Carl Paladino: Put new stadium in Cobblestone district

[May Day 10]

Hopefully this "rail" they build has some stops on grand island

[major]

Why not just build this back?

[Rochesterfan]

21 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Too many advocates of a downtown stadium dismiss how limiting downtown Buffalo's geography actually is when it comes to access.   Downtown is butted up  against Lake Erie, the Buffalo Harbor, and the Buffalo River on the west and south, which is why the development and population growth in the Buffalo area is -- and always has been -- to the north and east first.  Westward development has always been nil.  Outside of the Old First Ward neighborhoods right around the Harbor and the Buffalo River, southward development was late in coming since development in South Buffalo didn't real start until after 1900.  Buffalo's geography is why Erie County's population is concentrated in the Northtowns and northern parts of the eastern suburbs.  Whether by private vehicle, rail, bus or Uber, traffic from any stadium located in downtown Buffalo would be going primarily north or northeast.  It would be the heavy concentration of traffic, especially after games, that would require significant infrastructure upgrades to the highways.  Unfortunately, the closest limited access highway to a downtown stadium, I-190N, has limited possibilities for expansion because it runs along the Niagara River.  I-190S which connects to the Thruway, runs through miles of established neighborhoods.   

 

Geographically, downtown is just about the worst site in Erie County to locate a new stadium.  Cost-wise it will easily be the most expensive option for any new stadium because the cost of road expansion.  Putting the stadium in downtown by the Inner Harbor or in the Cobblestone district only exacerbates the problems and increase the costs.  I'm not sure if there are better sites in downtown, but there are better and cheaper sites within the city outside of downtown, some very close to downtown.  Not every venue or destination in Buffalo needs to be located in downtown.

 

 

You do realize pretty much every major city in the NE (almost across the US) are on some type of major water way right.  That is why the cities were built there.

 

The lakes and rivers that you are talking about limiting Buffalo - look at Cleveland, Chicago, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, etc.  They all managed to find ways to build Downtown stadiums right on their waterfronts.  Several of them have multiple Stadiums in the same area - to use the same infrastructure.

 

All of these cities also had the exact same trends as Buffalo and most major cities - families moving to the suburbs for years.  The difference - many of these cities began moving major events back downtown and building up the city and now more and more people are moving back into the city because of the growth.

 

Buffalo is seeing the exact same trend - younger families/couples with disposable income grabbing apartments downtown to be near Canalside for festivals, to be right in the heart of the rebuild and enjoy life.

 

People are correct in that a venue for football only has a limited number of uses per year and does little to bring in the money that it costs to build, but as cities like Pittsburgh have shown - it can be a big part of the revitalization of the area and can bring in businesses like bars, restaurants, casinos, hotels, etc. that help stabilize the areas and keep the growth.

 

Putting a stadium in OP is fine for the fans, but it does nothing to enhance the area.  Little has grown around the stadium because there is nothing there M-Sat.  There is already growth in the downtown area that has been going for years with people working M-F and events on Sat/Sun.  Supporting that growth helps and yes it will cost more, but somehow every major city finds ways to do exactly that many times with worse areas to work with.  

 

 

[May Day 10]

No "growth" comes from a football stadium.  Its proven fact.  I dont think a broke county/city/state should pay hundreds of millions in upgrades for a football stadium if "growth" from it is the goal.  

 

In Pittsburgh, there is stuff there because the ballpark.... and it is a nice, affluent city

 

If we had fortune 500 company(s) downtown and people were moving in there, thats great.  Now, its hipsters.  The only people who work in buffalo seem to be government workers and m&t.  All the stuff down there is window dressing until the city lands a white whale or 2 to be headquartered there

 

 

If we can press a button and a $700 Million stadium costs the same in Orchard Park.... and it would be the same price crowbarred in downtown, then that is great.  I would agree it should be downtown.  

However, it isn't the case.  Land acquisition, infrastructure, and roadways/rail system are going to need major work, and you also have a lot of issues with environmental studies, possible industrial legacy waste, etc.  In all, you could be talking more than double the cost, with little tangible benefit to the downtown area for the $.  All I am saying, is I predict in these studies, they are finding that building a new stadium on adjacent land in Orchard Park will allow them to get more bang for their buck as far as a facility goes, with far less red tape.  They could be looking at paying $750 Million for a new stadium and asking the Public to provide $750 Million in upgrades almost solely to service this stadium.  

 

This is much more than 'wah, I want tailgating'.  

Edited August 6, 2019 by May Day 10

[SoTier]

8 hours ago, purple haze said:

An issue for some years is that everything went to the suburbs.  That was the case in cities across the country.  Then the memo went out that 

a viable, developed downtown is good for businesses and culture.  Buffalo, as usual, stayed stuck in the past, but now seems to have emerged

from the spell of suburbia.  There are good arguments to be made for keeping the stadium in Orchard Park, but if folks can't see a downtown

stadium coming I don't know what to tell them.  And complaining about taxes and traffic and usage and no tailgating ain't stopping it.  

 

Working on roads and rail, both public transportation and trains will probably be part of stadium construction.  Yes, it will cost a lot of money.

Yes, tax payers will help fund it.  Yes, the Pegula's will kick in.  Yes, the NFL will probably kick in.  It is what it is.   I can see the state paying

for infrastructure: roads and rail;  the county, Pegula's and NFL and taxpayers covering the stadium.  I can also see a plan for a new Sabres 

arena as part of that construction.  When the stadium is built enjoy seeing the Bills play, and hopefully win.  Change is life.

 

 

50 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

You do realize pretty much every major city in the NE (almost across the US) are on some type of major water way right.  That is why the cities were built there.

 

The lakes and rivers that you are talking about limiting Buffalo - look at Cleveland, Chicago, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, etc.  They all managed to find ways to build Downtown stadiums right on their waterfronts.  Several of them have multiple Stadiums in the same area - to use the same infrastructure.

 

All of these cities also had the exact same trends as Buffalo and most major cities - families moving to the suburbs for years.  The difference - many of these cities began moving major events back downtown and building up the city and now more and more people are moving back into the city because of the growth.

 

Buffalo is seeing the exact same trend - younger families/couples with disposable income grabbing apartments downtown to be near Canalside for festivals, to be right in the heart of the rebuild and enjoy life.

 

People are correct in that a venue for football only has a limited number of uses per year and does little to bring in the money that it costs to build, but as cities like Pittsburgh have shown - it can be a big part of the revitalization of the area and can bring in businesses like bars, restaurants, casinos, hotels, etc. that help stabilize the areas and keep the growth.

 

Putting a stadium in OP is fine for the fans, but it does nothing to enhance the area.  Little has grown around the stadium because there is nothing there M-Sat.  There is already growth in the downtown area that has been going for years with people working M-F and events on Sat/Sun.  Supporting that growth helps and yes it will cost more, but somehow every major city finds ways to do exactly that many times with worse areas to work with.  

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

No "growth" comes from a football stadium.  Its proven fact.  I dont think a broke county/city/state should pay hundreds of millions in upgrades for a football stadium if "growth" from it is the goal.  

 

In Pittsburgh, there is stuff there because the ballpark.

 

If we had fortune 500 company(s) downtown and people were moving in there, thats great.  Now, its hipsters.  The only people who work in buffalo seem to be government workers and m&t.  All the stuff down there is window dressing until the city lands a white whale or 2 to be headquartered there

 

I'm going to address all three of these posts in 1 of my own.

 

First off, this isn't about 'suburbia' vs 'city'.  It is about the stubborn insistence on the part of Buffalo's supposed leaders that every single venue/institution has to be crowded into downtown, preferably within sight of City Hall.   Do you know why Paladino owns so much property in the Cobblestone District?  He's been sitting on a lot of empty lots there (after he demo'd the existing buildings, some of them of historic significance) for 20 years because at one time his pal ex-Buffalo mayor Tony Masiello had the bright idea of moving the Buffalo Zoo to that area and Paladino started buying up properties in anticipation for that project before it was made public.  When the scheme was made public, it was shot down by everyone, especially the Buffalo Zoological Society, as it should have been. 

 

Buffalo is more than just the downtown area.  There are other sites in the city that are better suited for a new stadium, and they aren't that far from downtown because Buffalo's physical area is relatively small (< 43 square miles), primarily because cities in New York State haven't been able to annex their suburbs since about 1900.  Some areas of the city aren't good sites for a stadium for a number of reasons, but primarily because they are already developed or are developing.  These the areas west of Main Street to the city line which encompasses Allentown, the Delaware District, North Buffalo and Black Rock and the neighborhoods east of Main Street, west of the Kensington Expressway, north of Downtown north to UB South Campus is either part of the Medical Campus or residential areas, some of which are gentrifying because of the Medical Campus like the Fruit Belt.

 

Two possibilities are in the area of the Central Terminal, where there's already rail and rail ROWs as well as lots of city owned property, which another poster suggested, and the area around Dingens/South Ogden Street I-190 exit which offers unused former warehouse facilities, rail, and interstate access.  Both of these sites are in areas where land acquisition costs will be much less than in Downtown or Cobblestone, and infrastructure upgrades/reconfiguration would be easier (and therefore cheaper).  The CT site is also close to the Broadway/Fillmore business district which includes the Broadway Market., an area certainly in need of redevelopment.   If an urban football stadium is truly a development catalyst as advocates claim, then this site would be perfect to prove that.  

 

I'm with May Day 10 and other skeptics of football stadiums as development engines, but a stadium near the CT or Dingens/South Ogden Street would at least not disrupt already developing areas. 

[May Day 10]

That S Ogden Street Site could work transportation-wise because the lots' egress could marry up with the 190, and you also have 90 there for easy escape anywhere.

 

 

[LabattBlue]

18 hours ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

I think a good spot is somewhere east of the airport by the 90. Then they can create a new dedicated exit right on to the 90 going east and west. There can be a little parkway going from the 90 to the stadium. 

 

There has to be some land out there. 

 

You mean a property like what used to be undeveloped behind Lancaster HS(Walden & Stony)?  LOL

On 8/5/2019 at 7:02 AM, May Day 10 said:

I dont care if its uber, lyft, horse and buggy, rickshaws, palanquins, or liberty cab.  The street pattern out of perry street/cobblestone is the same single lane gridlock going in 1 to 2 directions.  

 

The good news..if a stadium is built down there, not all 65,000 attending will be parking directly adjacent to the stadium. 

 

Consider this...~45,000 people used to attend Bills games in the middle of a residential neighborhood for almost a decade, and the only freeway access(Kensington Expy) was several blocks away.

[PromoTheRobot]

41 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

You mean a property like what used to be undeveloped behind Lancaster HS(Walden & Stony)?  LOL

The good news..if a stadium is built down there, not all 65,000 attending will be parking directly adjacent to the stadium. 

 

Consider this...~45,000 people used to attend Bills games in the middle of a residential neighborhood for almost a decade, and the only freeway access(Kensington Expy) was several blocks away.

 

And the Kensington didn't exist for most of the Rockpile's history. How did the city not collapse?

[May Day 10]

The city doesnt collapse after sabres games, but it is very inconvenient.  I find myself leaving in the 2nd intermission more and more and the traffic situation can be a deciding factor for me to stay at home.  

Edited August 6, 2019 by May Day 10

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, LabattBlue said:

Consider this...~45,000 people used to attend Bills games in the middle of a residential neighborhood for almost a decade, and the only freeway access(Kensington Expy) was several blocks away.

 

In those days, there were no suburbs for people to drive in from....   

 

[Malazan]

On 8/2/2019 at 9:30 AM, SoTier said:

Finally, the Bills could limp along for a season playing games at the UB Stadium and/or at the Carrier Dome in Syracuse.  The UB Stadium holds 25,000 and is configured for football -- the Chargers have been playing in a 25k soccer stadium for at least 2 seasons, so it can be done.  The Bears played their home games in Champagne, Ill (135 miles) while Soldier Field was being rebuilt, and the Packers played some games in Milwaukee for a number of years, which is about 120 miles away.

 

 

They could even play some games in Toronto ?

[LabattBlue]

14 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

In those days, there were no suburbs for people to drive in from....   

 

Huh?  In the 1960's there was no suburban population outside of the city of Buffalo?  I must have been dreaming of the time I spent in West Seneca in the 60's.  LOL

[PromoTheRobot]

2 hours ago, May Day 10 said:

The city doesnt collapse after sabres games, but it is very inconvenient.  I find myself leaving in the 2nd intermission more and more and the traffic situation can be a deciding factor for me to stay at home.  

 

No different than leaving a stadium lot in Orchard Park. Or for that matter, Foxboro. Traffic is unavoidable when you bring 60K together. But the Earth doesn't fall off its axis because of it.

[AllenLongBall]

On 8/5/2019 at 11:54 AM, mrags said:

Brian Moorman is a @ickbag

Where did he touch you?

[Augie]

1 hour ago, AllenLongBall said:

Where did he touch you?

 

I think you are supposed to use a doll for that. 

[Mr. WEO]

14 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

 

People are correct in that a venue for football only has a limited number of uses per year and does little to bring in the money that it costs to build, but as cities like Pittsburgh have shown - it can be a big part of the revitalization of the area and can bring in businesses like bars, restaurants, casinos, hotels, etc. that help stabilize the areas and keep the growth.

 

 

 

 

 

It's difficult to understand why people still believe this is true.

[mrags]

1 hour ago, AllenLongBall said:

Where did he touch you?

He didn’t. Maybe that’s the problem 

16 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I think you are supposed to use a doll for that. 

Why bother on the doll when you can use me for that 

[Lurker]

4 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

Huh?  In the 1960's there was no suburban population outside of the city of Buffalo?  I must have been dreaming of the time I spent in West Seneca in the 60's.  LOL

 

Not like it is today.   

 

Town of West Seneca Population

 

    1960:  29, 575

    2017:  45,325

 

Town of Amherst Population

 

    1960:  51,123

    2018:  125,659

 

Town of Lancaster Population

 

    1960:  19,068

    2018:  43,270

[SoTier]

15 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

In those days, there were no suburbs for people to drive in from....   

 

 

15 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

Huh?  In the 1960's there was no suburban population outside of the city of Buffalo?  I must have been dreaming of the time I spent in West Seneca in the 60's.  LOL

 

In the 1960s, the Buffalo's suburban development was primarily concentrated in Tonawanda, the southwestern part of Amherst along Niagara Falls Blvd and Main Street in what is now Eggertsville and Snyder, and west of the airport in Cheektowaga.  Development in the Southtowns was modest and very limited compared to the areas north and west of the city, most of it concentrated along Routes 5, 75, and 62 south to Hamburg.

 

The explosive development of Buffalo's outer ring suburbs beyond the areas described above really didn't start until the later 1980s and 1990s. 

[PromoTheRobot]

22 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

 

In the 1960s, the Buffalo's suburban development was primarily concentrated in Tonawanda, the southwestern part of Amherst along Niagara Falls Blvd and Main Street in what is now Eggertsville and Snyder, and west of the airport in Cheektowaga.  Development in the Southtowns was modest and very limited compared to the areas north and west of the city, most of it concentrated along Routes 5, 75, and 62 south to Hamburg.

 

The explosive development of Buffalo's outer ring suburbs beyond the areas described above really didn't start until the later 1980s and 1990s. 

 

You do realize there are cities with metro populations in the millions, several times larger than Buffalo, by a lakes, oceans and rivers, with multiple downtown arenas and stadiums, that somehow manage the traffic? You have yet to give a reasoned explanation why Buffalo would be paralyzed by a downtown stadium, and these other cities aren't?

[C.Biscuit97]

30 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

You do realize there are cities with metro populations in the millions, several times larger than Buffalo, by a lakes, oceans and rivers, with multiple downtown arenas and stadiums, that somehow manage the traffic? You have yet to give a reasoned explanation why Buffalo would be paralyzed by a downtown stadium, and these other cities aren't?

Yeah, the traffic leaving OP sucks.  Add a rail stop and that helps with some of the traffic (and brings in money for the city).  Also, with downtown looking like a real place, more people will go out after the game (especially after a W).  I think some people are overthinking this.  

[ColoradoBills]

57 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

You do realize there are cities with metro populations in the millions, several times larger than Buffalo, by a lakes, oceans and rivers, with multiple downtown arenas and stadiums, that somehow manage the traffic? You have yet to give a reasoned explanation why Buffalo would be paralyzed by a downtown stadium, and these other cities aren't?

 

If I was a betting man (and I am) I would put my money on south of 190 (Perry/First Ward/West Valley).

NYS will get funds to redo the on/off ramps and the trains will have a station right at the stadium.

[May Day 10]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

You do realize there are cities with metro populations in the millions, several times larger than Buffalo, by a lakes, oceans and rivers, with multiple downtown arenas and stadiums, that somehow manage the traffic? You have yet to give a reasoned explanation why Buffalo would be paralyzed by a downtown stadium, and these other cities aren't?

 

I have given the reason 10x.

 

The cobblestone district and arena are set back away from the highway, with some minor roads and cross-streets with a number of stoplights to get back to the only real route out of there. From most lots, you even need to make some turns (along with a thousand other people). It results in grid-lock cascading all the way back into the lots in the event of a game that everyone stays until the end.  There is also no passable public transit option.  

You can plainly see it in the 3rd period of a Sabres game, even when its close.  People bail to get a jump out of there and there are many blue seats.  

In order to correct this for a cobblestone or perry projects stadium, it will cost hundreds of millions.

 

Other cities have the stadium and lots butting up against an interstate, sometimes 2 (like the mentioned Ogden St location).  Cars get to the access of the highway from the lots and fan out quickly, with a little aid from police to direct traffic smoothly.  Most of the cities named have a robust city-proper population and a formidable public transit system.  Many people do not use/need vehicles.

 

 

Leaving a Bills game now isn't optimal, but it is much better than a Sabres game, even with many more vehicles.  You have a grid of major roads with multiple lanes that pass by most lots (Abbott, 20A, Southwestern).  That gets people moving in a relatively reasonable amount of time.

Edited August 7, 2019 by May Day 10

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, May Day 10 said:

 

I have given the reason 10x.

 

The cobblestone district and arena are set back away from the highway, with some minor roads and cross-streets with a number of stoplights to get back to the only real route out of there. From most lots, you even need to make some turns (along with a thousand other people). It results in grid-lock cascading all the way back into the lots in the event of a game that everyone stays until the end.  There is also no passable public transit option.  

You can plainly see it in the 3rd period of a Sabres game, even when its close.  People bail to get a jump out of there and there are many blue seats.  

In order to correct this for a cobblestone or perry projects stadium, it will cost hundreds of millions.

 

Other cities have the stadium and lots butting up against an interstate, sometimes 2 (like the mentioned Ogden St location).  Cars get to the access of the highway from the lots and fan out quickly, with a little aid from police to direct traffic smoothly.  Most of the cities named have a robust city-proper population and a formidable public transit system.  Many people do not use/need vehicles.

 

 

Leaving a Bills game now isn't optimal, but it is much better than a Sabres game, even with many more vehicles.  You have a grid of major roads with multiple lanes that pass by most lots (Abbott, 20A, Southwestern).  That gets people moving in a relatively reasonable amount of time.

 

No one is going to drive up to the stadium, like no one does that now. People have to walk some distance. That won't change. Parking will be scattered in every direction and each will have their own best route out. As for the Sabres, I get on the Metro and ride up to Fountain Square where I leave my car. Easy peasy.  In an earlier post, I proposed a shuttle bus/train from the Central Terminal. Acres of empty ground there. Perfect for tailgating.  They will figure something out if they decide they want the stadium downtown.

[Sanners]

On 8/2/2019 at 2:21 PM, SoTier said:

 

If you are talking about the CBD, yes it is mostly empty because  most buildings are filled with traditional 9-5, M-F type enterprises, but there are businesses there -- mostly restaurants, bars, gyms, theaters, etc.   Most are small places, but that doesn't mean that they should be kicked to the curb in order to build a sports palace that's used maybe 30 times a year at best.  Moreover,  'Downtown' is more than the CBD; Canalside and Erie Basin Marina are part of downtown, too, and the businesses there are packed on Sundays, especially in the summer and early fall.  The buildings these businesses in are on the tax rolls; a city/county/state owned stadium wouldn't be.

 

There are about 5-7k people living in the CBD and the outlying parts of downtown like Waterfront Village, Johnson Park,  the Theatre District. These people would find their lives signifcantly impacted by crowds of 70k people filling their streets, parking illegally, etc  The residents of the Marine Drive apartments and the Waterfront Village would find it difficult if not  impossible to get in or out of their neighborhoods on game days/nights.

Screw the Marine Drive Apartment eye sore. They need to move that subsidized housing elsewhere from prime real estate. 

[oldmanfan]

I haven't been back to town in a while, but I try to keep up with the news around town.  From what I can tell, there is a resurgence in the downtown area with the expansion of the medical school the other Pegula projects, new bars/restaurants, etc.  My assumption has been that the Pegulas are interested in rejuvenating the city.  Hence their different projects in the city, building a new arena and such.  So my assumption has been that, when they build a new stadium, it would be in the city and not in OP.

 

I can't speak to the traffic situation that would arise, since I haven't been in the area for a while and I'm not sure where they would build.  I can however share some parallels I think with what I saw here in Indy and what Is aw when the Rich was first opened in '73.  When the Rich was opened, it was a nightmare.  I drove my mom and little brother to the first pre-season game; left Sheridan and Sweet Home Road at3:30 for a 7:30 start and sat in our seats right before kickoff.  But things got worked out; traffic flow was adjusted to have all but one lane going in to the stadium pre-game and all but one lane out post-game.  Folks figured out different routes (like we went Bailey to Abbott instead of the 290/90/219). Here in Indy where the stadium is right downtown folks have figured out different routes, and there are enough parking garages, lots, etc. to fit everyone without much problem.  That just would have to be accounted for when designing any new stadium downtown.

 

As for tailgating, again looking at Indy it doesn't appear to be an issue, although tailgating is not the experience of a Bills tailgating crowd.  There are designated lots, folks are seen tailgating all around the stadium.  And for visiting  they have a designated area right next to the stadium.  My family parked near it last year when the Bills were in town, walked a bit of the ways with our coolers, and no problem .  Partied with tons of other Bills fans and even drank a shot out of a bowling ball!

 

My guess is the new place will be downtown  And if it is, I think the worries about traffic, tailgates, and such will be readily answered.  Maybe not the first game but if Bills fans are anything they're resourceful.

 

. 

[Rochesterfan]

4 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

No one is going to drive up to the stadium, like no one does that now. People have to walk some distance. That won't change. Parking will be scattered in every direction and each will have their own best route out. As for the Sabres, I get on the Metro and ride up to Fountain Square where I leave my car. Easy peasy.  In an earlier post, I proposed a shuttle bus/train from the Central Terminal. Acres of empty ground there. Perfect for tailgating.  They will figure something out if they decide they want the stadium downtown.

 

 

Agreed - and looking at other stadiums - Buffalo would be no different - you have the 190 sitting right there - part of the infrastructure would be to add probably a new entrance/exit ramp right near some parking - could be around Michigan Ave.  you could also add a 190 to Skyway turn just north of Main Street and now immediately with little change you have 190 N and S to 90 and the Skyway.

 

Plus there is already a rail turn around by the Harbor Center already - so you have easy ability for light rail/metro line to the east.  Need to create a stop.  There are also already several parks in the area around 1st ward district and perry - that is already city owned property.

 

I don’t know if this is where they will build or not and I don’t really care as long as we get a nice new stadium someplace.  I just do not see the issues others see - I see a lot of potential to create an area like many other cities with all of the arenas within a small radius - all using similar infrastructure and planning.  

 

 

[SoTier]

6 hours ago, Sanners said:

Screw the Marine Drive Apartment eye sore. They need to move that subsidized housing elsewhere from prime real estate. 

 

Screw crooked millionaire developers and billionaire team owners -- and their supporters -- who want to ride rough-shod over ordinary people while demanding public financing of their projects and stadiums.

 

FYI, the Marine Drive Apartments are not "subsidized apartments".  They're publicly owned apartments managed by the Buffalo Municipal Housing Authority and regulated by the Department of Housing and Community Renewal that provide affordable housing.  Most of the tenants are lower middle income individuals and families, including many retirees who moved there when nobody else wanted to live Downtown.

[Lurker]

47 minutes ago, SoTier said:

Most of the tenants are lower middle income individuals and families with inside connections to City Hall or the Common Council including many retirees who moved there when nobody else wanted to live Downtown.

 

Fixed.

 

https://buffalonews.com/2015/06/13/marine-drive-apartments-in-trouble-on-the-waterfront/

 

Marine Drive Apartments is owned and run by the Buffalo Municipal Housing Authority, which charges monthly rental fees ranging from $305 to $565, including most utilities.

 

The apartment complex was built for low-income residents in 1951, and was originally called Dante Place.  In the 1960s, the authority turned over the operations to a tenants’ association.

 

Many older tenants said the tenants’ association did an excellent and efficient job of running Marine Drive and maintaining the property for 40 years. 

 

But critics accused the tenants’ association of discriminating against minorities who applied to move in and giving special preference to government employees and people with political connections.

 

“It was publicly subsidized segregation,” said Scott Gehl, executive director of Housing Opportunities Made Equal, a not-for-profit group that fights housing discrimination in Buffalo. “A lot of the older tenants say things were wonderful in the good old days, but it was a segregated place for people who were blessed with political connections.”

[Locomark]

On 8/3/2019 at 10:08 AM, Jrb1979 said:

A stadium downtown will have smaller tailgating area, probably in Bills owned lots. Its also their way of getting people to go to the bars near the stadium to tailgate. With everything the Pegulas have done to downtown, why wouldn't they put a new Bills stadium there. 

 

Bills fans seem to be the only fanbase against a new stadium. Most other fanbases would love to have a new stadium. I would love a stadium like Atlanta has. Nice big concourses and better amenities. 

You are crazy if you think Buffalo bars can support 70,000 people for 8-10 days a year... Atlanta, Chicago, etc are cities with giant metro populations that can sustain those bars and restaurants year round. Buffalo can not, it’s just not big enough. 

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, Locomark said:

You are crazy if you think Buffalo bars can support 70,000 people for 8-10 days a year... Atlanta, Chicago, etc are cities with giant metro populations that can sustain those bars and restaurants year round. Buffalo can not, it’s just not big enough. 

 

Alcohol, like life, seems to find a way. 

 

Better or worse downtown? No dog in that fight as long as they are in WNY. 

[Rochesterfan]

6 hours ago, Locomark said:

You are crazy if you think Buffalo bars can support 70,000 people for 8-10 days a year... Atlanta, Chicago, etc are cities with giant metro populations that can sustain those bars and restaurants year round. Buffalo can not, it’s just not big enough. 

 

 

This is non-sense - the number of Bars and restaurants would not be the same as Atlanta and Chicago, but their are already a ton in that area that survive just fine right now on Daily Downtown workers, summer festivals at Canalside, tourists, Hockey fans, baseball fans, people going to the casino, and college students.  Adding a football venue downtown near the already growing business gives 8-10 additional days of revenue on top of their already busy schedules at times.

 

If you are building the stadium in the current location and want to argue it won’t support Bars and restaurants- I could agree because then it is only the football stadium to draw from, but downtown around the other stadiums - the area already draw fans for 40 baseball games in summer, 40 hockey games in winter, several festivals and concerts throughout the summer weekends.  They already have at least 90-100 days of draw and the 8-10 more would be huge.

 

Additionally - they have drawn the the NHL combine multiple times, NHL draft, NCAA tournament games, etc.into the area.  Build the stadium there and have training camp downtown and you go from 8-10 days for football to 25-30 days in the prime of the late summer.  

 

The football stadium no matter where you build it will never pay for itself, but as in places like Pittsburgh it can be used to help support the growth that is already occurring.  Buffalo would be no different.

[SoTier]

11 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

Fixed.

 

https://buffalonews.com/2015/06/13/marine-drive-apartments-in-trouble-on-the-waterfront/

 

Marine Drive Apartments is owned and run by the Buffalo Municipal Housing Authority, which charges monthly rental fees ranging from $305 to $565, including most utilities.

 

The apartment complex was built for low-income residents in 1951, and was originally called Dante Place.  In the 1960s, the authority turned over the operations to a tenants’ association.

 

Many older tenants said the tenants’ association did an excellent and efficient job of running Marine Drive and maintaining the property for 40 years. 

 

But critics accused the tenants’ association of discriminating against minorities who applied to move in and giving special preference to government employees and people with political connections.

 

“It was publicly subsidized segregation,” said Scott Gehl, executive director of Housing Opportunities Made Equal, a not-for-profit group that fights housing discrimination in Buffalo. “A lot of the older tenants say things were wonderful in the good old days, but it was a segregated place for people who were blessed with political connections.”

 

I'm not defending the policies for selecting tenants for the Marine Drive Apartments, but pointing out that they have not been housing for poor people for at least 50 years, although they started out that way when they were built in the early 1950s.  Racism and racial/ethnic segregation have been endemic in Buffalo since Famine Irish immigrants were segregated in/around Canal Street and the Old First Ward in the 1850s, and it's still alive and well among too many older Buffalonians who don't apparently understand -- or care -- that the racist crap they spout is offensive. 

 

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

This is non-sense - the number of Bars and restaurants would not be the same as Atlanta and Chicago, but their are already a ton in that area that survive just fine right now on Daily Downtown workers, summer festivals at Canalside, tourists, Hockey fans, baseball fans, people going to the casino, and college students.  Adding a football venue downtown near the already growing business gives 8-10 additional days of revenue on top of their already busy schedules at times.

 

If you are building the stadium in the current location and want to argue it won’t support Bars and restaurants- I could agree because then it is only the football stadium to draw from, but downtown around the other stadiums - the area already draw fans for 40 baseball games in summer, 40 hockey games in winter, several festivals and concerts throughout the summer weekends.  They already have at least 90-100 days of draw and the 8-10 more would be huge.

 

Additionally - they have drawn the the NHL combine multiple times, NHL draft, NCAA tournament games, etc.into the area.  Build the stadium there and have training camp downtown and you go from 8-10 days for football to 25-30 days in the prime of the late summer.  

 

The football stadium no matter where you build it will never pay for itself, but as in places like Pittsburgh it can be used to help support the growth that is already occurring.  Buffalo would be no different.

 

What you are proposing is simply rearranging the deck chairs on Titanic.   There's a limit to how many restaurants and/or bars an area can support without adding significant population within the area.   Adding more restaurants and bars than an area can support will result in some of the new or the old ones failing.  Certainly 8 or 10 or even 30 "high receipts" dates can't support enough new bars and restaurants in downtown to justify the extra tens of millions dollars in taxpayer subsidies a stadium in downtown would require.

[Rochesterfan]

24 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

I'm not defending the policies for selecting tenants for the Marine Drive Apartments, but pointing out that they have not been housing for poor people for at least 50 years, although they started out that way when they were built in the early 1950s.  Racism and racial/ethnic segregation have been endemic in Buffalo since Famine Irish immigrants were segregated in/around Canal Street and the Old First Ward in the 1850s, and it's still alive and well among too many older Buffalonians who don't apparently understand -- or care -- that the racist crap they spout is offensive. 

 

 

What you are proposing is simply rearranging the deck chairs on Titanic.   There's a limit to how many restaurants and/or bars an area can support without adding significant population within the area.   Adding more restaurants and bars than an area can support will result in some of the new or the old ones failing.  Certainly 8 or 10 or even 30 "high receipts" dates can't support enough new bars and restaurants in downtown to justify the extra tens of millions dollars in taxpayer subsidies a stadium in downtown would require.

 

 

What are you even talking about.  There are already a ton of bars and restaurants around the hockey and the baseball stadium and new ones are popping up all of the time to take advantage of the summer festivals.  These are all already there and are already surviving without the stadium.  Plus expand the search toward Lafayette Square, and Chippewa - both sites right on the free Metro line and are common hangouts with tons of bars and restaurants. 

 

Nothing is being rearranged - these places already exist and do a good enough business to survive year around.  These are also prime areas that could and would handle some game day parking and these would replace some of the tailgating at the stadium.

 

Yes adding the stadium downtown would cause and immediate increase in the number and then subsequently some will go out of business, but the area already has a bunch of these businesses and unlike say Orchard Park where there is nothing around the stadium - these business already handle game day crowds.

 

Additionally as I said - if you build it in OP near the current stadium - the number of dates is very limited, but downtown those limited number of days intertwine with the limited number of hockey dates, the limited number of baseball games, the limited number of concerts in the park and Canalside festivals.  You are adding 15-30 days to the already 100+ days that people are in the area.

 

I understand you are against spending the money.  I get that, but in the end a new stadium is going to get built.  If it is in Orchard Park great, but all that does it keep the current dynamic.  It does nothing for anything because you are building a huge venue for literally 8 games and the area sits empty the rest of the time.  If you build it downtown - it is in an area that is already growing and changing.  You add it to the 2 other arenas already there that draw people - just like places Cincinnati and Pittsburgh - plus you have other draws to the area and you now give more dates for the places to make money.

 

The stadium wherever you put it is not going to ever make back the money it costs - they never do.  The decision will then be where do the Pegula, and the city and the state feel they can get the most bang for the buck.  

 

The arguments for and against a downtown stadium are numerous, but the things I keep reading are all just excuses without any real thought.  There is already in place a subway/metro line from east to west to the current downtown arena.  It extends all the way to the UB Main Street Campus and the lower above ground rides are all free.

 

There is already a North/South Amtrak line that has a stop right near Michigan with multiple lines into the north towns and the south towns - with minor changes that could be used for a light rail setup to move people from large tailgating lots from down near the old Ford stamping plant area and up near Grand Island.

 

There is already 2 major roadways that lead out of the area in the Skyway and the 190.  Yes it would need some changes to on/off ramps to better fit the needs, but it really needs that anyway because the current ramps were designed for the Aud and the baseball stadium.  

 

The city already owns a number of parking areas and parks in the area - so they can determine what other land and areas they need to acquire to get the space needed.

 

I don’t buy that it can’t happen because of the location - I can buy if the study shows it costs to much that they could decide on a cheaper alternative, but I think the difference is going to have to be astronomical to prevent the logical move to consolidate a ton of the Pegulas property and allow them to continue to invest into the major downtown area around the Arena. 

 

In the end - what do I care - they are going to spend the money.  They are going to build something that costs more than it generates.  They are going to decide what is best for the principals involved - NFL, Pegula’s, City, and after all that they will decide what will provide a positive fan experience. 

 

[Offside Number 76]

I've said it before and I guess I'll say it again:  We move 40,000 cars in and out of downtown Buffalo every weekday, and there's no reason to believe that we can't do it on Sunday, too.

[Boatdrinks]

30 minutes ago, Offside Number 76 said:

I've said it before and I guess I'll say it again:  We move 40,000 cars in and out of downtown Buffalo every weekday, and there's no reason to believe that we can't do it on Sunday, too.

It’s a fair point. There’s very little traffic on a typical Sunday vs a weekday downtown. Not that big of a deal. 

[RiotAct]

1 hour ago, Offside Number 76 said:

I've said it before and I guess I'll say it again:  We move 40,000 cars in and out of downtown Buffalo every weekday, and there's no reason to believe that we can't do it on Sunday, too.

true, but let’s look at the “out of” part of that equation.

 

On a typical downtown workday, you have people leaving work during a very spread-out time window (roughly 3:30 - 5:30 PM), from several different lots and parking garages within the area bounded by Oak (east), Lower Terrace (west), Goodell (north), and Exchange (south)

 

With a football game, the vast majority of those people will all be trying to leave at the same time, AND they’ll be leaving the exact same location.  i.e., shitshow with the current infrastructure.  the 

 

EDITED TO ADD: okay, mostly the same location.  Sure there will be some people who park over a mile away and walk, but...

Edited August 8, 2019 by RiotAct

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, RiotAct said:

 

With a football game, the vast majority of those people will all be trying to leave at the same time, AND they’ll be leaving the exact same location.  i.e., shitshow with the current infrastructure.  the 

 

EDITED TO ADD: okay, mostly the same location.  Sure there will be some people who park over a mile away and walk, but...

 

Only newbs leave immediately after a game.   Most tix holders go back to the parking lot and wait for traffic to thin out...

 

If anything, it's more of a mess in OP now since there are only 3-4 main exit routes.  In downtown Buffalo, there are many, many exit routes in every direction (if you're familiar with the city and not some suburban deer in the headlight-type).

 

A downtown stadium would be a different game day experience.  But not one that's anywhere near a shitshow...

[Sanners]

19 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Screw crooked millionaire developers and billionaire team owners -- and their supporters -- who want to ride rough-shod over ordinary people while demanding public financing of their projects and stadiums.

 

FYI, the Marine Drive Apartments are not "subsidized apartments".  They're publicly owned apartments managed by the Buffalo Municipal Housing Authority and regulated by the Department of Housing and Community Renewal that provide affordable housing.  Most of the tenants are lower middle income individuals and families, including many retirees who moved there when nobody else wanted to live Downtown.

Really? I guess you don’t know the truth about who “rents” there. Even so, they can move the affordable housing to a much better facility, with better parking and open up that land for investment. See every other city in America. 

[Malazan]

3 minutes ago, Sanners said:

Really? I guess you don’t know the truth about who “rents” there. Even so, they can move the affordable housing to a much better facility, with better parking and open up that land for investment. See every other city in America. 

 

Yea, why should people be able to live in the area they work in...and poor people give up their rights by being poor when it inconveniences me.