The REAL reason Duke Didnt Catch The TD Pass

[GG]

Everyone is missing a great play by Conley to prevent Duke from fully extending his left arm, which led to the bounce of Duke's right hand.  Technically DPI, but would never be called.

 

If you look at the replays from the EZ and sideline, you see Conley's right arm planted firmly on Duke's thigh as he's going up.  I think that prevents Duke from making the catch with both hands.  It was after that, where Conley hooks the left arm to stop the bobbled catch.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, StHustle said:

Yeah lets compare an undrafted guy elevated from the practice squad in just his 5th start with the top WRs in the league. All Im saying is give a guy a chance to grow. He is just getting his feet wet against NFL level DBs. Its known that WR is a tough position to transition to the NFL level (Yes even from the CFL where Duke was the best in the league)

 

Yet that's exactly what you did.  See the irony here?  You said:

" If Duke had Russell Wilson as his QB, who doubts Duke doesnt have just as good or better numbers than DK?? Let's be real here. "

In plain English, you clearly compared Duke to DK Metcalf.

 

I think "hater" is a term you apply to folks who say Duke is an undrafted CFL WR elevated from the practice squad who is struggling at this point to get active on an NFL roster that is desperate for WR help.  He isn't fast enough, he doesn't run smooth enough routes, and now we see that while he could make contested catches against CFL DB he's not a sure bet against the NFL's 2nd best.

[GG]

5 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I think he just dropped the ball.... it's not that complicated.

 

I make a distinction between not making a great catch and dropping the ball.  Conley defended that pass very well to prevent Duke from getting both hands on the ball.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, GG said:

I make a distinction between not making a great catch and dropping the ball.  Conley defended that pass very well to prevent Duke from getting both hands on the ball.

 

Agree.  It's very good defense.  Very good WR make that catch anyway, but I don't think it's a drop.

[Steptide]

I think in his limited play time this season, Duke has more than earned a spot next season. Obviously we'll see how he does in pre season and training camp, but I think he'll only get better 

[CBennett]

Id like to see MORE of him this upcoming year. Id like to see him get REAL as in REGULAR roster guy type action before I make a call. I DO think in his limited appearances this year he earned to have more action.

[GG]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

It's absolutely a drop. The ball hit him in the hands.

 

That's where you are wrong.   The ball hit him in one hand, not two hands. 

 

Conley made a great play to prevent him from extending his left hand.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, Steptide said:

I think in his limited play time this season, Duke has more than earned a spot next season. Obviously we'll see how he does in pre season and training camp, but I think he'll only get better 

 

He's earned a shot.  Whether that turns into a spot, depends upon whether he makes improvements and who else we bring in.

[GG]

7 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Dude. Watch the play again. The ball hits him in the hands and he bobbles it at which point Conley grabs his left hand so he doesn't catch the bobble.

 

Sounds like you need to listen to your advice.

 

Who posted the screenshot above?  He doesn't bobble the ball.  He tips it with his right hand and can't extend the left, because Conley is holding his thigh down.   He is never really able to get his left hand on the ball.  By definition, that's not a bobble.

[TigerJ]

On 1/6/2020 at 10:45 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

There are two people on this board:

• Those who think Duke is a scrub because he played in the CFL.
• Those who see a guy who was going to be a first round pick before getting suspended who has upside and a skill set our other guys dont.

There is no in between.  There is no shifting anyone from one side to the other.  

 

Bottom line:  Duke bashers were wrong, they wont ever admit it, but they were because they said he would never make the roster, let alone start or contribute.  

 

That doesn't mean Duke is a lock for next years roster or is our future savior at WR.  It means, the kid has potential and he stuck around this long and made an impact at end of season for a reason.  I think he will be here competing again next year.  Whether or not he makes the team or where he is at on the depth chart I think will have a lot to do with what Beane does in both FA and Draft.

 

If Beane just drafts a guy, Duke is going to have a good shot to not only be on the team, but likely open up camp competing to start with the rookie.  If Beane both signs a guy like say AJ Green and also invests an early pick on a WR, then I think Duke is looking at competing for the 5th WR spot next year at best.  

 

 

People keep saying this, but they keep leaving out a key detail...he had not been in game shape at the combine after being cut from the team after the bar fight.  He was faster than his 4.73 time...he still isn't blazing fast, and of course no where near DK, but he was always fast enough to get open in the NFL and has proven that.  

I'm in between.

[GG]

24 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

@GG

 

That's the wrong angle to look at because it doesn't show Conley holding down Duke's left thigh before the ball gets there.  Look at the more clear shot from a few pages back.  Conley made a better defensive play than people give him credit for.  He prevented Duke from putting both hands on the ball.  There was a tip, not a bobble.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Dude. Watch the play again. The ball hits him in the hands and he bobbles it at which point Conley grabs his left hand so he doesn't catch the bobble.

it did... and besides if he’s going to be an NFL WR contested catches are his only path. 
 

I’m not sure why folks are defensive. It’s not as if he’s blamed for the loss. He should have caught the ball and I’m sure he would be the first to tell you that. He didn’t. Sometimes kickers miss, some times tacklers whiff. If he owns it and works to better good. If not, that’s fine to. WR are so poised to catch balls thrown to them, even if it means beating the player you’re up against. 
 

for anyone that thinks it is unreasonable to ask a wr to make contested catch, please see the weekly ‘you got mossed’ segment. 
 

I will continue beating the drum that you routinely see other teams top 3 WRs make catches you do not see the bills WRs make.

 

The exceptions in mind are some of the other duke catches, and maybe a grab Singletary made. 
 

There are 4 WRs on the bills with the catch radius of a dartboard. Smoke/beasley/McKenzie/Foster.

 

the last two should be replaced by two much better Guys that are one and two on the depth chart and push the other two down. Duke can fight for the last spot as a RZ 3rd down target. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[JoshAllin]

If only duke was activated the whole season, he makes that catch every time

[Dopey]

2 hours ago, GG said:

 

I make a distinction between not making a great catch and dropping the ball.  Conley defended that pass very well to prevent Duke from getting both hands on the ball.

Watch the video. Conley got his hand in there after Duke whiffed on the ball. He had both hands on the ball at first. Conley kept Duke from catching his own bobble. Either way Duke should have made the catch. Those types of plays are the only reason he was even on the team.

[billsfan1959]

7 minutes ago, GG said:

 

That's the wrong angle to look at because it doesn't show Conley holding down Duke's left thigh before the ball gets there.  Look at the more clear shot from a few pages back.  Conley made a better defensive play than people give him credit for.  He prevented Duke from putting both hands on the ball.  There was a tip, not a bobble.

Don’t look at screenshots. The video is in this thread. Watch it. That was a beautiful throw Williams failed to adjust properly on in his initial attempt to catch it. The DB did get his hand in there to prevent him from pulling the ball in as they were going down. However, Williams should have made that catch.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, TigerJ said:

I'm in between.

 

That's exactly where I am and where a lot of the posters I most respect for their football knowledge on this board are.

 

There are two kinds of people in this world: those who think there are two kinds of people, and everyone else. ?

[Dopey]

Way to mislead the Duke contingent. Others aren't falling for It though. There is a video clip that shows your picture was after Duke let the ball slip through his hands. He should have caught it. Your pic shows Conley defending Duke from catching his own bobble. Also, with 1 minute left in regulation, Duke dropped a perfect back shoulder pass where he got 2 hands on it. Booger mentioned it too. We would have gone from our 47yd line to the texans 33yd line. Instead of game planning for a td, we're now forced to get in fg range. He was being defended, but a perfectly placed ball was in both hands only to be dropped. These are exactly the plays Duke fans say he makes, all the time. He failed, big time. Someone here wrote, if he was active all season, he would have caught everything. He had 232 attempts in Canada, with 101 NOT completed. 101 not completed!! That is not catching everything. It's the opposite. He made a few catches vs Houston and the Jets, but it took 12 attempts vs the Jets to make 6 receptions and 10 vs Houston to make 4 receptions. This, plus the #s in Canada show one thing. Duke is consistently inconsistent. Maybe we should burn the Duke highlight videos and look at a video of his fails. Contrary to the experts here posting highlights, the coaching staff knew what they were doing in sitting him.

[Spiderweb]

On 1/6/2020 at 10:36 PM, StHustle said:

His left arm was hooked which forced an alligator arm attempt. There is NO QUESTION that he makes the catch if that didnt happen. In slow mo you can see he almost still made the grab. Great defense by the DB. Can we PLEASE put to bed the idea this was a drop???

 

 

On another note...why are you Duke haters so quick to label this guy as either a #5 or even not good enough to be in the league WHEN HE WAS A ROOKIE with very few games under his belt??

Why do top draft picks get the benefit of the doubt based on lack of experience when they are the ones supposed to be so much better than the undrafted guys? Seems undrafted guys are expected to kill it out the gate or they shouldnt be on the team. Duke has 5 NFL games under his belt. Lets compare his first 5 games to DK Metcalf who has a future HOF throwing to him and was the #2 guy on the roster:

 

DK - 

26 Targets
12 Receptions
2 TD
267 Yards

 

DuKe-

29 Targets
16 Receptions
1 TD
215 Yards

 

If Duke had Russell Wilson as his QB, who doubts Duke doesnt have just as good or better numbers than DK?? Let's be real here.

No we can't. Stop making excuses! I watched a replay of the play 210 or more time using NFL Game Pass. If a pro receiver gets both hands on the ball, it must get caught. Making a contested catch is what receivers must be able to do. There have been worse grabbing then that for sure.

[billsfan1959]

19 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That's exactly where I am and where a lot of the posters I most respect for their football knowledge on this board are.

 

There are two kinds of people in this world: those who think there are two kinds of people, and everyone else. ?

I’m one of those two kinds of people....?

[GG]

Just now, billsfan1959 said:

Don’t look at screenshots. The video is in this thread. Watch it. That was a beautiful throw Williams failed to adjust properly on in his initial attempt to catch it. The DB did get his hand in there to prevent him from pulling the ball in as they were going down. However, Williams should have made that catch.

 

2 minutes ago, Dopey said:

Watch the video. Conley got his hand in there after Duke whiffed on the ball. He had both hands on the ball at first. Conley kept Duke from catching his own bobble. Either way Duke should have made the catch. Those types of plays are the only reason he was even on the team.

 

I've watched the video in slow motion several times.  The ones to watch are from the sideline and endzone.  Watch Conley's actions as well.   He's the one who's preventing Duke from adjusting the left side of his body to get both hands on it.  

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, GG said:

 

I've watched the video in slow motion several times.  The ones to watch are from the sideline and endzone.  Watch Conley's actions as well.   He's the one who's preventing Duke from adjusting the left side of his body to get both hands on it.  

I’ve watched them all. I like Duke Williams and I hope he remains on the team, as I believe he could play an important role. However, IMO, that is a catch an NFL WR, particularly one whose strength is that exact type of catch, should make. We can agree to disagree and that is alright.

[Dopey]

36 minutes ago, GG said:

 

 

I've watched the video in slow motion several times.  The ones to watch are from the sideline and endzone.  Watch Conley's actions as well.   He's the one who's preventing Duke from adjusting the left side of his body to get both hands on it.  

Conley's defense and the op's picture come into play only after Duke misses on his initial attempt to catch a pass that was perfectly placed and should have been caught.

[Meatloaf63]

12 hours ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

The hand is not "in there" until well after the initial drop and Duke is already turned 90 degrees clockwise. At the time of the initial drop the defender's arm and hand are down by Duke's waist. Look at the set of four pictures again. 

Yes but receivers pop a ball up and catch it all the time, if the hand didn’t pull his arm back no doubt he brings it in, also very real doubt Brown  or Beasley make the jump to even get a hand in it...

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, GG said:

 

I make a distinction between not making a great catch and dropping the ball.  Conley defended that pass very well to prevent Duke from getting both hands on the ball.

 

 

The opportunity to catch the ball occurred before there was contact.  The ball was already gone by then.

[GG]

5 minutes ago, Dopey said:

Conley's defense and the op's picture come into play only after Duke misses on his initial attempt to catch a pass that was perfectly placed and should have been caught.

 

Ay caramba.

 

I don't mind arguing whether Duke should have made a better attempt to position the left side of his body for the catch, which he possibly could have.  But please don't argue that Conley's defense came into play only after Duke touched the ball.

 

Look at Conley's right arm in this shot.  He is preventing Duke from elevating his left side, WELL before the ball got there.  That's why he never got both hands on the ball.

 

 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

Just now, Meatloaf63 said:

Yes but receivers pop a ball up and catch it all the time, if the hand didn’t pull his arm back no doubt he brings it in, also very real doubt Brown  or Beasley make the jump to even get a hand in it...

Brown wouldn't have to, he wins with speed and get's separation. Brown and Beasley are totally different WRs than Duke. That's like saying I very really doubt Duke can make Gilmore & McCourty look like fools on the same play and beat them deep for a 53 yard TD like in week 16. The same Gilmore who hadn't given up a TD against him in the first 14 weeks. Not only do I doubt it, it's never happening. To say there's no doubt Duke catches it the second time is a but shortsighted, no one knows if he would've or wouldn't have.  

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

4 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Ay caramba.

 

I don't mind arguing whether Duke should have made a better attempt to position the left side of his body for the catch, which he possibly could have.  But please don't argue that Conley's defense came into play only after Duke touched the ball.

 

Look at Conley's right arm in this shot.  He is preventing Duke from elevating his left side, WELL before the ball got there.  That's why he never got both hands on the ball.

 

 

He's in the game to make those tough jump ball catches in the endzone. It has to be true, I was hearing it all over these boards when he wasn't playing that he should be for this very play right here. If that's why you're in the game then you HAVE to come down with it. He's bigger and stronger Conley is. 6' 3" 225  vs  6' 0" 190.

[Meatloaf63]

That wasn’t really a speed route and Brown doesn’t always get separation as the Ravens game proved. But in the the end you are right, the ball hit him square in the hands, Duke did everything right  running the route but in his biggest moment he failed to catch a very catchable ball. Now would he have been better if he was playing all season? Nobody knows. Will he be good enough to make this team next year? I would keep him over McKenzie and Foster, but I guess it depends on free agency and the draft, I honestly don’t know how old Duke is and if that’s a factor. Bottom line, sucks for everyone he didn’t perform when it was his chance to shine. Unfortunately this can be said about 10 other guys on this team for this game, and that’s why we are having this discussion....

7 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

He's in the game to make those tough jump ball catches in the endzone. It has to be true, I was hearing it all over these boards when he wasn't playing that he should be for this very play right here. If that's why you're in the game then you HAVE to come down with it. He's bigger and stronger Conley is. 6' 3" 225  vs  6' 0" 190.

No doubt these clips show he should have had it. Damn it sucks, but you can’t single Duke out, there isn’t a single other player in this team you could guarantee me makes that catch this game, everybody let us down...

[formerlyofCtown]

On 1/6/2020 at 10:36 PM, StHustle said:

His left arm was hooked which forced an alligator arm attempt. There is NO QUESTION that he makes the catch if that didnt happen. In slow mo you can see he almost still made the grab. Great defense by the DB. Can we PLEASE put to bed the idea this was a drop???

 

 

On another note...why are you Duke haters so quick to label this guy as either a #5 or even not good enough to be in the league WHEN HE WAS A ROOKIE with very few games under his belt??

Why do top draft picks get the benefit of the doubt based on lack of experience when they are the ones supposed to be so much better than the undrafted guys? Seems undrafted guys are expected to kill it out the gate or they shouldnt be on the team. Duke has 5 NFL games under his belt. Lets compare his first 5 games to DK Metcalf who has a future HOF throwing to him and was the #2 guy on the roster:

 

DK - 

26 Targets
12 Receptions
2 TD
267 Yards

 

DuKe-

29 Targets
16 Receptions
1 TD
215 Yards

 

If Duke had Russell Wilson as his QB, who doubts Duke doesnt have just as good or better numbers than DK?? Let's be real here.

looks like pass interferance to me.

[row_33]

On 1/6/2020 at 10:36 PM, StHustle said:

His left arm was hooked which forced an alligator arm attempt. There is NO QUESTION that he makes the catch if that didnt happen. In slow mo you can see he almost still made the grab. Great defense by the DB. Can we PLEASE put to bed the idea this was a drop???

 

 

On another note...why are you Duke haters so quick to label this guy as either a #5 or even not good enough to be in the league WHEN HE WAS A ROOKIE with very few games under his belt??

Why do top draft picks get the benefit of the doubt based on lack of experience when they are the ones supposed to be so much better than the undrafted guys? Seems undrafted guys are expected to kill it out the gate or they shouldnt be on the team. Duke has 5 NFL games under his belt. Lets compare his first 5 games to DK Metcalf who has a future HOF throwing to him and was the #2 guy on the roster:

 

DK - 

26 Targets
12 Receptions
2 TD
267 Yards

 

DuKe-

29 Targets
16 Receptions
1 TD
215 Yards

 

If Duke had Russell Wilson as his QB, who doubts Duke doesnt have just as good or better numbers than DK?? Let's be real here.

 

 

 

one top WR tells the story of calling his dad after a few games his rookie season

 

WR:  dad, they are HOLDING me out there, that's against the rules

 

DAD:  son, you better learn to work through that or join me Monday morning selling used cars.

 

 

 

 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

16 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

That wasn’t really a speed route and Brown doesn’t always get separation as the Ravens game proved. But in the the end you are right, the ball hit him square in the hands, Duke did everything right  running the route but in his biggest moment he failed to catch a very catchable ball. Now would he have been better if he was playing all season? Nobody knows. Will he be good enough to make this team next year? I would keep him over McKenzie and Foster, but I guess it depends on free agency and the draft, I honestly don’t know how old Duke is and if that’s a factor. Bottom line, sucks for everyone he didn’t perform when it was his chance to shine. Unfortunately this can be said about 10 other guys on this team for this game, and that’s why we are having this discussion....

No doubt these clips show he should have had it. Damn it sucks, but you can’t single Duke out, there isn’t a single other player in this team you could guarantee me makes that catch this game, everybody let us down...

Definitely not trying to single him out, but this play puts us 17-0 right before halftime. In the end there's several plays that if just one guy did his job and made his play we would've won the game. Hopefully this fuels Duke during the offseason, but Beane just mentioned today that this year's draft class is really WR strong.

Edited January 8, 2020 by LOVEMESOMEBILLS

[row_33]

just stay focused and don't get shot and don't shoot anyone and try not to crash your car or motorcycle or dog-sled in the offseason...

 

 

[Dopey]

31 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Ay caramba.

 

I don't mind arguing whether Duke should have made a better attempt to position the left side of his body for the catch, which he possibly could have.  But please don't argue that Conley's defense came into play only after Duke touched the ball.

 

Look at Conley's right arm in this shot.  He is preventing Duke from elevating his left side, WELL before the ball got there.  That's why he never got both hands on the ball.

 

 

He should have caught this contested pass. That's the only attribute he brings. No one mentions the critical drop with a minute left in regulation either.  Turn your video on to 1 minute left in regulation. Also the only time he was "open" all night was a 5 yd slant where the db was 8 yds off the los. For a guy " who's open when he's not", he sure wasn't. We went from " coaches are dumb not to put him in" to making excuses for his 2 critical drops. IMO We don't need a guy who MIGHT catch a contested pass cuz he struggles to get open.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

15 minutes ago, Dopey said:

He should have caught this contested pass. That's the only attribute he brings. No one mentions the critical drop with a minute left in regulation either.  Turn your video on to 1 minute left in regulation. Also the only time he was "open" all night was a 5 yd slant where the db was 8 yds off the los. For a guy " who's open when he's not", he sure wasn't. We went from " coaches are dumb not to put him in" to making excuses for his 2 critical drops. IMO We don't need a guy who MIGHT catch a contested pass cuz he struggles to get open.

 

Yahtzee!

 

[Mark Long Beach]

On 1/7/2020 at 5:57 AM, ILBillsfan said:

Wow nice vide this was brutal to watch that should of been caught

 

My first thought when watching this angle was "what a bullet!"  It's not an easy catch, but one you expect your NFL receivers to make.  But, they don't always.  Even the best of them.

 

But man,  what a throw!

[Irv]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2020 at 11:33 PM, TwistofFate said:

Duke made some great plays, but the Duke also dropped some clutch catches. 

 

I'm concerned that Duke is receiving the same off season "how-to-catch" training as Clank/Zay. 

[GG]

1 hour ago, Dopey said:

He should have caught this contested pass. That's the only attribute he brings. No one mentions the critical drop with a minute left in regulation either.  Turn your video on to 1 minute left in regulation. Also the only time he was "open" all night was a 5 yd slant where the db was 8 yds off the los. For a guy " who's open when he's not", he sure wasn't. We went from " coaches are dumb not to put him in" to making excuses for his 2 critical drops. IMO We don't need a guy who MIGHT catch a contested pass cuz he struggles to get open.

 

I'm not going to argue the pass at the end of regulation.  He got both hands on it, and should have held on.   But the pass at the half was a totally different situation, where the DB made a tremendous play.   He should have been flagged for DPI because the contact was early and affected Duke's motion.  But it didn't get called and was a great defensive play.  I'll gladly throw in Newton's laws of momentum in why it was a harder catch than people think.

 

I think people are confusing the play at the end where Duke had both hands on the ball with the other one, where he could only tip it with his right hand to bring it in.

 

[GaryPinC]

1 hour ago, GG said:

 

Ay caramba.

 

I don't mind arguing whether Duke should have made a better attempt to position the left side of his body for the catch, which he possibly could have.  But please don't argue that Conley's defense came into play only after Duke touched the ball.

 

Look at Conley's right arm in this shot.  He is preventing Duke from elevating his left side, WELL before the ball got there.  That's why he never got both hands on the ball.

 

 

I can't agree with you, I simply don't think Duke was tracking the ball well as it arrived.  Look how far apart his hands are, instead of being in a tighter basket.  He had enough height off the ground regardless of the arm bar.   He makes no attempt to bring his left hand over to his right and the ball squarely hit his right hand.  He had enough elevation, bringing his left over would have meant twisting his shoulders (dropping the left/raising the right) and I don't think the defender arm bar inhibits that.

[GoBills808]

46 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

I can't agree with you, I simply don't think Duke was tracking the ball well as it arrived.  Look how far apart his hands are, instead of being in a tighter basket.  He had enough height off the ground regardless of the arm bar.   He makes no attempt to bring his left hand over to his right and the ball squarely hit his right hand.  He had enough elevation, bringing his left over would have meant twisting his shoulders (dropping the left/raising the right) and I don't think the defender arm bar inhibits that.

That's not how you catch that pass anyway. He's reaching when he should be attacking the ball. He's trying to catch this ball underhanded when he should be going up and making a play over and through the DBs leverage.

[GaryPinC]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

That's not how you catch that pass anyway. He's reaching when he should be attacking the ball. He's trying to catch this ball underhanded when he should be going up and making a play over and through the DBs leverage.

I agree with ya, and another reason why I don't think he tracked it well.  Underhand allows the ball to come across your body more and give you an extra split second to react to the ball.