Star Lotulelei takes a pay cut

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm just interested to see what else they do now.

 

Asking a player to take a salary cut is always a motivational risk.  But IMO the Bills had a problem in trying to negotiate contracts with other part-time, rotational DLmen and that problem was called "Star's Contract".  Anyone they try to sign looks over there and says "Ah.....HIM.  Paid like HIM".

The renegotiation may bring Star's contract more in line with others the Bills may be trying to negotiate.

I usually don’t worry about motivation when players get a bump in guaranteed money.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, thebandit27 said:

I usually don’t worry about motivation when players get a bump in guaranteed money.

 

Say more, please, because the usual perception seems to be the opposite:

if your money is guaranteed, period, what's the motivation to train like a dawg all offseason and go hard in the games?

[thebandit27]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Say more, please, because the usual perception seems to be the opposite:

if your money is guaranteed, period, what's the motivation to train like a dawg all offseason and go hard in the games?

I think it’s more along the lines of the team is converting non-guaranteed money into guaranteed as an investment in the player for the upcoming season.

 

Vis a vis: we shall reward you now for what we expect will be another great season of service (disirregardlessly of whether he was actually great in the past).

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

I think it’s more along the lines of the team is converting non-guaranteed money into guaranteed as an investment in the player for the upcoming season.

 

Vis a vis: we shall reward you now for what we expect will be another great season of service (disirregardlessly of whether he was actually great in the past).

 

So your perception of the convo would be:

"we need to ask you to take a salary adjustment in order to better slot you in with your expected role next season, but we're so confident in the quality you'll bring that we're willing to guarantee what remains"?

[atlbillsfan1975]

23 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

I will respectfully disagree. I think when you look at where the team was at the time in terms of the Defense, what their needs were and what the market was at the time, it seemed on par to me. Also, he was not brought in to be Kyle Williams 2.0 whose biggest asset was rushing the passer from the inside. I'm not saying that Star is a premiere DT, I'm saying the Bills paid him according to the market value of what they needed at the time. He's done what he's been asked to do. If you think he should be doing something different, and I don't, then that's a coaching issue, not so much what they're paying him. IMHO

 

I'm not really sure what that means...?? Unless you're implying that the Bills seem to think he didn't perform well? If that's your assertion I would suggest you're wrong. I think they saw the ability to save some money, be able to move on next year if they choose to and yet give him some guarantees so he doesn't have to be concerned about not seeing the money in his contract. IMO, it was a means to helping out both sides, but not because they didn't think he played according to their expectations. 

 

It sounds like you disagree, so - that's where I'll leave it.

 

I am glad the Bills improved Starr’s contract to better match his play. 

[nucci]

17 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Say more, please, because the usual perception seems to be the opposite:

if your money is guaranteed, period, what's the motivation to train like a dawg all offseason and go hard in the games?

but just guaranteed for this coming season...he's now playing for his next contract

[GG]

41 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Why. Would. You. Cut. Murphy.

 

He makes an average of $7M, which is peanuts for a DE, and he was productive last year.

 

Don't cut good players just because.

 

You don't cut him just because.  But you use the Star deal as leverage to redo his contract.  He actually will make $8.25 million this year, and there's a $1 mil roster bonus decision coming in March.   If Beane was smart, that payment is due a few days after the league season opens.  For comparison, Murphy's 2019 bonus was due on March 17, 4 days after FA began.

 

Also, if Bills are able to snag a prime DE in first week of FA for $20 mil AAV, there's logic to dump Murphy and bring Shaq back at $8 mm AAV.

[Aussie Joe]

2 minutes ago, nucci said:

but just guaranteed for this coming season...he's now playing for his next contract

I got a feeling that his next contract is going to be on another team in 2021...

Hope that does motivate him to keep playing hard this year..

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Richie lost his mind in part due to the fact that lesser guards were signing big contracts after he had just taken an incredibly ill-advised pay cut.

There won't be any DT of lesser quality than Star getting paid close to what he still is.

 

Cause and effect mixed, here.

 

Ritchie had already lost his mind - he has admitted he was showing up to meetings high and was out of shape the previous year.  That's the cause.

He was asked to take a pay cut accordingly.   That's the effect.

 

(Doubt similar dynamic at play with Star)

[Royale with Cheese]

44 minutes ago, teef said:

i think you two need to have a drink and see where it goes.

I won’t be able until next week.  I’m sick.

I don’t think it’s the flu but I still have a decent fever.

[GunnerBill]

46 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

I will respectfully disagree. I think when you look at where the team was at the time in terms of the Defense, what their needs were and what the market was at the time, it seemed on par to me. Also, he was not brought in to be Kyle Williams 2.0 whose biggest asset was rushing the passer from the inside. I'm not saying that Star is a premiere DT, I'm saying the Bills paid him according to the market value of what they needed at the time. He's done what he's been asked to do. If you think he should be doing something different, and I don't, then that's a coaching issue, not so much what they're paying him. IMHO

 

I know what he was brought in to do. He just hasn't done it well enough to justify the $$S invested in my opinion. He isn't a bad player. But he is an overpaid one.

[nucci]

11 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

I got a feeling that his next contract is going to be on another team in 2021...

Hope that does motivate him to keep playing hard this year..

I concur...they guaranteed him a job this year and now can move on without big cap hit

[John from Riverside]

Jeez now that star has redone the contract what will we complain about this offseason

[teef]

9 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I won’t be able until next week.  I’m sick.

I don’t think it’s the flu but I still have a decent fever.

it's the flu.

[thebandit27]

31 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So your perception of the convo would be:

"we need to ask you to take a salary adjustment in order to better slot you in with your expected role next season, but we're so confident in the quality you'll bring that we're willing to guarantee what remains"?

More along the lines of—we plan to reduce your snaps this year, so we’re asking you to take a salary adjustment. In exchange, we’ll bump your guaranteed money up significantly. We’re doing this because we don’t want to let you go or have you be unhappy.

22 minutes ago, GG said:

 

You don't cut him just because.  But you use the Star deal as leverage to redo his contract.  He actually will make $8.25 million this year, and there's a $1 mil roster bonus decision coming in March.   If Beane was smart, that payment is due a few days after the league season opens.  For comparison, Murphy's 2019 bonus was due on March 17, 4 days after FA began.

 

Also, if Bills are able to snag a prime DE in first week of FA for $20 mil AAV, there's logic to dump Murphy and bring Shaq back at $8 mm AAV.

I highly doubt that Shaq takes 8.

 

And as I said, Murphy is performing right in line with what you expect from a DE making $7M AAV.

 

Yes, you could ask him to take a reduction, but he’s already being paid as a rotational guy.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I won’t be able until next week.  I’m sick.

I don’t think it’s the flu but I still have a decent fever.

 

Is there such a thing as an indecent fever?

[GG]

9 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

I highly doubt that Shaq takes 8.

 

And as I said, Murphy is performing right in line with what you expect from a DE making $7M AAV.

 

Yes, you could ask him to take a reduction, but he’s already being paid as a rotational guy.

 

Spotrac estimates Shaq's AAV to be $7.7 million.   Murphy will count over $9 million against the cap, and is slated to make over $8 million in cash.  Those are all above his contribution levels, just like Star.   His dead cap is only $1.75 million.  Bills can easily replace Murphy's contributions at a much lower cost.

[Niagara Dude]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

Why. Would. You. Cut. Murphy.

 

He makes an average of $7M, which is peanuts for a DE, and he was productive last year.

 

Don't cut good players just because.

Murphy has cap number of close to 10 miil,  i think the Bills can improve 

[thebandit27]

1 minute ago, Niagara Dude said:

Murphy has cap number of close to 10 miil,  i think the Bills can improve 

Yes, they can improve—why cut Murphy?

[Niagara Dude]

24 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

More along the lines of—we plan to reduce your snaps this year, so we’re asking you to take a salary adjustment. In exchange, we’ll bump your guaranteed money up significantly. We’re doing this because we don’t want to let you go or have you be unhappy.

I highly doubt that Shaq takes 8.

 

And as I said, Murphy is performing right in line with what you expect from a DE making $7M AAV.

 

Yes, you could ask him to take a reduction, but he’s already being paid as a rotational guy.

We need to find someone better than Murphy,  add some money onto the 8 miilion you save from cutting Murphy and upgrade the position.  Murphy is loser,  

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

Yes, they can improve—why cut Murphy?

To save 8 million,  add another 8 and get yourself and DE who can get us more sacks

[BillsFan4]

11 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

They are very young at many of the most key positions - QB, MLB, LT, CB1, RB1. Will likely add WR1 this year. 

Exactly.

 

McDermott likes to have a veteran in every meeting room. That’s not a bad thing, even if it raises some stupid “average age of the team” number some (of the more negative) fans like to obsess about.

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

We need to find someone better than Murphy,  add some money onto the 8 miilion you save from cutting Murphy and upgrade the position.  Murphy is loser,  

To save 8 million,  add another 8 and get yourself and DE who can get us more sacks

Your reasoning is that “he’s a loser”? That’s stupid.

 

Look at production across the league for players making $7M AAV and tell me that he’s not right where he should be...then explain to me why it makes sense to try to recoup cap space you don’t need by cutting a productive player at a position where you have only 2 experienced players under contract.

 

C’mon...I’m not asking for much. Just think.

[Niagara Dude]

4 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Yes, they can improve—why cut Murphy?

To save 8 million,  add another 8 and get yourself and DE who can get us more sacks

 

Robert Quinn /  Chris Jones  to name a few

[thebandit27]

Just now, Niagara Dude said:

To save 8 million,  add another 8 and get yourself and DE who can get us more sacks

 

Robert Quinn /  Chris Jones  to name a few

You want to sign Chris Jones to play EDGE in McDermott’s scheme? 
 

Are you sure you watch the NFL?

[GG]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

Your reasoning is that “he’s a loser”? That’s stupid.

 

Look at production across the league for players making $7M AAV and tell me that he’s not right where he should be...then explain to me why it makes sense to try to recoup cap space you don’t need by cutting a productive player at a position where you have only 2 experienced players under contract.

 

C’mon...I’m not asking for much. Just think.

 

The AAV goes out the window in the last year of the contract.   Murphy is not $7 million AAV, but almost $10 million in 2020.  

 

I don't advocate cutting him outright at this moment.  But, he's be a prime cut candidate three days into FA.

[thebandit27]

6 minutes ago, GG said:

 

The AAV goes out the window in the last year of the contract.   Murphy is not $7 million AAV, but almost $10 million in 2020.  

 

I don't advocate cutting him outright at this moment.  But, he's be a prime cut candidate three days into FA.

For what reason? Why don’t we want multiple good players at the same position? Do we really believe that this team needs even more cap space at the expense of keeping a good rotational guy?

 

I mean, suppose if the money is 1:1 with him and Shaq, you could at least make an argument, but Shaq will probably command a pile of guaranteed money and a longer-term commitment. If you’re already going after an upgrade at LDE, it doesn’t make sense to tie yourself to Shaq too.

[Royale with Cheese]

37 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Is there such a thing as an indecent fever?

 Like 100 is meh. Once you eclipse 101...that’s decent.

[thebandit27]

4 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 Like 100 is meh. Once you eclipse 101...that’s decent.

100.4 is what the cool kids are saying these days

[TheBeaneBandit]

4 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

For what reason? Why don’t we want multiple good players at the same position? Do we really believe that this team needs even more cap space at the expense of keeping a good rotational guy?

 

I mean, suppose if the money is 1:1 with him and Shaq, you could at least make an argument, but Shaq will probably command a pile of guaranteed money and a longer-term commitment. If you’re already going after an upgrade at LDE, it doesn’t make sense to tie yourself to Shaq too.

Actually, they played Shaq mostly on the right side last year, which was more natural for him. You could bring him back knowing Jerry is prob in his final year and draft a young buck.

[GG]

5 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

For what reason? Why don’t we want multiple good players at the same position? Do we really believe that this team needs even more cap space at the expense of keeping a good rotational guy?

 

I mean, suppose if the money is 1:1 with him and Shaq, you could at least make an argument, but Shaq will probably command a pile of guaranteed money and a longer-term commitment. If you’re already going after an upgrade at LDE, it doesn’t make sense to tie yourself to Shaq too.

 

Thinking beyond this season and getting more production for your money.  

 

I don't care about guarantees on long term deals as much as production in return for the guarantee.  I'd rather have Bills swing for the fences with Yannick or equal player if he's somehow available in first week of FA.  If not, then you look at second tier, like Shaq who you can sign for 3-4 years at under $8 AAV, and prioritize DE in the draft.    

 

Murphy sticks out like a sore thumb on the equivalent $10 million one-year contract.   Would you rather have him or Gerald McCoy for one year at that price?

[thebandit27]

4 minutes ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

Actually, they played Shaq mostly on the right side last year, which was more natural for him. You could bring him back knowing Jerry is prob in his final year and draft a young buck.

Well, he played both, but as far as I can remember he played more on the left side than right.

 

Can’t find a reliable reference for snap counts per side...only total.

2 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Thinking beyond this season and getting more production for your money.  

 

I don't care about guarantees on long term deals as much as production in return for the guarantee.  I'd rather have Bills swing for the fences with Yannick or equal player if he's somehow available in first week of FA.  If not, then you look at second tier, like Shaq who you can sign for 3-4 years at under $8 AAV, and prioritize DE in the draft.    

 

Murphy sticks out like a sore thumb on the equivalent $10 million one-year contract.   Would you rather have him or Gerald McCoy for one year at that price?

The last question is really important...my answer is “both, because they can afford it”.

[GG]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

The last question is really important...my answer is “both, because they can afford it”.

 

But that realistically isn't an option, because there's no way Beane leaves himself exposed to having two DEs falling off contracts after the 2020 season, and the rising stars due for extensions.  

 

To me the ideal situation is to sign 1) FA stud or 2) sign 2nd tier DE.  In either situation, you evaluate Murphy's slot because he doesn't produce for his cap hit, and Bills really do need to start addressing long term roster management this year.   The high cap number is a near-term illusion.

[Niagara Dude]

34 minutes ago, GG said:

 

The AAV goes out the window in the last year of the contract.   Murphy is not $7 million AAV, but almost $10 million in 2020.  

 

I don't advocate cutting him outright at this moment.  But, he's be a prime cut candidate three days into FA.

Are you his agent?  the guy had 3 sacks in 15 games,  we can do much better than that.  

15 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Thinking beyond this season and getting more production for your money.  

 

I don't care about guarantees on long term deals as much as production in return for the guarantee.  I'd rather have Bills swing for the fences with Yannick or equal player if he's somehow available in first week of FA.  If not, then you look at second tier, like Shaq who you can sign for 3-4 years at under $8 AAV, and prioritize DE in the draft.    

 

Murphy sticks out like a sore thumb on the equivalent $10 million one-year contract.   Would you rather have him or Gerald McCoy for one year at that price?

Not sure why people think around 10 mill is about right, we can do better and to beat winning teams the Bills need more play makers.  Murphy is scrub and is not good enough if you want to make the playoffs and win games

[GG]

13 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

Are you his agent?  the guy had 3 sacks in 15 games,  we can do much better than that.  

Not sure why people think around 10 mill is about right, we can do better and to beat winning teams the Bills need more play makers.  Murphy is scrub and is not good enough if you want to make the playoffs and win games

 

It would help if you can follow a discussion.   All references to Murphy's dollars are related to his scheduled cash payment and cap hit in 2020, as per his signed contract with the Buffalo Bills.  

[BADOLBILZ]

19 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Thinking beyond this season and getting more production for your money.  

 

I don't care about guarantees on long term deals as much as production in return for the guarantee.  I'd rather have Bills swing for the fences with Yannick or equal player if he's somehow available in first week of FA.  If not, then you look at second tier, like Shaq who you can sign for 3-4 years at under $8 AAV, and prioritize DE in the draft.    

 

Murphy sticks out like a sore thumb on the equivalent $10 million one-year contract.   Would you rather have him or Gerald McCoy for one year at that price?

 

 

Over 17 games Murphy produced 7 sacks 1 INT 2 FF and 2 FR..........he's a long defender who has a knack for getting his hands on the football and he just turned 29 in December in a league where pass rushers are getting paid well into their 30's so he's probably very motivated to have a great season and get another contract.

 

The money they saved guaranteeing Star his pay for 2020 is a pittance but it will offset any roster bonuses Murphy will earn this offseason.

 

And then if they get to August and Murphy is looking like the 6th best DE they can cut him(or possibly trade him) and save $6.5M in cap space.  

 

Makes zero sense to cut him now. 

[jwhit34]

Good move to reduce Star's #. As many have said, fair for both sides. 

 

They have stated multiple times that they want to bring as much of the team back as possible. With this restructure, I wonder if the next one could be Trent Murphy. 2020 is the last year of his deal, he has a cash # of $8.025 million, a cap hit of $9.775 million and a dead cap # of $1.75 million, which means they save $ 8 million if they release him. Maybe they go to him and give an option to extend 1-2 years to bring his number down to the $5-6 million range and say the alternative is they release him. 

 

My thinking is Murphy at $5.5 million is about fair value, if he doesn't want to do that then they release and save $8 million and deploy that elsewhere. 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, nucci said:

but just guaranteed for this coming season...he's now playing for his next contract

 

 

He's 31 and has been in decline for many years...........don't see NT types(read: DT1T who doesn't make tackles) playing into their mid 30's anymore.........it's not like pass rushers........this is the end of the road for him in the NFL.........his next contract will be coaching at a HS in Utah.   

[GG]

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Over 17 games Murphy produced 7 sacks 1 INT 2 FF and 2 FR..........he's a long defender who has a knack for getting his hands on the football and he just turned 29 in December in a league where pass rushers are getting paid well into their 30's so he's probably very motivated to have a great season and get another contract.

 

The money they saved guaranteeing Star his pay for 2020 is a pittance but it will offset any roster bonuses Murphy will earn this offseason.

 

And then if they get to August and Murphy is looking like the 6th best DE they can cut him(or possibly trade him) and save $6.5M in cap space.  

 

Makes zero sense to cut him now. 

 

Are you responding to me as if I'm advocating cutting him immediately?

 

[Reed83HOF]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

Your reasoning is that “he’s a loser”? That’s stupid.

 

Look at production across the league for players making $7M AAV and tell me that he’s not right where he should be...then explain to me why it makes sense to try to recoup cap space you don’t need by cutting a productive player at a position where you have only 2 experienced players under contract.

 

C’mon...I’m not asking for much. Just think.

 

You only move on if you get an upgrade, which would be a big time UFA signing. If you can't get the UFA, keep the band together for another season - there is no need to create additional holes.

 

Even with the Star pay cut, who we overpaid to begin with; not sure why we are looking to save the against the cap this year since we are seemingly fine. The exceptions to that would be: we are splurging in both UFA and beginning to resign our own this year or setting ourselves up next year to limit the dead cap going into 2021, when we really will have to pay a lot of players.  

[BillsVet]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Yeah, offense bad in 2018 when they didn't put any resources into it.  News flash, though. That's what happens in rebuilds, and especially rebuilds when the previous regime left you in very bad shape cap-wise. You suck for a couple of years.

 

"How many times does Mahomes have to carve up a top defense for people to see offense is what sets winners apart from pretenders," you ask? Great question. Here's another, with just as much logical sense. How many terrific oranges do you have to eat before you realize that no other kind of fruit is worth eating? I mean, you may have asked the world's dumbest question there. I guess that's an achievement.

 

I really enjoy the back and forth with fans who cite no statistics or any evidence to back up their opinion.  All emotion, no substance.  

 

From weeks 1-9, the 2018 Bills scored 96 points.  Total.  Had that pace continued they were pushing the worst offenses since the passing game opened up in 1978.  

 

In year 3 of the rebuild you cite they were in the bottom half of the league and often bottom quarter in offensive performance.  Yet, as I've long said, rebuilds in the modern NFL can be done quickly and efficiently.  Buffalo hasn't done that.  T 

 

I get that many fans are emotional, will absolutely not criticize this team, and turn their anger onto anyone who does.  It's been going on here ever since I joined and likely before that.

 

Unfortunately, emotions don't win prizes and neither does being a .500 team after 3 full seasons of rebuilding.  

 

Your non-sequitur about oranges was weak.  Try again Hondo.