Anybody want to go on record about Josh?

[JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS]

floor: Jim Kelly

 

ceiling: GOAT

 

assuming he stays healthy and we keep the current FO.

[Dr. Who]

9 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said:

I’m curious as to how “gamer” and “leader” are quantified and made into a statistic.

Some things don't reduce to a number. Folks know what he means, though those who think Josh won't earn a second contract will act like it is a meaningless emotive comment I guess.

[JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS]

9 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said:

I’m curious as to how “gamer” and “leader” are quantified and made into a statistic.

that's easy:

 

wins as an underdog with > 3 point spread.

 

luck is a factor there, but so are leadership on the field and an iron will to win.

 

 

[eball]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

So what if I think he cracks the top half but not the top 10?

 

Start your own poll.

[Shaw66]

Top 10 in 2021, if not earlier, assuming the 2020 season is played. 

[papazoid]

i'm going the other way...

 

josh will never in his entire career, crack the Top 10 in passer rating or total QBR....(ducking....lol)

 

i do see him getting a second contract that pays him like a top 10.

 

hypothetical....if every season all nfl QB's were redrafted based solely on the upcoming season.....i say he'd go around 15th.

 

 

[Buddo]

Kid's a worker and a winner.

 

Barring injuries, he will be the 'franchise' QB we've waited so long for.

 

Might not be certain until 2021 season though, due to the vaguaries of the current situation as regards what sort of season 2020 will bring.

7 minutes ago, papazoid said:

i'm going the other way...

 

josh will never in his entire career, crack the Top 10 in passer rating or total QBR....(ducking....lol)

 

i do see him getting a second contract that pays him like a top 10.

 

hypothetical....if every season all nfl QB's were redrafted based solely on the upcoming season.....i say he'd go around 15th.

 

 

 

I wonder where that puts the rest of the QBs drafted with him then, as I only see Jackson as being ahead of him under those circumstances.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

I don't think Allen ever becomes a Top 10 QB.  

 

I think a lot of starting Quarterbacks around the league could have done what Allen did last year with that schedule and that defense. 

 

It would be new data point for him to become a top flight passer. 

 

At the end of this season, I think we will have seen 90% of his potential maximum, so I don't think he is on some linear or exponential climb in Year 4, 5, 6, and so on. 

 

We'll see the bulk of the improvement he has left, this season. 

   

[Cripple Creek]

12 hours ago, eball said:

I’m curious...lots of talk about this and that. What do you predict?

None of the above.  

 

Cracks the top half, not the top 10. Leads Bills for 2+ contracts.

[FireChans]

None of the above. A combo of Matt Stafford/Jay Cutler type career. Earns a second contract, is franchise material. Never is a truly elite QB but has his share of great seasons.

[eball]

3 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I don't think Allen ever becomes a Top 10 QB.  

 

I think a lot of starting Quarterbacks around the league could have done what Allen did last year with that schedule and that defense. 

 

It would be new data point for him to become a top flight passer. 

 

At the end of this season, I think we will have seen 90% of his potential maximum, so I don't think he is on some linear or exponential climb in Year 4, 5, 6, and so on. 

 

We'll see the bulk of the improvement he has left, this season. 

   

 

I agree we'll see a huge jump this season, but I disagree that's "all he has left."  Josh was so raw coming out of college that he will continue to learn and develop over the next several years.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

10 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said:

I’m curious as to how “gamer” and “leader” are quantified and made into a statistic.

Wins 

[ChattanoogaBills]

Allen will become a top three QB in the NFL with the Bills and Buffalo will win multiple SBs with JA at QB.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

9 hours ago, Bss said:

Tebow was never going to be good but intangibles mattered.  Without them hes the original Nate Peterman, with them he was a bizarre national phenomenon who managed to pull off a lot of crazy ***** despite his complete lack of talent. 

I will forever consider his Silly jump pass Thing one of the dumbest looking football things I have ever seen. 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

18 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I don't think Allen ever becomes a Top 10 QB.  

 

I think a lot of starting Quarterbacks around the league could have done what Allen did last year with that schedule and that defense. 

 

It would be new data point for him to become a top flight passer. 

 

At the end of this season, I think we will have seen 90% of his potential maximum, so I don't think he is on some linear or exponential climb in Year 4, 5, 6, and so on. 

 

We'll see the bulk of the improvement he has left, this season. 

   

 

Put your money where your mouth is and vote; don't hide!

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

11 minutes ago, eball said:

 

I agree we'll see a huge jump this season, but I disagree that's "all he has left."  Josh was so raw coming out of college that he will continue to learn and develop over the next several years.

 

The raw designation starts to lose its luster if he gets through 16 games this season. 

 

He does that and its 44 games played, 43 started. 

Just now, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

Put your money where your mouth is and vote; don't hide!

 

 

I am trying to decide between the first two options. 

 

Do I see the Bills not renewing his contract, not sure, Beane and McDermott love him. 

 

Do I see a big extension, hard to see that either. 

 

I think I'm going with an Andy Dalton type career, can get a team to the Playoffs if the talent is great around him, but not a lot of Playoff success. Gets a middle of the road of second contract. 

 

 

[Hampton Josh fan]

12 hours ago, Bss said:

Put Matt Stafford on this roster and I think he goes really far. Not his fault he has to play for the lions.

I'd take pre injury 2018 Cam Newton any day of the week

Cam had a me first, bang on his chest attitude. His skill set was good but Josh has higher ceiling skills with incredible leadership intangibles. Your comparison lacks the appreciation for a team first, winning mentality. After 2 years of steady progress and a playoff berth, why the Josh negativity?

[Straight Hucklebuck]

6 minutes ago, Hampton Josh fan said:

Cam had a me first, bang on his chest attitude. His skill set was good but Josh has higher ceiling skills with incredible leadership intangibles. Your comparison lacks the appreciation for a team first, winning mentality. After 2 years of steady progress and a playoff berth, why the Josh negativity?

 

Cam won a Heisman, won a National Championship, was drafted #1 overall, threw for 4,000 yards right away in the NFL, won an MVP. 

 

Josh was never an elite player in lower level college, was drafted on his skill set not his production on the field, and thus far has not shown to be a consistent NFL passer. 

 

I think in Buffalo we overrate the work ethic, the blue collar, the swell guy, and underrate winning and production. Like Buffalo is the only team out there studying their playbooks and working hard.  

 

We also love to declare war on "me-first" guys. Cam was the face of the Panthers for 8-9 seasons. 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[MrSarcasm]

I will go on record saying he is Tim Tebow with the talent. Take it for what it is, good and bad.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Given Allen's first two years, his Scouting Reports coming out of College, I think its delusional that 83% of fans think he will be a Top 10 QB for the Bills.

 

Have we seen any consistency that indicates this? His running? 

 

What are we looking at here? He is a bottom 1/3rd NFL QB right now, and has to jump at least 12 more QBs to crack the Top 10. 

 

I understand being hopeful, I understand the argument that he can improve and has improvement left, but 83% confident he becomes a Top 10 QB in the league? That's not based on facts, that's just hope. 

 

 

 

 

[Penfield45]

12 hours ago, Hebert19 said:

Sorry but this is a terrible comparison.   As a dawgs fan I have followed stafford since the day he signed.  Stafford is not the alpha male on any team.  He doesn't have the clutch gene in spite of his come from behind wins (he was the reason they were behind quite often.)  

 

He will not win a superbowl and I believe Josh will.  Josh has more heart in his baby finger that stafford does...now his wife on other hand is a champ. 

 

heart doesn't win you superbowls lol. talent does

 

And Stafford is a far superior passer than Allen. Josh needs to work on his accuracy and start racking up 300+ yard games 

[DasNootz]

40 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

None of the above.  

 

Cracks the top half, not the top 10. Leads Bills for 2+ contracts.

 

About right - he'll be an "Average" caliber starting NFL QB - something we haven't consistently had in a long time.  He will continue to make plays that wow you, and plays that have you scratching your head.  For the next 8 years he'll be a Top 15 QB +/- 5 spots in any given year. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

12 minutes ago, Penfield45 said:

 

heart doesn't win you superbowls lol. talent does

 

And Stafford is a far superior passer than Allen. Josh needs to work on his accuracy and start racking up 300+ yard games 

 

Stafford was the 1st overall pick out of the SEC. In Stafford's third year in the league he threw for 5,000 yards and 41 TDs. 

 

A lot of QBs could have led the Bills last year. Sorry, that's the truth. The defense allowed 16.2 ppg. The schedule was soft. 

 

Allen isn't a tire fire. But you'd have to be projecting to say he is on a path to being a top flight NFL passer based on his college career and first two seasons. 

 

And I think 90% of Allen will be baked in at the end of this year. You'll know, and I'm in support of the Bills giving him all the starts, all the reps, all the time he needs to improve, no issues there. Do it. Surround him with talent, go for it. 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

4 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Given Allen's first two years, his Scouting Reports coming out of College, I think its delusional that 83% of fans think he will be a Top 10 QB for the Bills.

 

Have we seen any consistency that indicates this? His running? 

 

What are we looking at here? He is a bottom 1/3rd NFL QB right now, and has to jump at least 12 more QBs to crack the Top 10. 

 

I understand being hopeful, I understand the argument that he can improve and has improvement left, but 83% confident he becomes a Top 10 QB in the league? That's not based on facts, that's just hope. 

 

 

 

 

 

It's not just fans, there's many professional pundits who see it the same as the fans and there are pundits who see it the same as you.  It's only delusional to you because you want to frame it that way.  The kid was drafted on talent and the ability of the coaches to extract that potential out of him.  He wasn't drafted because he played at Wyoming.  Some of you put way too much stock in college statistics and scouting reports which are not 100% factual indicators of NFL success or failure.  If he fails, it's just as much a coaching failure as it is a failure on the player, because EVERYONE knows he was drafted on potential based on his physical skill set, and the coaches bear a certain responsibility to extract that out of him since they had a say in drafting him.  If you don't see his improvement trending in the right direction, you are simply blind, biased, or just trolling.   I will agree that many of us here to hope he reaches his potential, there are several here like yourself who hope to see him fail so you can feel virtuous.  

[Dragoon]

I’ll go on record. I like him and if he improves he could be great. Now if you’ll all excuse me I need a cold shower after going that hot. 

[FireChans]

32 minutes ago, Hampton Josh fan said:

Cam had a me first, bang on his chest attitude. His skill set was good but Josh has higher ceiling skills with incredible leadership intangibles. Your comparison lacks the appreciation for a team first, winning mentality. After 2 years of steady progress and a playoff berth, why the Josh negativity?

Josh did not have a higher ceiling than Cam did as a prospect.

[CapeBreton]

He’ll never be a top 5 QB in the league which is fine, I don’t see why he can’t be top 10 though. 

[Figster]

13 minutes ago, Penfield45 said:

 

heart doesn't win you superbowls lol. talent does

 

And Stafford is a far superior passer than Allen. Josh needs to work on his accuracy and start racking up 300+ yard games 

Josh Allen has got it all, heart, God given talent and most importantly brains.

 

The Bills ability to run and pass backed by a top 3 D is going to win a Championship.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Just now, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

It's not just fans, there's many professional pundits who see it the same as the fans and there are pundits who see it the same as you.  It's only delusional to you because you want to frame it that way.  The kid was drafted on talent and the ability of the coaches to extract that potential out of him.  He wasn't drafted because he played at Wyoming.  Some of you put way too much stock in college statistics and scouting reports which are not 100% factual indicators of NFL success or failure.  If he fails, it's just as much a coaching failure as it is a failure on the player, because EVERYONE knows he was drafted on potential based on his physical skill set, and the coaches bear a certain responsibility to extract that out of him since they had a say in drafting him.  If you don't see his improvement trending in the right direction, you are simply blind, biased, or just trolling.   I will agree that many of us here to hope he reaches his potential, there are several here like yourself who hope to see him fail so you can feel virtuous.  

The poll is on twobillsdrive, inside this thread, where Bills fans reside. 

 

That's 83% that I'm referring to. 

 

Thanks.

 

Furthermore, you don't have a factual leg to stand on. He wasn't an elite passer in college, and hasn't been so far. Now, I've said in other threads that I throw out 2018 because he was a rookie, with deplorable skill position players and a bad offensive line. 

 

But other than banking on his work ethic to correct mistakes, I'm not convinced of a can't-miss trajectory towards Top 10. 

 

Can he get to middle of the road? Yes, I can see that. 

[Billl]

13 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

I think this is very fair but I still think Allen has one of , if not the highest ceiling for young QBs. 

Cam was pretty dominant for a time though. 

Also think Josh is a better leader of men , I think Can and his extra flamboyant style and personality rubs some guys the wrong way and Josh is already a phenomenal leader imo. His mentality is everything you'd want from a Franchise QB. 

What makes his ceiling so high?  I think most people would agree he’s a top 10 athlete at the QB position, probably around 7th.  What makes you say his ceiling is higher than guys like Lamar, Pat, DeShaun, etc.?

[Straight Hucklebuck]

13 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

 there are several here like yourself who hope to see him fail so you can feel virtuous.  

 

This is the classic line I was waiting for. 

 

Yup, that's me, lived 20 minutes from the stadium for 24 years of my life, but yes I want pain and suffering on all WNY, just so that I can stand on the glorious Mountain Top of TBD and yell out, I was right on Josh Allen. 

 

Yes, that's my end goal, you're right, not attending a Super Bowl parade Downtown. Rather, bypass all that so I can yell out how right I was on Josh Allen...

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

The poll is on twobillsdrive, inside this thread, where Bills fans reside. 

 

That's 83% that I'm referring to. 

 

Thanks.

 

Furthermore, you don't have a factual leg to stand on. He wasn't an elite passer in college, and hasn't been so far. Now, I've said in other threads that I throw out 2018 because he was a rookie, with deplorable skill position players and a bad offensive line. 

 

But other than banking on his work ethic to correct mistakes, I'm not convinced of a can't-miss trajectory towards Top 10. 

 

Can he get to middle of the road? Yes, I can see that. 

Imagine thinking it’s a surprise that a Bills fan board has borderline unrealistic hopes for a Bills player.

 

Truly, you are a genius for discovering this phenomenon. Next up, some Pats fans think Jarrett Stidham might be good! Can you believe it??? 

[GaryPinC]

Voted for the middle option but I think Josh finishes just outside the top 10.  Deep game took a back seat last year because Daboll focused on JA's timing and reads in the short to intermediate game.  And JA progressed but still really needs work on quicker decisions at game speed.  His speed of mental processing post-snap.   And understanding the design of the play and incorporating it into his decision making (ex. passing play shows single coverage pre-snap but post-snap middle of field opens up for late crossing route.  JA relied on pre-snap read last year, now needs to wait for late route if his pocket holds up.)

 

I expect more emphasis on the deep game, but Diggs' ability to flash open in the intermediate routes and YAC doesn't necessarily make it so.

Definitely curious to see how Daboll tasks him out of the gate.

 

So, given his rawness, I expect he'll make a jump but it'll be most notable after midseason and then lookout for 2021!

Unless he really fails this year I expect he'll get his new contract.

[Chicken Boo]

Josh reminds me of a young Elway.

 

*Elway didn't win until the Broncos boasted the best rushing attack in football, led by one of the great RBs this league has seen.

 

Josh will not carry this team to glory, trying to be a hero.  If it happens, it'll be on the back of a stud rushing attack, complimented by Allen's "gameness" i.e. his ability to make something out of nothing, with an important throw here and there.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Imagine thinking it’s a surprise that a Bills fan board has borderline unrealistic hopes for a Bills player.

 

Truly, you are a genius for discovering this phenomenon. Next up, some Pats fans think Jarrett Stidham might be good! Can you believe it??? 

 

Did I call it a surprise? 

 

No, I said it was delusional based on what we've seen that its 83% likely that Allen becomes a Top 10 QB. 

 

I think its more reasonable, based on what we've seen that he becomes an average starter. So, that is not the same as saying he stinks, or whatever embellishment you can come up with. 

 

With all that said, I feel that we should know 90% of who Allen will become after this season. I don't think in Year 4, 5, 6, 7 he suddenly gets much better. 

 

Feel free to disagree, but once again, who goes on the attack? And who has stayed factual. You get emotionally hurt and lash out because you are attached to the team. I want the Bills to win, but I don't twist the results to fit the narrative. Maybe Allen blows everyone away this year, me included. He becomes great, 4,000 yards, scoring plays. I will be the first one to claim I was wrong. Didn't see it coming. It's not that big of a deal. 

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

Did I call it a surprise? 

 

No, I said it was delusional based on what we've seen that its 83% likely that Allen becomes a Top 10 QB. 

 

I think its more reasonable, based on what we've seen that he becomes an average starter. So, that is not the same as saying he stinks, or whatever embellishment you can come up with. 

 

With all that said, I feel that we should know 90% of who Allen will become after this season. I don't think in Year 4, 5, 6, 7 he suddenly gets much better. 

 

Feel free to disagree, but once again, who goes on the attack? And who has stayed factual. You get emotionally hurt and lash out because you are attached to the team. I want the Bills to win, but I don't twist the results to fit the narrative. Maybe Allen blows everyone away this year, me included. He becomes great, 4,000 yards, scoring plays. I will be the first one to claim I was wrong. Didn't see it coming. It's not that big of a deal. 

Calling Bills fans delusional on a Bills board because of their homer takes gets you attacked. Another shocking conclusion. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Calling Bills fans delusional on a Bills board because of their homer takes gets you attacked. Another shocking conclusion. 

 

I don't care FireChans, because you have a big bag of nothing to present that he is on an arc towards Top 10. 

 

The reality says its more likely he becomes an average starter. 

 

And that's okay, he isn't a bust or anything if that's where he lands, just means the Bills will have to support like they've done roster wise and stability wise. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

21 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

The poll is on twobillsdrive, inside this thread, where Bills fans reside. 

 

That's 83% that I'm referring to. 

 

Thanks.

 

Furthermore, you don't have a factual leg to stand on. He wasn't an elite passer in college, and hasn't been so far. Now, I've said in other threads that I throw out 2018 because he was a rookie, with deplorable skill position players and a bad offensive line. 

 

But other than banking on his work ethic to correct mistakes, I'm not convinced of a can't-miss trajectory towards Top 10. 

 

Can he get to middle of the road? Yes, I can see that. 

 

No Sh** it's a Two Bills Drive poll and that is where you are pulling your 83% from.  I just stated that many professional pundits share that same sentiment that many of the 83% share.  I also stated that many pundits share your opinion.   I never said he was an elite passer at Wyoming.  I stated he was drafted on potential and his raw skill set...do you dispute that?

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 minute ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

I stated he was drafted on potential and his raw skill set...do you dispute that?

 

This is 100% accurate. He's 6'5", 230 with a rocket arm and good mobility, with limited college production. 

 

I think he reminded Beane and McDermott of Cam Newton, because Beane works Cam's name into a lot of interviews when discussing Allen unprompted. 

 

 

 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

9 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

This is 100% accurate. He's 6'5", 230 with a rocket arm and good mobility, with limited college production. 

 

I think he reminded Beane and McDermott of Cam Newton, because Beane works Cam's name into a lot of interviews when discussing Allen unprompted. 

 

 

 

 

Is he trending in the right direction, meaning did he improve from year 1 to year 2, even if he is still in the bottom 1/3 based on chosen metrics?  Are the coaches having an impact?

Edited May 15, 2020 by Lieutenant Aldo Raine