Artem Lipatov Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 Earlier it was hard to understand: Who was the bigger contributor for 2 decades of dominance of Pats dynasty? Now BB and Brady are divorced - and Brady (42 years old) carries Tampa to 1st divisional title for many years while Pats are 2-4. Also we can remember the season when Brady was injuried and Pats couldn't clinch playooffs although had 10-6 season with Matt Cassel. Can we now say that Tom Brady was the main factor of Pats success not Bellichik? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 Why does one have to be greater than they other? Why can’t they both be two of the best ever who had an amazing run together? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris from Rochester Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 I truly despise both of them, and it makes me sick to defend BB, like really I feel gross typing this, but I have to say we won't know until next year. The Bucs roster top to bottom is leaps and bounds better then NE. Any one of the receivers on the Bucs would be an instant one on the Pats and they had a ton of players opt-out of the season. Now, if they suck next year too and I really hope they do, then we will have the answer, but I give this year as an incomplete for BB. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 They're both terrific, but the difference in effect between an elite QB and a good one is a lot larger than the difference between an elite coach and a good one. Neither one's as good without the other. But Belichick has a bigger handicap this year. The Pats roster is quite a bit worse than the Bucs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 15 minutes ago, Artem Lipatov said: Earlier it was hard to understand: Who was the bigger contributor for 2 decades of dominance of Pats dynasty? Now BB and Brady are divorced - and Brady (42 years old) carries Tampa to 1st divisional title for many years while Pats are 2-4. Also we can remember the season when Brady was injuried and Pats couldn't clinch playooffs although had 10-6 season with Matt Cassel. Can we now say that Tom Brady was the main factor of Pats success not Bellichik? They were 11-5 under Cassel 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 17 minutes ago, Artem Lipatov said: Earlier it was hard to understand: Who was the bigger contributor for 2 decades of dominance of Pats dynasty? Now BB and Brady are divorced - and Brady (42 years old) carries Tampa to 1st divisional title for many years while Pats are 2-4. Also we can remember the season when Brady was injuried and Pats couldn't clinch playooffs although had 10-6 season with Matt Cassel. Can we now say that Tom Brady was the main factor of Pats success not Bellichik? If Brady was still in New England do you think they would have the same record of 2-5 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artem Lipatov Posted October 27, 2020 Author Share Posted October 27, 2020 4 minutes ago, Putin said: If Brady was still in New England do you think they would have the same record of 2-5 ? No way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 (edited) The Patriots aren't in the sh*ttr because of Brady as much as the collapse of their defense. Their defense was ranked #1 last year. They're currently #17. Their offense was #15 last year - pretty mediocre even with Brady under center. This year they're somewhat worse: #24. Their D fell 16 slots while their O fell only 9. The Pats didn't just lose Brady. They lost some FAs and led the league in COVID opt outs. Arguing whether Brady or Belichick is "The Answer" is kind of like arguing which came first, the chicken or the egg. You can make valid arguments for both sides. I personally think it's a little bit of both. Belichick and Brady each contributed to the other's success. Edited October 27, 2020 by hondo in seattle 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 9 minutes ago, Putin said: If Brady was still in New England do you think they would have the same record of 2-5 ? With the roster the Pats have? Maybe one more win. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Bangarang said: Why does one have to be greater than they other? Why can’t they both be two of the best ever who had an amazing run together? This has always been a theme with Brady. I was one who also was firmly in the 'put him on the Lions and see what happens' boat. People claiming he is by far the best ever. I was/am on the side of Payton Manning. Strongly believe that Brady was much more a product of the Belichick/Patriots/Gillette Stadium environment than the other way around. It is an argument thrown about many a barstool for 20 years. This year we are getting some clarity. While the Buccaneers are really loaded (and are still loading) with weapons.... Brady is like 49 and doesnt have unlimited access to the cheating systems. I thought we would see Tampa fizzle, while the Patriots' smoke and mirrors show continues under some clown under C. Covid drop-outs hurt the Patriots a bit... but Belichick's drafting has caught up to them. Edited October 27, 2020 by May Day 10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsatlastin2018 Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 They are the best at what they do, in the game- PERIOD! Cheats that took every advantage and manipulated every rule to their advantage? Sure, but that doesn’t undermine their uber success, leadership, dominance, competencies and abilities! There are numerous NFL films on Bellicheat. However, I would suggest seeing the recent one I saw on the 1995 Cleveland Browns, with numerous examinations of Billy by the management team he led, who later moved far and wide to leadership positions in other NFL orgs- post the hated Modell knife in the back. The great Michael Lombardi along with Ozzie Newsome, etc. have pointed comments and Clowns’ fans and owners, believe- quite rightly, that the Ravens SB was stolen from them! Think about his acolyte Ozzie... puuuulease McBeanie Boy! Ozzie should go to Canton... again... for the management lessons he learned under BB! His FIRST DRAFT for the Ravens included: Ray Lewis (HOF), Jonathan Ogden (HOF), WR Jermaine Lewis (fifth round, 1996): “The best returner in franchise history was selected in the team's remarkable first draft.“ And Brady? NO discussion other than GOAT. Simply, the greatest pair ever, above even Michael & Phil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatdrought Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 25 minutes ago, Chris from Rochester said: I truly despise both of them, and it makes me sick to defend BB, like really I feel gross typing this, but I have to say we won't know until next year. The Bucs roster top to bottom is leaps and bounds better then NE. Any one of the receivers on the Bucs would be an instant one on the Pats and they had a ton of players opt-out of the season. Now, if they suck next year too and I really hope they do, then we will have the answer, but I give this year as an incomplete for BB. Yeah, his GM sucks.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rc2catch Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 I’m not sure the question can be answered at this very moment. Brady has an almost super team in Tampa, but the seasons early still. Even if Brady gets to a super bowl there it’s a little sketchy given the roster. New England has one of the worst rosters in the league right now, and are missing some pretty valuable players on defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 29 minutes ago, klos63 said: They were 11-5 under Cassel With a team that went 16-0 the previous year. Cassel receivers were Randy Moss, Wes Welker and Jabar Gaffney This pats* team is bad. NKeal Harry, Demaire Byrd and Edelman? Edelman is suddenly not a great player with scattershot accuracy throwing to him. Harry is a bust. Byrd has 62 career catches in 5 years Newton looks shot. Belicheck is a great coach, but poor drafting and a bad roster has finally caught up them 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgotBILLStopay Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 Brady & the Bucs are going to have a far better record than the Pats. But I dont think those results mean Brady >> Belichick. Brady selected into a good situation - a decent coach, great receivers, brought in Gronk and is backed by a fantastic defense. Pats had a bunch of opt-outs on defense, acute salary cap issues for this season and didnt get even an average level replacement QB. My Pats friend (yes I have one or two - sorry) prefers they never signed Cam and won no games (instead of their 2 now) - just would have liked em to roll with Stidham and join the Jets in the Lawrence / Fields sweepstakes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 1 minute ago, IgotBILLStopay said: Brady & the Bucs are going to have a far better record than the Pats. But I dont think those results mean Brady >> Belichick. Brady selected into a good situation - a decent coach, great receivers, brought in Gronk and is backed by a fantastic defense. Pats had a bunch of opt-outs on defense, acute salary cap issues for this season and didnt get even an average level replacement QB. My Pats friend (yes I have one or two - sorry) prefers they never signed Cam and won no games (instead of their 2 now) - just would have liked em to roll with Stidham and join the Jets in the Lawrence / Fields sweepstakes. Yeah Brady is easily on one of the top 5 rosters in the NFL. He is set up to succeed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Formation Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 It’s clear at this time that Brady is more than a system QB.. And it’s obvious that Belichick can’t magically turn Newton or Stidham into a good QB.. Think Belichick needs a chance to draft his own replacement QB before we can determine who is responsible for New England’s success.. Did Belichick develop Brady into what he is and he simply needs a more talented QB to groom? I don’t know. Regardless, I highly doubt that their next QB is even remotely as good as Brady was.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 (edited) Both arguably the best at their positions...all time! Edited October 27, 2020 by Back the Blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanNH Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 1 hour ago, Artem Lipatov said: Earlier it was hard to understand: Who was the bigger contributor for 2 decades of dominance of Pats dynasty? Now BB and Brady are divorced - and Brady (42 years old) carries Tampa to 1st divisional title for many years while Pats are 2-4. Also we can remember the season when Brady was injuried and Pats couldn't clinch playooffs although had 10-6 season with Matt Cassel. Can we now say that Tom Brady was the main factor of Pats success not Bellichik? Not really. Brady went to a stacked team with a decent D. The Pats of course would need rebuild after losing the GOAT, then add in like 6 starters opting out for this year (4 starters on D) and we have no idea how good or bad NE would be in a regular year or god knows a consistent QB. jury is out till we have one “normal” year.. I hope Brady wins #7 I have no hard feelings I knew his departure was coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 1 hour ago, Putin said: If Brady was still in New England do you think they would have the same record of 2-5 ? If Belichick has Tampa’s current roster, do you think that he’d be 2-5? 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 (edited) How can anyone compare the two situations? This is a pretty silly comparison and guess people forgot about Matt Cassel too. Patriots roster is not remotely close to the Bucs. Brady has the greatest collection of weapons of his career right now. Patriots offensive weapons is among the worst in the league right now. Patriots had several of their best players opt out on defense too for COVID and lost others as well. Bucs have an excellent run defense and pretty good overall defense. This is like asking why isn’t BB coaching the Jags to the Super Bowl right now because the Pats roster isn’t much better than the Jags. Meanwhile, Brady is the QB of an offensive juggernaught with a pretty good defense too. Same offense Winston threw for over 5000 yards in last year when it had less talent than it does this year. Sorry, but this is a ridiculous comparison and literally means nothing in the story of who was more important. They are both GOATS at what they do. Brady is just on a SB roster where Pats are more of a 5-7 win team roster. Edited October 27, 2020 by Alphadawg7 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 (edited) Brady is the best QB. Belichick is the best coach. Each is the best in their respective roles. You can’t compare the greatness between the two. Apples to oranges. Regarding 2020 Brady picked the best situation with a loaded team. Belichicks team opted out and the talent on the team is currently poor. Look at their front 7 depth chart.....and they’ll still hang with, if not defeat our boys sunday Edited October 27, 2020 by NewEra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timekills17 Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 (edited) My opinion, the worst coaching job that Belichick has performed is this year but he still has time to turn it around. And by worst/turn it around I mean playing competitive but losing football. The best outcome AFC-E teams could ask for would be competent playing by the Pats leading to at least 6 wins. That virtually assures they aren't in the running for getting or trading for a top 2 draft position. I know saying tank is considered heretical in the NFL, and that you'll lose the respect of your players, no real NFL player would not try his hardest to win, etc. etc. That goes out the door with a coach that has Belichick's reputation to say nothing of the decimation of the team due to COVID and a more-than-usual amount of loss in free agency. Imagine a Pats team that only wins one more game and drafting #2 with potential to trade for #1 - or worse, getting a farmload of picks for someone who wants to trade up to #2. They and Miami would each have a bunch of picks, and could theoretically remake their teams in one offseason. Edited October 27, 2020 by timekills17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffAlone Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 This thread again?? I'm not here to heap praise on either of those Pansies. They both suck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Joshin' Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 HOF coaches and QBs often go together. It is the sum of the two that makes them great most often. Does Marv get in without Jim? Does Jim get in with a coach who would not commit to 3 wide, no huddle offense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 Neither. *****in' Cheaters, both of them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 Brady and it was never all that close 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBear Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 They are both great. Belichick's greatness initially provided the system that allowed Brady to grow and become one of the all-time greats. At some point, and aided by the changing rules to protect the QB position, Brady's "greatness" caught up to and surpassed Belichick's "greatness". In today's NFL, great QB play is far more important than great coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalostu2 Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 Giving the Bucs the division before Michael Thomas plays a single healthy game is a huge mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerlyofCtown Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 2 hours ago, Artem Lipatov said: Earlier it was hard to understand: Who was the bigger contributor for 2 decades of dominance of Pats dynasty? Now BB and Brady are divorced - and Brady (42 years old) carries Tampa to 1st divisional title for many years while Pats are 2-4. Also we can remember the season when Brady was injuried and Pats couldn't clinch playooffs although had 10-6 season with Matt Cassel. Can we now say that Tom Brady was the main factor of Pats success not Bellichik? Have you seen Tampa's Roster. You mention Matt Cassel who ironically would be undefeated with that Roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHuddleKelly12 Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 This topic as a Bills fan makes me feel a little like Michael Bolton forced to fess up to the Bobs which song he likes best...(start at 1:15 mark) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 38 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said: This topic as a Bills fan makes me feel a little like Michael Bolton forced to fess up to the Bobs which song he likes best...(start at 1:15 mark) That "no talent a$$hat".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobot Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 Totally.. because the Bucs and Pats have the exact same roster, you can now make a definitive claim... hopefully the OP can now sleep well with this debate settled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat68 Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 Championships 100% equal parties. Tom Brady being the Qb for 20 years is the largest factor for the continual success of the franchise. Good Qbs cover pretty much every flaw a team could have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 3 hours ago, Bangarang said: Why does one have to be greater than they other? Why can’t they both be two of the best ever who had an amazing run together? Because people here love to view things in easy to understand, simple, black-and-white terms. Of course, the real world is filled with shades of gray and varying degrees of complexity, with almost nothing being black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat68 Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 8 minutes ago, Jobot said: Totally.. because the Bucs and Pats have the exact same roster, you can now make a definitive claim... hopefully the OP can now sleep well with this debate settled. Bill didnt have this roster dropped on him. He made it. Drafted it, and traded for it. The Pats having a bad offense and 0 depth on defense is 100% Bill's doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 4 hours ago, Bangarang said: Why does one have to be greater than they other? Why can’t they both be two of the best ever who had an amazing run together? Exactly my thoughts. Brady had been covering up for lack of offensive playmakers for a few years. He got tired of it and wanted out. Bellichick the GM is far worse than Bellichick the coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 well, one thing is pretty certain. one is showing it doesn't need the other. then again, did the other lose more talent while the other gained? either way 5-2 1-1 division 2-4 1-0 division since so many base strength of schedule giants, saints, panthers, rams, chiefs, vikings, falcons, lions, falcons bills, jets, ravens, texans, cardinals, chargers, rams, dolphins, bills, jets does a coach make a team or a QB make a team? or do both together make a team with talent around the QB? so far, things are not looking too good in new england. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 Honestly I didn't need Brady leaving the Patriots to answer this. Brady does so much to get his players into a advantageous position before the snap. His accuracy passing the football is just ridiculous, he has ice water flowing through his veins. All those big time throws to carry the Patriots through the playoffs and into the super bowl and to win the super bowl. Without Brady the Patriots either don't make it to the SB or lose it. Without Belicheat the Patriots are still going to win at least 3 SB's. The Patriots had a legendary O-line coach, very good OC's and a good GM. The Offensive side of the Football would've won the Patriots SB's by itself. I feel like Belicheat is like a reverse Mike Ditka, Ditka had nothing to do with that Bears defense but that is what carried that team and Ditka got all the praise as the HC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simpleman Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 (edited) Brady got to choose what team he went to. He wisely chose a team with a great existing roster. And other good FA players in turn selected to join the team based on that same great roster and the "Brady Mystique", and the rich roster just got even richer. On the other hand Covid Opt-outs, years of poor drafting, and FA loses decimated the 2020 Patriots. And while Belichick may be a great coach, he is not an easy coach to play for. FA players played for the Pats because of the reputation that it was a winning team and the winning "Brady Mystic". They overlooked what a true pain it was to be coached by Belichick because they foremost wanted to be on a " sure winner". Knowing that Belichick has no personal loyalty to individual players, and believes that every player is an expendable tool to be tossed away when they start to decrease in value to the team does not make the Pats a team FAs want to play for without that sure thing winning allure.. Without Brady and all the missing talent, why choose to put up with Belichick as your boss. Edited October 27, 2020 by simpleman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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