Chandler#81 Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 7 hours ago, TEC said: The league doesn't play hardball anyway. Terry doesn't have to stand at the podium and please his case. Give us our money, or we leave. Paulie said it better in Goodfellas - '***** you, pay me'. That's the reality. Y'all are right - give the Bills a ton of public funds, or they will find a new city (Is it San Diego or St Louis now? Austin? I can't keep up). The loyalty the Pegulas claimed to have would quickly evaporate without an influx of public money, Bills fandom be damned. I appreciate what San Diego and Oakland did. Not because they didn't love their team, not because they weren't loyal fans, but they just realized that when the rubber meets the road, public money is better spent elsewhere, and they had the balls to call out the ultra-wealthy. Of course, we don't like that reality, because again, who can fathom the team leaving. Sounds like ya'll are ready to cut your check. Good luck. You’ve obviously joined up here solely to promote your agenda, as you’ve offered zero posts of the on field football team this site is founded on. On top of this, your Holier Than Thou attitude makes you a complete bore, to say nothing of having many of your key points effectively rebutted. This is a fan site of the Buffalo Bills football team. Consider yourself on notice. You’ve exposed yourself. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That's No Moon Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 7 hours ago, klos63 said: It doesn't mean they're going to sell. They would move if it came to that. And the net result will be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 17 hours ago, Doc said: So you call his bluff and Terry moves the team or sells it to someone who will move it. Great, you "called the billionaire's bluff." You da man! And now you don't have a team and your tax money still gets wasted on stupid ***** anyway. I think you’re missing my point. This is a Bills Message Board. So I assume it’s filled with a select subset of the general population: Bills fans. So….If you want to go to see home games in WNY at a reasonable price you should want the cost of the stadium subsidized by the biggest number of people as possible. That doesn’t mean everyone pays an equal share! The assumption is that the Owner will pay the largest share. The fans at the games the next largest, and the region’s general population the least per person. The key will be reaching the proper balance between all three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 9 hours ago, TEC said: The league doesn't play hardball anyway. Terry doesn't have to stand at the podium and please his case. Give us our money, or we leave. Paulie said it better in Goodfellas - '***** you, pay me'. That's the reality. Y'all are right - give the Bills a ton of public funds, or they will find a new city (Is it San Diego or St Louis now? Austin? I can't keep up). The loyalty the Pegulas claimed to have would quickly evaporate without an influx of public money, Bills fandom be damned. I appreciate what San Diego and Oakland did. Not because they didn't love their team, not because they weren't loyal fans, but they just realized that when the rubber meets the road, public money is better spent elsewhere, and they had the balls to call out the ultra-wealthy. Of course, we don't like that reality, because again, who can fathom the team leaving. Sounds like ya'll are ready to cut your check. Good luck. Except that is BS. They took the bluff and lost. They decided public money could be used elsewhere, but SD soon found out that meant more of their public funding left the area to support things in LA where their team went. They did not suddenly have some huge influx in cash - the money followed the team and they are no better off. Oakland is starting to see the same thing with money heading toward SF and San Jose to support infrastructure and stadium builds in that area. Now SD has already started internal discussions that if they can get another team where would a stadium go. They have started politically looking at how and where they can publicly finance a build for a baseball/football complex and bring the NFL back. They lost and now realize it was a loss to the community. St. Louis for years has been fighting the fight - they had the Cardinals and didn’t pony up the money - lost the Cardinals to Arizona. Then spent huge money and effort to lure the Rams - the city got raped to get that team. Then in a flash - they are gone and once again they are looking at ways to rebuild and get a new team. Baltimore/Cleveland/LA - same story over and over - the cities plays hardball or drag their feet and franchises do what they have to do - Iconic Franchises - Baltimore Colts - Original Cleveland Browns - original NFL franchises pack up in the dead of night and bang gone. But to you that is a good thing - those cities should have a glut of public money for projects, but it doesn’t work that way - suddenly the city lacks an identity and very shortly they are 100% publicly financing a new stadium. The dumbest argument for not building the stadium is the “it won’t pay for itself” and “it doesn’t create the economic impact to counter the cost”. That is just asinine. Of course it won’t pay for itself or create the impact to cover the cost - that is why public money is needed. If they made a huge profit - then privately people would finance it and suck off the profit. Do libraries and museums make a profit? Nope - they suck huge amounts of public funds every year to cover costs, upgrades, projects. Roads are needed, but they bring in no money, but we spend tons of money on roads. The list is endless on what our public money goes to and almost all of it is money lost. In this case it is money lost to keep an identity for the area and I am ok with that. The final piece is if we tried to ask the users to pay only and you want to understand the impact on who attends - you are looking at adding about $100 in fees a ticket or about $1000 per seat pear season to pay off the initial build and interest in 20 years. Plus as we already know - being open air - upgrades and new features will need to be added within the first 10 years and every 10 years afterwards. So a season ticket holder of 4 seats will suddenly have to pay a new PSL, higher seat prices, and over $4000 in fees each year - so suddenly it costs a ticket holder about $12,000 or more each year and for club type seats 25 - 30,000 or more per season. Have fun with that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 12 hours ago, Fdapats said: Everyone has a price So (and let's assume the NFL allows community ownership of a team, which they don't, except for GB who was grandfathered-in), you have a problem with taxpayers paying $700M or so for a new stadium...but want them to spend $2.3B to buy the Bills and then another $1.4B for a new stadium? LOL! 3 hours ago, Chandler#81 said: You’ve obviously joined up here solely to promote your agenda, as you’ve offered zero posts of the on field football team this site is founded on. On top of this, your Holier Than Thou attitude makes you a complete bore, to say nothing of having many of your key points effectively rebutted. This is a fan site of the Buffalo Bills football team. Consider yourself on notice. You’ve exposed yourself. He's got a problem with Terry and the fracking. As do the people that rail against him. 1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said: I think you’re missing my point. This is a Bills Message Board. So I assume it’s filled with a select subset of the general population: Bills fans. So….If you want to go to see home games in WNY at a reasonable price you should want the cost of the stadium subsidized by the biggest number of people as possible. That doesn’t mean everyone pays an equal share! The assumption is that the Owner will pay the largest share. The fans at the games the next largest, and the region’s general population the least per person. The key will be reaching the proper balance between all three. Sorry bro, my post wasn't aimed at you. I agree with you. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple haze Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 12 hours ago, That's No Moon said: You've set up a scenario for yourself where you will be unhappy either way, either the public will pay for part of the stadium and the Bills will stay or they won't and they won't. You get to be upset either way. Congratulations. ding, ding, ding. 🎤👇🏾 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 4 hours ago, That's No Moon said: And the net result will be the same. The comment I responded to was about selling the team to the state/county, that can't/won't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fdapats Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Doc said: So (and let's assume the NFL allows community ownership of a team, which they don't, except for GB who was grandfathered-in), you have a problem with taxpayers paying $700M or so for a new stadium...but want them to spend $2.3B to buy the Bills and then another $1.4B for a new stadium? LOL! All hypothetical, but absolutely. Would you rather spend $700M for nothing or $3B-$4B for ownership of the team and all of the profits in perpetuity? If no, I don't think I will be asking for investment advice from you. Also, community ownership would be the absolute best case scenario for the fans. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 32 minutes ago, Fdapats said: All hypothetical, but absolutely. Would you rather spend $700M for nothing or $3B-$4B for ownership of the team and all of the profits in perpetuity? If no, I don't think I will be asking for investment advice from you. Also, community ownership would be the absolute best case scenario for the fans. Except only fraction of "the community" paying for the purchase of the team are fans of the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fdapats Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 3 hours ago, Rochesterfan said: If they made a huge profit - then privately people would finance it and suck off the profit. I agree with this 100%, that is why use of tax payer money can’t be considered an investment at all. It is a subsidy to the NFL owners, just calling a spade a spade. 4 hours ago, Rochesterfan said: Do libraries and museums make a profit? Nope - they suck huge amounts of public funds every year to cover costs, upgrades, projects. Roads are needed, but they bring in no money, but we spend tons of money on roads. This is such a bad comparison. Libraries loan books to the community for free. Roads are free for the community to use. Spending money on a new stadium will simply allow the owners to charge more for tickets and make more money. The community gets no service, other than the ability to pay more (probably double the price) to attend games. 4 hours ago, Rochesterfan said: In this case it is money lost to keep an identity for the area and I am ok with that. I agree with you on this point. The identity for the area and the identity of all of us as Bills fans is something I cherish and absolutely do not want to lose. Is it worth putting $1B of tax payer money directly in the owner’s pockets? I think that is the tough question we all have to answer. 4 hours ago, Rochesterfan said: The final piece is if we tried to ask the users to pay only and you want to understand the impact on who attends - you are looking at adding about $100 in fees a ticket or about $1000 per seat pear season to pay off the initial build and interest in 20 years. Plus as we already know - being open air - upgrades and new features will need to be added within the first 10 years and every 10 years afterwards. So a season ticket holder of 4 seats will suddenly have to pay a new PSL, higher seat prices, and over $4000 in fees each year - so suddenly it costs a ticket holder about $12,000 or more each year and for club type seats 25 - 30,000 or more per season. This is another really bad point. If we give tax payer money to ownership to pay for a new stadium, is there any reason they won’t charge the absolute maximum they can and still sell out the stadium? Tickets will be set at the exact same price whether or not tax payer money is used. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 17 minutes ago, Fdapats said: I agree with this 100%, that is why use of tax payer money can’t be considered an investment at all. It is a subsidy to the NFL owners, just calling a spade a spade. This is such a bad comparison. Libraries loan books to the community for free. Roads are free for the community to use. Spending money on a new stadium will simply allow the owners to charge more for tickets and make more money. The community gets no service, other than the ability to pay more (probably double the price) to attend games. I agree with you on this point. The identity for the area and the identity of all of us as Bills fans is something I cherish and absolutely do not want to lose. Is it worth putting $1B of tax payer money directly in the owner’s pockets? I think that is the tough question we all have to answer. This is another really bad point. If we give tax payer money to ownership to pay for a new stadium, is there any reason they won’t charge the absolute maximum they can and still sell out the stadium? Tickets will be set at the exact same price whether or not tax payer money is used. Knock it off, Know it all!🤦♂️🤨 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 Anybody coming to a Buffalo Bills board And openly stating that they don't want a new stadium to be built for the team... Is so clearly a troll and not a Bills fan No matter what he says Guaranteed he is not a part of the Buffalo community 3 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 If you spread $1.5 billion over 65,000 seats over 50 years and 10 games a year, it comes out to $46 per ticket per game to pay for the place. You can decide if that’s a lot or a little. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cba fan Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Fdapats said: I agree with this 100%, that is why use of tax payer money can’t be considered an investment at all. It is a subsidy to the NFL owners, just calling a spade a spade. This is such a bad comparison. Libraries loan books to the community for free. Roads are free for the community to use. Spending money on a new stadium will simply allow the owners to charge more for tickets and make more money. The community gets no service, other than the ability to pay more (probably double the price) to attend games. what?? Taxpayers pay a premium for roads. Fuel tax. Misc back door taxes to improve roads. Surcharges/taxes to upgrade storm sewer run off plus retention ponds from roads. City crews salaries and benefits to maintain roads including winter snow work. City street cleaning. Lights needed for certain roads for driver safety. Free books from Library? Lol. Libraries cost millions to build and maintain. Workers salaries and benefits also big cost. RE taxes have a levy for library district property owners. You want pro sports to stop asking for subsidies? Then gov't also needs to stop the most profitable corp in history from getting tax money to build Super Walmarts...etc etc...... FYI: I am against giving tax money(tif districts etc) to private companies, especially very profitable ones, but until it is stopped I won't fault pro sports for trying to get their piece of the corp welfare pie. Edited September 4, 2021 by cba fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 Who runs the state owned team? The Governor? County executive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cba fan Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, klos63 said: Who runs the state owned team? The Governor? County executive? whoever owns it. City or county. In city near me(Rockford IL) the city bought the local minor league hockey franchise(Rockfrod Icehogs same colors lol) and upgraded to AHL affiliate for Chicago Blackhawks. They then kept all profits. Worked well plus they no longer needed to subsidize the city owned arena. Recently Blackhawks purchased the franchise. Blackhawks want Blackhawks get, and tells me it is profitable. Edited September 4, 2021 by cba fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 1 minute ago, cba fan said: whoever owns it. City or county. So with each election, we could see different management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cba fan Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, cba fan said: whoever owns it. City or county. 11 minutes ago, klos63 said: So with each election, we could see different management. no. They would form a sports authority board who would manage and run it. They all would be appointed by pols for a term or open ended. They would be in charge and not subject to election changes. They would hire President and president would hire GM who would hire coaches etc etc. All would need board approval. Edited September 4, 2021 by cba fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 1 minute ago, cba fan said: no. They would form a sports authority board who would manage and run it. They all would be appointed by pols for a term or open ended. They would be in charge and not subject to election changes. They would hire President and GM who would hire coaches etc etc. fortunately , it will never happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cba fan Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, klos63 said: fortunately , it will never happen. right NFL would never allow it like Green Bay....and GB is criticized for lack of influential one owner to fix or prevent some of the archaic backwards treatment of players like Rogers.....allegedly. They are thought of as a franchise with no head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Fdapats said: I agree with this 100%, that is why use of tax payer money can’t be considered an investment at all. It is a subsidy to the NFL owners, just calling a spade a spade. This is such a bad comparison. Libraries loan books to the community for free. Roads are free for the community to use. Spending money on a new stadium will simply allow the owners to charge more for tickets and make more money. The community gets no service, other than the ability to pay more (probably double the price) to attend games. I agree with you on this point. The identity for the area and the identity of all of us as Bills fans is something I cherish and absolutely do not want to lose. Is it worth putting $1B of tax payer money directly in the owner’s pockets? I think that is the tough question we all have to answer. This is another really bad point. If we give tax payer money to ownership to pay for a new stadium, is there any reason they won’t charge the absolute maximum they can and still sell out the stadium? Tickets will be set at the exact same price whether or not tax payer money is used. Yes it is a subsidy, but not to the owners - to the fans. It allows ticket prices to be significantly less and actually make it affordable. You would need to add over $50 per ticket per game (or $2,000 for a family of four) to every ticket holder just to try and cover the stadium cost. Then every 5-10 years add in renovations and it goes up to $75-$100 per ticket. With that you factor in other increased costs and basically you price the fans out of going and it becomes more Corporate event - see Dallas games. That is the people you are subsidizing - the money is coming from there. Libraries and roads are far from free - without public subsidies they could not exist. They provide services to limited groups of people, but the money comes from public money donated by all. The same goes for schools - you have to pay school tax - even if you do not have any children - you are subsidizing other people to attend school. Just as many people get something out of having the Bills remain in Buffalo as utilize the museums and libraries that get huge amounts of public money. Is it worth it? That is for you to decide - for me it is not a question. The Bills staying in Buffalo means a ton to me and I think it is worth every penny to keep them here. As I said - I would be fine if they wanted to put 2.5 Billion in public funds and make a domed downtown stadium with new infrastructure for the city, but 1 billion in OP is fine also. You last point is just ignorant. The ticket prices will be set to maximize profit, but if the Pegula’s pay for the stadium privately - then they also need to recoup that money. It was discussed a bunch previously that fees and significant PSLs would be needed to cover the cost and with the current stadium client - the cost would price out huge groups of fans. Spreading the billion dollars across NYS allows ticket prices to remain affordable. Again the other piece you never address is why if this is such a loser idea to mix public and private funding - why to every city that loses a team turn right around and suddenly find a way to 100% public fund a stadium to lure the next team. All of these cities must find something redeeming about having NFL football in the community. They all clamor to find funds once they call the bluff and the team moves. So I am not worried - the county and state are going to come together - they will cover 60-70% of the cost. The Bills and the NFL will pick up 30-40% - the stadium will be smaller and the tickets slight higher to recoup their payment and the Bills will be local for another 30-40 years. Edited September 4, 2021 by Rochesterfan 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyal2dagame Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: Yes it is a subsidy, but not to the owners - to the fans. It allows ticket prices to be significantly less and actually make it affordable. You would need to add over $50 per ticket per game (or $2,000) to every ticket holder just to try and cover the stadium cost. Then every 5-10 years add in renovations and it goes up to $75-$100 per ticket. With that you factor in other increased costs and basically you price the fans out of going and it becomes more Corporate event - see Dallas games. That is the people you are subsidizing - the money is coming from there. Libraries and roads are far from free - without public subsidies they could not exist. They provide services to limited groups of people, but the money comes from public money donated by all. The same goes for schools - you have to pay school tax - even if you do not have any children - you are subsidizing other people to attend school. Just as many people get something out of having the Bills remain in Buffalo as utilize the museums and libraries that get huge amounts of public money. Is it worth it? That is for you to decide - for me it is not a question. The Bills staying in Buffalo means a ton to me and I think it is worth every penny to keep them here. As I said - I would be fine if they wanted to put 2.5 Billion in public funds and make a domed downtown stadium with new infrastructure for the city, but 1 billion in OP is fine also. You last point is just ignorant. The ticket prices will be set to maximize profit, but if the Pegula’s pay for the stadium privately - then they also need to recoup that money. It was discussed a bunch previously that fees and significant PSLs would be needed to cover the cost and with the current stadium client - the cost would price out huge groups of fans. Spreading the billion dollars across NYS allows ticket prices to remain affordable. Again the other piece you never address is why if this is such a loser idea to mix public and private funding - why to every city that loses a team turn right around and suddenly find a way to 100% public fund a stadium to lure the next team. All of these cities must find something redeeming about having NFL football in the community. They all clamor to find funds once they call the bluff and the team moves. So I am not worried - the county and state are going to come together - they will cover 60-70% of the cost. The Bills and the NFL will pick up 30-40% - the stadium will be smaller and the tickets slight higher to recoup their payment and the Bills will be local for another 30-40 years. There should be a mic drop emoji. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 4 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: Yes it is a subsidy, but not to the owners - to the fans. It allows ticket prices to be significantly less and actually make it affordable. You would need to add over $50 per ticket per game (or $2,000) to every ticket holder just to try and cover the stadium cost. Then every 5-10 years add in renovations and it goes up to $75-$100 per ticket. With that you factor in other increased costs and basically you price the fans out of going and it becomes more Corporate event - see Dallas games. That is the people you are subsidizing - the money is coming from there. Libraries and roads are far from free - without public subsidies they could not exist. They provide services to limited groups of people, but the money comes from public money donated by all. The same goes for schools - you have to pay school tax - even if you do not have any children - you are subsidizing other people to attend school. Just as many people get something out of having the Bills remain in Buffalo as utilize the museums and libraries that get huge amounts of public money. Is it worth it? That is for you to decide - for me it is not a question. The Bills staying in Buffalo means a ton to me and I think it is worth every penny to keep them here. As I said - I would be fine if they wanted to put 2.5 Billion in public funds and make a domed downtown stadium with new infrastructure for the city, but 1 billion in OP is fine also. You last point is just ignorant. The ticket prices will be set to maximize profit, but if the Pegula’s pay for the stadium privately - then they also need to recoup that money. It was discussed a bunch previously that fees and significant PSLs would be needed to cover the cost and with the current stadium client - the cost would price out huge groups of fans. Spreading the billion dollars across NYS allows ticket prices to remain affordable. Again the other piece you never address is why if this is such a loser idea to mix public and private funding - why to every city that loses a team turn right around and suddenly find a way to 100% public fund a stadium to lure the next team. All of these cities must find something redeeming about having NFL football in the community. They all clamor to find funds once they call the bluff and the team moves. So I am not worried - the county and state are going to come together - they will cover 60-70% of the cost. The Bills and the NFL will pick up 30-40% - the stadium will be smaller and the tickets slight higher to recoup their payment and the Bills will be local for another 30-40 years. Your math doesn’t check out here in a number of ways. $2000 per ticket holder, and 70k ticket holders, only gets you to $140M. $50 per ticket holder doesn’t get you to $2000 or anywhere close to it. To your overall mapping of affordability. It’s almost as if the League and NFL franchises want to the public to help cover costs to build a stadium that doesn’t make any economic sense. Like at all. Teams and the league are asking for structures that don’t actually fit their business model or local economics. In any other industry, something like this would never be considered. Also roads, libraries, parks etc. provide a service. The NFL does not. I can’t go have a picnic at the 50 yard line today, or any other day for that matter. But I can walk down the sidewalks I can go get a book. I pay taxes, I get a service. With a stadium, I pay taxes, I can buy a ticket? I don’t even get free parking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyal2dagame Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 1 minute ago, Mango said: To your overall mapping of affordability. It’s almost as if the League and NFL franchises want to the public to help cover costs to build a stadium that doesn’t make any economic sense. Like at all. Teams and the league are asking for structures that don’t actually fit their business model or local economics. In any other industry, something like this would never be considered. It fits local economics if you want to stay relevant with a pro sports team in the most popular sport in the US and A. Also, in every other industry, where hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars are involved, it is considered. Free power, no taxes for 20+ years. Ect.... it's no different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 To small. I am not paying for this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 4 minutes ago, Mango said: Your math doesn’t check out here in a number of ways. $2000 per ticket holder, and 70k ticket holders, only gets you to $140M. $50 per ticket holder doesn’t get you to $2000 or anywhere close to it. To your overall mapping of affordability. It’s almost as if the League and NFL franchises want to the public to help cover costs to build a stadium that doesn’t make any economic sense. Like at all. Teams and the league are asking for structures that don’t actually fit their business model or local economics. In any other industry, something like this would never be considered. Also roads, libraries, parks etc. provide a service. The NFL does not. I can’t go have a picnic at the 50 yard line today, or any other day for that matter. But I can walk down the sidewalks I can go get a book. I pay taxes, I get a service. With a stadium, I pay taxes, I can buy a ticket? I don’t even get free parking. Sorry the 2000 was related to a family of four - which was why it was in parentheses. Yes it is almost like the government is asked to cover the costs of a ton of things that no longer fit. Tons of industry and business and wealthy stakeholders get tons of handouts and this is just another one. Companies all over get huge tax breaks to “create jobs”, but if those jobs never develop - they get additional tax breaks because they lost money. Can you go have a picnic in the Zoo at no charge - they get tons of public funding and you have to pay to attend their service and it is a much smaller group that uses and enjoys the service. How about the Buffalo Museum of Science - are you allowed to just walk in there at no charge when ever you want? I know - the post office - you can mail all your letters for free and borrow a truck (ala Neumann) to transport stuff when you want. How about your local school - can you just walk in and have a seat during lunch and get some food with the kids - you pay your taxes - you are entitled to free food right? Nope - all of those things provide a service and rely on yearly subsidies/taxes to remain open, but you still have to pay to use them - just like the stadium. Maybe all of those things and libraries and adult rec centers etc. are all things that make no economic sense and should be eliminated based on your second paragraph, but they provide a sense community to many people - the cost point is different and the stakes much higher for something’s over others. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 12 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: Sorry the 2000 was related to a family of four - which was why it was in parentheses. Yes it is almost like the government is asked to cover the costs of a ton of things that no longer fit. Tons of industry and business and wealthy stakeholders get tons of handouts and this is just another one. Companies all over get huge tax breaks to “create jobs”, but if those jobs never develop - they get additional tax breaks because they lost money. Can you go have a picnic in the Zoo at no charge - they get tons of public funding and you have to pay to attend their service and it is a much smaller group that uses and enjoys the service. How about the Buffalo Museum of Science - are you allowed to just walk in there at no charge when ever you want? I know - the post office - you can mail all your letters for free and borrow a truck (ala Neumann) to transport stuff when you want. How about your local school - can you just walk in and have a seat during lunch and get some food with the kids - you pay your taxes - you are entitled to free food right? Nope - all of those things provide a service and rely on yearly subsidies/taxes to remain open, but you still have to pay to use them - just like the stadium. Maybe all of those things and libraries and adult rec centers etc. are all things that make no economic sense and should be eliminated based on your second paragraph, but they provide a sense community to many people - the cost point is different and the stakes much higher for something’s over others. You can’t actually believe some of the points your making right? The post office…compared to an NFL franchise? There are people around this country who would never receive mail if it weren’t a public service. It’s a necessity. A bunch of non-profits dedicated to science and advocacy…compared to a family who sat in front of their employees and said one of their main tenants was to maintain family life style. You have to pay for a stamp so what’s the difference between that and Paying Kim and Terry? Gotta pay to see the Pandas so we can keep feeding them. So we might as well pay Kim and Terry. I would rather give the Buffalo Zoo and the Science Museum $1.4B than give it to the Pegula’s. I would rather invest it in schools. Hell, I would rather insulate sleeping bags full of dollar bills and give those sleeping bags to the homeless than give $1.4B to Terry and Kim. I think it might actually be more bang for your buck. NFL stadiums have too many bells and whistles. They don’t need need 10 LED walls scattered around. They cost too much. And at scale should not be publicly funded. That goes for any city. I get they provide some immeasurable value to our lives. I actually don’t hate that the state/county helps out. But having public funds brochure anywhere near $1B is absurd. For value received back I think a 70/30 (Private/Public) split is super fair. And the Pegula’s came in at 100%. Ha! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 3 hours ago, Mango said: You can’t actually believe some of the points your making right? The post office…compared to an NFL franchise? There are people around this country who would never receive mail if it weren’t a public service. It’s a necessity. A bunch of non-profits dedicated to science and advocacy…compared to a family who sat in front of their employees and said one of their main tenants was to maintain family life style. You have to pay for a stamp so what’s the difference between that and Paying Kim and Terry? Gotta pay to see the Pandas so we can keep feeding them. So we might as well pay Kim and Terry. I would rather give the Buffalo Zoo and the Science Museum $1.4B than give it to the Pegula’s. I would rather invest it in schools. Hell, I would rather insulate sleeping bags full of dollar bills and give those sleeping bags to the homeless than give $1.4B to Terry and Kim. I think it might actually be more bang for your buck. NFL stadiums have too many bells and whistles. They don’t need need 10 LED walls scattered around. They cost too much. And at scale should not be publicly funded. That goes for any city. I get they provide some immeasurable value to our lives. I actually don’t hate that the state/county helps out. But having public funds brochure anywhere near $1B is absurd. For value received back I think a 70/30 (Private/Public) split is super fair. And the Pegula’s came in at 100%. Ha! I totally disagree and I think the issue is you look at it as giving the Pegula’s the money and I don’t. I look at it as subsidizing every person that attends every game for the life of the stadium. Just like the zoo, museums, libraries, etc. are funded by public equity for the enjoyment of the community- so to is the stadium funded by public equity for the enjoyment of the fans. The public portion paid for via taxes, fees, hotel surcharges, etc - all go to fund the building of what essentially becomes a county owned req center that is used by 60 - 70,000 and much like the town built req center in our community - it charges a yearly membership fee. That membership fee is what goes to the Pegula’s and by the public providing funding - they are able to keep the cost down. There is no rule on what teams have to charge - so if the Pegula’s wanted to increase profit - there was nothing stopping them from raising ticket prices to league medium and pocketing the extra. They have not shown the interest in doing that and screwing the fan base up to this point. They have kept the price point low and basically have said that to maintain that price point that the fans want - we need a significant amount of public funding. The Pegula’s have maintained all along that there must be a public and private mix of funding. The 100% bull was all shown to be part of poor reporting as was the garbage about Austin Tx. In the end, where the split ends up - is what will decide the future price point for tickets - the more public money - the lower the tickets and PSLs. It is really pretty simple. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 30 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: I totally disagree and I think the issue is you look at it as giving the Pegula’s the money and I don’t. I look at it as subsidizing every person that attends every game for the life of the stadium. Just like the zoo, museums, libraries, etc. are funded by public equity for the enjoyment of the community- so to is the stadium funded by public equity for the enjoyment of the fans. The public portion paid for via taxes, fees, hotel surcharges, etc - all go to fund the building of what essentially becomes a county owned req center that is used by 60 - 70,000 and much like the town built req center in our community - it charges a yearly membership fee. That membership fee is what goes to the Pegula’s and by the public providing funding - they are able to keep the cost down. There is no rule on what teams have to charge - so if the Pegula’s wanted to increase profit - there was nothing stopping them from raising ticket prices to league medium and pocketing the extra. They have not shown the interest in doing that and screwing the fan base up to this point. They have kept the price point low and basically have said that to maintain that price point that the fans want - we need a significant amount of public funding. The Pegula’s have maintained all along that there must be a public and private mix of funding. The 100% bull was all shown to be part of poor reporting as was the garbage about Austin Tx. In the end, where the split ends up - is what will decide the future price point for tickets - the more public money - the lower the tickets and PSLs. It is really pretty simple. The Bills are not a public service like the post office or libraries. It isn’t a public good like the zoo or museums that are owned by the city. It’s not a public equity, it’s going to cost the county about $10M to knock it down, after it sits there for 20 years rotting away and costing money during that time too. It’s not a county owned rec center. I went to the rec center after school as a kid. My cousins play softball 3 days a week at a rec center. Hosting the Monsignor Martin Championship game between St Joe’s and Canisius once a year does not constitute a rec center. Are we going to start running T-Ball tournaments in the summer at the stadium? Maybe a “lock in” for the middle schoolers one weekend. You know rec center stuff. Maybe we can donate an old fooz ball table for kids to play with in their after school programs. Zoo’s, museums, libraries, orchestras, etc. are constantly fundraising to keep the lights on. The Bills provide a value to Buffalo that isn’t measurable. That is fine. I don’t mind public funding. But let’s stop calling this a public good, community equity, or anything similar regarding the postal service, animal conservation, or a science museum. Because it’s not. The Pegula can’t charge league average pricing because Buffalo is poor. 70k seats at $300 for the 300’s isn’t sustainable here. You can’t sell that many tickets that often in this town at that price. That’s the only reason. Not because they’re cutting us a break. And it’s not because of county money from the 1970’s to build the place. The Ralph has cost the county about $500M to build and upgrade in 2021 dollars. (Just based on going through past upgrades and costs) If a $1.4B stadium doesn’t make fiscal sense for the price point of ticket sales for private investment. Maybe we don’t build a $1.4B stadium…where is the extra $1B in costs coming from. Pegula can come to the table with a stadium that makes sense for him and what he would be able to afford himself and still profit. The county/state are welcome to chip in at that point. A good investment is always a good investment regardless of public subsidy. You and I are having a conversation about the county chipping in $1B to keep ticket prices to an NFL game affordable for people in Buffalo. Maybe that means it’s not a great investment in the first place. And that is my biggest deterrent here. If it’s a good investment, the Pegula’s don’t need our help. They can cover what’s profitable. But hey, I love the Bills. Let’s get the county/state to chip and we can get some minor access for HS football games and like 2 concerts a year. But when we talk about covering the whole bill, or most of the Bill. And doing it to subsidize ticket costs? We are talking about throwing a whole lot of public money at a terrible investment. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBills1998 Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 18 minutes ago, Mango said: The Bills are not a public service like the post office or libraries. It isn’t a public good like the zoo or museums that are owned by the city. It’s not a public equity, it’s going to cost the county about $10M to knock it down, after it sits there for 20 years rotting away and costing money during that time too. It’s not a county owned rec center. I went to the rec center after school as a kid. My cousins play softball 3 days a week at a rec center. Hosting the Monsignor Martin Championship game between St Joe’s and Canisius once a year does not constitute a rec center. Are we going to start running T-Ball tournaments in the summer at the stadium? Maybe a “lock in” for the middle schoolers one weekend. You know rec center stuff. Maybe we can donate an old fooz ball table for kids to play with in their after school programs. Zoo’s, museums, libraries, orchestras, etc. are constantly fundraising to keep the lights on. The Bills provide a value to Buffalo that isn’t measurable. That is fine. I don’t mind public funding. But let’s stop calling this a public good, community equity, or anything similar regarding the postal service, animal conservation, or a science museum. Because it’s not. The Pegula can’t charge league average pricing because Buffalo is poor. 70k seats at $300 for the 300’s isn’t sustainable here. You can’t sell that many tickets that often in this town at that price. That’s the only reason. Not because they’re cutting us a break. And it’s not because of county money from the 1970’s to build the place. The Ralph has cost the county about $500M to build and upgrade in 2021 dollars. (Just based on going through past upgrades and costs) If a $1.4B stadium doesn’t make fiscal sense for the price point of ticket sales for private investment. Maybe we don’t build a $1.4B stadium…where is the extra $1B in costs coming from. Pegula can come to the table with a stadium that makes sense for him and what he would be able to afford himself and still profit. The county/state are welcome to chip in at that point. A good investment is always a good investment regardless of public subsidy. You and I are having a conversation about the county chipping in $1B to keep ticket prices to an NFL game affordable for people in Buffalo. Maybe that means it’s not a great investment in the first place. And that is my biggest deterrent here. If it’s a good investment, the Pegula’s don’t need our help. They can cover what’s profitable. But hey, I love the Bills. Let’s get the county/state to chip and we can get some minor access for HS football games and like 2 concerts a year. But when we talk about covering the whole bill, or most of the Bill. And doing it to subsidize ticket costs? We are talking about throwing a whole lot of public money at a terrible investment. But it’s not a terrible investment it’s what’s going to help keep the team here in WNY for generations to come. Taxpayers are going to have to pay for a good portion of the stadium. Erie county officials and NYS officials know this. Which is why they will work with the Pegulas on getting this deal done. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Mango said: The Bills are not a public service like the post office or libraries. It isn’t a public good like the zoo or museums that are owned by the city. It’s not a public equity, it’s going to cost the county about $10M to knock it down, after it sits there for 20 years rotting away and costing money during that time too. It’s not a county owned rec center. I went to the rec center after school as a kid. My cousins play softball 3 days a week at a rec center. Hosting the Monsignor Martin Championship game between St Joe’s and Canisius once a year does not constitute a rec center. Are we going to start running T-Ball tournaments in the summer at the stadium? Maybe a “lock in” for the middle schoolers one weekend. You know rec center stuff. Maybe we can donate an old fooz ball table for kids to play with in their after school programs. Zoo’s, museums, libraries, orchestras, etc. are constantly fundraising to keep the lights on. The Bills provide a value to Buffalo that isn’t measurable. That is fine. I don’t mind public funding. But let’s stop calling this a public good, community equity, or anything similar regarding the postal service, animal conservation, or a science museum. Because it’s not. The Pegula can’t charge league average pricing because Buffalo is poor. 70k seats at $300 for the 300’s isn’t sustainable here. You can’t sell that many tickets that often in this town at that price. That’s the only reason. Not because they’re cutting us a break. And it’s not because of county money from the 1970’s to build the place. The Ralph has cost the county about $500M to build and upgrade in 2021 dollars. (Just based on going through past upgrades and costs) If a $1.4B stadium doesn’t make fiscal sense for the price point of ticket sales for private investment. Maybe we don’t build a $1.4B stadium…where is the extra $1B in costs coming from. Pegula can come to the table with a stadium that makes sense for him and what he would be able to afford himself and still profit. The county/state are welcome to chip in at that point. A good investment is always a good investment regardless of public subsidy. You and I are having a conversation about the county chipping in $1B to keep ticket prices to an NFL game affordable for people in Buffalo. Maybe that means it’s not a great investment in the first place. And that is my biggest deterrent here. If it’s a good investment, the Pegula’s don’t need our help. They can cover what’s profitable. But hey, I love the Bills. Let’s get the county/state to chip and we can get some minor access for HS football games and like 2 concerts a year. But when we talk about covering the whole bill, or most of the Bill. And doing it to subsidize ticket costs? We are talking about throwing a whole lot of public money at a terrible investment. It is not an investment - Don’t pretend we are talking about an investment. Most public funds go to support money losing endeavors. And make up for the shortfalls. Whether it is zoos, museums, postal service, or the Bills. If you don’t get a rec center - let me explain - the town built and paid for a swimming, exercise, and weightlifting complex with local tax money, but I even as a resident do not get to use it. I have to buy a yearly membership to “join” - the membership dues don’t even cover the cost of the staff and management- so every year additional taxes go to cover the overage. It will never, ever pay for itself, but it is a nice community equity. As to your fundraising point - You know who else is constantly fundraising - the Bills and their foundations helping to make money for tons of needy charities, but in your world all will be fine because we take that 1.4 billion and give it to all of the needy charities, the schools, the libraries, etc and all is fine. Except that is not what will happen - that 1.4 billion will go to a tax break to help a company like Amazon or Walmart build a nice NYC headquarters that they say will bring X number of jobs, but those won’t materialize and wham everything here is the same minus the Bills. You know what would really tick you off though - if the Bills fund raised for themselves rather than for others, but that is essentially what you are asking. So In the end for you - don’t build the stadium and don’t complain when they leave. And most of all don’t complain when right after they leave - the city suddenly finds a way to build a 2.5 billion dollar stadium downtown to try and lure another team back. The same way St. Louis, Baltimore, Cleveland, Houston, and Oakland all did when they lost teams. The good thing is the Pegula’s, the state, and the county already understand and are working on a public/private mix that will cover the cost. It is going to be upsetting for some because in the end the majority will most likely be public and it is going to build a stadium in OP that is a public service for the people of Buffalo and the surrounding areas. It will not be built to ever see a profit and it will be supported by future public money for upgrades and renovations and it will belong to the county - so they will have to dispose of it in the future, but it will be happening. Edited September 5, 2021 by Rochesterfan 1 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, Rochesterfan said: It is not an investment - Don’t pretend we are talking about an investment. Most public funds go to support money losing endeavors. And make up for the shortfalls. Whether it is zoos, museums, postal service, or the Bills. If you don’t get a rec center - let me explain - the town built and paid for a swimming, exercise, and weightlifting complex with local tax money, but I even as a resident do not get to use it. I have to buy a yearly membership to “join” - the membership dues don’t even cover the cost of the staff and management- so every year additional taxes go to cover the overage. It will never, ever pay for itself, but it is a nice community equity. As to your fundraising point - You know who else is constantly fundraising - the Bills and their foundations helping to make money for tons of needy charities, but in your world all will be fine because we take that 1.4 billion and give it to all of the needy charities, the schools, the libraries, etc and all is fine. Except that is not what will happen - that 1.4 billion will go to a tax break to help a company like Amazon or Walmart build a nice NYC headquarters that they say will bring X number of jobs, but those won’t materialize and wham everything here is the same minus the Bills. You know what would really tick you off though - if the Bills fund raised for themselves rather than for others, but that is essentially what you are asking. So In the end for you - don’t build the stadium and don’t complain when they leave. And most of all don’t complain when right after they leave - the city suddenly finds a way to build a 2.5 billion dollar stadium downtown to try and lure another team back. The same way St. Louis, Baltimore, Cleveland, Houston, and Oakland all did when they lost teams. The good thing is the Pegula’s, the state, and the county already understand and are working on a public/private mix that will cover the cost. It is going to be upsetting for some because in the end the majority will most likely be public and it is going to build a stadium in OP that is a public service for the people of Buffalo and the surrounding areas. It will not be built to ever see a profit and it will be supported by future public money for upgrades and renovations and it will belong to the county - so they will have to dispose of it in the future, but it will be happening. !). Zoos, the Postal Service and rec centers are not owned by billionaires. 2). Amazon wasn't offered billions for a new headquarters in the city. The were offered tax breaks. So that's money the state wouldn't have made, not money the state had to raise to cover a cost (and "give" to Amazon). If Amazon came and got huge tax breaks, it would have been incredibly beneficial to the city as 25,000 high earning employees would have been paying taxes, filling the area in new residential buildings, paying property taxes, supporting businesses, etc. Instead, the city got none of that. 3). Local politicians fought, and killed, the Amazon HQ deal, despite the massive benefits it would have brought...because it "looked bad" and they were miffed because the Mayor and the Governor excluded them. Those same downstate legislators would have to approve of funding for the Pegulas lifestyle support "rec center". Edited September 5, 2021 by Mr. WEO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Valley Bills Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 I would like to think in the end we will be somewhere in the middle as opposed to an all or nothing scenario. It's inevitable we are going to have to spend a lot of public money to keep the team but I don't think it's wrong to hope it can be done in a way that's fair to tax payers and has a wider benefit to the region rather than just 10 Bills games a year. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Ohio Valley Bills said: I would like to think in the end we will be somewhere in the middle as opposed to an all or nothing scenario. It's inevitable we are going to have to spend a lot of public money to keep the team but I don't think it's wrong to hope it can be done in a way that's fair to tax payers and has a wider benefit to the region rather than just 10 Bills games a year. If and when public money is a piece of the funding puzzle I guarantee the facility will host as many non-Bills related events as possible. There’s no way to know how many events that will be but any number is more than none. Done! Edited September 5, 2021 by SoCal Deek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 Like I have said before ultimately this is a NY/WNY taxpayer issue but I am a bit disappointed that the stadium will not become a showplace for the Buffalo downtown rejuvenation. As a former Buffalonian it is nice to hear all the positive input I get from people in the business/medical professions/university fields complimenting their trips or college experiences in Buffalo. I do want to say to the WNY residents that the image of Buffalo is changing toward the positive and a successful Buffalo Bills football team will only assist in that change. Although the chances of a downtown stadium seem all but gone don't discount the importance of an NFL team. As others have stated it does help to keep Buffalo relevant in the nations eyes. Good Luck in this venture and I do truly hope it works out for the best. I am back to WNY often now that I'm retired and I look forward to attending games in the new venue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 12 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: Like I have said before ultimately this is a NY/WNY taxpayer issue but I am a bit disappointed that the stadium will not become a showplace for the Buffalo downtown rejuvenation. As a former Buffalonian it is nice to hear all the positive input I get from people in the business/medical professions/university fields complimenting their trips or college experiences in Buffalo. I do want to say to the WNY residents that the image of Buffalo is changing toward the positive and a successful Buffalo Bills football team will only assist in that change. Although the chances of a downtown stadium seem all but gone don't discount the importance of an NFL team. As others have stated it does help to keep Buffalo relevant in the nations eyes. Good Luck in this venture and I do truly hope it works out for the best. I am back to WNY often now that I'm retired and I look forward to attending games in the new venue. Downtown is nice. But I am glad it’s not. It’s a huge footprint for a building that barely gets used. I’m pumped for the Buffalo downtown resurgence but it should stay on path the way it is and not take a bunch of great real estate for a stadium. Also Buffalo metro is still losing population. The “resurgence” of Buffalo is largely just the same people leaving the suburbs infilling the city. Which is good in some respects. But also a reshuffling. My better half and I talk about coming back a lot. But ultimately it’s tough. There isn’t a lot of work. You catch on at a handful of large employers and find a fulfilling career path or you don’t. Not a whole lot of options I live in the capital region now. Not a ton of work. BUT! I can manage territories that include Philly, NYC, NJ, Boston. A lot more opportunity. Rooting for the city and very much keeping my eye out to return! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 17 minutes ago, Mango said: Downtown is nice. But I am glad it’s not. It’s a huge footprint for a building that barely gets used. I’m pumped for the Buffalo downtown resurgence but it should stay on path the way it is and not take a bunch of great real estate for a stadium. Also Buffalo metro is still losing population. The “resurgence” of Buffalo is largely just the same people leaving the suburbs infilling the city. Which is good in some respects. But also a reshuffling. My better half and I talk about coming back a lot. But ultimately it’s tough. There isn’t a lot of work. You catch on at a handful of large employers and find a fulfilling career path or you don’t. Not a whole lot of options I live in the capital region now. Not a ton of work. BUT! I can manage territories that include Philly, NYC, NJ, Boston. A lot more opportunity. Rooting for the city and very much keeping my eye out to return! There is some evidence that the population drain has stopped and may be reversing as the 2020 Census numbers come in. One thing I'm interested in is if the aged population demographics are changing and younger work aged people are increasing. I too have pondered a return to WNY now that I'm retired. I do wonder if in the near future a demographic change happens and a return to the Great Lakes areas are seen. Something as simple as proximity to water could fuel a change. It's getting to be a big issue out here in the West. Thanks for you reply. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: If and when public money is a piece of the funding puzzle I guarantee the facility will host as many non-Bills related events as possible. There’s no way to know how many events that will be but any number is more than none. Done! Ralph Wilson stadium was publicly funded And you see nothing going on there besides a couple of concerts... Flag football League .. It's going to be 99% football use... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: Ralph Wilson stadium was publicly funded And you see nothing going on there besides a couple of concerts... Flag football League .. It's going to be 99% football use... Isn't Wing Fest going on today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 Just now, ColoradoBills said: Isn't Wing Fest going on today? First time ever there ... It's been at Sahlens field forever So that makes like 3 concerts , 1 event and a flag football League 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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