Goodell Admits NFL Was Wrong Not to Listen

[SDS]

4 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said:

As I’ve set them up? They are objective statistics. I just said them. They are in black and white. 
 

Not surprised you aren’t willing to discuss them. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, Sig1Hunter said:

As I’ve set them up? They are objective statistics. I just said them. They are in black and white. 
 

Not surprised you aren’t willing to discuss them. 

Look- imagine for a second there's no political bone to pick. Just for a second.

 

Rate refers to the ratio between two related quantities in different units. Like the rate of velocity is measured in terms of meters per second. You're trying to measure the rate of cops killed to the rate of unarmed black people killed by cops without defining a comparable denominator: you don't have compatible rates. What you are operating under is (police)+(unarmed black people killed by police)/...what? 

[Cripple Creek]

28 minutes ago, Margarita said:

cool thanks man I knew there would be a good reason. Peace.

✌️

24 minutes ago, HamSandwhich said:

. 

Thanks, read my other posts. 

You're hiding, that's your choice.  Leave us to discuss the most important matter in my lifetime.

[ColoradoBills]

Maybe it's coincidence or maybe it's the way of the universe but today is the anniversary of D-Day but it's also

the anniversary of an assassination and it's also the anniversary of a famous speech given by the assassinated man.

 

Lot's has changed in 54 years but also a lot still needs to be done.

I personally choose to be a "ripple of hope".  Here is a 4 minute clip for anyone who wants to watch.

 

 

[K-9]

36 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said:

Yes, George Floyd was a horrible situation. 
 

Where is the evidence that it was racially based? Got any?
 

Maybe it was an example of a criminal cop? You know what? They exist! They aren’t the boogeyman. The boogeyman is the BS narrative that there is systematic racism in police. That’s what you lemmings are marching on. Weird that cops are killed at a MUCH higher rate than unarmed blacks are killed by police. Weird that black men comprise 6% of the population but comprise over 40% of the perpetrators of violent crime. Where was the marching when a friend of mine was murdered by a black suspect? He stopped out to check on a disabled motorist, and was shot and killed as he got out of his car. Cops are systematically hunting and killing black people? Garbage. It just isn’t true. 

 

Again, if you want to have a discussion about those things that have contributed to the environment where black suspects are committing violent crimes at exponentially higher rates than all other races, let’s do it. Let’s talk about the legislators and leaders in those black communities that have allowed that to happen under their watch for DECADES. I doubt you will want to have that discussion, though. It’s so much easier to scapegoat the police. That’s what the political leaders are doing, too. Keep following. It’s a great strategy... until you reach the precipice of that cliff.

Whether Floyd’s murder was a racist act or not is for those that need to argue minutiae. He was BLACK. I’m willing to entertain he just may have been a psychotic F who was having a really bad day, but his victim was BLACK. That is the optic reality. Racist or not is a secondary concern, but it’s a fair question. 
 

Let’s talk about those leaders who have failed those communities indeed. That’s a huge part of the problem. And the current movement acknowledges that reality, including black leaders you seem to think are asleep at the wheel. 
 

Cops aren’t being scapegoated.  BAD cops, ROGUE cops, UNFIT cops are being called out and all those good cops and their unions who have looked the other way in order to keep that thin blue line intact are being asked to stop doing that. Chauvin was cited 19 times for various actions unbecoming a LEO. Why was he even allowed to be where he was on that fateful day? I submit his union representation was a huge advocate for allowing him to remain an officer just as they have been for decades. “I was in fear for my life”, is a mantra and is cited in EVERY case I’ve researched. 
 

Can you honestly say that the police have done an exemplary job of policing themselves in the history of our country? Can you honestly say black people don’t have a historical reason to be mistrustful? 
 

Believe what you need to. Suffice to say you’re wasting your time trying to convince me these protests have it all wrong, though. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by K-9

[HamSandwhich]

1 hour ago, SDS said:

Thank you for your parting ignorant thought. It was the cherry on top of a scrumptious dessert. 

So says one person. I am not your caricature of a slacked jawed yokel who dropped out of high school. I’m very well versed in this and have higher education much higher (and in subjects) than you might think. You would think it would make me more amiable to the mainstream view. Instead I see right through the BS people spew. This is precisely because I studied my way through liberal professor after liberal professor holding my own against their naïveté. Continue to drone on with a lemming fervor my friend. My view point is not ignorant rather well learned (pronounced learn-Ed). Good day to you sir. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by HamSandwhich

[FireChans]

27 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

I don’t, I also know as a former Marine that taking a knee during the National anthem is a constitutional right that I served to protect. Why is it that some Americans so viscerally dislike it when other Americans exercise their constitutional rights?  Doing so by using a straw man argument about our military service members to feebly attempt to make a mistaken point, and then repeatedly doubling down on that very mistaken point?  Again why would an American citizen want to prevent another American citizen from exercising their constitutional rights?  Such action is totally UN-AMERICAN. 
 

 

The poster I was responding to asked me if NFL games should stop honoring the US military. I asked him if he found honoring the military disrespectful.

 

I'm telling you this because what you typed doesn't seem to apply to the post you quoted.

[Sig1Hunter]

5 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Whether Floyd’s murder was a racist act or not is for those that need to argue minutiae. He was BLACK. I’m willing to entertain he just may have been a psychotic F who was having a really bad day, but his victim was BLACK. That is the optic reality. Racist or not is a secondary concern, but it’s a fair question. 
 

Let’s talk about those leaders who have failed those communities indeed. That’s a huge part of the problem. And the current movement acknowledges that reality, including black leaders you seem to think are asleep at the wheel. 
 

Cops aren’t being scapegoated.  BAD cops, ROGUE cops, UNFIT cops are being called out and all those good cops and their unions who have looked the other way in order to keep that thin blue line intact are being asked to stop doing that. Chauvin was cited 19 times for various actions unbecoming a LEO. Why was he even allowed to be where he was on that fateful day? I submit his union representation was a huge advocate for allowing him to remain an officer just as they have been for decades. “I was in fear for my life”, is a mantra and is cited in EVERY case I’ve researched. 
 

Can you honestly say that the police have done an exemplary job of policing themselves in the history of our country? Can you honestly say black people don’t have a historical reason to be mistrustful? 
 

Believe what you need to. Suffice to say you’re wasting your time trying to convince me these protests have it all wrong, though. 

You were the one that used the Floyd case as evidence of systematic racism is law enforcement. I was asking what evidence you have of that. 

Cops aren’t being scapegoated? Bricks are being targeted at rogue cops only? Molotov cocktails are launched only at unfit cops? The cops being spit on and cursed at, those are the rogue cops? The politicians, athletes, Hollywood elite are all referencing “systemic racism” in law enforcement. But you are saying it’s only about rogue cops? I’ll get on board with you, but all this mess over a very small percentage of rogue cops?
 

We can agree that there are bad cops. I’ve worked with them. I’ve arrested them. The vast, vast majority of cops are good, selfless, and often heroic people. They are not systematically racist. And evidence from history that shows they used to be is totally irrelevant to today. The killing of unarmed suspects has dropped year after year. Use of control is down. Law enforcement has never been better than they are today... yet, there are cries of “burn it down” and “ defund the police”. And mayors are actually doing it! How are cops going to have better training, hire better candidates, get better access to less lethal tools when cities are cutting hundreds of millions of dollars from the budget? How on Earth does that make sense? If city leaders truly believe the problem lies with the police, and their response is to make drastic cuts to their budgets? You aren’t punishing the cops. You are punishing those that are going to get 250 million less of service. 
 

BTW- the thin blue line isn’t a metaphor for cops protecting bad cops. The thin blue line is the line of cops protecting you and I from the darkness and anarchy that would exist without them. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

By bending the knee he’s not bending the knee.  
 

Bravo Rodger 

[Sig1Hunter]

45 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Look- imagine for a second there's no political bone to pick. Just for a second.

 

Rate refers to the ratio between two related quantities in different units. Like the rate of velocity is measured in terms of meters per second. You're trying to measure the rate of cops killed to the rate of unarmed black people killed by cops without defining a comparable denominator: you don't have compatible rates. What you are operating under is (police)+(unarmed black people killed by police)/...

 

45 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Look- imagine for a second there's no political bone to pick. Just for a second.

 

Rate refers to the ratio between two related quantities in different units. Like the rate of velocity is measured in terms of meters per second. You're trying to measure the rate of cops killed to the rate of unarmed black people killed by cops without defining a comparable denominator: you don't have compatible rates. What you are operating under is (police)+(unarmed black people killed by police)/...what? 

No political bone.

 

From 2004 to 2013, 511 cops were killed in felonious incidents. There were 540 total offenders, 232 of which were black. Er go, 43% of the offenders were black. During the same time period, the black population is approximately 13%.  13% of the population committing 43% of the crimes. That means nothing to you? 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Sig1Hunter

[LB3]

21 hours ago, Mango said:

The COO of my company handed out MAGA hats at our sales meeting to the entire company. I threw it in the garbage. I was very open with my company, boss, and COO that I wouldn’t wear that hat and if they wanted me to, I would just quit. And I was absolutely not joking. I would have walked. 
 

I got my 2nd promotion in the last year about 60 days after that. And received 2 awards at that same sales meeting. Our COO does all of the hirings and promotions himself. So it’s not like things just happen beneath him. 

I'm glad your boss values work ethic and effort. It clearly sounds like you worked for everthing you got.

Edited June 6, 2020 by LB3

[K-9]

26 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said:

You were the one that used the Floyd case as evidence of systematic racism is law enforcement. I was asking what evidence you have of that. 

Cops aren’t being scapegoated? Bricks are being targeted at rogue cops only? Molotov cocktails are launched only at unfit cops? The cops being spit on and cursed at, those are the rogue cops? The politicians, athletes, Hollywood elite are all referencing “systemic racism” in law enforcement. But you are saying it’s only about rogue cops? I’ll get on board with you, but all this mess over a very small percentage of rogue cops?
 

We can agree that there are bad cops. I’ve worked with them. I’ve arrested them. The vast, vast majority of cops are good, selfless, and often heroic people. They are not systematically racist. And evidence from history that shows they used to be is totally irrelevant to today. The killing of unarmed suspects has dropped year after year. Use of control is down. Law enforcement has never been better than they are today... yet, there are cries of “burn it down” and “ defund the police”. And mayors are actually doing it! How are cops going to have better training, hire better candidates, get better access to less lethal tools when cities are cutting hundreds of millions of dollars from the budget? How on Earth does that make sense? If city leaders truly believe the problem lies with the police, and their response is to make drastic cuts to their budgets? You aren’t punishing the cops. You are punishing those that are going to get 250 million less of service. 
 

BTW- the thin blue line isn’t a metaphor for cops protecting bad cops. The thin blue line is the line of cops protecting you and I from the darkness and anarchy that would exist without them. 

You should re-read the post you initially engaged me about because I clearly stated the NFL now agrees with the players and protesters that there is systematic oppression (racism) against blacks. Read the article and you’ll see that. If it makes you feel any better, I suspect Chauvin is a racist, but I don’t have tangible proof at this point. When his record is made public (against the protestations of his union I suspect) I won’t be surprised to see it. But I get it, unless a cop is actually recorded saying racist things, then he’s not racist. How convenient. 

As I said, I don’t believe whether Chauvin or cops like him being racist is important as the optic the murder of Floyd suggests. 
 

I think there’s a difference between scapegoating cops as the epitome of all evil vs. some #######s throwing things at them while they are on riot duty. Again, the movement is about having bad cops expunged and the coverups for their actions stopped. There needs to be full transparency at all times in these matters. I can’t blame people for being skeptical when there is enough video proof to suggest a cop was never in danger for his life while he emptied a clip into an unarmed black man. Sorry. 
 

You don’t have to tell me the vast, vast majority of cops are good. I’ve known that all my life. I’m also on record, I believe in the Brees thread, that defunding police would actually work against the interests of the BLM movement. Lots of things get said when tensions are high and I doubt much, if any defunding will occur. 
 

My apologies for mis-characterizing that thin blue line in that manner. I’ve known it’s true meaning my entire life as well. It was a snarky remark and has no place in the discourse. Again, my apologies. 

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by K-9

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said:

 

No political bone.

 

From 2004 to 2013, 511 cops were killed in felonious incidents. There were 540 total offenders, 232 of which were black. Er go, 43% of the offenders were black. During the same time period, the black population is approximately 13%.  13% of the population committing 43% of the crimes. That means nothing to you? 

Appreciate the response. The above is a different statistic than the one we were talking about earlier which I hope you understand is about as meaningless as comparing the velocity of a car to the interest on a savings account. 

 

What you have here is the ratio of police killed by black people to the amount of black people per capita. That's a much different formula than originally proposed, and if you really want I guess we could get into the socioeconomic reasons behind the disparity.

[krf139]

4 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

Is it pandering to simply say “what is it that you want me to know? I’m listening”? Because that’s something that I’ve struggled with quite a bit (not just on this subject but in general). You might find that what you believe isn’t far off from the people that you feel you’d be pandering to...

The pandering is that no opinions are allowed. Any opinion expressed is attacked. Thus, people are silenced and there’s no “conversation.”  Conversation would have entailed folks listening to Brees and having dialogue. Not shaming him into apology. This is why we have a “silent majority” in our society 

[Sig1Hunter]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

You should re-read the post you initially engaged me about because I clearly stated the NFL now agrees with the players and protesters that there is systematic oppression (racism) against blacks. Read the article and you’ll see that. If it makes you feel any better, I suspect Chauvin is a racist, but I don’t have tangible proof at this point. When his record is made public (against the protestations of his union I suspect) I won’t be surprised to see it. But I get it, unless a cop is actually recorded saying racist things, then he’s not racist. How convenient. 

You don’t have to tell me the vast, vast majority of cops are good. I’ve known that all my life. I’m also on record, I believe in the Brees thread, that defunding police would actually work against the interests of the BLM movement. Lots of things get said when tensions are high and I doubt much, if any defunding will occur. 
 

My apologies for mis-characterizing that thin blue line in that manner. I’ve known it’s true meaning my entire life as well. It was a snarky remark and has no place in the discourse. Again, my apologies. 

 

 

 

Yeah. I responded with “hurt feelings and anecdotes” as evidence of systematic racism in law enforcement.  To which you responded that the visual of Chauvin kneeling on Floyd’s neck is not anecdotal.. therefore you were saying it is actual evidence of racism. There isn’t any evidence of racism, yet, but it is OK that the masses use it as evidence to point to systematic racism in law enforcement? Do you see where you’ve been hoodwinked yet? 

[Putin]

4 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I appreciate that. It was a couple years of the worst situation that you could imagine. It’s a brutal, brutal disease.

 

In terms of the “when” I guess that the anthem is better than 2nd and 6. I’m only kind of kidding here. That’s an opportunity for them when they have their most eyes without having any impact on the actual game. I suppose the 2 minute warning of the 1st half could work? You could do it similar to the 7th inning stretch. It’s a moment that pauses the game to bring eyes on it. Just thinking out loud here...

I think during the 2 minutes before the half ( IMO ) is a GREAT idea !!!! 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Putin

[Sig1Hunter]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Appreciate the response. The above is a different statistic than the one we were talking about earlier which I hope you understand is about as meaningless as comparing the velocity of a car to the interest on a savings account. 

 

What you have here is the ratio of police killed by black people to the amount of black people per capita. That's a much different formula than originally proposed, and if you really want I guess we could get into the socioeconomic reasons behind the disparity.

I believe that is the real discussion that needs to be held, or at least the main one. Law enforcement can be better, and it will continue to get better. But, it needs support. From the leaders of cities and states... but mostly from regular people. I could get cussed at all day long, called every name in the book... but having a random person come up and say “thank you” makes it all worth it, and washes all of the previous frustrations away. 

[FireChans]

11 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Appreciate the response. The above is a different statistic than the one we were talking about earlier which I hope you understand is about as meaningless as comparing the velocity of a car to the interest on a savings account. 

 

What you have here is the ratio of police killed by black people to the amount of black people per capita. That's a much different formula than originally proposed, and if you really want I guess we could get into the socioeconomic reasons behind the disparity.

Do you believe that criminal violence rates play any kind of role in the difference in statistics?

[K-9]

11 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said:

Yeah. I responded with “hurt feelings and anecdotes” as evidence of systematic racism in law enforcement.  To which you responded that the visual of Chauvin kneeling on Floyd’s neck is not anecdotal.. therefore you were saying it is actual evidence of racism. There isn’t any evidence of racism, yet, but it is OK that the masses use it as evidence to point to systematic racism in law enforcement? Do you see where you’ve been hoodwinked yet? 

Hoodwinked? Not even close. And did you not read the part where I said I have no tangible evidence that Chauvin is a racist? I don’t claim Chauvin is a racist. Indeed, I claim it’s immaterial to the cause. The optic is enough. That’s obvious. 
 

In the absence of someone witnessed actually saying racist things, what proof would suffice for you?  Ok, so unarmed black men seen on video getting killed by cops wasn’t racist. Why then? Why the ultimate use of excessive force? 
 

And please don’t hand me the company line about them being in fear for their lives. 
 

Regarding our exchange around the use of the word “anecdotal”, I was disagreeing with the idea that the Floyd murder in itself wasn’t “anecdotal.” You were completely centered around the idea of racism and I was approaching it in a much larger sense. 

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by K-9

[FireChans]

Just now, K-9 said:

Hoodwinked? Not even close. And did you not read the part where I said I have no tangible evidence that Chauvin is a racist? I don’t claim Chauvin is a racist. Indeed, I claim it’s immaterial to the cause. The optic is enough. That’s obvious. 
 

In the absence of someone witnessed actually saying racist things, what proof would suffice for you?  Ok, so unarmed black men seen on video getting killed by cops wasn’t racist. Why then? Why the ultimate use of excessive force? 
 

And please don’t hand me the company line about them being in fear for their lives. 
 

 

Did you know that an analysis of Philly police shootings found that black officers actually had more frequent shootings than white officers in unarmed black suspects?

 

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

The poster I was responding to asked me if NFL games should stop honoring the US military. I asked him if he found honoring the military disrespectful.

 

I'm telling you this because what you typed doesn't seem to apply to the post you quoted.

Gotcha

[K-9]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Did you know that an analysis of Philly police shootings found that black officers actually had more frequent shootings than white officers in unarmed black suspects?

 

Is your point then that these protestors have nothing to complain about? Is racism REALLY the key issue here or is it unfit cops? 
 

 

 

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Is your point then that these protestors have nothing to complain about? Is racism REALLY the key issue here or is it unfit cops? 
 

 

 

Oh god no. 

 

I contend that the reason that we will see real change in police brutality is that the George Floyd video was basically impossible to turn away from. It wasn’t someone resisting, making a sudden move, etc. It was clear as day and everybody with eyeballs knows it. 

 

I have just recently done a deep dive into some of the statistics and run into some very interesting pieces of information. And an issue that initially seemed to predominantly affect black folks disproportionately, appears less so. But white, black or purple, police brutality is something that we must strive to erase as much as possible.

 

Most importantly, I misread your post and do so apologize. Lol.

Edited June 7, 2020 by FireChans

[K-9]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Oh god no. 

 

I contend that the reason that we will see real change in police brutality is that the George Floyd video was basically impossible to turn away from. It wasn’t someone resisting, making a sudden move, etc. It was clear as day and everybody with eyeballs knows it. 

 

I have just recently done a deep dive into some of the statistics and run into some very interesting pieces of information. And an issue that initially seemed to predominantly affect black folks disproportionately, appears less so. But white, black or purple, police brutality is something that we must strive to erase as much as possible.

I’d be interested in a link to that philly study

[Sig1Hunter]

40 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Hoodwinked? Not even close. And did you not read the part where I said I have no tangible evidence that Chauvin is a racist? I don’t claim Chauvin is a racist. Indeed, I claim it’s immaterial to the cause. The optic is enough. That’s obvious. 
 

In the absence of someone witnessed actually saying racist things, what proof would suffice for you?  Ok, so unarmed black men seen on video getting killed by cops wasn’t racist. Why then? Why the ultimate use of excessive force? 
 

And please don’t hand me the company line about them being in fear for their lives. 
 

 

Hell, I’ll take almost any evidence. Just so long as it isnt based solely on the color of ones skin. Do you have any evidence? You are making the claim that it exists. In 2015, there were 53,469,300 law enforcement - civilian contacts which is 21.1% of the total population. Whites were contacted 37,334,200 times, which is 22.7% of the white population. Blacks were contacted 6,146,600 times, which is 19.8% of the black population.  So, white people are more likely to be contacted by police. I’ve already quoted the statistics for unarmed law enforcement deaths. Nine unarmed black people were killed last year. 7 were actually attacking the officer, grabbing for the officers  gun, or trying to run the officer over with a vehicle. 2 officers were criminally charged. 
 

For kicks and giggles, let’s say that the number of law enforcement citizen contacts was approximately the same in 2019 as it was in 2015. Out of 6,146,600 contacts,  9 unarmed black people were killed. That equates to .00014642% of the time that a law enforcement officer contacts a black man, he will die as an unarmed (as defined by WaPo) suspect. Systematic racism? Show me. 

 

Again, it’s anecdotal and hurt feelings aka mostly “I’m black and I think the cops pulled me over just cuz I’m black and I don’t appreciate that”.

 

As far as Chauvin goes specifically, I have no idea. Maybe he’s a racist. Maybe he’s just a piece of *****? Either way, there’s no evidence of systemic racism in LE. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Sig1Hunter

[FireChans]

Just now, K-9 said:

I’d be interested in a link to that philly study

https://www.phillypolice.com/assets/directives/cops-w0753-pub.pdf

 

Its a biggy. The stat I referred was on table 8. Unfortunately, (or rather probably fortunately) the sample size is not super impressive.

[Shamrock]

On 6/6/2020 at 9:55 AM, JR in Pittsburgh said:

there are some interesting articles out there re why the NFL and NBA have been so different on social justice. While I think Silver has been a more outspoken advocate of social justice issues than Goodell, one of the key differences that people point to is the leadership of the players. The superstars in the NBA all hold high-level positions in the union executive power structure. In the NFL, the back-up scrub olinemen seem to hold those positions.  

The NFLPA boss is a long time multiple re-elected Lawyer- though, don’t think he was a player? But he’s done it for a long time- players voting obviously feel he’s doing good. Is Lorax on some NFLPA as well? From memory wasn’t Trace Armstrong, Troy Vincent and then Kevin Maewae all player heads of the NFLPA. Not sure current or recent though, those guys were around when I was younger... pre kids... If guys keep getting re-elected year after year is that an indication that the players feel they’re doing a good job? I definitely remember when Troy Vincent was a President, that part hasn’t been lost to Minecraft and Paw Patrol!

Is there a big difference in the basketball at that union level. Maewae was a superstar. Or is there more, volume in the basketball. Maybe it’s a team list size thing? I don’t follow basketball.

 

[Billl]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

I don’t. Those folks aren’t really there when the anthem is played, like talking at concessions during a play vs talking in the auditorium. 

 

I’m sure some do. Some folks think it’s disrespectful to sit during the anthem, or to wear a hat. A lot of those folks think kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful. They don’t think that a beer ad at halftime is comparable for obvious reasons.

Just because snowflakes exist doesn’t mean they are entitled to a 70,000 person safe space.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

Just because snowflakes exist doesn’t mean they are entitled to a 70,000 person safe space.

I don't think folks are entitled to much of anything.

[vincec]

23 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Is your point then that these protestors have nothing to complain about? Is racism REALLY the key issue here or is it unfit cops? 
 

 

 

It’s the culture of unaccountability that’s surrounds the police. If there were no videos there would be no charges. The police never commit any crimes according to them and their unions.

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said:

Hell, I’ll take almost any evidence. Just so long as it isnt based solely on the color of ones skin. Do you have any evidence? You are making the claim that it exists. In 2015, there were 53,469,300 law enforcement - civilian contacts which is 21.1% of the total population. Whites were contacted 37,334,200 times, which is 22.7% of the white population. Blacks were contacted 6,146,600 times, which is 19.8% of the black population.  So, white people are more likely to be contacted by police. I’ve already quoted the statistics for unarmed law enforcement deaths. Nine unarmed black people were killed last year. 7 were actually attacking the officer, grabbing for the officers  gun, or trying to run the officer over with a vehicle. 2 officers were criminally charged. 
 

For kicks and giggles, let’s say that the number of law enforcement citizen contacts was approximately the same in 2019 as it was in 2015. Out of 6,146,600 contacts,  9 unarmed black people were killed. That equates to .00014642% of the time that a law enforcement officers contact a black man, he will die as an unarmed (as defined by WaPo) suspect. Systematic racism? Show me. 

 

Again, it’s anecdotal and hurt feelings aka mostly “I’m black and I think the cops pulled me over just cuz I’m black and I don’t appreciate that”.

 

As far as Chauvin goes specifically, I have no idea. Maybe he’s a racist. Maybe he’s just a piece of *****? Either way, there’s no evidence of systemic racism in LE. 

FFS, how many times do I have to say it, I SUSPECT racism plays a part, but I have no tangible evidence. 
 

What evidence would suffice for you? I mean other than direct evidence like a cop recorded spewing racial epithets? 
 

Has there ever been a time in our nation’s history where systemic racism existed? Like in the Jim Crow south, for instance? What, it all magically disappeared when laws were rewritten? People on police forces had a sudden change of heart because people were awarded civil rights protection? This was in my lifetime. Can you honestly claim black people don’t have just cause to be leery given the not so distant history here? 
 

I’ll say it one last time because this has grown tiresome: I don’t think it’s about proving whether a cop is racist or not. It’s about whether he’s fit to serve; about purging bad cops from the force. Period. Motive doesn’t matter. These men were BLACK. We witnessed yet another murder on TV. The optic is enough to fuel the suspicion and tensions. Stop trying to make it sound like people have no legit reason to complain or that everyone is stupid for having such a visceral reaction. Or that we are all lemmings because we just don’t want to take the time to break everything down statistically like that somehow explains it better. Lemmings come in all colors. 
 

And does this all come down to hurt feelings for you? Actually, never mind. Sorry your feeling were hurt if someone called you a racist. 
 

Have a good night. 

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, vincec said:

It’s the culture of unaccountability that’s surrounds the police. If there were no videos there would be no charges. The police never commit any crimes according to them and their unions.

Excellent point. The Unions can not be left off the hook.

[Sig1Hunter]

4 minutes ago, K-9 said:

FFS, how many times do I have to say it, I SUSPECT racism plays a part, but I have no tangible evidence. 
 

What evidence would suffice for you? I mean other than direct evidence like a cop recorded spewing racial epithets? 
 

Has there ever been a time in our nation’s history where systemic racism existed? Like in the Jim Crow south, for instance? What, it all magically disappeared when laws were rewritten? People on police forces had a sudden change of heart because people were awarded civil rights protection? This was in my lifetime. Can you honestly claim black people don’t have just cause to be leery given the not so distant history here? 
 

I’ll say it one last time because this has grown tiresome: I don’t think it’s about proving whether a cop is racist or not. It’s about whether he’s fit to serve; about purging bad cops from the force. Period. Motive doesn’t matter. These men were BLACK. We witnessed yet another murder on TV. The optic is enough to fuel the suspicion and tensions. Stop trying to make it sound like people have no legit reason to complain or that everyone is stupid for having such a visceral reaction. Or that we are all lemmings because we just don’t want to take the time to break everything down statistically like that somehow explains it better. Lemmings come in all colors. 
 

And does this all come down to hurt feelings for you? Actually, never mind. Sorry your feeling were hurt if someone called you a racist. 
 

Have a good night. 

Ok. So no evidence of systemic racism. I gave you evidence that directly refutes the idea that blacks are even contacted more by law enforcement.  I gave you direct evidence that blacks commit more violent crime than other races.  I gave you direct evidence that this boogeyman that you keep referencing of unarmed black men getting gunned down on the street does not actually exist. And, you have nothing. Got it. Keep marching!

 

Night night!

Edited June 7, 2020 by Sig1Hunter

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, vincec said:

It’s the culture of unaccountability that’s surrounds the police. If there were no videos there would be no charges. The police never commit any crimes according to them and their unions.

Look, the very nature of their jobs commands a high level of benefit of the doubt. And I try to afford them that at every turn. 
 

But there is also a level of unaccountability involved as well. And you’re right, their unions will go to extraordinary lengths to protect even a bad cop if they can. 
 

There seems to have been a transformation from my grandfather’s and uncles’ times as LEOs from guardians who serve and protect to more of a warrior mentality. Indeed, with all this surplus military equipment now in police forces, they can sometimes resemble a paramilitary organization rather than community protectors. Again, poor optics. Even my own discourse with them over the last 20 years or so has taken on a different tone. 
 

Much of that may have to do with the added pressure of more readily available public scrutiny, the continued decay in many of the communities they serve in, the ease at which criminals can arm themselves with ever increasing lethality, etc. Perhaps all that serves to tighten their circle, but the onus is not on us to adjust. It’s on them.

[Nuncha]

On 6/5/2020 at 8:43 PM, TroutDog said:

This entire narrative needs work, in my opinion. You CAN be pro BLM (Kaepernick) AND pro police. We do not need to segregate into a ‘this or that’ proposition...both can exist together. 
 

I gave a tremendous amount for this country...NOT the anthem. What Kaepernick did was SPECIFICALLY what I fought for: our rights under the Constitution! I have always respected what he did and only wish those of us who see the world as black/white or ones/twos could calm themselves and see a larger picture. ? 

Don't dishonor the flag as a vehicle for your cause.  There are other ways to make your point.

[Sig1Hunter]

10 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Look, the very nature of their jobs commands a high level of benefit of the doubt. And I try to afford them that at every turn. 
 

But there is also a level of unaccountability involved as well. And you’re right, their unions will go to extraordinary lengths to protect even a bad cop if they can. 
 

There seems to have been a transformation from my grandfather’s and uncles’ times as LEOs from guardians who serve and protect to more of a warrior mentality. Indeed, with all this surplus military equipment now in police forces, they can sometimes resemble a paramilitary organization rather than community protectors. Again, poor optics. Even my own discourse with them over the last 20 years or so has taken on a different tone. 
 

Much of that may have to do with the added pressure of more readily available public scrutiny, the continued decay in many of the communities they serve in, the ease at which criminals can arm themselves with ever increasing lethality, etc. Perhaps all that serves to tighten their circle, but the onus is not on us to adjust. It’s on them.

So cops during your grandfathers and uncles time are now the model? Those were the racist cops from the Jim Crow era that you referenced earlier in your argument that centered around the belief that “cops were racist 60 years ago, so they have to be racist now”. Which is it? Or is everything just subjective belief? 
 

These are just rhetorical questions for you to ponder.

[Rocky Landing]

19 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said:

Ok. So no evidence of systemic racism. I gave you evidence that directly refutes the idea that blacks are even contacted more by law enforcement.  I gave you direct evidence that blacks commit more violent crime than other races.  I gave you direct evidence that this boogeyman that you keep referencing of unarmed black men getting gunned down on the street does not actually exist. And, you have nothing. Got it. Keep marching!

 

Night night!

This will be my one, and only post to you. If you truly have no idea of what systemic racism means, or what the concepts of white privilege are, then I'm going to assume a certain amount of willful ignorance on your part. But, to answer your assertion of "no evidence of systemic racism," here are several links, which took me all of ten seconds to find:

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-04/Numbers-behind-anger-U-S-racism-inequality-in-stats-R39PKBLwty/index.html

https://inequality.org/facts/racial-inequality/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/09/18/theres-overwhelming-evidence-that-the-criminal-justice-system-is-racist-heres-the-proof/

https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/

 

Honestly, considering the tone of your posts, I don't expect you to take a single one of these seriously. But, I didn't want your cherry-picked, context-lacking "evidence" to be anywhere near the last word, just for the sake of the otherwise rational discussion that has been occurring on this thread.

[spartacus]

1 minute ago, Rocky Landing said:

This will be my one, and only post to you. If you truly have no idea of what systemic racism means, or what the concepts of white privilege are, then I'm going to assume a certain amount of willful ignorance on your part. But, to answer your assertion of "no evidence of systemic racism," here are several links, which took me all of ten seconds to find:

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-04/Numbers-behind-anger-U-S-racism-inequality-in-stats-R39PKBLwty/index.html

https://inequality.org/facts/racial-inequality/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/09/18/theres-overwhelming-evidence-that-the-criminal-justice-system-is-racist-heres-the-proof/

https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/

 

Honestly, considering the tone of your posts, I don't expect you to take a single one of these seriously. But, I didn't want your cherry-picked, context-lacking "evidence" to be anywhere near the last word, just for the sake of the otherwise rational discussion that has been occurring on this thread.

looks like reparations paid forever and personal apologies from all privileged whites is the minimum penance required

[TroutDog]

16 minutes ago, Azucho98 said:

Don't dishonor the flag as a vehicle for your cause.  There are other ways to make your point.

Perhaps you should read AND comprehend the US Constitution. Just a thought. 

[GoBills808]

Isn't it hard to argue that it's just 'a few bad cops' ruining the rest's reputation when 57 of them from one unit resign in solidarity with the two who shoved the guy to the ground?