Bermuda Triangle Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said: i’ll answer that I would pick the Bills and Allen right now. But you’re moving the goalposts so wildly right now I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. I'll make it as blunt and concise as possible: in his third year of his NFL career, do you think that Jackson is a good passer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Bermuda Triangle said: Do you think that any team in the league wouldn't take Brown, Boykin or Duvernay if the Ravens cut them loose? The "lack of weapons" excuse is unique as far as the Ravens are concerned - how do we know if these guys suck, or if they're being underutilized because of the Ravens' offensive system or Jackson's skillset? How do you explain John Brown's stats with Flacco at QB in '18 vs. with Jackson at QB? Or John Brown's in '19 with the Bills or in '18 with the Ravens? How do you explain Snead's reception count being halved after the '18 season? OTOH, the following WR corps suck more than BAL: Jax, Washington, NYJ, NYG, NE So 3 of the worst teams in the league, and two bad teams. Good work obliterating your own argument lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bermuda Triangle Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Not very high. Nobody is disputing that. Which is why they are left with draft picks and washed up vets. Ok, but why is it that Baltimore wouldn't be high on your list of preferred destinations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Just now, Bermuda Triangle said: Do you think that any team in the league wouldn't take Brown, Boykin or Duvernay if the Ravens cut them loose? The "lack of weapons" excuse is unique as far as the Ravens are concerned - how do we know if these guys suck, or if they're being underutilized because of the Ravens' offensive system or Jackson's skillset? How do you explain John Brown's stats with Flacco at QB in '18 vs. with Jackson at QB? Or John Brown's in '19 with the Bills or in '18 with the Ravens? How do you explain Snead's reception count being halved after the '18 season? OTOH, the following WR corps suck more than BAL: Jax, Washington, NYJ, NYG, NE I should’ve known you would reply with this trash. I won’t reply after this. yes, teams would sign those WRs.....teams carry 6-7 WRs. Just because they would sign them, doesn’t mean that they are good weapons. It means that they are good enough to make a roster. BIG difference. I have already stated that the system and QB have something to do with a WRs productivity. we don’t “know” if they would succeed or not succeed in any other system. We KNOW THAT THEY CAN’T BEAT OUT WILLIE SNEAD. time to focus on the chiefs game. Continue on with whatever you’re trying to do here, just don’t include me 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaadThingsMan Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 hour ago, SCBills said: Where do they believe the Ravens will find this WR1? They loaded up on one of the best defenses in football. They drafted a top end RB. They have spent on OL. They have a top end TE. They have to pay Lamar soon. Can’t afford give the guy everything.... They went for it last off-season thinking this was their year to make a run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Boy Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 hour ago, SCBills said: Where do they believe the Ravens will find this WR1? They loaded up on one of the best defenses in football. They drafted a top end RB. They have spent on OL. They have a top end TE. They have to pay Lamar soon. Can’t afford give the guy everything.... Love that they are going to have to make a decision on him. Either overpay, start over or get caught in mediocrity with a mediocre QB. A couple years out the Browns and Bungles may become the perennial top dogs in that division. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bermuda Triangle Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, FireChans said: So 3 of the worst teams in the league, and two bad teams. Good work obliterating your own argument lol I was asked a question and I offered a direct answer. More than your cohorts in this thread are willing to do. Do we know that Boykin and Duvernay are bad, or do we not know enough about them? If the latter, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Just now, Bermuda Triangle said: Ok, but why is it that Baltimore wouldn't be high on your list of preferred destinations? Because their QB is not a great thrower to the outside and they are a run first team. Both things I haven't disputed at any stage. But his passing game weapons aside from Andrews and Brown are not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JESSEFEFFER Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Not very high. Nobody is disputing that. Which is why they are left with draft picks and washed up vets. What has Josh got to do with this? Josh is in a different tier altogether than Jackson. He has quite a bit to do with this. As a young, developing and supposedly inaccurate passer Josh was still getting big production from his WRs. By contrast, the young, developing Lamar doesn't generate much production from any of his WRs. Most likely it's because the offense designed to let Lamar thrive does not do the same for the WRs. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bermuda Triangle Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 minute ago, NewEra said: I should’ve known you would reply with this trash. I won’t reply after this. yes, teams would sign those WRs.....teams carry 6-7 WRs. Just because they would sign them, doesn’t mean that they are good weapons. It means that they are good enough to make a roster. BIG difference. I have already stated that the system and QB have something to do with a WRs productivity. we don’t “know” if they would succeed or not succeed in any other system. We KNOW THAT THEY CAN’T BEAT OUT WILLIE SNEAD. time to focus on the chiefs game. Continue on with whatever you’re trying to do here, just don’t include me Didn;t read your post, but assume it's crap like the rest of your drivel in this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Bermuda Triangle said: Do we know that Boykin and Duvernay are bad, or do we not know enough about them? If the latter, why? We know the Ravens would rather play Snead and Bryant. Who we know plenty about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoPoy88 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said: I'll make it as blunt and concise as possible: in his third year of his NFL career, do you think that Jackson is a good passer? I think he’s good, not great. He’s not a complete passer by any stretch. He has big struggles throwing outside the numbers. still doesn’t mean those fans are wrong. WR seems very under par in Baltimore. There are complaints about Roman’s passing offense as well - is Roman limiting his schemes to play to Jackson’s limitations, or is Roman’s passing offense just not that great? I think those are valid questions for Ravens fans to ask. Since we asked the same things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Just now, Bermuda Triangle said: I was asked a question and I offered a direct answer. More than your cohorts in this thread are willing to do. Do we know that Boykin and Duvernay are bad, or do we not know enough about them? If the latter, why? We know they can't beat out Willie Snead, who kinda sucks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said: He has quite a bit to do with this. As a young, developing and supposedly inaccurate passer Josh was still getting big production from his WRs. By contrast, the young, developing Lamar doesn't generate much production from any of his WRs. Most likely it's because the offense designed to let Lamar thrive does not do the same for the WRs. None of this is in dispute. What is in dispute is whether the Ravens have done a good job of giving him receivers who are going to maximise what he can do. I repeat what I said at the very start of this thread. A lot of it is on Lamar Jackson and his limitations. But at the same time his receiving weapons are not great apart from Andrews and Brown. It is both playing a part in the Ravens passing O being mediocre. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said: He has quite a bit to do with this. As a young, developing and supposedly inaccurate passer Josh was still getting big production from his WRs. By contrast, the young, developing Lamar doesn't generate much production from any of his WRs. Most likely it's because the offense designed to let Lamar thrive does not do the same for the WRs. Would love to know the definition of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLFan Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Adam said: I think he has a lot of talent but is being hurt by an offensive coordinator who has an outdated philosophy and a weak group of WR's. Swap him and Allen and I think Jackson does very well with our roster and Daboll's ofense. Do I want to see that- absolutely not! There is no way Jackson would succeed in Dabols offense. No way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bermuda Triangle Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 I hope Allen Robinson signs with Baltimore this off-season, so that this time next season, we can compare his '21 stats with those he had with Trubisky and Foles in '20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, FLFan said: There is no way Jackson would succeed in Dabols offense. No way. I agree with that. He would look awful. All these people saying Baltimore should move on from Roman are dead wrong IMO. If you do that you might as well move off Jackson. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Just now, Bermuda Triangle said: I hope Allen Robinson signs with Baltimore this off-season, so that this time next season, we can compare his '21 stats with those he had with Trubisky and Foles in '20. I hope the Ravens don't get better. But then again, I'm a Bills fan, not a Lamar Jackson hater. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Bermuda Triangle said: I hope Allen Robinson signs with Baltimore this off-season, so that this time next season, we can compare his '21 stats with those he had with Trubisky and Foles in '20. If they fail with Allen Robinson that is a totally different thing than failing with Dez Bryant and Myles Boykin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bermuda Triangle Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: We know the Ravens would rather play Snead and Bryant. Who we know plenty about. Bryant had 12 targets and 6 catches in 7 games. Boykin had 36 targets and 22 catches in 17 games. Duvernay had 26 targets and 24 catches & rushes in 17 games. Seems like Boykin and Duvernay were more productive than was Bryant. 6 minutes ago, FireChans said: I hope the Ravens don't get better. But then again, I'm a Bills fan, not a Lamar Jackson hater. I don't "hate" Jackson, it's just pathetic to see "Bills fans" make excuse after excuse for Jackson. Same "fans" who probably ripped Allen in season's past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said: Bryant had 12 targets and 6 catches in 7 games. Boykin had 36 targets and 22 catches in 17 games. Duvernay had 26 targets and 24 catches & rushes in 17 games. Seems like Boykin and Duvernay were more productive than was Bryant. I don't "hate" Jackson, it's just pathetic to see "Bills fans" make excuse after excuse for Jackson. Same "fans" who probably ripped Allen in season's past. Yes. I would expect they did. Bryant is utterly done. That group of receivers is not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 9 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said: Bryant had 12 targets and 6 catches in 7 games. Boykin had 36 targets and 22 catches in 17 games. Duvernay had 26 targets and 24 catches & rushes in 17 games. Seems like Boykin and Duvernay were more productive than was Bryant. I don't "hate" Jackson, it's just pathetic to see "Bills fans" make excuse after excuse for Jackson. Same "fans" who probably ripped Allen in season's past. Pretty sure most folks in this thread have admitted that LJ has deficiencies as a passer. You're arguing with yourself at this point. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Doc said: It’s reputation. Everybody jumped on the Lamar bandwagon after his MVP season and are refusing to jump off...yet. Just like some don’t really want to give Josh credit for being a great quarterback...yet. Winning MVP is a big deal. He had a tremendous season last year. Should they give up on him? Is there any credible football person not giving Josh credit for being a great QB. Everyone has him in the MVP conversation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Mike Schopp saw his life flash in front of his eyes when Lamar went down. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsfan1972 Posted January 17, 2021 Author Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said: Bryant had 12 targets and 6 catches in 7 games. Boykin had 36 targets and 22 catches in 17 games. Duvernay had 26 targets and 24 catches & rushes in 17 games. Seems like Boykin and Duvernay were more productive than was Bryant. I don't "hate" Jackson, it's just pathetic to see "Bills fans" make excuse after excuse for Jackson. Same "fans" who probably ripped Allen in season's past. He doesn't throw & is not overly accurate. Is he a great runner & dynamic.... Yes..... I posted this earlier today.... https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/17258/willie-snead-iv The thread was based on what I expect many analysts and articles that will continue to defend Lamar. If Allen threw that pick 6, it would have been a different narrative. Edited January 17, 2021 by Billsfan1972 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 35 minutes ago, FLFan said: There is no way Jackson would succeed in Dabols offense. No way. Disagreed. It clearly wouldn't look the same as it does with Allen's, but I think Jackson is a capable passer. He needs an offense with far better design to take advantage of talent, and more talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, klos63 said: Winning MVP is a big deal. He had a tremendous season last year. Should they give up on him? Is there any credible football person not giving Josh credit for being a great QB. Everyone has him in the MVP conversation. It depends. Is he going to bring a championship to them or just be a regular season hero? Do you pay a regular season hero 40-50 million dollars? I expect even his regular season hero slides as more teams play like our D did. Same thing that happened to SF. The window is closing. If it were me, I would pick up the 5th year option and see how that year plays out. Once they start paying a QB that kind of dough, the other parts of the team slide off. Such as that defense. Is he still going to win as many games? I think not. Edited January 17, 2021 by Scott7975 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Just now, Scott7975 said: It depends. Is he going to bring a championship to them or just be a regular season hero? Do you pay a regular season hero 40-50 million dollars? He won a playoff game this year. Hard to say he has no chance of bringing a championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 23 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said: I hope Allen Robinson signs with Baltimore this off-season, so that this time next season, we can compare his '21 stats with those he had with Trubisky and Foles in '20. Robinson is the best FA WR who will available and will have his pick of places to go. I'm not sure Baltimore is high on his list. 5 minutes ago, klos63 said: Winning MVP is a big deal. He had a tremendous season last year. Should they give up on him? Is there any credible football person not giving Josh credit for being a great QB. Everyone has him in the MVP conversation. Many have (begrudgingly, it seems) been forced to admit he's a great player now. But any time he throws a bad pass, usually it's mentioned how poorly he played in his first 2 years. Yet no one ever offers the excuses that are being given for Jackson (bad OC/OL/WRs) who is in his 3rd year. And obviously no you don't give up on him. But do you commit $40M/year on him, further making it harder to get those other things he needs? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoPoy88 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 28 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said: I don't "hate" Jackson, it's just pathetic to see "Bills fans" make excuse after excuse for Jackson. Same "fans" who probably ripped Allen in season's past. do yourself a favor and check the OP and the thread title again. These aren’t “bills fans’” excuses. The discussion is around what the Ravens fans and sympathizers are saying. or that was the discussion until you derailed it with your tangents. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 minute ago, FireChans said: He won a playoff game this year. Hard to say he has no chance of bringing a championship. I don't think he will ever win one. That said, I never said he has no chance. What I believe is he isnt going to perform as well going forward. If they think Roman is a problem and they dump him then he is likely to perform even worse than I expect. Also if they pay him they might not be able to pay some of that defense. If the defense gets worse on top of other teams starting to take away Lamars ability... the chips are stacked against him IMO. Either he can't develop or they don't care to develop his QB game. Either way, it's not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, Scott7975 said: It depends. Is he going to bring a championship to them or just be a regular season hero? Do you pay a regular season hero 40-50 million dollars? This is a very fair and pertinent question. I think the Josh contract is easy - pay what he wants. The Baker contract is easy - $35m per is the absolute ceiling and you do not go any higher. The Lamar contract? I dunno where you go with that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Just now, Scott7975 said: I don't think he will ever win one. That said, I never said he has no chance. What I believe is he isnt going to perform as well going forward. If they think Roman is a problem and they dump him then he is likely to perform even worse than I expect. Also if they pay him they might not be able to pay some of that defense. If the defense gets worse on top of other teams starting to take away Lamars ability... the chips are stacked against him IMO. Either he can't develop or they don't care to develop his QB game. Either way, it's not good. Lots of QB’s never win one. Most, in fact. What I do know is that Lamar has gone to the postseason every year since being drafted. He’s improved his playoff performance every year. Hard to declare “time to reset” when you lose a divisional matchup after getting concussed in the third Q. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, Doc said: Robinson is the best FA WR who will available and will have his pick of places to go. I'm not sure Baltimore is high on his list. Many have (begrudgingly, it seems) been forced to admit he's a great player now. But any time he throws a bad pass, usually it's mentioned how poorly he played in his first 2 years. Yet no one ever offers the excuses that are being given for Jackson (bad OC/OL/WRs) who is in his 3rd year. And obviously no you don't give up on him. But do you commit $40M/year on him, further making it harder to get those other things he needs? He definitely needs to pick up his game, but I really think Roman doesn't do him any favors. Always thought he was the most overrated OC. The offense is all built on running, they have an amazing running game and they draft a RB in the first round. Look what happened when Allen has more talent around him. We built up the Oline and our WR corps this offseason, got him great coaching... doesn't look like the Ravens have given Lamar the same type of help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, FireChans said: Lots of QB’s never win one. Most, in fact. What I do know is that Lamar has gone to the postseason every year since being drafted. He’s improved his playoff performance every year. Hard to declare “time to reset” when you lose a divisional matchup after getting concussed in the third Q. Its not hard to declare at all. Either the team believes he can win them a championship or they don't. If they believe, then they pay him. If they don't, then perhaps they don't pay him. I look at him and I don't believe. Not unless he keeps an amazing team around him which is tough to do after paying him. Again, I said I would pick up the 5th year option and let it play out. Then make a decision. Edited January 17, 2021 by Scott7975 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man with No Name Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 i think you give lamar what watson got. maybe throw an extra 10 million in there for the MVP. I think Watson is a bit underpaid. that contract would be appropriate for Lamar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffaloboyinATL Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said: He needs better receivers seems to be a tired excuse. That excuse holds no water. He was throwing to one of the best TE’s in the league. We just made a better play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Boo Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Buffalo03 said: Jerry Rice in his prime wouldn't do anything with Lamar Jackson as his QB No, but Moss and T.O. would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Just now, klos63 said: He definitely needs to pick up his game, but I really think Roman doesn't do him any favors. Always thought he was the most overrated OC. The offense is all built on running, they have an amazing running game and they draft a RB in the first round. Look what happened when Allen has more talent around him. We built up the Oline and our WR corps this offseason, got him great coaching... doesn't look like the Ravens have given Lamar the same type of help. I agree about Roman. But McD had no qualms jettisoning Dennison after 1 year despite the team making the playoffs. I'd start there. The problem is, can they get anyone better? As for play-makers, again they might help him get better, but will it make him get good enough? And will they be able to determine this before needing to make a decision on a new contract? Again, I'd hate to be in their shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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