What is Wrong With the Defense

[BADOLBILZ]

On 10/21/2020 at 11:36 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Apparently per Frazier presser, one starter (Milano) is injured and out; the other starter (Edmunds) is injured and playing.

 

Matt Fairburn had a take on the DL decisions:

2. The Bills’ defensive line may have had better luck if Harrison Phillips and Trent Murphy had been in the lineup. Sean McDermott said the two handled the situation like pros after being named healthy scratches.(....) McDermott decided Bryan Cox Jr., A.J. Epenesa and Darryl Johnson all gave the Bills a better chance to win than Murphy did. That has to be tough for Murphy to swallow. The Bills could have turned to Murphy and Phillips in this game when the Chiefs decided to go with a run-heavy approach. It felt like McDermott tried to get too clever with that lineup decision, and you wonder what impact it will have in a locker room that looks to Phillips and Murphy as leaders.

 

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall in the room where that decision was made and when the aftermath was discussed.  It seems contra-intuitive to have a game plan where the primary goal is to shut down the pass with the secondary goal to contain the QB limit the run, and healthy-scratch a guy who is one of the best run defenders and another guy who is a very gap-sound run defender, in favor of two practice squad guys who apparently were winning the walk-through or limited practice.

 

 

 

 

 

De-activating them entirely gave Andy Reid hours to build the resolve to fight his nature and be patient with the run.

 

Phillips has received mixed reviews this year but he has been their only hope at 1T as far as defending the run.

 

 

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...not sure if it's ironic or hypocritical to read the purported "Star Luv" now that he's NOT here......he's been the "favorite punching bag" of the "TBD expert pundits"....guess "absence makes the heart grow fonder"......

[Don Otreply]

We let two evidently important players walk, and their replacements aren’t as good, and we are paying the price.

 

It hurts to say that, but it appears to be the case. 
 

Go Bills!!!

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

We let two evidently important players walk, and their replacements aren’t as good, and we are paying the price.

 

It hurts to say that, but it appears to be the case. 
 

Go Bills!!!

 

...is there anything exorbitant in the Jordan Phillips deal that you see?...

 

Jordan Phillips signed a 3 year, $30,000,000 contract with the Arizona Cardinals, including a $8,000,000 signing bonus, $18,500,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $10,000,000. In 2020, Phillips will earn a base salary of $2,000,000 and a signing bonus of $8,000,000, while carrying a cap hit of $4,000,000 and a dead cap value of $14,500,000.

Contract Terms: 3 yr(s) / $30,000,000

Signing Bonus $8,000,000

Average Salary$10,000,000

GTD at Sign:$14,500,000

Total GTD:$18,500,000

Free Agent:

[Don Otreply]

Just now, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...is there anything exorbitant in the Jordan Phillips deal that you see?...

 

Jordan Phillips signed a 3 year, $30,000,000 contract with the Arizona Cardinals, including a $8,000,000 signing bonus, $18,500,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $10,000,000. In 2020, Phillips will earn a base salary of $2,000,000 and a signing bonus of $8,000,000, while carrying a cap hit of $4,000,000 and a dead cap value of $14,500,000.

Contract Terms: 3 yr(s) / $30,000,000

Signing Bonus $8,000,000

Average Salary$10,000,000

GTD at Sign:$14,500,000

Total GTD:$18,500,000

Free Agent:

And? 😁

[ndirish1978]

It begins and ends with the Dline. A successful Dline helps all levels of the defense, much like a rising tide raising all ships. We cannot get pressure on the QB, they have time to wait for receivers to get in better positions, the LBers are simply not great and injured and we don't actually have a nickel or CB2. This defense is painful to watch.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Rams — talented team  W

Titans — talented team  L

Chiefs — talented team  L

Raiders — kind of a talented team W
Fish — had Fitzmagic not Fitztragic W

 

JETS — dumpster fire. W

 

 

 

[Rocbillsfan1]

This years dl reminds me of when wood and incognito left and we just decided not to replace either. Dl is a mess right now. We lost 3 out of our 4 best dl and the others just aren’t stepping up. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Not enough fibre in their diet?

*
Feng shui at the field house out of whack? 
*
🤔

Edited October 23, 2020 by Ridgewaycynic2013

[DuckyBoys]

3 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...not sure if it's ironic or hypocritical to read the purported "Star Luv" now that he's NOT here......he's been the "favorite punching bag" of the "TBD expert pundits"....guess "absence makes the heart grow fonder"......

we might be better w Star but the Bills struggled just as bad against the browns and Eagles and he was in there  We just diidnt seee enough teams willing to power run us to death last year  Its more than just Star's absence 

[newcam2012]

14 hours ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Why are Frazier and McDermott playing Josh Norman in man if they know how to use the strengths of their players? Why are the blitzing players that suck at blitzing?

 

If you just started watching oliver in the last few games I could see saying that he hasn’t been good but saying he’s had no impact since being drafted is flat out wrong. He was progressing towards the end of the year and had a huge impact in the Dallas game.

You are grasping at straws. Oliver has basically sucked since he's taken the field as a Bill. You need to get way more production out of a top ten pick. Norman was playing due to injuries and lack of depth. Maybe they are assessing what he has in the tank. Frankly, I'll trust Fraizer and McDermott's judgement over yours. The proof is in the success that they have had with our defense. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

6 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

You are grasping at straws. Oliver has basically sucked since he's taken the field as a Bill. You need to get way more production out of a top ten pick. Norman was playing due to injuries and lack of depth. Maybe they are assessing what he has in the tank. Frankly, I'll trust Fraizer and McDermott's judgement over yours. The proof is in the success that they have had with our defense. 

Well Frazier and McDermott are starting the guy that you claim has “sucked since he’s taken the field as a Bill.” So they think he’s playing good enough to be there so you must not trust their judgement either. Smh

 

Seeing what Norman has left? Did they ignore his time in Washington where everyone and their mom saw him struggle in man for years? Did they forget his strengths and weaknesses from when they had him in Carolina? 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Not at the table Karlos

[Frez]

Not enough  beef up front. 
 

 

[newcam2012]

9 hours ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Well Frazier and McDermott are starting the guy that you claim has “sucked since he’s taken the field as a Bill.” So they think he’s playing good enough to be there so you must not trust their judgement either. Smh

 

Seeing what Norman has left? Did they ignore his time in Washington where everyone and their mom saw him struggle in man for years? Did they forget his strengths and weaknesses from when they had him in Carolina? 

Oliver is still young. It's too early to give up on him. Doesn't mean he hasn't sucked!  He has been a great disappearing act thus far.. Maybe ***** Norman is the best we have under the circumstances? What do you suggest coach Karlos? 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 hours ago, Rocbillsfan1 said:

This years dl reminds me of when wood and incognito left and we just decided not to replace either. Dl is a mess right now. We lost 3 out of our 4 best dl and the others just aren’t stepping up. 

 

We didn't "not replace them", we replaced them with kind of cut out bin guys.

 

This year, we spent some real money on guys who had a track record and they thought would be as good.

Problems include Star opting out, Oliver injuring himself vs . Mia and not playing up to his last years form, Harrison Phillips not playing up to his last year's form, Edmunds playing injured and not playing up to his last year's form, and Milano being out

 

So the impact may be similar but I would say the root cause (not adequate talent) differs a bit in that we have guys who have talent, they're either injured, recovering from injury, or out while the guys we brought in are not playing up to expectation.

[Pirate Angel]

23 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...is there anything exorbitant in the Jordan Phillips deal that you see?...

 

Jordan Phillips signed a 3 year, $30,000,000 contract with the Arizona Cardinals, including a $8,000,000 signing bonus, $18,500,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $10,000,000. In 2020, Phillips will earn a base salary of $2,000,000 and a signing bonus of $8,000,000, while carrying a cap hit of $4,000,000 and a dead cap value of $14,500,000.

Contract Terms: 3 yr(s) / $30,000,000

Signing Bonus $8,000,000

Average Salary$10,000,000

GTD at Sign:$14,500,000

Total GTD:$18,500,000

Free Agent:

They invested a high first round pick on Oliver, had they'd known Phillip's was going to burst on the scene they may have chose differently. Oliver did show flashes his rookie year. Not sure many teams are going to hand out a bigger contract when you Spent a top 10 pick on the same position 

[Not at the table Karlos]

1 hour ago, newcam2012 said:

Oliver is still young. It's too early to give up on him. Doesn't mean he hasn't sucked!  He has been a great disappearing act thus far.. Maybe ***** Norman is the best we have under the circumstances? What do you suggest coach Karlos? 

Just go read the all 22 review. 

[Bob in STL]

I think the problems start up front with the DL and then permeates through the layers. 
 

1. They have no DT like Star to eat up blockers and space, making the LBs job harder.  Oliver is playing below Jordan’s Phillips level last year.  
2.  The edge rush is not good enough.  Hughes got old.  Addison‘s sack production would be ok for the #3 guy, not the 1.  Murphy disappeared and Epenesa had no camp, no preseason, and is not ready.  
3. Milano is always hurt.  Edmunds misses Star and he too is hurt.  They never replaced Lorenzo’s leadership, coverage, and pass rush skills.   
4. They need help at #2CB and at Nickel. 
 

Star, Phillips, and Alexander were not adequately replaced. Depth has not improved, it appears to be worse.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

58 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

I think the problems start up front with the DL and then permeates through the layers. 
 

1. They have no DT like Star to eat up blockers and space, making the LBs job harder.  Oliver is playing below Jordan’s Phillips level last year.  
2.  The edge rush is not good enough.  Hughes got old.  Addison‘s sack production would be ok for the #3 guy, not the 1.  Murphy disappeared and Epenesa had no camp, no preseason, and is not ready.  
3. Milano is always hurt.  Edmunds misses Star and he too is hurt.  They never replaced Lorenzo’s leadership, coverage, and pass rush skills.   
4. They need help at #2CB and at Nickel. 
 

Star, Phillips, and Alexander were not adequately replaced. Depth has not improved, it appears to be worse.  

 

Pretty much fair analysis.  Add in that Harrison Phillips is not playing at the level he was at before injury and that Oliver is working his way back from hurt.

[Nitro]

1 hour ago, Bob in STL said:

I think the problems start up front with the DL and then permeates through the layers. 
 

1. They have no DT like Star to eat up blockers and space, making the LBs job harder.  Oliver is playing below Jordan’s Phillips level last year.  
2.  The edge rush is not good enough.  Hughes got old.  Addison‘s sack production would be ok for the #3 guy, not the 1.  Murphy disappeared and Epenesa had no camp, no preseason, and is not ready.  
3. Milano is always hurt.  Edmunds misses Star and he too is hurt.  They never replaced Lorenzo’s leadership, coverage, and pass rush skills.   
4. They need help at #2CB and at Nickel. 
 

Star, Phillips, and Alexander were not adequately replaced. Depth has not improved, it appears to be worse.  

Shaq Lawson was a good run defender.  They are all missed. 

[stuvian]

maybe we got too cute trading away vets for picks

[frostbitmic]

The DL has been bad. The players that returned from last year, Hughes, Oliver, Murphy, Phillips have all regressed and Star opted out. Picking up players from the used Panthers pile haven't matched J.Phillips or Lawson.

 

LB - Edmunds has regressed, Milano has been either hurt and out or hurt and playing anyway. Klein has not replaced Lorax.

 

CB - White isn't playing like he is capable of, Taron Johnson has regressed, Norman is sometimes good but often not so much.

 

S - Neither Poyer or Hyde are playing as well as they have in the past.

 

This defense has a lot of talent, why are so many of these talented players regressing this year. Something changed and it needs to go back to what it was.

 

 

[97bills]

On 10/20/2020 at 10:10 AM, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I think they're light in the pants. 

 

Oliver is not a poor-man's Aaron Donald, he is just a 280 pound DT that gets shoved around and is able to get a mop-up chase down sack once in awhile. 

 

Hughes is 30+ years old, Murphy is 30+ years old, Addison is 30+ years old. 

 

Jefferson and Phillips are just guys. 

 

 

At linebacker and corner the Bills lack of depth has been exposed. We keep waiting for Edmunds to make an impact, but he looks like a good athlete with no instincts. Tre White is not as dominant this season, Josh Norman shouldn't be on an NFL field. 

That about wraps it up I’ve been saying this and I will add Hughes had two good years in buffalo his been fell off I don’t think I’ve ever seen one player get by this long because he had two good years in 13/14.  P.s we’re in for a long year on Defense and hope we can get some guys next year 

[97bills]

16 hours ago, Frez said:

Not enough  beef up front. 
 

 

Bingo 

[Thurman#1]

Same things that were wrong with them that we've discussed in all the other threads.

 

Star was way more important than many thought and he opted out too late to replace him in free agency.

 

Matt Milano is also way way more important to this defense than many thought and he's out.

 

Injuries have reduced the effectiveness of two other key guys, Edmunds and Oliver significantly. And playing Oliver at 1-tech, as they did for much of the KC game is a sure way to make him much less productive as well. Playing him at 1-tech shows they're having real trouble finding a 1-tech. It's these kind of knock-on effects of the problems above that have consequences elsewhere.

 

Injuries at CB have hurt, and people are ignoring it. Losing Levi Wallace hurts an awful lot. Now Norman has a hamstring. Tre has been in and out and hasn't been quite as effective even when he's in.

 

That's a lot of injuries and at key positions.

 

Pass rush blues as well. It appears that Hughes may be getting older, finally. And some of the new guys are not quite fitting in or doing their job as well as they'd hoped and also to the new holding penalty moratorium which values a certain type of rusher over others. The holding thing looks to me to be a huge part of this.

 

Taron Johnson wasn't great last year but he seems to have regressed a bit and the Pats moved fast on Dugger, and Delpit was gone too. They may regret not taking Chinn in the 2nd round. He's playing pretty well in Carolina.

 

The system is complex but the injury problems, the no Lotulelei problem, the CB problems especially seem to be causing problems that make players try to do too much. Ripple effect starts affecting everyone else.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Thurman#1

[bmur66]

Offseason miscalculations 

[finn]

McDermott benching Murphy and Harrison reminded me of Levy  refusing to play rookie Henry Jones against Washington in the second Super Bowl even though our safeties sucked, and later benching run stuffers John Parrella and James Patton in the last Super Bowl when Dallas ran the ball down our throats. Murphy and Harrison might not have been playing well, but they're probably our best linemen against the run. Fine not to start them--send a message--but to inactivate them? No hindsight is needed to see this as just bad coaching, especially on a rainy day when it was pretty likely the Chiefs would try to run the ball.