and the Layoffs begin @ Pegula Sports

[Lurker]

17 minutes ago, bbb said:

 

A lot of words to say the same thing over and over and over. 

 

So?    They appear to be accurate and well-invistigated words...   

[GunnerBill]

Scathing piece in the athletic

[BillsVet]

It used to be on these boards individual players were run out of town when they didn't do as fans expected.  Now, it's a graduation to owners.  

 

I understand that losing, especially with the Sabres, has become hard to stomach.  The Bills seem to be on the right path, but fixing the owners as bad because they're wealthy is something I don't subscribe to.  

 

It is speculated the Pegula's source of funding in the natural gas industry has been the root cause for the pro sports team decisions.  And it seems reasonable to conclude they became over-leveraged with other business interests.  Still, it doesn't make my life any better criticizing them or their business decisions.  I do not understanding how needing a grievance makes anyone's life better.  It's horrible people are let go, but sharpening the ax because of that is not value added.  

[PromoTheRobot]

4 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

It used to be on these boards individual players were run out of town when they didn't do as fans expected.  Now, it's a graduation to owners.  

 

I understand that losing, especially with the Sabres, has become hard to stomach.  The Bills seem to be on the right path, but fixing the owners as bad because they're wealthy is something I don't subscribe to.  

 

It is speculated the Pegula's source of funding in the natural gas industry has been the root cause for the pro sports team decisions.  And it seems reasonable to conclude they became over-leveraged with other business interests.  Still, it doesn't make my life any better criticizing them or their business decisions.  I do not understanding how needing a grievance makes anyone's life better.  It's horrible people are let go, but sharpening the ax because of that is not value added.  

 

And let's consider the outcome here. Do we want to run the Pegulas out of town? What happens next? From where does the next multi-billionaire that loves Buffalo come along that won't move our teams? I'm willing to overlook a lot to keep my teams here.

[bbb]

25 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

So?    They appear to be accurate and well-invistigated words...   

 

Really?  Cost cutting, cost cutting, cost cutting.  Really well investigated enough to write a super long article repeating the same words.  But, you have your vendetta so you buy in and think it's a great article.  

[That's No Moon]

5 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

And let's consider the outcome here. Do we want to run the Pegulas out of town? What happens next? From where does the next multi-billionaire that loves Buffalo come along that won't move our teams? I'm willing to overlook a lot to keep my teams here.

One of the first outcomes will be that they ask the community they just layed off 100+ people from to foot the bill for a stadium.

[ndirish1978]

On 4/15/2020 at 9:40 AM, Mr. WEO said:

 

Agreed.  As long as that business runs a profit, they will keep it, no matter how awful the product is.  If it regularly loses money they will for sure cash out.

 They are reportedly losing 20-30M per year on the Sabres per Tim Graham

[eball]

Man, it's really open season on the Pegulas these days.  Hopefully they get things figured out -- always thought they were growing that company a little too quickly.

[bbb]

1 minute ago, ndirish1978 said:

 They are reportedly losing 20-30M per year on the Sabres per Tim Graham

 

A source with knowledge of the numbers said the Sabres have been losing between $40 million and $60 million the past few seasons.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, That's No Moon said:

One of the first outcomes will be that they ask the community they just layed off 100+ people from to foot the bill for a stadium.

 

That is likely, but it's equally likely if they were a well-run operation. Frankly, a new stadium may well have just become a back burner issue thanks to Covid-19.

Edited April 20, 2020 by PromoTheRobot

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

That is likely, but it's equally likely if there were a well-run operation. Frankly, a new stadium may well have just become a back burner issue thanks to Covid-19.

I think the stadium issue will be taken off the stove completely for a while after this crisis. 

[plenzmd1]

42 minutes ago, MassHog said:

Pegulas... they are poor just like us! It is pretty insane that a company as big as PSE, who holds 2 huge sports teams, didn't have a plan if a disaster hit. 

Buffalo would do very well with an XFL team. 

Not one single buinsess in the whole of the US had a plan for a pandemic that shut down the entire economy...think ia little

3 minutes ago, bbb said:

 

Really?  Cost cutting, cost cutting, cost cutting.  Really well investigated enough to write a super long article repeating the same words.  But, you have your vendetta so you buy in and think it's a great article.  

POsted in the Sabre thread, Kim went full blast mode here. This was about way more than cost cutting, this was we was getting screwed by Exewcs that did not have the best interests of the team or PSE at heart..which leads to a "toxic work culture" and Executive teams not being trusted. Common in tons business that not meeting goals and being successful. I would have expected respnces from terminated people in a pandemic to be any different

[Lurker]

7 minutes ago, bbb said:

 

Really?  Cost cutting, cost cutting, cost cutting.  Really well investigated enough to write a super long article repeating the same words.  But, you have your vendetta so you buy in and think it's a great article.  

 

No vendetta.   But, thanks for giving me a good laugh...

[SeattleBills]

11 hours ago, bbb said:

 

You have 14 posts and most of them are about the Pegulas.  Nothing suspicious here.  

So what? Nothing not to do with facts that are coming out of every corner based on their ineptitude and incompetence. 

[Lurker]

21 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

It used to be on these boards individual players were run out of town when they didn't do as fans expected.  Now, it's a graduation to owners.  

 

LOL!  And you call yourself a vet?

 

This is nothing compared to what was posted here about Ralph's impecible management skills over the years.    But thanks for posting...

[plenzmd1]

1 minute ago, SeattleBills said:

So what? Nothing not to do with facts that are coming out of every corner based on their ineptitude and incompetence. 

quotes from 39 disgruntled employees does not make things "facts". Sure sounds like something nefrious was going on with some these people.. 

[JohnC]

13 hours ago, SeattleBills said:

As a marketing exec, I completely concur with another billionaire who “gets it”. Mark Cuban says how companies treat workers during pandemic could define their brand 'for decades'. The excuse-making around here for the Pegulas is pathetic. They are tone-deaf and clueless. Would love to see either’s horsepower in a corporate environment such as Microsoft or Amazon ... where you have to have a brain and common sense as well. Talk about timing being key; in any other life this dude and his wife would be shleps in real life from net worth standpoint ... you know, the way they are from character standpoint.

As a marketing exec you have the luxury of giving advice without facing the realities of cash flow and meeting payroll. There isn't any business within their portfolio of energy, hospitality and ownership of sport franchises that isn't in a precarious financial situation. There is a longball game in a real world challenging economic environment that is going to last probably longer than a year. It's called survival. The Pegulas are attempting to make painful decisions that affect the lives of their employees in order to exist in the future. Marketing in many respects is presenting an attractive illusion to make their products appealing to potential customers. What happens when you don't have customers to sustain your business? Owners have to face the facts of the real business world where there is a relationship between income coming in versus incoming going out. The manner in which the Pegulas are handling this historic pandemic is in line with the way other businesses are the handling situation.  

[SeattleBills]

1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said:

quotes from 39 disgruntled employees does not make things "facts". Sure sounds like something nefrious was going on with some these people.. 

Tim Graham took submissions from current and former PSE Employees and also had questions answered via email from Kim Pegula here are some excerpts from the Article
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Edited April 20, 2020 by Chandler#81
Removed copywrited material. Moderated.

[ndirish1978]

These discussions are just wheel-spinning and discussions of "public persona" or "civic responsibility" are a waste of time. The Pegulas own both Buffalo teams and will continue to run both of those teams, as well as their other companies, however the hell they want to run them. Here is why this discussion is a waste of time and we saw it for years during the end of Ralph's ownership - If you don't like the Pegulas and how they run things, your only real option is to stop supporting their teams. Eventually, if they lose enough money because you don't like how the Pegulas run their businesses, they will sell those teams and most likely the new owners will move them to a larger market. OneBuffalo is a marketing scheme and not a real thing? Color me shocked! Ownership of a sports team is a public trust? Not really.

 

@SeattleBills you obviously joined this board just to talk smack about the Pegulas, that's fine, it's a crusade and against the TOS, but I don't really care. The fact that you believe that your whining will accomplish anything is ridiculous though.You're also copying and pasting way more than just a few snippets from a paywall article, which isn't really allowed. Am I supposed to care that a business owner would choose their lifestyle over your employment? I like football, so I will buy Bills stuff because that's my team. 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Chandler#81
Moderator edited to remove copywrited material

[Doc]

25 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

 They are reportedly losing 20-30M per year on the Sabres per Tim Graham

 

24 minutes ago, bbb said:

A source with knowledge of the numbers said the Sabres have been losing between $40 million and $60 million the past few seasons.

 

How can that be?  They would have sold the team by now.

[RiotAct]

28 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

One of the first outcomes will be that they ask the community they just layed off 100+ people from to foot the bill for a stadium.

not gonna happen.  At least, not anytime in the near to medium-term future.

Edited April 20, 2020 by RiotAct

[ndirish1978]

I dunno, i was just lazily remembering what I thought I saw in an article I just read. If bbb went back and looked it up, his numbers are probably more accurate than mine. 

[Doc]

6 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

not gonna happen.  At least, not anytime in the near to medium-term future.

 

Yup.  This pandemic will have long-lasting repercussions and a new stadium will be out of the discussion for awhile.

[aristocrat]

7 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

 

How can that be?  They would have sold the team by now.

 

yea there is no way they're losing that much money on that team.  the yotes didnt even lose that much. and the teams all received tons of cash from the new teams coming into the league. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

I just read the whole article...  Here are my conclusions

 

Tim Graham - I get being outraged etc. But for whatever reason it never comes off as journalism.  It reads very editorial for whatever reason, and like a pissed off editorial.

 

PSE - A few things 1-they're clearly struggling with cash flow (None of their sports franchises are producing any income, their restaurants and hotels are either closed or losing money, and they have assets tied up probably in real estate and the stock market (not exactly a good time to sell Oil Futures)) 2-They're billionaires so people don't feel bad.  So I guess Tim Graham wants them to borrow money to give to people?  Or does he want them to sell the sabres or bills or something?  3-It doesn't sound like Kim is doing a particularly good job.  But it sounds like things aren't as good behind the scenes as she'd made it out to be in public.  So maybe thats what Tim is trying to expose?  At the end of the day, businesses make money.  If you're losing money you have to find ways to make money.  Layoffs are a part of that.  It may be "tone-deaf" to do it during a pandemic, but it's happening everywhere.  

 

I didn't realize the Sabres were doing so poorly financially.  I know he spent a bunch of money early on and they failed, but it sounds like the caps going up but TV and ticket prices aren't mirroring in smaller markets.  This to me points to another lockout.   You can't give players money that doesn't exist.  You also can't get out of fully guaranteed contracts very efficiently 

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

yea there is no way they're losing that much money on that team.  the yotes didnt even lose that much. and the teams all received tons of cash from the new teams coming into the league. 

 

It was a joke, in reference to another conversation.  I doubt the Sabres are losing that much, but I could see them losing money.

[BillsFan4]

39 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

And let's consider the outcome here. Do we want to run the Pegulas out of town? What happens next? From where does the next multi-billionaire that loves Buffalo come along that won't move our teams? I'm willing to overlook a lot to keep my teams here.

I don’t agree with some of the stuff the Pegulas have done, but if either of our teams are ever moved they won’t be replaced. We are one of the smallest, least profitable markets in both the NFL & NHL. That’s just reality. It was always too good to be true that some billionaire was just going to keep operating the team (Sabres) at a loss every year.

 

[Cripple Creek]

42 minutes ago, bbb said:

 

A source with knowledge of the numbers said the Sabres have been losing between $40 million and $60 million the past few seasons.

Do you know if that's Sabres, or if it includes Harbor Center etc.?

[aristocrat]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

It was a joke, in reference to another conversation.  I doubt the Sabres are losing that much, but I could see them losing money.

 

i dont doubt they have had losing money years esp out of the playoffs but 50 mil would mean the coyotes or florida would be losing double that. and that's just insane.

[KD in CA]

I'd be curious to hear from the 'tone-deaf' crowd exactly when layoffs will be ok again.

 

Also curious how many of those people are still paying their barber, cleaning lady, lawn guy, etc., even though many of those people are no longer providing their fee-based services.

[Mango]

I’ve posted this here before, but it is important to remember. Pegula is NOT a business man, he is a geologist. Pegula made his fortune by finding and digging natural gas. He did not do it by running a successful business. He had a partner (a Buffalo family) who did all of the negotiating, hiring, firing, financing, etc. so that Terry could be silo’d as finding natural gas. 
 

I have had some people role their eyes on here at this, but I promise you this is this case. I’m actually very good family friends with the family in question. I have known them since I was a kid (1980’s)well before the Pegula’s purchased any teams in Buffalo. I should note, said family has zero involvement with the current Pegula’s PSE ventures. This is Terry’s pet project. 
 

We used to joke as Ralph got older, and his death was becoming more of a when not if that “The Bills won’t leave Buffalo, xxx’s dad would never let that happen”...but it wasn’t really a joke. 

[bbb]

47 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

No vendetta.   But, thanks for giving me a good laugh...

 

Tell me one thing you learned from this so called article.  I'll tell you the only thing that had any meat to it.  The fact that ticket sellers weren't getting their commissions.  Everything else was just mush. 

 

44 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

quotes from 39 disgruntled employees does not make things "facts". Sure sounds like something nefrious was going on with some these people.. 

 

That's how you get this mush

 

28 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

 

How can that be?  They would have sold the team by now.

 

I would think!

 

26 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

I dunno, i was just lazily remembering what I thought I saw in an article I just read. If bbb went back and looked it up, his numbers are probably more accurate than mine. 

 

Actually, Timmah's lazy writing leaves both interpretations now that I think about - could be my number over two years or yours over one. 

 

9 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

Do you know if that's Sabres, or if it includes Harbor Center etc.?

 

Who knows - it's from Timmah's "source" 

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, Mango said:

I’ve posted this here before, but it is important to remember. Pegula is NOT a business man, he is a geologist. Pegula made his fortune by finding and digging natural gas. He did not do it by running a successful business. He had a partner (a Buffalo family) who did all of the negotiating, hiring, firing, financing, etc. so that Terry could be silo’d as finding natural gas. 
 

I have had some people role their eyes on here at this, but I promise you this is this case. I’m actually very good family friends with the family in question. I have known them since I was a kid (1980’s)well before the Pegula’s purchased any teams in Buffalo. I should note, said family has zero involvement with the current Pegula’s PSE ventures. This is Terry’s pet project. 
 

We used to joke as Ralph got older, and his death was becoming more of a when not if that “The Bills won’t leave Buffalo, xxx’s dad would never let that happen”...but it wasn’t really a joke. 

 

How much is the other family worth?  More than Terry?

 

And that other family would have kept the Bills from moving? 

[Cripple Creek]

4 minutes ago, bbb said:

Who knows - it's from Timmah's "source" 

I could "understand if it is tied to their downtown debt.  Sabres, not so much.'

[plenzmd1]

@SeattleBills, please don’t post entire articles. 
 

we can all see why you joined, and it makes my point. People who have lost their jobs are naturally upset. That have to blame someone, never themselves, and that is the Pegulas now. People on the Sabre thread , including @JohnC can tell you I was lambasting the Pegulas to their initial response to game day employees etc. 

 

but things have changed drastically  in the 6 weeks since that fateful Wednesday. And for Kim to come out guns ablazing , man , that should tell ya something. When is the last time an exec got fired and you did just not hear the perfunctory “ thank for their service and wish them well”. Implying some of these folks had motives other than making the teams and PSE successful is pretty damning, and I am sure pretty open from a liability standpoint. I mean she says flat out we were lied to and given false information. Wow. 
 

I put zero stock in ex employees replying anonymously.  

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

I’ve posted this here before, but it is important to remember. Pegula is NOT a business man, he is a geologist. Pegula made his fortune by finding and digging natural gas. He did not do it by running a successful business. He had a partner (a Buffalo family) who did all of the negotiating, hiring, firing, financing, etc. so that Terry could be silo’d as finding natural gas. 
 

I have had some people role their eyes on here at this, but I promise you this is this case. I’m actually very good family friends with the family in question. I have known them since I was a kid (1980’s)well before the Pegula’s purchased any teams in Buffalo. I should note, said family has zero involvement with the current Pegula’s PSE ventures. This is Terry’s pet project. 
 

We used to joke as Ralph got older, and his death was becoming more of a when not if that “The Bills won’t leave Buffalo, xxx’s dad would never let that happen”...but it wasn’t really a joke. 

A successful owner of a business is not always the same person who manages the business. Knowing what your strengths and weaknesses are in a complicated business environment is an indication that Pegula has enough humility and self-awareness to become a success. A lawyer who owns a firm isn't always the same person who manages the firm. A doctor who owns a large and varied practice isn't always the same person who manages the practice. The pizza mogul who owns a country-wide franchise business isn't always the same person who manages the business. 

[PromoTheRobot]

27 minutes ago, dneveu said:

I just read the whole article...  Here are my conclusions

 

Tim Graham - I get being outraged etc. But for whatever reason it never comes off as journalism.  It reads very editorial for whatever reason, and like a pissed off editorial.

 

PSE - A few things 1-they're clearly struggling with cash flow (None of their sports franchises are producing any income, their restaurants and hotels are either closed or losing money, and they have assets tied up probably in real estate and the stock market (not exactly a good time to sell Oil Futures)) 2-They're billionaires so people don't feel bad.  So I guess Tim Graham wants them to borrow money to give to people?  Or does he want them to sell the sabres or bills or something?  3-It doesn't sound like Kim is doing a particularly good job.  But it sounds like things aren't as good behind the scenes as she'd made it out to be in public.  So maybe thats what Tim is trying to expose?  At the end of the day, businesses make money.  If you're losing money you have to find ways to make money.  Layoffs are a part of that.  It may be "tone-deaf" to do it during a pandemic, but it's happening everywhere.  

 

I didn't realize the Sabres were doing so poorly financially.  I know he spent a bunch of money early on and they failed, but it sounds like the caps going up but TV and ticket prices aren't mirroring in smaller markets.  This to me points to another lockout.   You can't give players money that doesn't exist.  You also can't get out of fully guaranteed contracts very efficiently 

 

I think we found Tim Graham's new TBD burner account.

[Mango]

Just now, Doc said:

 

How much is the other family worth?  More than Terry?

 

And that other family would have kept the Bills from moving? 

 

I could not tell you how much the family is worth. I can tell you they have at least 3 homes and a full time staff for a yacht on the east coast. I would guess worth much less than Terry, but was absolutely a business partner in the venture, not an employee. He would not have purchased this Bills because he most likely does not have a billion liquid. The joke was that he was working with Terry and always had the inside line in knowing the Bills were not going anywhere. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I think we found Tim Graham's new TBD burner account.

 

Lol - and i hate Tim Graham!  Ironic. 

[bbb]

5 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

I could "understand if it is tied to their downtown debt.  Sabres, not so much.'

 

I agree.  That number makes no sense!