The Rooney Rule (still) isn’t working?

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

 

 

those were the days when you could make instant millions with a tshirt like this....

 

 

You would quote Archie Bunker... ?

[row_33]

7 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

You would quote Archie Bunker... ?

 

 

that's a great show in reruns on WPIX on Saturdays, best seen now as who was the bigger clown between Mike and Archibald

 

[JaCrispy]

1 hour ago, buffalobillswin said:

Seriously dude be more diverse in your everyday life. Make friends with some Tyrones and Joakims. Your questions will answer themselves. 

But why? Are the Nyree’s and Leeroy’s in my life not good enough for you?

 

Your post indicates that I don’t know enough black people in my life to have a proper understanding...which seems rather entertaining considering my family is black...

 

I asked that simple question because it only required a simple answer...and that answer is that not all black people are oppressed just because they are black and not all white people are oppressors just because they are white...and in many cases “oppression” can also be a state of mind...

 

I am black and had very little while growing up... but I was never oppressed...there was no one keeping back...it was through hard work (sometimes working 3 jobs to get myself through college) that now I live the American dream in the greatest land on the face of the earth.

 

I loath discrimination against ALL people, not just minorities...and I will defend any group of people that I see it happening to- including white people...so if people have to discriminate against another group to create “equality” that is not equality to me...2 wrongs don’t make a right...it’s not something you can manufacture or make people do- because that leads to tyranny...

 

That is why education is the best way to me...it has worked in the past and I believe it will continue to work in the future...aaa sand you don’t build resentment with other groups of people...?

Edited January 9, 2020 by JaCrispy

[whatdrought]

4 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

But why? Are the Nyree’s and Leeroy’s in my life not good enough for you?

 

Your post indicates that I don’t know enough black people in my life to have a proper understanding...which seems rather entertaining considering my family is black...

 

I asked that simple question because it only required a simple answer...and that answer is that not all black people are oppressed just because they are black and not all white people are oppressors just because they are white...and in many cases “oppression” can also be a state of mind...

 

I am black and had very little while growing up... but I was never oppressed...there was no one keeping back...it was through hard work (sometimes working 3 jobs to get myself through college) that now I live the American dream in the greatest land on the face of the earth.

 

I loath discrimination against ALL people, not just minorities...and I will defend any group of people that I see it happening to- including white people...so if people have to discriminate against another group to create “equality” that is not equality to me...2 wrongs don’t make a right...it’s not something you can manufacture or make people do- because that leads to tyranny...

 

That is why education is the best way to me...it has worked in the past and I believe it will continue to work in the future...?

 

Good stuff. 

[SDS]

3 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

But why? Are the Nyree’s and Leeroy’s in my life not good enough for you?

 

Your post indicates that I don’t know enough black people in my life to have a proper understanding...which seems rather entertaining considering my family is black...

 

I asked that simple question because it only required a simple answer...and that answer is that not all black people are oppressed just because they are black and not all white people are oppressors just because they are white...and in many cases “oppression” can also be a state of mind...

 

I am black and had very little while growing up... but I was never oppressed...there was no one keeping back...it was through hard work (sometimes working 3 jobs to get myself through college) that now I live the American dream in the greatest land on the face of the earth.

 

I loath discrimination against ALL people, not just minorities...and I will defend any group of people that I see it happening to- including white people...so if people have to discriminate against another group to create “equality” that is not equality to me...2 wrongs don’t make a right...it’s not something you can manufacture or make people do- because that leads to tyranny...

 

That is why education is the best way to me...it has worked in the past and I believe it will continue to work in the future...?

 

But it is very difficult to make observations on the individual level. Statistically, the numbers don't lie though. The longitudinal study of millions of white/black people presented in that NYT article is sobering and depressing as *****. I hope you have a chance to look through it. Make sure you let it load long enough to see the animated graphics. It's a fabulous visual. I'm guessing the data presented is counter-intuitive to most people on the subject (and which you hinted at).

[SDS]

5 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

Good stuff. 

 

Why? Is it because you get to go home with a tidy anecdote in your pocket that reinforces a world view that by every societal measure - doesn't actually exist? @JaCrispy can have his personal experience without it being reflective of society at large.

[Jauronimo]

1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

So can people in this wonderful new culture, can people identify as any race they want to?  I always wanted to be Polynesian, (even though it really isnt a race) so I am going to start identifying myself as Polynesian

Of all the Chick Fil A dipping sauces you identify as Polynesian? 

[RoyBatty is alive]

Just now, Jauronimo said:

Of all the Chick Fil A dipping sauces you identify as Polynesian? 

 

Better than identifying as a Sweet & Spicy Sriracha. 

[whatdrought]

14 minutes ago, SDS said:

 

Why? Is it because you get to go home with a tidy anecdote in your pocket that reinforces a world view that by every societal measure - doesn't actually exist? @JaCrispy can have his personal experience without it being reflective of society at large.

 

No, it's because @JaCrispy slapped down an ignorant idiot who came into a civil conversation and starting spouting racist drivel, discrediting peoples opinions based on their skin color without ever engaging an idea with his own mind or intellect. That kind of ***** pisses me off. You want to have a wider conversation that's fine, and that article is super interesting and I am working through it (though hardly a sociologist am I) in small bites, but never once in this thread did I say a damn thing about how the disparity doesn't exist. If you've read the thread you've seen that I've been completely civil and sought to keep this thread an open conversation about this issue without it turning into a racial cluster you know what - up until that other guy rolls in here and can't make it through a single sentence without being racist. 

 

As for the "tidy anecdote" that you've just written @JaCrispy's life story off as, it's good stuff because it proves the reality that while we can look at the statistics and articles like you posted- we cannot find a way forward on the macro. It has to be on the micro. We can't say the whole system is broken and white men are ruining america without specic examples of where that is true, or in his case, where it hasn't been true. Statistics can be very easily weaponized into a narrative that doesn't tell the whole picture, and doesn't provide solutions but so easily has people willing to spout off without actually engaging in conversation, as seen up thread. 

 

 

10 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

Better than identifying as a Sweet & Spicy Sriracha. 

 

That stuff is terrible. I'm more a buffalo and honey mustard guy myself.(though not together) 

Edited January 9, 2020 by whatdrought

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, JaCrispy said:

If a black kid comes from a home that brings in over $200,000 and is able to send him to a private school, does he have more privilege than a white kid growing up in the sticks, whose family can barely make ends meet?

 

serious question...

Flip your scenario around and see where that leads you. 

[SDS]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Flip your scenario around and see where that leads you. 

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Flip your scenario around and see where that leads you. 

 

I'm guessing that is upper middle class adult. Unfortunately, the data the times presented only looked at the extremes. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, SDS said:

People love coming in with the ‘privileged wealthy black vs poor white’ as if that doesn’t immediately illustrate the issue at hand.

[JaCrispy]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Flip your scenario around and see where that leads you. 

I stand by my longer post above, which lends some more insight into this...?

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

I stand by my longer post above, which lends some more insight into this...?

You do that.

[SDS]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

People love coming in with the ‘privileged wealthy black vs poor white’ as if that doesn’t immediately illustrate the issue at hand.

 

1 minute ago, JaCrispy said:

I stand by my longer post above, which lends some more insight into this...?

 

But this issue is like smoking cigarettes. Smoking causes cancer... we know this, but not everyone who smokes gets cancer. It's probabilistic causation vs. deterministic causation. As you alluded to, not every black person experiences life the same way... but there is a damn good chance there will be more obstacles in the way and smaller margins of error.

[SWATeam]

14 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

As for the "tidy anecdote" that you've just written @JaCrispy's life story off as, it's good stuff because it proves the reality that while we can look at the statistics and articles like you posted- we cannot find a way forward on the macro. It has to be on the micro. We can't say the whole system is broken and white men are ruining america without specic examples of where that is true, or in his case, where it hasn't been true. Statistics can be very easily weaponized into a narrative that doesn't tell the whole picture, and doesn't provide solutions but so easily has people willing to spout off without actually engaging in conversation, as seen up thread. 

 

 

I'd say that the individual anecdote is much more easily and often weaponized.  The "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" examples have been in the political handbook for years. 

[HOUSE]

Nonsense, works fine...

 

 

 

[Coach Tuesday]

5 minutes ago, SDS said:

 

 

But this issue is like smoking cigarettes. Smoking causes cancer... we know this, but not everyone who smokes gets cancer. It's probabilistic causation vs. deterministic causation. As you alluded to, not every black person experiences life the same way... but there is a damn good chance there will be more obstacles in the way and smaller margins of error.

 

I can't believe that's even debatable.

[whatdrought]

Just now, SWATeam said:

I'd say that the individual anecdote is much more easily and often weaponized.  The "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" examples have been in the political handbook for years. 

 

For sure, and I'm not saying either extreme is correct. I'm saying that unless those of us on this thread shape society at large (and I certainly hope nobody who spends time on this board is shaping society. lol), we are stuck with the individual situations. That isn't to ignore the macro, but it's also seeking to find solutions from the micro. As it has been with the rooney rule conversation and the % of minority coaches. Can we point to minority candidates who clearly are more deserving of a position than the non-minority who got passed over where there is no reason other than their race? If so, I assume we'd all group together and have righteous anger about that. But saying x% of coaches are minorities and it should be x% instead, loses the reality of the argument because how do we address it? Where do we find the injustice? Same thing when we discuss the larger socialite issues. Where are the specifics of these injustices that we can combat? That, I think, is where the conversation has to start. 

[Jauronimo]

2 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

I'd say that the individual anecdote is much more easily and often weaponized.  The "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" examples have been in the political handbook for years. 

Off topic, but my favorite "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" story in recent years is the one I keep hearing from old timers regarding millenials "whining" about how they can't afford houses. 

 

I never get tired of hearing about how a guy with a highschool education, working an unskilled labor position, at a time when you had minimal competition from women and minorities for jobs, before economic globalization, a few short years after the worlds' manufacturing capability outside the U.S. was reduced to rubble but before the emergence of cheap labor from China, and way before basic necessities like shelter were treated as the preferred safe haven asset class for investors here and abroad, was able to save their salary for three whole months while supporting a family of 7 to buy a house in the burbs.  

 

Its that damn avocado toast!

[SDS]

5 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

I can't believe that's even debatable.

 

Oh, it's disputed:

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/11/01/democrats-far-more-likely-than-republicans-to-see-discrimination-against-blacks-not-whites/

 

This poll is fascinating. Of special note, look at the party results for Evangelical Christian vs Blacks. lol

[whatdrought]

1 minute ago, Jauronimo said:

Off topic, but my favorite "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" story in recent years is the one I keep hearing from old timers regarding millenials "whining" about how they can't afford houses. 

 

I never get tired of hearing about how a guy with a highschool education, working an unskilled labor position, at a time when you had minimal competition from women and minorities for jobs, before economic globalization, a few short years after the worlds' manufacturing capability outside the U.S. was reduced to rubble but before the emergence of cheap labor from China, and way before basic necessities like shelter were treated as the preferred safe haven asset class for investors here and abroad, was able to save their salary for three whole months while supporting a family of 7 to buy a house in the burbs.  

 

Its that damn avocado toast!

 

What's the opposite of "Okay Boomer" for this post? ?

 

[Coach Tuesday]

5 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Off topic, but my favorite "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" story in recent years is the one I keep hearing from old timers regarding millenials "whining" about how they can't afford houses. 

 

I never get tired of hearing about how a guy with a highschool education, working an unskilled labor position, at a time when you had minimal competition from women and minorities for jobs, before economic globalization, a few short years after the worlds' manufacturing capability outside the U.S. was reduced to rubble but before the emergence of cheap labor from China, and way before basic necessities like shelter were treated as the preferred safe haven asset class for investors here and abroad, was able to save their salary for three whole months while supporting a family of 7 to buy a house in the burbs.  

 

Its that damn avocado toast!

 

Thank you for this.  The poor vs. rich argument, for years, has masked the REAL redistribution of wealth from young to old that has been going on for decades.  This country chose pensions over progress in the 60s and 70s and we're still reeling from it.  

[Augie]

24 minutes ago, SDS said:

 

 

But this issue is like smoking cigarettes. Smoking causes cancer... we know this, but not everyone who smokes gets cancer. It's probabilistic causation vs. deterministic causation. As you alluded to, not every black person experiences life the same way... but   there is a damn good chance there will be more obstacles in the way and smaller margins of error.

 

We can think we know what it’s like to be in someone else’s shoes, but you don’t know unless you’ve actually been there.

 

For the last several years I’ve gone to a park almost every day, weather permitting, to play tennis and hang out. People come and go, and over several hours 2-3 dozen people can pass through. I’m usually the only white guy there all day. These people come from all walks of life, nurses, teachers, old, young, male, female, from a retired Marine grunt in his 80’s to a recently retired Admiral in the Navy. Great group of people, we get along great, but there are some things I just can’t “get”. 

 

One day my best friend there (an electrician) sees a cop car go by, stops play and says “look, they changed the paint job on the cars”. I say what do you mean? It’s just a cop car. There’s all kinds of cop cars, state troopers, local county, sheriffs cars, etc. How is that paint job different? He thought it was HYSTERICAL! “HEY! Everybody, he doesn’t even notice when they change the paint job on the cop cars!!!” Huge laughs all around, and they were serious. They all saw it too. That was eye opening to me. 

[Gugny]

3 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

This has been a great thread....

 

I believe you see more of a change when the owners are younger

 

 

I agree with this.  A bunch of old, white, rich men running the show.  Completely out of touch with the players.  (We see this somewhere else) 

 

 Players may be rich now, but the vast majority of them were not prior to going pro.

 

It's going to take longer than people want it to, but progress will continue to be made.

 

In the first 88 years of the NFL's existence, there were seven black head coaches.

From 2003-present, there have been 14 black head coaches (I did not count interim hirings or Ron Rivera, as he's not black).

 

What I think needs some attention is the quick hook many black head coaches have gotten.  As I looked into this, I noticed that many have had 1-2 years before getting fired.

 

[reddogblitz]

4 minutes ago, Gugny said:

As I looked into this, I noticed that many have had 1-2 years before getting fired.

 

As was Rex.  As was Kitchens.  As was Schumur.  As was Pettine.  As was Marrone.  As was Dave Campo.  As was Raheem Morris.

 

Tomlin's been around a long time.  Dungy had a nice career as NFL HC.  I wonder why that is?

 

I'm not saying none of this exists, obviously it does, but were there any other reason these guys were fired besides race?  Did you check  their  won/loss records?  How many white coaches that were losers lasted longer than 2 years?

 

NFL stood for Not For Long before we had black coaches.

 

Not counting interim coaches makes me sad because we can't count Perry Fewell.

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, reddogblitz said:

 

As was Rex.  As was Kitchens.  As was Schumur.  As was Pettine.  As was Marrone.  As was Dave Campo.  As was Raheem Morris.

 

Tomlin's been around a long time.  Dungy had a nice career as NFL HC.  I wonder why that is?

 

I'm not saying none of this exists, obviously it does, but were there any other reason these guys were fired besides race?  Did you check  their  won/loss records?  How many white coaches that were losers lasted longer than 2 years?

 

NFL stood for Not For Long before we had black coaches.

 

Not counting interim coaches makes me sad because we can't count Perry Fewell.

 

There's far more to it than picking out a few black coaches who've had long tenures and a few white coaches who've been fired after 1-2 seasons.  Look at some accomplishments of some of those who've been canned after short tenures.  Look at the percentages.

 

And Perry Fewell, unfortunately, probably leads the league in going on interviews for jobs he had no chance for just to satisfy the Rooney Rule.  That's why I don't think this rule - or any rule - will ever be effective.

 

[reddogblitz]

10 minutes ago, Gugny said:

Look at some accomplishments of some of those who've been canned after short tenures. 

 

Like who for example?

 

The only 1 I can think of is Raheem Morris and he went back to being a DB coach which he presently is in Atlanta.

Edited January 9, 2020 by reddogblitz

[GoBills808]

10 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Like who for example?

Caldwell is an example. He spent four seasons as HC in Detroit and went to the playoffs twice, fired after accumulating a 36-28 record which was best of any Lions HC since the 50s. His replacement in Patricia has gone 9-22-1 since.

[reddogblitz]

31 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Caldwell is an example. He spent four seasons as HC in Detroit and went to the playoffs twice, fired after accumulating a 36-28 record which was best of any Lions HC since the 50s. His replacement in Patricia has gone 9-22-1 since.

 

Good point.  I think Caldwell is a good coach that gets a bad wrap.  Hiring Bill  Bellyache assistants is such a loser yet teams continue to do it.  Judge Joe is the next.

 

Here's an article that backs up Gug's point https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidberri/2018/01/02/black-head-coaches-in-the-nfl-are-much-more-likely-to-be-fired-with-a-winning-record/#15eb62071cb8

 

Meanwhile,

 

Marvin Lewis had a 16 year career in Cincinnati with .518 win %.

 

Herm lasted 5 years in New York with a 39–41 record.

 

The Broncos fired Mike Shanahan with 146-91 record.

 

Jerry Jones fired Jimmy Johnson with a 44-36 record.

 

There are a lot of factors at play here.  I have no idea what the answer is.

 

NFL - Not For Long

 

I thought when we had a SB between 2 black coaches we had crossed the chasm on this.  Guess not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2020 by reddogblitz

[wppete]

Damn this thread really went off the rails. ? 

[SWATeam]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

Off topic, but my favorite "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" story in recent years is the one I keep hearing from old timers regarding millenials "whining" about how they can't afford houses. 

 

I never get tired of hearing about how a guy with a highschool education, working an unskilled labor position, at a time when you had minimal competition from women and minorities for jobs, before economic globalization, a few short years after the worlds' manufacturing capability outside the U.S. was reduced to rubble but before the emergence of cheap labor from China, and way before basic necessities like shelter were treated as the preferred safe haven asset class for investors here and abroad, was able to save their salary for three whole months while supporting a family of 7 to buy a house in the burbs.  

 

Its that damn avocado toast!

 

People love insisting that they’ve worked hard for everything that they have while forgetting, or completely unaware of, any advantages along the way.

[reddogblitz]

2 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Off topic, but my favorite "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" story in recent years is the one I keep hearing from old timers regarding millenials "whining" about how they can't afford houses. 

 

I never get tired of hearing about how a guy with a highschool education, working an unskilled labor position, at a time when you had minimal competition from women and minorities for jobs, before economic globalization, a few short years after the worlds' manufacturing capability outside the U.S. was reduced to rubble but before the emergence of cheap labor from China, and way before basic necessities like shelter were treated as the preferred safe haven asset class for investors here and abroad, was able to save their salary for three whole months while supporting a family of 7 to buy a house in the burbs.  

 

Its that damn avocado toast!

 

If a  millennial would join the military and do food service or some other non combat role for 3 years they could buy a house with no money down.

 

I'm not a millennial, but that's what I did and it's still possible.

[Buffalo03]

The Rooney Rule is stupid anyway. Just because teams have to interview a minority candidate doesn't mean that they have to hire them. It's also not fair to the minority candidate basically getting a potential "fake" interview just to meet a requirement. I get why they do it but it's stupid

[row_33]

2 hours ago, HOUSE said:

Nonsense, works fine...

 

 

 

 

[Punching Bag]

6 hours ago, vincec said:

It's like musical chairs. No one wants to be left with some leftover that no one wanted when the music stops...

 

No otherwise you are stuck being head coach of Browns.

[whatdrought]

4 hours ago, wppete said:

Damn this thread really went off the rails. ? 

 

I think it was always bound for some friction, but that all things being equal did a good job of creating discussion without being over the top political or argumentative! All in all, not bad for a TSW thread.

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Dungy explained his perspective tonight on PTI
 

for him Rooney rule was intended to force organizations to interview a breath of candidates and really look far and wide for candidates.

 

instead, owners, typically heading the search these days, rush to check a box and then rush to sign a guy without really seriously looking around.

 

not sure I 100% see that, but it’s his view....

 

 

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Dungy explained his perspective tonight on PTI
 

for him Rooney rule was intended to force organizations to interview a breath of candidates and really look far and wide for candidates.

 

instead, owners, typically heading the search these days, rush to check a box and then rush to sign a guy without really seriously looking around.

 

not sure I 100% see that, but it’s his view....

 

 

 

And he is right. That has been my point this whole thread. There are some good minority candidates out there still not getting serious looks because of the rush to check the box. It sure seems like rather than team sitting down and saying "okay we have to interview a minority candidate, who is the best minority candidate out there?" The teams are instead saying "Who do we have who is a minority coach on the current staff that we can interview to check that box?" 

[Gugny]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And he is right. That has been my point this whole thread. There are some good minority candidates out there still not getting serious looks because of the rush to check the box. It sure seems like rather than team sitting down and saying "okay we have to interview a minority candidate, who is the best minority candidate out there?" The teams are instead saying "Who do we have who is a minority coach on the current staff that we can interview to check that box?" 

 

Bingo.  I don't recall too many black interviewees going last before being declined.