will be better this year .

 

The run game was not utilized very well but with the additions this year i think it will be MUCH better ! Bringing in Floyd along with the maturation of Rosseau that side of the ball with Von and Hyde coming back as long as they can stay healthy will be Bad A** !! 

 

Von, Rosseau, Hyde, Poyer, Tre, Phillips, Jones all healthy + then the addition of Poona Ford up front & Rapp in some situations i think this D will be even better than it was added to that the aggressive play calling of McD on D oh man i can't wait to see it come together .

 

This roster screams SB !! 

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, T master said:

I think that they have made great strides in adding in the right pieces on both sides of the ball where they had deficiency's . They got rid of some they thought would step up but didn't & Dorcey i feel will be better this year .

 

The run game was not utilized very well but with the additions this year i think it will be MUCH better ! Bringing in Floyd along with the maturation of Rosseau that side of the ball with Von and Hyde coming back as long as they can stay healthy will be Bad A** !! 

 

Von, Rosseau, Hyde, Poyer, Tre, Phillips, Jones all healthy + then the addition of Poona Ford up front & Rapp in some situations i think this D will be even better than it was added to that the aggressive play calling of McD on D oh man i can't wait to see it come together .

 

This roster screams SB !! 

 

 

The Bills addressed some personnel problems in the off season, notably the offensive line.  The expectation is better protection for Allen and some push in the running game along with adding some physical RB's to the group.  The addition of Kincaid should eventually make the offense much more difficult to defend.  I'm not so sure the WR group was upgraded much but word is the Bills are still in the running for Hopkins as long as it doesn't break the bank.  Floyd and Rapp are good adds on defense and a healthy group of last year's core, minus Edmunds, should do well.

 

What concerns me is that Miami and New York have also addressed some areas and while the Bills look to be better the division rivals have probably closed the gap.  

[pennstate10]

On 7/3/2023 at 9:24 PM, LABILLBACKER said:

McD is a very polarizing HC. There's a ton to like about him but also obvious coaching flaws that might continue to keep us "coming up short".  I'll just throw out last season as a cluster F of drama, emotional stress and injuries the team couldn't recover from.  The previous playoff exits had their own story.  I think the team will miss Daboll more than they let on. Hopefully KD can create an offensive "identity" that we lacked last season. I was impressed that McB finally put more emphasis on the O.  It's probably the only way we're winning a SB.  I'm going to try and take a subatical on sparing with hard core McD supporters. They'll have to evaluate him as will Terry if divisional loses continue. I'm still rooting he proves me wrong. 

"McD is a very polarizing HC."

 

I find statement like this to be absolutely stunning.

 

McD is the best Bills coach this century.  Full stop.  End of story.

 

McD  62-35 (.639); 5 of 6 season in playoffs.

 

All other Bills coaches since 2000  102/169 (.377); 0 of 17 seasons in playoffs.

 

How is this even a debate??

 

Yes, of course, McD has had Josh Allen.  But how much of Allens success is due to McD leadership and coaching?  This is, of course, an unknowable question.  But realize that Allen has never had a remarkably successful season except as a Buffalo Bill.  His record at Wyoming was 16-12.  Allen was regarded as a raw talent, and  didnt become a superior QB until his Buffalo  Bills seasons.  How much of his success was due to his own hard work, his QB coaches (including Dorsey btw), his OC, and his HC is impossible to know.

 

But it is inarguable that McD is the best Bills coach of this century.

[GoBills808]

32 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

"McD is a very polarizing HC."

 

I find statement like this to be absolutely stunning.

 

McD is the best Bills coach this century.  Full stop.  End of story.

 

McD  62-35 (.639); 5 of 6 season in playoffs.

 

All other Bills coaches since 2000  102/169 (.377); 0 of 17 seasons in playoffs.

 

How is this even a debate??

 

Yes, of course, McD has had Josh Allen.  But how much of Allens success is due to McD leadership and coaching?  This is, of course, an unknowable question.  But realize that Allen has never had a remarkably successful season except as a Buffalo Bill.  His record at Wyoming was 16-12.  Allen was regarded as a raw talent, and  didnt become a superior QB until his Buffalo  Bills seasons.  How much of his success was due to his own hard work, his QB coaches (including Dorsey btw), his OC, and his HC is impossible to know.

 

But it is inarguable that McD is the best Bills coach of this century.

It is less likely that Allen's success is due to former defensive coordinator Sean McDermott's coaching than it is McDermott's 'best coach this century' title is due to Allen imo

[pennstate10]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

It is less likely that Allen's success is due to former defensive coordinator Sean McDermott's coaching than it is McDermott's 'best coach this century' title is due to Allen imo

 

I specifically phrased this as: 

 

"But how much of Allens success is due to McD leadership and coaching?"

 

Yes, of course, McD isnt coaching Allen's throwing mechanics, and the reciever's route trees.

 

But he is the team LEADER.  He sets the tone.  He sets practice and meeting parameters, he picks (with input from GM) the coaches.  He is the one ultimately responsible for success or failure.  Not Allen.

 

If the Bills fail to win an AFC championship over the next 3 years, who gets fired?  Allen?  Nope, it'll be McD.  Because he's the leader responsible for success or failure.

[GoBills808]

Just now, pennstate10 said:

 

I specifically phrased this as: 

 

"But how much of Allens success is due to McD leadership and coaching?"

 

Yes, of course, McD isnt coaching Allen's throwing mechanics, and the reciever's route trees.

 

But he is the team LEADER.  He sets the tone.  He sets practice and meeting parameters, he picks (with input from GM) the coaches.  He is the one ultimately responsible for success or failure.  Not Allen.

 

If the Bills fail to win an AFC championship over the next 3 years, who gets fired?  Allen?  Nope, it'll be McD.  Because he's the leader responsible for success or failure.

I dispute this

 

Allen is significantly more responsible for the Bills success than McDermott

similarly McDermott will be fired before Allen because he's more replaceable, not because he's singularly responsible for victory or defeat

 

[Mikie2times]

15 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I dispute this

 

Allen is significantly more responsible for the Bills success than McDermott

similarly McDermott will be fired before Allen because he's more replaceable, not because he's singularly responsible for victory or defeat

 

I think we are seeing about how much a coach can do without a star QB with what we have seen with BB these last few years. Which IMO is very similar to what we saw from McDermott his first year. Without that QB, a coach can be good enough to get you into to the playoffs. But that's about the extent of it. So in my mind I agree that it's Allen being more valuable in a landslide.

 

As far as how much the coach ultimately matters when you have the great QB? Maybe it's even more important at that point. Who knows. It's a different angle to evaluate it under. I think most agree Andy Reid and Bill Belichick pass that test when  maybe they weren't so good at passing other tests. While Bud Grant and Marv Levy failed that test but excelled in others.    

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

I think we are seeing about how much a coach can do without a star QB with what we have seen with BB these last few years. Which IMO is very similar to what we saw from McDermott his first year. Without that QB, a coach can be good enough to get you into to the playoffs. But that's about the extent of it. So in my mind I agree that it's Allen being more valuable in a landslide.

 

As far as how much the coach ultimately matters when you have the great QB? Maybe it's even more important at that point. Who knows. It's a different angle to evaluate it under. I think most agree Andy Reid and Bill Belichick pass that test when  maybe they weren't so good at passing other tests. While Bud Grant and Marv Levy failed that test but excelled in others.    

For coaches I think it's almost impossible to be great w out a good QB. The league is too dependent on pass offenses. I believe we are seeing that w BB as you say although I would attribute a lot more of his success to Brady than others. Reid I think has credible case as GOAT HC as it stands imo

 

BUT I think a great QB can elevate a coach more than the reverse is true, and that's why the one is always more important than the other

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

For coaches I think it's almost impossible to be great w out a good QB. The league is too dependent on pass offenses. I believe we are seeing that w BB as you say although I would attribute a lot more of his success to Brady than others. Reid I think has credible case as GOAT HC as it stands imo

 

BUT I think a great QB can elevate a coach more than the reverse is true, and that's why the one is always more important than the other

A great coach can raise your floor. A great QB can raise your floor and ceiling. That’s how I’ve always seen it.