McDermott, Daboll, Frazier zoom session 9/13

[Putin]

2 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Maybe it’s just me but I haven’t seen Cody do anything great 

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

 

 

What an odd response. Maybe I am missing something, but if Josh is not in rhythm, surely we can do more than decide whether to hand the ball off, call options, or have him throw the ball. You know, like, some short quick high percentage passes to get him going a bit. 

 

I am a fan of going no huddle shorter passes and such to help QBs establish rhythm.

 

Josh is pretty effective at 2 min drills and it gives the oline a break from dline shifts, rotations, and complex stunts they use when they are given more time.

 

Just one method to help an offense find their rhythm....

 

The higher a team climbs in expectations the steeper the fall when they stumble.

 

We will see how this team responds.

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by WideNine

[MasterStrategist]

36 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

No, we wouldn't. On a day when the offense is humming, if the game was a shootout then sure... on this day, against this team it was pure idiocy even if ended up working. 

It was a big risk, not what I'd call I that situation either, but disagree that we wouldn't be talking about this play if it had worked. 

 

Again, I'm not defending the call, just stating the obvious and Daboll has tendencies to be an agressive/risky play caller and sometimes they pay off and other times they don't.  

[MasterStrategist]

41 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I said "Overall I agree with McD yesterday that the D did enough to give us a chance to win.'

I'm not exculpating the offense, which was bad, and we ARE asking why we weren't up by more than 10 at the half, especially starting with great field position on the first drive and only coming away with a FG

 

But

 

Pitts started in the first half from 25, 20, 13, 7, 45 yds (that last the result of a fumble): average 22 yds

Pitts started in the second half from 25, 36, 48, 25 yds: average 33 yds

 

Point is they had a drive starting from great field position in the 1st half and the defense held

They really only had one drive with awful starting field position in the 2nd half, due to some very strange 4th down decisions and playcalls.

 

More than one thing can be true at once

 

It can be true that the Offense was bad, AND true that the Defense wasn't nearly as good in the 2nd half

 

Why isn't that fair game to discuss without calling it "nonsense"?

Momentum is a big thing and when we didn't convert you could feel that air leave the stadium, and it also impacted the defense.

 

Not an excuse.  But we can't expect the defense to bail out the offense constantly.

 

To answer your question, it's nonsense because:

Steelers get paid too, and have some very good offensive players as well.  Not like they lit us up either.  Ben did his old self and made a good escaping pocket play to hit Freimermuth down the seam.  Claypool got Levi to give up a big DPI, questionable, but those 2 plays were the difference for 10 points essentially.

 

Maybe we had different expectations, but I thought Pittsburgh's offense would still be able to score on us in this game, despite the new oline.  Ben is not once what he was, but like last season, Steelers were very much a "30 minute team" in games.  They are exactly the same in that aspect, atbleast Game 1.  That said, I predicted a 30-20 Bills victory, and we gave up 16 points.  I don't care if those all came in the 1st half, or 2nd half.  To me, we gave away the Momentum after both failed 4th down conversions.  That was the clear turning point.  

 

 

 

 

[billybrew1]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

 

As he should.  It was a terrible game plan coupled with some pretty terrible calls.  I won't say he called a complete crap game but he certainly had some seriously bad calls here and there.  Going 4 and 5 wide most of the game was just stupid.  I don't care about the pass/run ratio but the personal and formations just ugh.

But that what is so disconcerting about this game. The big matchup we were supposed to win, was our WRs vs. their depth CBs.  Anyone who thinks Allen didn't have a bad game is wrong. He was never comfortable, he never looked off, he was staring down each receiver where the ball was going each play. His feet were all off (granted, I am no expert on Josh's unusual body mechanics) his passes were generally off the mark. He threw into triple coverage twice. You win with what got you there, we got there by Allen playing like a super elite QB. Josh was anything but that yesterday.

Now, I'm not saying Daboll called a good game, far from that, but I think the main reason we lost is because Allen did not resemble the guy that took us to AFC championship game. But that can't explain our bizarre fourth down calls. What I think gets Allen in a game are rollouts. Moreso to his right, but he does well going to both sides. Daboll seem to take rollouts away last playoffs and that continued vs. Pittsburgh. I think if you move your QB around you slow down the rush and you give your OL an advantage. They know where Allen is going the defense does not. If I could ask Daboll one question, that would be it. Why don't we roll out Allen more often? Or, Why don't we call more RPO plays?

 

As far as Allen's poor game yesterday I say, so what, everyone is due a bad game once in a while, I think It's good we have Miami this week. This is a team our team Billieve's it can beat, particularly Allen. He has to get back his game. I'm very glad Miami doesn't have two all time great players like Pittsburgh does in the front seven in Hayward and Watt. That alone should lift Allen's spirits.

its interesting though, where Pittsburgh's supposed weakness was the cornerback depth, Miami has a ton of CBs. What Miami lacks is Maybe All-pro front seven personnel...

So.... I expect a very different game plan. Not because last week's didn't work, but because Miami is a very different team.

 

As an aside note: Allen really has to prove he can hit the bomb consistently. It's not that hard of a pass, not sure why he struggles with it other than most of his impressive passes are lasers. Still, he has shown touch quite a bit last season. He needs to combine the touch pass with the long pass and he has it, right? But he has to hit that pass or we're in serious trouble. You can't not have the bomb in your package and expect to win. Those wondering if our receivers are fast enough or not, I think no longer have to worry about that. Sanders was wide-open.  I think Diggs, Davis, McKenzie and Sanders can all get open deep if given one on one  matchups. We have to hit them.

 

Go Bills!

[billybrew1]

5 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Momentum is a big thing and when we didn't convert you could feel that air leave the stadium, and it also impacted the defense.

 

Not an excuse.  But we can't expect the defense to bail out the offense constantly.

 

To answer your question, it's nonsense because:

Steelers get paid too, and have some very good offensive players as well.  Not like they lit us up either.  Ben did his old self and made a good escaping pocket play to hit Freimermuth down the seam.  Claypool got Levi to give up a big DPI, questionable, but those 2 plays were the difference for 10 points essentially.

 

Maybe we had different expectations, but I thought Pittsburgh's offense would still be able to score on us in this game, despite the new oline.  Ben is not once what he was, but like last season, Steelers were very much a "30 minute team" in games.  They are exactly the same in that aspect, atbleast Game 1.  That said, I predicted a 30-20 Bills victory, and we gave up 16 points.  I don't care if those all came in the 1st half, or 2nd half.  To me, we gave away the Momentum after both failed 4th down conversions.  That was the clear turning point.  

 

 

 

 

I like what you said, when the schedule came out I was really worried about this game. But when I saw the Stealers OL and the Stealers CB depth I thought those were two very huge advantages for us that Pittsburgh could not recover from And we would win big.

The Big thing I didn't expect is Allen playing poorly and he did, there's no question. Our D played excellent except for the fourth quarter. What I don't understand is why our defense seem beat in the fourth. We had an overwhelming advantage in TOP and if we're to be a Super Bowl team, our defense has to be first rate from beginning to end.

Yes, it was our offense that was overwhelmingly to blame in this game, but the defenses late collapse was disturbing to me. They looked like last year's defense late in the fourth. Yes, I know Pittsburgh has a HOF QB, and great receivers and RB but the pass rush was gassed..... Having wrote this out I explained to my self that the D is NOT guilty here....LOL....The offense collapse was why we lost (and perhaps that blocked punt)....

 

Go Bills!

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Lost in over-reaction Monday is this: Week 1 is just weird and unpredictable. The old ‘any given Sunday’ saying is exemplified 👍🏼

[LABILLBACKER]

17 minutes ago, billybrew1 said:

But that what is so disconcerting about this game. The big matchup we were supposed to win, was our WRs vs. their depth CBs.  Anyone who thinks Allen didn't have a bad game is wrong. He was never comfortable, he never looked off, he was staring down each receiver where the ball was going each play. His feet were all off (granted, I am no expert on Josh's unusual body mechanics) his passes were generally off the mark. He threw into triple coverage twice. You win with what got you there, we got there by Allen playing like a super elite QB. Josh was anything but that yesterday.

Now, I'm not saying Daboll called a good game, far from that, but I think the main reason we lost is because Allen did not resemble the guy that took us to AFC championship game. But that can't explain our bizarre fourth down calls. What I think gets Allen in a game are rollouts. Moreso to his right, but he does well going to both sides. Daboll seem to take rollouts away last playoffs and that continued vs. Pittsburgh. I think if you move your QB around you slow down the rush and you give your OL an advantage. They know where Allen is going the defense does not. If I could ask Daboll one question, that would be it. Why don't we roll out Allen more often? Or, Why don't we call more RPO plays?

 

As far as Allen's poor game yesterday I say, so what, everyone is due a bad game once in a while, I think It's good we have Miami this week. This is a team our team Billieve's it can beat, particularly Allen. He has to get back his game. I'm very glad Miami doesn't have two all time great players like Pittsburgh does in the front seven in Hayward and Watt. That alone should lift Allen's spirits.

its interesting though, where Pittsburgh's supposed weakness was the cornerback depth, Miami has a ton of CBs. What Miami lacks is Maybe All-pro front seven personnel...

So.... I expect a very different game plan. Not because last week's didn't work, but because Miami is a very different team.

 

As an aside note: Allen really has to prove he can hit the bomb consistently. It's not that hard of a pass, not sure why he struggles with it other than most of his impressive passes are lasers. Still, he has shown touch quite a bit last season. He needs to combine the touch pass with the long pass and he has it, right? But he has to hit that pass or we're in serious trouble. You can't not have the bomb in your package and expect to win. Those wondering if our receivers are fast enough or not, I think no longer have to worry about that. Sanders was wide-open.  I think Diggs, Davis, McKenzie and Sanders can all get open deep if given one on one  matchups. We have to hit them.

 

Go Bills!

Josh has struggled his whole career with throws over 40 yards. And the biggest reason is that canon arm. Apparently no one including Palmer has taught him the value of elevating your deep throw trajectory. He insists on throwing hard and flat. Not even Tyreek could catch up to these overthrows. "Drop the ball in the basket"....you should be taught this in high school. 

[Scott7975]

28 minutes ago, billybrew1 said:

But that what is so disconcerting about this game. The big matchup we were supposed to win, was our WRs vs. their depth CBs.  Anyone who thinks Allen didn't have a bad game is wrong. He was never comfortable, he never looked off, he was staring down each receiver where the ball was going each play. His feet were all off (granted, I am no expert on Josh's unusual body mechanics) his passes were generally off the mark. He threw into triple coverage twice. You win with what got you there, we got there by Allen playing like a super elite QB. Josh was anything but that yesterday.

Now, I'm not saying Daboll called a good game, far from that, but I think the main reason we lost is because Allen did not resemble the guy that took us to AFC championship game. But that can't explain our bizarre fourth down calls. What I think gets Allen in a game are rollouts. Moreso to his right, but he does well going to both sides. Daboll seem to take rollouts away last playoffs and that continued vs. Pittsburgh. I think if you move your QB around you slow down the rush and you give your OL an advantage. They know where Allen is going the defense does not. If I could ask Daboll one question, that would be it. Why don't we roll out Allen more often? Or, Why don't we call more RPO plays?

 

As far as Allen's poor game yesterday I say, so what, everyone is due a bad game once in a while, I think It's good we have Miami this week. This is a team our team Billieve's it can beat, particularly Allen. He has to get back his game. I'm very glad Miami doesn't have two all time great players like Pittsburgh does in the front seven in Hayward and Watt. That alone should lift Allen's spirits.

its interesting though, where Pittsburgh's supposed weakness was the cornerback depth, Miami has a ton of CBs. What Miami lacks is Maybe All-pro front seven personnel...

So.... I expect a very different game plan. Not because last week's didn't work, but because Miami is a very different team.

 

As an aside note: Allen really has to prove he can hit the bomb consistently. It's not that hard of a pass, not sure why he struggles with it other than most of his impressive passes are lasers. Still, he has shown touch quite a bit last season. He needs to combine the touch pass with the long pass and he has it, right? But he has to hit that pass or we're in serious trouble. You can't not have the bomb in your package and expect to win. Those wondering if our receivers are fast enough or not, I think no longer have to worry about that. Sanders was wide-open.  I think Diggs, Davis, McKenzie and Sanders can all get open deep if given one on one  matchups. We have to hit them.

 

Go Bills!

 

You don't need great corners all over the field when the team knows they can play pass 100% of the time and almost always be right.  Especially when that D has one of the best pass rushing groups in the league.  If not the best. Even with 5 wide 2 of them can be double covered because they have 7 in coverage and they are blowing up our line at the snap of the ball.

 

Not many teams will be able to do that to the Bills O because they don't have the talent but there are a few on the schedule.  That was one of them.

[Mango]

2 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

You don't need great corners all over the field when the team knows they can play pass 100% of the time and almost always be right.  Especially when that D has one of the best pass rushing groups in the league.  If not the best. Even with 5 wide 2 of them can be double covered because they have 7 in coverage and they are blowing up our line at the snap of the ball.

 

Not many teams will be able to do that to the Bills O because they don't have the talent but there are a few on the schedule.  That was one of them.

At the risk of taking the thread off track, I don’t know the solution yesterday. Obviously running more would have changed things. But Singletary was averaging 3.28 YPC before the Steelers went up by 10. So it’s not like the ground and pound would have kept them honest. The defense was proficient against the run. 

[billybrew1]

1 hour ago, Putin said:

Maybe it’s just me but I haven’t seen Cody do anything great 

IDK? Who opened up those hole for Singletary in the fourth?

Just now, billybrew1 said:

IDK? Who opened up those hole for Singletary in the fourth?

Expanding.... Devin is a great back but he needs a crack to be effective..... no crack, no yards.

1 minute ago, billybrew1 said:

IDK? Who opened up those hole for Singletary in the fourth?

Expanding.... Devin is a great back but he needs a crack to be effective..... no crack, no yards.

More on that.... I think we really Telegraph our runs mostly. I thought we'd have that fixed by now.

[Scott7975]

9 minutes ago, Mango said:

At the risk of taking the thread off track, I don’t know the solution yesterday. Obviously running more would have changed things. But Singletary was averaging 3.28 YPC before the Steelers went up by 10. So it’s not like the ground and pound would have kept them honest. The defense was proficient against the run. 

 

It's not so much the pass run ratio for me.  I think just having different formations would have helped.  Going 4-5 wide every play is ludicrous IMO. Put in a TE or a back in the backfield.  Give the obviously struggling line some help.  I just can't believe that they made no adjustments in the game.  At least none that I could tell. I will admit that I am not totally football smart, but I think just the gameplan alone was advantage Pittsburg defense.  Josh had some misfires that didn't help.  Just the one deep pass he missed for a wide open TD changes the game.  Couple receivers dropping the ball didn't help.  Oline getting holding calls.  A tacky tack PI call on the INT.  All these things add up.  Daboll changes a couple play calls.  McD changes a couple 4th down calls. Block punt ended up being the difference.

 

Most people like to blame one thing and call it a day.  At the end of the day though, it's a team game.  Had any aspect done better, had a thing or two happened/not happened... the Bills probably would have won the game.

 

I don't expect Daboll to call a perfect game.  I don't expect Josh to execute perfectly week in and week out.  Especially under that much pressure.  Our line was Swiss cheese against just 4 guys.  Daboll should have given them help.  They should have adjust at halftime at least.  Like do they make one gameplan and that's it no matter what?  Sees ridiculous for players and coaches at this level.  JMO

 

Edit: More on the pass run ratio.  Its like Daboll throws a run in here and there.  If the run works he just keeps going until it doesn't.  If it doesn't work he doesn't run again for like a half a game.  I been saying for 2.x seasons that I don't think the guy has a good feel for how to change it up.  run run run run stopped.  Pass pass pass pass pass run stopped pass pass pass pass pass run(works) run run run stopped pass pas pass pass.  I know that's run on galore with no commas.  Sorry.  

Edited September 13, 2021 by Scott7975

[NickelCity]

We've got to be able to have a reasonable shot at running (and occasionally demonstrate it) out of the same formations we like to pass from. We cannot have a formation for each, but yesterday we did (and to some degree, last year too). 

[Scott7975]

1 minute ago, NickelCity said:

We've got to be able to have a reasonable shot at running (and occasionally demonstrate it) out of the same formations we like to pass from. We cannot have a formation for each, but yesterday we did (and to some degree, last year too). 

 

I agree with this and the guy above too.  Runs are pretty telegraphed.  Daboll has no flow or nuance to his game.

[YoloinOhio]

On one hand, the Steelers D is simply a bad matchup for the Bills and that goes back to 2019 even though they managed to win 2 of those. On the other hand, teams have a ton of film on the 2020 bills offense so hopefully daboll had changed some things

[billybrew1]

36 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

You don't need great corners all over the field when the team knows they can play pass 100% of the time and almost always be right.  Especially when that D has one of the best pass rushing groups in the league.  If not the best. Even with 5 wide 2 of them can be double covered because they have 7 in coverage and they are blowing up our line at the snap of the ball.

 

Not many teams will be able to do that to the Bills O because they don't have the talent but there are a few on the schedule.  That was one of them.

They really did whoop up on our OL and now I wonder how they feel getting beat that bad. I do think they could have called holding more often.... The only answer I have aside from Josh playing much better is to roll Allen out about a third of the time. Mostly right but sometimes left. Have a moving pocket and maybe are OL can do a better job knowing Josh is going to roll? I also think Allen does very well with RPOs and you put him in that situation....

Another thing you do to help is if we can really nail those edge rushers coming around the corner with a RB. Fred Jackson could just nail edge rushers (and DTs, LOL) coming in and boy did that slow there rush. IDK, if Moss or Singletary can hit with that kind of power or not though? 

We definitely lost the game with our OL getting beat and Josh in no frame of mind to beat them anyways.... Josh had no peripheral vision Sunday at all. Sometimes he sees everyone.  He moves accordingly and makes amazing plays. It's not like our OL was perfect last year or even close. Josh did it by himself quite regularly on plays. He just didn't have it yesterday.

if you're really nervous you lose peripheral vision.

It'll be interesting next week, which Josh will we get?

[3rdand12]

3 hours ago, Mango said:

 

So that was the result from a 100% Dawkins? 

Yikes, it will most certainly be a long year if that is the case!  (which I do not buy. Dawkins is not at 100%. Either from Covid, or laziness, or his dog died. I don't know)

Buddy at the game said he certainly looked slower and less fit than last season. I value his opinion

[Mango]

Just now, 3rdand12 said:

Buddy at the game said he certainly looked slower and less fit than last season. I value his opinion

I am not your buddy, pal! 😂
 

I admittedly didn’t watch the presser and was replying to the tweet. I assumed there was more color to the comment. 

[RyanC883]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think they called some of the latter at times Josh was definitely looking for the hollywood ball. It was on everyone. Bad gameplan, poorly called, inconsistent QB play and dreadful blocking up front (plus a couple of drops from receivers). A mess. Hopefully just a bad day at the office.

 

I'd shake this off as a "bad day" for almost everyone but Daboll.  Daboll needs a more balanced approach, and this isn't happening, and he appears to be too stubborn to realize the need for it.  

[Sharky7337]

4 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

The majority of what McD says better be about the horrible coaching job he and his staff put out yesterday.

 

I dont want to hear about 1-on-1 blocking opportunities when you setup the OLine to fail.

 

I'll say it: He called a complete crap game. AND had a complete crap game plan going into the game.

And when I hear the game announcers commenting that dabol doesn't believe in. Adjusting to opponents and they are going to do what they do no matter what I was like wtf.....

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, MasterStrategist said:

Momentum is a big thing and when we didn't convert you could feel that air leave the stadium, and it also impacted the defense.

 

Not an excuse.  But we can't expect the defense to bail out the offense constantly.

 

To answer your question, it's nonsense because:

Steelers get paid too, and have some very good offensive players as well.  Not like they lit us up either.  Ben did his old self and made a good escaping pocket play to hit Freimermuth down the seam.  Claypool got Levi to give up a big DPI, questionable, but those 2 plays were the difference for 10 points essentially.

 

Maybe we had different expectations, but I thought Pittsburgh's offense would still be able to score on us in this game, despite the new oline.  Ben is not once what he was, but like last season, Steelers were very much a "30 minute team" in games.  They are exactly the same in that aspect, atbleast Game 1.  That said, I predicted a 30-20 Bills victory, and we gave up 16 points.  I don't care if those all came in the 1st half, or 2nd half.  To me, we gave away the Momentum after both failed 4th down conversions.  That was the clear turning point. 

 

If you're making the point that the failed 4th down conversions were a turning point and there was bad decision making on both whether to go for it and on play calling - I 100% agree.

[Reks Ryan]

it was a bad offensive game plan.  IMO it wasn't the pass vs run ratio that was so bad, it was the formations.    Last year they were pass heavy, but mostly out of 11 personnel, 1 RB, 1 TE and 3 WR.     I believe around 70% of their plays last year were 11 personnel and just over 15% with 4 or 5 receiver sets.    Yesterday they ran more the 50% of their plays with 4 or 5 receivers. 

 

The Steelers had a good game plan against those formations and it was evident early on that the Bills O was not creating mismatches.  In the end there were very few plays with open receivers down field or even plays where receivers could catch the ball on the run underneath with any space.    Not sure why Daboll thought it was good idea to keep utilizing the formations that were clearly giving the edge to the Steelers.  The Bills finally adjusted on the 4th QTR drive where Singletary ripped off a couple nice runs, but it was too late.  

 

[stevewin]

3 hours ago, SDS said:

 

 

Don't know how Daboll watched that play then drew up and practiced whatever the hell that was yesterday - was like how can we take this play that worked and change it just enought so that it will be a catasrophe

[MasterStrategist]

35 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If you're making the point that the failed 4th down conversions were a turning point and there was bad decision making on both whether to go for it and on play calling - I 100% agree.

Yes, but more than that, I think it had a huge impact on the defensive performance from then on out.  Second guessing is easy tho, so I trust coach and like his aggressiveness.

 

Yep, we are on the same page with most of this. I just think it was alot to ask the defense to contain Steelers all game long, they are too talented and well coached.  At some point they were going to break through. 

 

On to Miami, I liked Frazier quotes and Poyers today about needing to get takeaways.  That was the only thing missing yesterday, although Tre's pick should have been it, but hopefully they can get that going this week

9 minutes ago, stevewin said:

Don't know how Daboll watched that play then drew up and practiced whatever the hell that was yesterday - was like how can we take this play that worked and change it just enought so that it will be a catasrophe

That was literally the same play Daboll called.  I don't think it schematically was any different, just poorly executed.

 

Allen took the snap to the left, like he was running the speed option.  And the defense alignment was ready for it, even Tomlin called that out in his presser.

 

Either Josh should have audibled, or coaches should have recognized the defense formation and called timeout

[PolishDave]

45 minutes ago, Reks Ryan said:

it was a bad offensive game plan.  IMO it wasn't the pass vs run ratio that was so bad, it was the formations.    Last year they were pass heavy, but mostly out of 11 personnel, 1 RB, 1 TE and 3 WR.     I believe around 70% of their plays last year were 11 personnel and just over 15% with 4 or 5 receiver sets.    Yesterday they ran more the 50% of their plays with 4 or 5 receivers. 

 

The Steelers had a good game plan against those formations and it was evident early on that the Bills O was not creating mismatches.  In the end there were very few plays with open receivers down field or even plays where receivers could catch the ball on the run underneath with any space.    Not sure why Daboll thought it was good idea to keep utilizing the formations that were clearly giving the edge to the Steelers.  The Bills finally adjusted on the 4th QTR drive where Singletary ripped off a couple nice runs, but it was too late.  

 

 

Seemed to me in that game that having more than 3 receivers out there for Allen was kind of a waste anyway.    If he isn't going to throw the ball to the checkdown guy(s), then why even have those guys out there running routes?   May as well have extra blockers to give time for the deep routes to develop.

 

If the Bills are going to continue to flood the field with that many receivers, then Allen has to have the maturity to throw to the guys who are going to be open with regularity there, the ckeckdown short route runner.

 

It would also help if we had short route runners that were exceptional at the run after catch.    All those years of watching the Patriots throw 4 yard passes that some midget receiver would turn into 10-12 yard gains comes to mind.   A Tyreek Hill would be nice.

[YoloinOhio]

25 minutes ago, stevewin said:

Don't know how Daboll watched that play then drew up and practiced whatever the hell that was yesterday - was like how can we take this play that worked and change it just enought so that it will be a catasrophe

I think one of his flaws is just that he gets too cute 

[stevewin]

32 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

That was literally the same play Daboll called.  I don't think it schematically was any different, just poorly executed.

 

Allen took the snap to the left, like he was running the speed option.  And the defense alignment was ready for it, even Tomlin called that out in his presser.

 

Either Josh should have audibled, or coaches should have recognized the defense formation and called timeout

Daboll's 2021 version had a receiver out wide to the left, who then came into the back field, bringing an extra defender down on the edge right where the play was going to go (vs the 2004 version which had the TE shift from left to right - drawing attention to the right side) - then in 2004 version Bledsoe takes the snap and does a hard fake sneak to the right (whre the TE had shifted - presumably to block), drawing even more attention to that side - while 2021 version Josh barely takes a 1/4 step "fake" then stands back and chucks it.  For trick plays the devil is in the details - if they actually practiced it in OTAs and TC they should have gotten the design/details right (the biggest thing was why change the design of the play that worked perfectly to have a receiver bring a defender down to where the fake was going to go - just stupid)

Edited September 14, 2021 by stevewin

[MasterStrategist]

59 minutes ago, stevewin said:

Daboll's 2021 version had a receiver out wide to the left, who then came into the back field, bringing an extra defender down on the edge right where the play was going to go (vs the 2004 version which had the TE shift from left to right - drawing attention to the right side) - then in 2004 version Bledsoe takes the snap and does a hard fake sneak to the right (whre the TE had shifted - presumably to block), drawing even more attention to that side - while 2021 version Josh barely takes a 1/4 step "fake" then stands back and chucks it.  For trick plays the devil is in the details - if they actually practiced it in OTAs and TC they should have gotten the design/details right (the biggest thing was why change the design of the play that worked perfectly to have a receiver bring a defender down to where the fake was going to go - just stupid)

Actually McKenzie came in jet sweep motion, faking the jet sweep (he never came.into the backfield).  So it was designed to get the defense to hesitate or think it was going to the right or Josh on a a sneak.  Neither faked.out the Steelers.

 

In addition, it was poorly executed by Gilliam and Spencer Brown.  Go watch the replay, Brown gets tossed aside by Ingram and Gilliam doesn't get to the edge to block the corner.  

 

Either way it's over with and onto Miami

[jlgarsh]

I thought clock management in the 4th was atrocious too. They were slow getting to the line and could have gone for a TD first instead of a FG if they weren’t so slow. It seemed like they didn’t have a game plan for playing from behind, which I don’t get. It reminded me of the super bowl in 2004 where McNabb didn’t run the hurry up offense and the Eagles ran out of time to come back.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

1 hour ago, MasterStrategist said:

Actually McKenzie came in jet sweep motion, faking the jet sweep (he never came.into the backfield).  So it was designed to get the defense to hesitate or think it was going to the right or Josh on a a sneak.  Neither faked.out the Steelers.

 

In addition, it was poorly executed by Gilliam and Spencer Brown.  Go watch the replay, Brown gets tossed aside by Ingram and Gilliam doesn't get to the edge to block the corner.  

 

Either way it's over with and onto Miami

 

So you've just called out one way it was schematically different - it looks like a TE motioning into the 'pile o' blockers' in the 2004 version, adding credibility to the idea it's a QB sneak.  No one is worried about McKenzie adding to the pile, and the jet sweep stuff hadn't faked the Stillers out earlier in the game.

 

Then the other point is that we were failing to properly block Ingram All. Freakin'. Game.  Dawkins got spun like a prayer wheel.  So, now in a critical play on the game, we're going to go all gimmicky and put our success on the shoulders of a raw rookie OLman to do what our "franchise" LT has been failing at, all game?

 

Sometimes I feel Daboll gets too entrenched in his Ivory tower thinking about the X's and O's and gets totally divorced from the Jimmies and the Joes who have to make it work.  He also gets too cute thinking about "well if we do this then the defense will do that" and doesn't talk to Frazier or McDermott or Hughes or Milano or whoever to get a reality check "ah, OK, coach, if I saw this, I'd actually think...."

 

I saw that a lot in 2018 and a bit in 2019 and I thought experience had drawn it out of him, like a poultice draws an infection, but it turns out it was only festering under the skin and waiting to erupt.

[MasterStrategist]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

So you've just called out one way it was schematically different - it looks like a TE motioning into the 'pile o' blockers' in the 2004 version, adding credibility to the idea it's a QB sneak.  No one is worried about McKenzie adding to the pile, and the jet sweep stuff hadn't faked the Stillers out earlier in the game.

 

Then the other point is that we were failing to properly block Ingram All. Freakin'. Game.  Dawkins got spun like a prayer wheel.  So, now in a critical play on the game, we're going to go all gimmicky and put our success on the shoulders of a raw rookie OLman to do what our "franchise" LT has been failing at, all game?

 

Sometimes I feel Daboll gets too entrenched in his Ivory tower thinking about the X's and O's and gets totally divorced from the Jimmies and the Joes who have to make it work.

Look it, I agree.  Daboll can get too cute.

 

My original comment was to say this was a high risk/high reward type play call, and it backfired.  But we'd be all singing a different tune if it panned out. Daboll has had some creative gems in past seasons, this was not one of them.

 

Then this 2nd post was to simply explain what Daboll was trying to do schematically, which was very similar/same concept as the 2004 play.  Get defense thinking QB sneak, then pitch it wide to a speed back.  On top of that, the added jet motion was eye candy.  Obviously none of it worked and completely was blown up.

 

For the record, I'm just too risk averse to like a playcall in that situation.  Steelers had it defended, and this is why we have a Zack Moss RB, but with him not dressed, it hampers these situations.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

For the record, I'm just too risk averse to like a playcall in that situation.  Steelers had it defended, and this is why we have a Zack Moss RB, but with him not dressed, it hampers these situations.

 

Well, one justification for Gilleslee being dressed was that in preseason, he was used in a short yardage fullback role.  So there's that.

 

I wasn't trying to pick a nit with you, just reacting to your comment "I don't think it schematically was any different".  The problem with those kind of plays is that if you tamper with the details (eg small WR vs TE, moving in to the L vs moving across the formation to the R) you may tamper with features that sell the play and make it work. 

[3rdand12]

17 hours ago, PolishDave said:

 

Seemed to me in that game that having more than 3 receivers out there for Allen was kind of a waste anyway.    If he isn't going to throw the ball to the checkdown guy(s), then why even have those guys out there running routes?   May as well have extra blockers to give time for the deep routes to develop.

 

If the Bills are going to continue to flood the field with that many receivers, then Allen has to have the maturity to throw to the guys who are going to be open with regularity there, the ckeckdown short route runner.

 

It would also help if we had short route runners that were exceptional at the run after catch.    All those years of watching the Patriots throw 4 yard passes that some midget receiver would turn into 10-12 yard gains comes to mind.   A Tyreek Hill would be nice.

Bills under Josh's tenure never throw to check downs or block and release guys like Singletary. so how would we know if Bills have good RAC options ?  lol
 

I agree with you. And I might guess Josh does too.

the game has always been about a willingness to take what the defense gives you

17 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

I think one of his flaws is just that he gets too cute 

and or arrogant ?

[Coach Tuesday]

15 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

So you've just called out one way it was schematically different - it looks like a TE motioning into the 'pile o' blockers' in the 2004 version, adding credibility to the idea it's a QB sneak.  No one is worried about McKenzie adding to the pile, and the jet sweep stuff hadn't faked the Stillers out earlier in the game.

 

Then the other point is that we were failing to properly block Ingram All. Freakin'. Game.  Dawkins got spun like a prayer wheel.  So, now in a critical play on the game, we're going to go all gimmicky and put our success on the shoulders of a raw rookie OLman to do what our "franchise" LT has been failing at, all game?

 

Sometimes I feel Daboll gets too entrenched in his Ivory tower thinking about the X's and O's and gets totally divorced from the Jimmies and the Joes who have to make it work.  He also gets too cute thinking about "well if we do this then the defense will do that" and doesn't talk to Frazier or McDermott or Hughes or Milano or whoever to get a reality check "ah, OK, coach, if I saw this, I'd actually think...."

 

I saw that a lot in 2018 and a bit in 2019 and I thought experience had drawn it out of him, like a poultice draws an infection, but it turns out it was only festering under the skin and waiting to erupt.

 

Relatedly - Ingram was a late free agent pickup for the Steelers.  You telling me we couldn't have gotten that guy and saved our second round pick for something more useful in 2021, like a guard?  Beane throws away his 2nd rounders like candy.

[3rdand12]

15 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

So you've just called out one way it was schematically different - it looks like a TE motioning into the 'pile o' blockers' in the 2004 version, adding credibility to the idea it's a QB sneak.  No one is worried about McKenzie adding to the pile, and the jet sweep stuff hadn't faked the Stillers out earlier in the game.

 

Then the other point is that we were failing to properly block Ingram All. Freakin'. Game.  Dawkins got spun like a prayer wheel.  So, now in a critical play on the game, we're going to go all gimmicky and put our success on the shoulders of a raw rookie OLman to do what our "franchise" LT has been failing at, all game?

 

Sometimes I feel Daboll gets too entrenched in his Ivory tower thinking about the X's and O's and gets totally divorced from the Jimmies and the Joes who have to make it work.  He also gets too cute thinking about "well if we do this then the defense will do that" and doesn't talk to Frazier or McDermott or Hughes or Milano or whoever to get a reality check "ah, OK, coach, if I saw this, I'd actually think...."

 

I saw that a lot in 2018 and a bit in 2019 and I thought experience had drawn it out of him, like a poultice draws an infection, but it turns out it was only festering under the skin and waiting to erupt.

Poultice and prayer wheels. Not bad for a conversation about Football details

[Locomark]

On 9/13/2021 at 3:45 PM, SectionC3 said:

I loved the flea flicker.  Great call, just didn’t work. 

I hate any pass play that has only 1 receiver in a pattern. What an awful design.