Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Tiberius]

8 hours ago, Buffarukus said:

 

young people cannot buy a house. they will never pay back their student debt which is scheduled to start again very soon. they are being told that they must buy the most expensive vehicles if they wish to continue to have free transit. prices so you can't go out. small buisness can't survive.  anyone that was working scraping together week to week BEFORE all this is completely bankrupt now and your asked if you believe this? 

 

yes....... i believe what's right in front of me.

And some people are making a killing selling their homes. Two sides to things 

[sherpa]

27 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

You criticized UNICEF earlier. I am am getting ready to send in a donation to help out. Was your criticism legit or were you just emotionally acting out? 

 

If they are bad, I'll donate somewhere else 

Wow 

 

I'm not sure what their efficiency is in this new tragedy, but this link points out direct ways to donate regarding the issue:

 

https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/9-highly-rated-charities-donate-safely-to-help-ukraine

 

 

[John Adams]

8 hours ago, Buffarukus said:

 

young people cannot buy a house. they will never pay back their student debt which is scheduled to start again very soon. they are being told that they must buy the most expensive vehicles if they wish to continue to have free transit. prices so you can't go out. small buisness can't survive.  anyone that was working scraping together week to week BEFORE all this is completely bankrupt now and your asked if you believe this? 

 

yes....... i believe what's right in front of me.

 

Define young. 

 

I bought my first (and so far only) house at age 27. Pretty average for my friend group. No one helped me with the down payment and it needed a lot of work that in the first round of repairs over 5 years, we did ourselves or with help from some friends who we paid back helping them. 

 

In my experience, most young people today want a new maintenance free home and those cost about 2x to 3x what an older "starter home" might cost. Yes inflation sucks but so do expectations. 

Edited March 14, 2022 by John Adams

[BillsFanNC]

 

[Demongyz]

On 3/12/2022 at 7:10 AM, Motorin' said:

 

I agree that no one is invading Texas anytime soon. Would be stupid as hell. 

 

But I think you're a seriously underestimating the Ukrainians. They've been at war with Russia for the last 8 years. 

 

 

The Battle of Kyiv is starting soon:

https://kyivindependent.com/national/russia-concentrates-military-power-for-kyiv-assault/

Yeah, you are probably right.  I have no idea of their capabilities or strategy, I just know you don't mess with Texas.

[Tiberius]

Mass graves return in war-torn cities

Heavy Russian bombardments have forced residents of some Ukrainian towns and cities to bury dead civilians in makeshift mass graves - and many victims have not been identified.

"We can't bury [the victims] in private graves, as those are outside the city and the perimeter is controlled by Russian troops," Mariupol's deputy mayor Serhiy Orlov told the BBC.

For nearly two weeks Mariupol, a strategic port city, has been battered daily by Russian rockets and shells. The thousands of residents, short of food and water, are hiding in cellars.

In Bucha, a suburb of Kyiv captured by the Russians, 67 bodies were buried in a trench, a local MP told the BBC. A doctor posted video of the burial on Facebook.

And besieged Chernihiv in the north is also using a temporary cemetery, as the fighting has made the main one inaccessible.

The unceremonious burials are shocking for Ukrainians who expect Christian rites, and who have bitter memories of World War Two massacres.

Read further details on this story in full here.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60717902

[Big Blitz]

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky early Monday warned that it's "only a matter of time" before Russian missiles strike a NATO country, amid reports that Russia's invading forces had escalated airstrikes on western Ukraine over Sunday night.

 

https://www.axios.com/russia-intensifieswestern-ukraine-attacks-0304ffe0-da64-4fdf-b6cc-cd4154cb20cc.html

 

 

Ok.

[Warcodered]

 

[Big Blitz]

Yep.  Global freaking distraction that is getting innocent people killed

 

 

 

 

[Motorin']

5 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

Yep.  Global freaking distraction that is getting innocent people killed

 

 

 

 

 

Here's three options: 1. The war in Ukraine was globally planned by the US government in cahoots with their globalist overlords to distract from x, y and Covid 19...

 

2. Putin alone is responsible for the decision to invade Ukraine because he thought no one would standup to him and Ukraine would just roll over. 

 

3. Neither of these articulate the truth, the truth is: ________________________.

[Big Blitz]

Just wait till an actual lunatic pi***d off about the West canceling his country gets control of Russia's nukes.  It's impossible to fathom I know MAD and all that....

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

On 3/13/2022 at 8:08 PM, Big Blitz said:

When Mitt Romney is accusing ... anyone of treason.....you know your entire U.S. government is compromised.  

 

Your *leaders* are not in control. 

 

 

i guess ol Mitt needs to go after Nuland too, who testified to Congress there are us funded biolabs in Ukraine … like Tulsi said. 🤔 

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

5 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

Here's three options: 1. The war in Ukraine was globally planned by the US government in cahoots with their globalist overlords to distract from x, y and Covid 19...

 

2. Putin alone is responsible for the decision to invade Ukraine because he thought no one would standup to him and Ukraine would just roll over. 

 

3. Neither of these articulate the truth, the truth is: ________________________.

3- impossible to know, everyone has their corrupt lairs backstopped by their respective propaganda machines. 
 

Putin is a savage, not so sure they all aren’t though. 

[ALF]

On 2/22/2022 at 3:19 PM, sherpa said:

 

 I flew hundreds of sorties off the USS Kitty Hawk, and most of that in the South China Sea, which you mentioned earlier as Biden's "new" bold deployment.

Over three hundred landings on carriers.

 

 

The last detail for the mighty Kitty Hawk. The DE I was on had escort duty with her off the coast of Nam.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/14/asia/aircraft-carrier-kitty-hawk-scrapping-history-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

[Coffeesforclosers]

14 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

Here's three options: 1. The war in Ukraine was globally planned by the US government in cahoots with their globalist overlords to distract from x, y and Covid 19...

 

2. Putin alone is responsible for the decision to invade Ukraine because he thought no one would standup to him and Ukraine would just roll over. 

 

3. Neither of these articulate the truth, the truth is: ________________________.

 

Let me fill in the line. "The truth is whatever Twitter tells me it is, because I do my own research consisting of people I agree with on Twitter".

[BillStime]

idiots 

[Tiberius]

Washington, DC (CNN)Russia has asked China for military support, including drones, as well as economic assistance for its unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, according to conversations CNN had with two US officials.

The requests came after the invasion, one of the officials said. That official declined to detail the Chinese reaction but indicated that the Chinese had responded. Both the Chinese and Russian governments publicly denied that the request happened.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/13/politics/jake-sullivan-meeting-chinese-counterpart-ukraine/index.html

 

Drones. Jake Sullivan had a seven hour meeting yesterday. I hope we are sending in our drones, blast the Russian army! 

 

 

 

----

Leaders from three European countries will travel to Kyiv to meet with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and Ukrainian Prime Minister Denis Shmyhal on Tuesday, according to the Polish government.

In a statement Tuesday, the Polish Prime Minister's office said Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki, deputy Prime Minister Jarosław Kaczyński, Czech Prime Minister Petr Fiala and Slovenian Prime Minister Janez Janša would visit the Ukrainian capital as representatives of the European Council.

“The visit is organized in consultation with the President of the European Council Charles Michel and the President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen,” the statement said.
“The purpose of the visit is to confirm the unequivocal support of the entire European Union for the sovereignty and independence of Ukraine. The aim of this visit is also to present a broad package of support for Ukraine and Ukrainians."

 

Nice move! 

[All_Pro_Bills]

3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Washington, DC (CNN)Russia has asked China for military support, including drones, as well as economic assistance for its unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, according to conversations CNN had with two US officials.

The requests came after the invasion, one of the officials said. That official declined to detail the Chinese reaction but indicated that the Chinese had responded. Both the Chinese and Russian governments publicly denied that the request happened.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/13/politics/jake-sullivan-meeting-chinese-counterpart-ukraine/index.html

 

Drones. Jake Sullivan had a seven hour meeting yesterday. I hope we are sending in our drones, blast the Russian army! 

China has called the US accusations baseless and stated "Some forces have kept smearing China on the Ukraine issue… and fabricated all sorts of disinformation".

 

So somebody is lying. 

[SoCal Deek]

I heard a military pundit on the radio here in SoCal yesterday and he made a ton of sense. His assessment was that Putin saw an opening and he took it. He’s approaching 70 years old and he wants a legacy of putting Mother Russia back together before he leaves the stage. He’s not immortal. He watched the US exit Afghanistan and figured, rightly so, that we had no appetite for another foreign conflict. So…he went for it. Sure seems like an accurate take to me.

[Tiberius]

5 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

China has called the US accusations baseless and stated "Some forces have kept smearing China on the Ukraine issue… and fabricated all sorts of disinformation".

 

So somebody is lying. 

Well, someone wants to attack Taiwan and is watching this situation closely 

[All_Pro_Bills]

32 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Well, someone wants to attack Taiwan and is watching this situation closely 

Well, I can't say with 100% certainty who is lying and who isn't because I have no access to intelligence and security information and data.  And I suspect neither do you.  So how do you know for certain who is telling the truth?  It ultimately comes down to what you believe and not what you know.  That's my point here.  Other than I evaluate the validity of anything and everything said by all the players in this conflict with skepticism.  

[Tiberius]

8 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Well, I can't say with 100% certainty who is lying and who isn't because I have no access to intelligence and security information and data.  And I suspect neither do you.  So how do you know for certain who is telling the truth?  It ultimately comes down to what you believe and not what you know.  That's my point here.  Other than I evaluate the validity of anything and everything said by all the players in this conflict with skepticism.  

Oh, you just want to throw doubt on our side. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

1 hour ago, BillStime said:

idiots 

 

 

All this talk of "interests", does anybody that uses this word have a clue what they are talking about?  It's a buzzword, it's jargon, it's a BS term people repeat to sound smart.

 

Russia's an authoritarian state and Tsar Vladimir the Insane decides what it does. In theory. Whether his people follow the orders, or his government executes them effectively, or whether his enemies decide to kick him square in the balls, that's another thing entirely.

 

"Russia" does not have "interests".  People in power in Russia have made choices based on information, and mannnny of them were very, very wrong.

 

But I guess Michael Flynn thinks it's not in America's "interest" to get Russia thinking "This is what happens to you if you invade a country we like.  Do you *really* want to invade a country legally allied with?". You know, like Tsar Vladimir the Insane said he would do whenever he wanted to before all this started so he could rebuild the Russian Empire?

 

Gee whiz, I wonder how Flynn conveniently forgot about that.

[Motorin']

24 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Well, I can't say with 100% certainty who is lying and who isn't because I have no access to intelligence and security information and data.  And I suspect neither do you.  So how do you know for certain who is telling the truth?  It ultimately comes down to what you believe and not what you know.  That's my point here.  Other than I evaluate the validity of anything and everything said by all the players in this conflict with skepticism.  

 

It could be a smear campaign. But Russia seems a bit desperate, they are actively recruiting foreign fighters while Russia and China met to sign a pact that their partnership knows "no limits" just weeks before the Ukraine invasion. If I had to guess, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Russia has asked China for support. And China wants to remain "neutral" and they don't like the fact that we can listen to their secure coms...

[All_Pro_Bills]

33 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

It could be a smear campaign. But Russia seems a bit desperate, they are actively recruiting foreign fighters while Russia and China met to sign a pact that their partnership knows "no limits" just weeks before the Ukraine invasion. If I had to guess, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Russia has asked China for support. And China wants to remain "neutral" and they don't like the fact that we can listen to their secure coms...

I have a couple theories but it seems pretty clear there's a lot more going on than the fate of Ukraine.  From China's perspective they probably see Russia as a proxy probing Western responses and actions to aggression.  I think the sanctions, asset freezing, and seizure actions have got them concerned.  Concerned enough to take action and join this conflict?  Doubtful.  But concerned enough to poke around and feel things out.  I don't see any immediate move against Taiwan.  They'd need to pull off a complex amphibious and air attack without having any combat experience at that task.  From Taiwan's perspective the idea would be to sink all their troop carriers in the Straits before they come ashore.  With U.S. support China's move could be a military disaster and a source of embarrassment for a regime which treasures the projection of control and competence.     

Interestingly, though is China suddenly engaging in on again, off again high level discussions with the Saudi's over oil payments in Yuan.  Saudi leadership appears to be unhappy with the Biden administration especially regarding its stance on Iran.  A move to change the payment process for oil would put a major hurt on the Petrodollar system and anyone familiar with that payment system understand the implications.  Something that might be scaring China is the term I saw thrown around regarding sanctions and weaponizing the U.S. dollar and that is "un-hedgeable confiscation risks".  So I expect China's main purpose now is to erode U.S. financial control and dominance rather than taking any actions to engage in military confrontations.

Edited March 15, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[Doc]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I heard a military pundit on the radio here in SoCal yesterday and he made a ton of sense. His assessment was that Putin saw an opening and he took it. He’s approaching 70 years old and he wants a legacy of putting Mother Russia back together before he leaves the stage. He’s not immortal. He watched the US exit Afghanistan and figured, rightly so, that we had no appetite for another foreign conflict. So…he went for it. Sure seems like an accurate take to me.

 

I have no doubt about any of this.  The thing is, instead of cementing his legacy, he doomed it.

[B-Man]

 

[SoCal Deek]

23 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I have no doubt about any of this.  The thing is, instead of cementing his legacy, he doomed it.

That’s the typical Americanized short term view. I’m guessing he’s thinking the long term play. He’s hoping to go down as the man that recaptured traditional Russian territory. This is a legacy play for him…or at least that’s what the pundit was surmising. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

8 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

That’s the typical Americanized short term view. I’m guessing he’s thinking the long term play. He’s hoping to go down as the man that recaptured traditional Russian territory. This is a legacy play for him…or at least that’s what the pundit was surmising. 

 

Makes sense.  

 

He thinks the EU and NATO are all just US puppet states, and that democracies are inherently "weak", whatever that means, and morally corrupt.  But at the same time, his country is being brought to it's knees by resistance in a land they thought would welcome them as liberators.  And while America hasn't committed a single soldier, plane or ship into action with Russian forces.  

 

I'm not really going to by the whole "Putin has a master plan, this all just looks like a trainwreck because that's what he wants us to think" angle.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Coffeesforclosers

[Warcodered]

3 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I heard a military pundit on the radio here in SoCal yesterday and he made a ton of sense. His assessment was that Putin saw an opening and he took it. He’s approaching 70 years old and he wants a legacy of putting Mother Russia back together before he leaves the stage. He’s not immortal. He watched the US exit Afghanistan and figured, rightly so, that we had no appetite for another foreign conflict. So…he went for it. Sure seems like an accurate take to me.

If that's what he thought then he's an idiot, we were never going to directly fight Russia in Ukraine, that's never realistically been on the table.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

9 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Makes sense.  

 

He thinks the EU and NATO are all just US puppet states, and that democracies are inherently "weak", whatever that means, and morally corrupt.  But at the same time, his country is being brought to it's knees by resistance in a land they thought would welcome them as liberators.  And while America hasn't committed a single soldier, plane or ship into action with Russian forces.  

 

I'm not really going to by the whole "Putin has a master plan, this all just looks like a trainwreck because that's what he wants us to think" angle.

I agree but with all due respect yours is  yet another American centric response. Putin doesn’t care how the war looks. He’s trying to swallow up a country. Just like a snake swallows a large rat. It’s ugly going down and looks horrible but once it’s done it’s done and he won’t have to eat again for years. He doesn’t have to worry about media reaction or an election cycle. 

[sherpa]

Putin has been out of touch with reality for quite a while.

His military isn't anywhere near what he thought it would be.

His ability to strike fear is gone, except for the very real threat of nuclear options.

 

A dictator who surrounds himself with people who only tell him what he wants to hear is ultimately ill-informed.

The Russian military has been lying and misleading their leaders for years.

That's what happens when you are underfunded and need to keep your career on track.

 

This has been suspected for years, and now is grossly obvious to the entire world.

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

41 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I agree but with all due respect yours is  yet another American centric response. Putin doesn’t care how the war looks. He’s trying to swallow up a country. Just like a snake swallows a large rat. It’s ugly going down and looks horrible but once it’s done it’s done and he won’t have to eat again for years. He doesn’t have to worry about media reaction or an election cycle. 

 

No doubt, but it's because Putin, in an odd paradox, also lives in an America-centric world.  We're the ones who destroyed the USSR, we're the ones who control the EU, we're the ones who control NATO.  He honestly doesn't think their is a truly independent country between Moscow and the East Coast.  He also honestly thinks every country that was once part of Russia is now led by a tiny elite of American stooges while its people yearn for the Russian Motherland.

 

He can't frame a view of the world without an American boogieman hiding under every bed.  It's like Sherpa said.  He's nuts.  No one is left to tell the Tsar that he's got no clothes on.

[BillsFanNC]

 

[Doc]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

That’s the typical Americanized short term view. I’m guessing he’s thinking the long term play. He’s hoping to go down as the man that recaptured traditional Russian territory. This is a legacy play for him…or at least that’s what the pundit was surmising. 

 

Recapturing territory, but at what cost?  They may win the battle, but lose the war.

 

45 minutes ago, BillsFanNC said:

 

 

Seems like something that could/should have been declared a long time ago.

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

 

This works. Sent a few people.

[Chef Jim]

So it would almost be worth letting Russia have Ukraine.  Add the cost of rebuilding to the sanctions and Russia could be totally *****. 
 

 

Sarcasm folks…..mostly. 

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Recapturing territory, but at what cost?  They may win the battle, but lose the war.

 

Again....Putin is not thinking about the cost. He is playing the long term legacy game here.  They've been fighting over the same patch of desert in the Middle East for centuries. Do any of them worry about the cost? No...that's a short term American perspective. 

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Again....Putin is not thinking about the cost. He is playing the long term legacy game here.  They've been fighting over the same patch of desert in the Middle East for centuries. Do any of them worry about the cost? No...that's a short term American perspective. 

 

He's not getting Ukraine and it will be a thorn in his side until he dies.  He sorely miscalculated how much they wanted to be Russian. 

[SoCal Deek]

13 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

He's not getting Ukraine and it will be a thorn in his side until he dies.  He sorely miscalculated how much they wanted to be Russian. 

Possibly. Keep in mind I’m only restating an opinion/strategy I heard. It remains to be seen if this pundit is correct.