A Few Thoughts About the *Pats game, in no particular order

[keepthefaith]

Allen was horrible today.  With even just a bit of offensive production and fewer turnovers the Bills win this one.  A huge missed opportunity.  Huge. 

[Kelly the Dog]

5 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

The thing is, the running stuff is what makes him good, but it was also always the thing that was going to get him killed. He plays recklessly when running, and it was just a matter of time before a hit like today happened. It won’t be the last.

Yeah, you could say that. But it was an illegal hit to the head that knocks him out. That could happen to any QB anywhere on the field. I really don't think his health is hurt any more from his running than it would be if he never ran. Our pass blocking is suspect. Last year it was abysmal. QBs seem to get hurt when their legs are planted weird. He's bigger than half the defenders he's running against. He's country strong and athletic. He was hurt not because he ran but because the defender went for his head. That could have happened in the pocket, too, if he decided not to run. Plus it's his value ad. 

I worry more about ball security than him getting hurt. 

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Yeah, you could say that. But it was an illegal hit to the head that knocks him out. That could happen to any QB anywhere on the field. I really don't think his health is hurt any more from his running than it would be if he never ran. Our pass blocking is suspect. Last year it was abysmal. QBs seem to get hurt when their legs are planted weird. He's bigger than half the defenders he's running against. He's country strong and athletic. He was hurt not because he ran but because the defender went for his head. That could have happened in the pocket, too, if he decided not to run. Plus it's his value ad. 

I worry more about ball security than him getting hurt. 

It was illegal, but i really don’t think it was deliberate, and it’s the sort of hit rbs get all of the time. Basically, it was a garden variety hit that the chris ivorys of the world get all of the time. He plays a certain way at present that isn’t sustainable, but he’s been lucky up until today so fans don’t really think about it.

[iinii]

52 minutes ago, Virgil said:

You can’t slide while you are being wrapped up by another defender.  
 

 

So my point being is he should have slid sooner and live to fight another day. Josh is a big dude and one guy doesn’t bring him down unless he is a really big guy. When I was coming up they called it gang tackling. On the very next play there are three helmets meeting Gore’s. Also if you look at your verb conjugation; being wrapped up and wrapped up are very different. Wrapped up is the ball carrier is done, stood up, stopped, play over. That play wasn’t over. 

[Boatdrinks]

9 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

It was illegal, but i really don’t think it was deliberate, and it’s the sort of hit rbs get all of the time. Basically, it was a garden variety hit that the chris ivorys of the world get all of the time. He plays a certain way at present that isn’t sustainable, but he’s been lucky up until today so fans don’t really think about it.

Oh it was absolutely deliberate if you see the front angle. 100% scummy hit from a scummy player on the scummiest team that ever scummed. That’s about it. 

[Kelly the Dog]

12 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

It was illegal, but i really don’t think it was deliberate, and it’s the sort of hit rbs get all of the time. Basically, it was a garden variety hit that the chris ivorys of the world get all of the time. He plays a certain way at present that isn’t sustainable, but he’s been lucky up until today so fans don’t really think about it.

On replay I definitely think it was deliberate. It's tough if not impossible to know of course. The Patriots do not get the benefit of the doubt. 

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Boatdrinks said:

Oh it was absolutely deliberate if you see the front angle. 100% scummy hit from a scummy player on the scummiest team that ever scummed. That’s about it. 

I actually kinda disagree even though i don’t want too. Regardless, guys like chris ivory get a hit like that every game, and if allen is going to choose to play like that, those are the predictable consequences.

[Coach Tuesday]

12 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

It was illegal, but i really don’t think it was deliberate, and it’s the sort of hit rbs get all of the time. Basically, it was a garden variety hit that the chris ivorys of the world get all of the time. He plays a certain way at present that isn’t sustainable, but he’s been lucky up until today so fans don’t really think about it.

He’s also a serial fumbler.

 

The entire offense right now is built around his legs and it’s a recipe for trouble.  Either way it’s just not sustainable.

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Kelly the Dog said:

On replay I definitely think it was deliberate. It's tough if not impossible to know of course. The Patriots do not get the benefit of the doubt. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/mattdolloff/status/1178427799947878405

 

just disagree with you, dog.

Edited September 30, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Maine-iac]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/mattdolloff/status/1178427799947878405

Looks like the Pats player took it in the ear hole as much as Allen took the shoulder in the head.

[dave mcbride]

Just now, Maine-iac said:

Looks like the Pats player took it in the ear hole as much as Allen took the shoulder in the head.

Yup. Bills fans don’t seem to want to consider that, though ...

Edited September 30, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Boatdrinks]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I actually kinda disagree even though i don’t want too. Regardless, guys like chris ivory get a hit like that every game, and if allen is going to choose to play like that, those are the predictable consequences.

Not really. Ivory and guys like that are much lower to the ground so lots of incidental stuff. This guy led with his helmet at a QB that was more upright. All about intent here. 

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/mattdolloff/status/1178427799947878405

The other angle above in this thread I thought showed he saw where Josh was and lowered his head on purpose. That was a bad angle imo. 

[Greybeard]

1 minute ago, Maine-iac said:

Looks like the Pats player took it in the ear hole as much as Allen took the shoulder in the head.

    Shoulder to the head?  You better look again.  It was helmet to helmet.

[Boatdrinks]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

Yup. Bills fans don’t seem to want to consider that, though ...

Ones the hitter and the other is the hitee

Just now, Greybeard said:

    Shoulder to the head?  You better look again.  It was helmet to helmet.

Yep. Need to see the correct angle then it’s obvious. 

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

The other angle above in this thread I thought showed he saw where Josh was and lowered his head on purpose. That was a bad angle imo. 

If you are going to play like that, expect those hits. Ask any rb in the league who seeks out contact. 

2 minutes ago, Greybeard said:

    Shoulder to the head?  You better look again.  It was helmet to helmet.

Those plays are going so fast and Allen plays like an aggressive rb. This is what happens when you play like that.

3 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Not really. Ivory and guys like that are much lower to the ground so lots of incidental stuff. This guy led with his helmet at a QB that was more upright. All about intent here. 

Ivory is not a low-to-the-ground back at all. He’s closer to yeldon than gore in that area. He also sought out contact and liked to deliver blows himself. Somewhat famously, actually.

Edited September 30, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Kelly the Dog]

5 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

If you are going to play like that, expect those hits. Ask any rb in the league who seeks out contact. 

Those plays are going so fast and Allen plays like an aggressive rb. This is what happens when you play like that.

 

In general I agree with that. On this play imo he was held up, another guy was tackling him, he was not the first hitter. He saw Josh held up and then and only then lowered his head and went helmet to helmet. And they do call that on WR and RB hits at times. 

[Greybeard]

   The reason Allen ran like that was because it was 3rd and 8 and he was hell bent on getting the first down.   He did that earlier in the game also.  Not saying it was smart but he was taking extra risk to make the first.   Also if he made it at the Pats 37 it was close to field goal range.   

     If he slid he was way short.

1 minute ago, Kelly the Dog said:

In general I agree with that. On this play imo he was held up, another guy was tackling him, he was not the first hitter. He saw Josh held up and then and only then lowered his head and went helmet to helmet. And they do call that on WR and RB hits at times. 

      Yes, it is the defenseless player rule.

[Maine-iac]

8 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Ones the hitter and the other is the hitee

Yep. Need to see the correct angle then it’s obvious. 

Defender led with the shoulder.  The helmet to helmet was Allens head into the defenders ear hole.  Watched both angles.  Allen was going to get blown up as a runner either way.  Defender was going to light him up.

[Virgil]

15 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/mattdolloff/status/1178427799947878405

 

just disagree with you, dog.

Why did you post that link and make me discover that guys existence?

 

I immediately want him to have softball sized kidney stones.  He’s an absolute piece 

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

Defender led with the shoulder.  The helmet to helmet was Allens head into the defenders ear hole.  Watched both angles.  Allen was going to get blown up as a runner either way.  Defender was going to light him up.

How can you say he led with his shoulder and use that pic? His helmet is clearly hitting Josh's, his shoulder is straight and not making contact. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Kelly the Dog

[Virgil]

I don’t care what he led with, he was trying to get a shot in. Allen was already being tackled.  
 

He should be fined and I’m going to bang his wife 

[Maine-iac]

Just now, Kelly the Dog said:

How Ann you say he led with his shoulder and use that pic? His helmet is clearly hitting Josh's, his shoulder is straight. 

For the love of God.  Yes their helmets hit.  Josh was going down head first.  Never said they didn't hit.  But the defender did not lead with his helmet.  His head was not down and he wasn't using the helmet as a weapon.  Yes he was going to blow Josh up.  Yes they hit helmets because as Just got tackled from behind and went down he went into the guy head first.  If he was upright he would have taken a huge hit in the chest.  He got it in the head instead.  You get a penalty for that.  I'm not disagreeing that it happened.  What I will say, and anyone who is actually objectively looking at the video should see, is that the defender didn't lead with the crown of the helmet.

[DuckyBoys]

Josh lowered his head to take the hit and the defender is much shorter than Allen to begin with  Could/should he have pulled up and not gone for the kill shot with Allen wrapped up?  Probably so but much as it pains me to say it Allen has to learn to protect himself  He is going to have a very short career if he keeps taking on tacklers.  Another mental aspect of the game he needs to work on  His #1 attribute is availability and now we might be watching a career back up instead

[GETTOTHE50]

missing the FG before the half sucked big time. it puts us within 3 after the td

[Pete]

Our D rocked.  Jordan Phillips played great.  So did Levi.  Yeldon and Zay suck.  Can Zay make a ***** play?  Get rid of Zay, give Duke his minutes

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

3 hours ago, Virgil said:

He just has to stop these back foot throws into coverage.  It’s scaring me how he isn’t learning 

 

Of course you don't want to see it but he's a gunslinger, you can't take that out of him and I don't think you want to. It does cause turnovers but it also causes amazing plays that will eventually happen. I'm more concerned with his deep ball, in all 3 games he's misfired at least once a guy deep who was a step or 2 behind the defender, that definitely needs some major work.

[GETTOTHE50]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

Our D rocked.  Jordan Phillips played great.  So did Levi.  Yeldon and Zay suck.  Can Zay make a ***** play?  Get rid of Zay, give Duke his minutes

 

i really dont see how he has a roster spot. makes no sense.

 

duke competes for the ball and run blocks much better.

[DuckyBoys]

1 minute ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

 

Of course you don't want to see it but he's a gunslinger, you can't take that out of him and I don't think you want to. It does cause turnovers but it also causes amazing plays that will eventually happen. I'm more concerned with his deep ball, in all 3 games he's misfired at least once a guy deep who was a step or 2 behind the defender, that definitely needs some major work.

I have been a Josh Allen guy since draft day but there is gunslinger and there is what he did today and they are two different things  Those late throws into coverage and taking sacks in FG range were just bone headed plays no good qb does often .  Let alone that many times in one game. It looked like Dabol and McDermot have a different mindset on how to handle it  Dabol was calling him out and looked like he wanted to slap him in the head  McDermott was trying some sort of jedi non confrontational thing on the sideline

[The Frankish Reich]

3 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Isn’t the biggest takeaway from today’s game that Brady looks to be in decline?  Almost no downfield passing.  Every time he had to move and re-set, he was off.  He looks weaker and slower to me and it’s about time. This is HUGE.

That's what I saw too. He's always been unwilling to stand in there and take a hit, but it seemed extreme today. The usual step up into the pocket wasn't there, so he'd roll right and throw it away/ground it. He looked ... old. And that was a wonderful thing.

[Bangarang]

I was at the game today and was watching the QBs warm up pregame. One thing I noticed was Allen was lackadaisical when throwing to receivers. Barkley was taking snaps from a coach and actually dropping back simulating game speed and stepping into throws whereas Allen took the snap, stood there and threw passes flat footed. It just looked lazy.

[TigerJ]

I did not keep track and have not been able to find any specific information, but I think Lee Smith had at least one holding call and three false starts. Buffalo spent a lot of money on this guy and he's alleged to be the best blocking TE in the league, not to mention a great locker room guy, but I'm not sure that any of that is worth enduring that many penalties.  Knox has shown the ability to make big plays and both he and Sweeney are good to very good blockers, with upside in that area.  

Edited September 30, 2019 by TigerJ

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, DuckyBoys said:

I have been a Josh Allen guy since draft day but there is gunslinger and there is what he did today and they are two different things  Those late throws into coverage and taking sacks in FG range were just bone headed plays no good qb does often .  Let alone that many times in one game. It looked like Dabol and McDermot have a different mindset on how to handle it  Dabol was calling him out and looked like he wanted to slap him in the head  McDermott was trying some sort of jedi non confrontational thing on the sideline

There is no question he makes those mistakes. But he has 15 starts. And a huge portion of what he has done well is because he takes chances and he runs and he scrambles and he throws passes he has no business throwing or completing. It's all part of the package right now this early in his career. He's not like anyone else and he cannot be compared as such. His strengths are part of his weaknesses. It's only through experience that he is going to change the percentage.  

[Virgil]

1 minute ago, TigerJ said:

I didn't see it in any other thread, (I could have missed it) but regarding Buffalo penalties, 8 were enforced against Buffalo.  I did not keep track and have not been about to find any specific information, but I think Lee Smith had at least one holding call and three false starts.  If anyone can confirm that or give a correction, I would appreciate it, but it that is close to being accurate, what is going on with this guy.  Buffalo spent a lot of money on this guy and he's alleged to be the best blocking TE in the league, not to mention a great locker room guy, but I'm not sure that any of that is worth enduring that many penalties.  Knox has shown the ability to make big plays and both he and Sweeney are good to very good blockers, with upside in that area.  

Lee had 4 accepted penalties against him 

[Gunsgoodtime]

3 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

It's almost like people are longing for the golden age of tuhrod.

Tuhrod help take us to the playoffs, suck on that popsicle a while

14 minutes ago, Pete said:

Our D rocked.  Jordan Phillips played great.  So did Levi.  Yeldon and Zay suck.  Can Zay make a ***** play?  Get rid of Zay, give Duke his minutes

Looking back, we should have drafted anyone but Zay, he is a complete bust

[Maine-iac]

1 minute ago, Kelly the Dog said:

There is no question he makes those mistakes. But he has 15 starts. And a huge portion of what he has done well is because he takes chances and he runs and he scrambles and he throws passes he has no business throwing or completing. It's all part of the package right now this early in his career. He's not like anyone else and he cannot be compared as such. His strengths are part of his weaknesses. It's only through experience that he is going to change the percentage.  

In keeping with this i will say if he actually gets that second interception to Zay it might have very well been a TD and there is the game we win.  All that said you don't make mistakes and beat the Pats.  So the current Josh Allen is going to have to learn if we want to go from good to serious contenders

[ILBillsfan]

did anyone mention dawkins two holding penalties that nullified defensive Offside and the hit on allen.... 

 

line was bad today

[Kelly the Dog]

3 minutes ago, ILBillsfan said:

did anyone mention dawkins two holding penalties that nullified defensive Offside and the hit on allen.... 

 

line was bad today

Pass blocking was awful. There were 3-4 plays Josh had enough time to throw it away but the replays often showed no one open. A lot of times the rush came quick. Not to excuse Allen, he didn't have a good day. But the Pats are good and our line was not. 

[Maine-iac]

You could argue that the first two picks on Josh weren't even that bad a decision (can't believe I'm doing this).  Even with the coverage if Josh throws the first one 5 yards farther Brown was behind Gilmore.  He was covered but he was behind Gilmore.  Same thing with Zay if the pass was 5 yards further it's possibly a catch.  So I'm on board with don't lose the gunslinger mentality.  That said if you are going to be a gunslinger who is off by 5 yards on all your deep passes it's going to be a long day. 

[The Frankish Reich]

3 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

He's essentially still a rookie, this was his 15th NFL game, so he's still prone to mistakes.  That said, I have to believe that these mistakes will weigh on him and he'll learn.  This isn't the year we go deep in the playoffs.  I'll still take 10-6 and a wildcard spot.

That was what we all used to say in an earlier NFL. Not so long ago, like maybe the 1990s.

That's not the way it goes anymore. We're in an NFL where the young franchise QBs make an immediate impression. Think about it:

- Russell Wilson

- Matt Ryan

- Dak Prescott

- Deshaun Watson

- Carson Wentz

- Cam Newton

- Andy Dalton

- Andrew Luck

- Joe Flacco

- Ben Roethlisberger

- Baker Mayfield? Lamar Jackson? Daniel Jones?? Gardner Minshew???

And then look at the guys who sat for a year, then IMMEDIATELY showed complete mastery of the position:

- Brady

- Mahomes

Expand it to "sat for 2 or 3 years, then as soon as he played showed IMMEDIATE mastery of the position," add:

- Rodgers

- Rivers

- Garoppolo??

The category of QBs who struggled mightily at the start and needed to actually play a season or two (or more) before they find their feet is shrinking every year. In fact, looking at NFL starters now, I guess you could say perhaps Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota are finally getting it, or that Jared Goff finally got it last year, or that Derek Carr got it after one full season. But those guys aren't in the same class as the guys who "got it" right away. You may have to go back to Drew Brees to find a future elite QB who struggled early on (or Peyton Manning before that). And back in the Manning-Brees era, that was the way it went - you suffered through your QBs growing pains and then he emerged as the real deal after a couple years. (Marino was the great exception.)

In other words, you know it when you see it, and nowadays you tend to see "it" right away. And I ain't seein' it yet with Josh, or Darnold or Rosen for that matter.

Edited September 30, 2019 by The Frankish Reich