How can we not be all in on Metcalf now?

[Solomon Grundy]

Just now, Jobot said:

 

Does anyone know of any receivers who turned out great after a poor 3-cone drill performance?

 

Tried to google but couldn't find much.  I was wondering what Calvin Johnson's time was.

It was posted that Deandre Hopkins, Dez Bryant and Robert Woods posted similar times

[billsfan_34]

22 hours ago, HansLanda said:

 

#1 thing DK didn't have at the college level were numbers - and why did Brown have double the production in terms of yards? I know DK was dinged up (that also is a question mark about his availability) but if he cannot make cuts and get open consistently in NCAA, then he's just a shiny object that doesn't make a difference on the field in the NFL. If his route tree consists of go's and posts, then he is not worth it at 9...IMHO

Alot of people get so wrapped around strength and speed that they forget the finer points or become tunnel visioned because they like what they see. Maybe DK has a fine NFL career- hindsight is always 20/20 but everything I see right now gives me concern and at 9 it would be a huge reach. 

[Chicken Boo]

10 minutes ago, Jobot said:

 

Does anyone know of any receivers who turned out great after a poor 3-cone drill performance?

 

Tried to google but couldn't find much.  I was wondering what Calvin Johnson's time was.

 

I'd say Adam Theilan is doing pretty well.

[NewEraBills]

People are complicating this and it is somewhat complicated on whether you take Metcalf or Oliver.  I'm a defensive guy and I generally always would take defense first.  But in this case I'm taking Metcalf.  The way I look at Beane's pattern from last April, man swing for the fence.  Allen and Edmunds were swing for the fence picks.  They had the size and athleticism that other guys didn't have but they were very unpolished.  I think of Metcalf somewhat similarly.  He's a swing for the fence pick.  And if he is available at 9 if I'm Beane I'm stepping up to the plate looking down center field and I'm pointing the bat at the scoreboard because when I swing I'm trying to hit it.  To me it's not complicated.  This isn't Darius Heywood Bey.  This is a guy that has shown big play potential vs Alabama.  I'm not saying he caught a ton of passes and amassed tons of yards, but if you watch that one clip, he knows how to handle press coverage and get behind it; if you watch his game winning catch vs UK he can high point in the redzone and come down with it.  He does have break away speed.  He has good hands.  He will just need to work on the route running and durability.  

 

But alas, if he makes it out of the top 5 he will not make it past Detroit, who picks right before us.

[DCOrange]

10 minutes ago, K-9 said:

The difference between Jones’s 6.66 3 cone and 4.25 20 yard shuttle vs. Metcalf’s 7.38 and 4.50, respectively, is far from nearly identical. No doubt Metcalf is the slightly more explosive straight line and stronger athlete, but in terms of the total package required for receivers, his seeming lack of decent, let alone elite agility,  calls into question his route running ability. He’s just not the same kind of wideout as Jones.

 

I'm not really talking about that. It's fine to poke holes in Metcalf over his agility, though I think people are taking it a bit too far. I take issue with people that don't like Metcalf saying that he must be David Boston because he's big and strong as if we haven't seen big and strong guys have success before.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

5 minutes ago, the skycap said:

Kiss of/pic of death

a good probability 

 

I was watching and I was thinking Where did they scrape these guys up from?   Junior Junior varsity? 

[BuffAlone]

6 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Oh you're going to see it.  Right here in Buffalo!

 

The same can be and was said for Josh Allen at this time last year.

 

I know what I see.

Thats cool. I'm not saying he's not talented. Im saying that his talent/ skill does not fit us at #9 overall. Let's not act as if tho QB's above any other position are not the exception to the rule. I'm saying we can get an immediate return if we draft an elite D or O lineman at 9 and get a very good WR later in the draft that may be comparable to the production we'd get out of DK in the offensive philosophy that McBeane chooses to operate

[NewEraBills]

11 minutes ago, the skycap said:

I'd trade back to acquire more picks/talent

I'm taking Metcalf.  I'll use a Gettlemanism.  Do I want a quarter or do I want two dimes and a nickle.  I prefer the quarter.

 

3 minutes ago, billsfan_34 said:

Alot of people get so wrapped around strength and speed that they forget the finer points or become tunnel visioned because they like what they see. Maybe DK has a fine NFL career- hindsight is always 20/20 but everything I see right now gives me concern and at 9 it would be a huge reach. 

 

Here's my thing, if you were not concerned about Allen and Edmunds last year then why would you be concerned about DK?  It's the same kind of pick in my eyes.  It's a swing for the fence pick.  Those two turned out ok. 

[BuffAlone]

1 minute ago, NewEraBills said:

I'm taking Metcalf.  I'll use a Gettlemanism.  Do I want a quarter or do I want two dimes and a nickle.  I prefer the quarter.

 

 

Here's my thing, if you were not concerned about Allen and Edmunds last year then why would you be concerned about DK?  It's the same kind of pick in my eyes.  It's a swing for the fence pick.  Those two turned out ok. 

Those were two QB's. T hats a little different than skill players

[NewEraBills]

2 minutes ago, BuffAlone said:

Thats cool. I'm not saying he's not talented. Im saying that his talent/ skill does not fit us at #9 overall. Let's not act as if tho QB's above any other position are not the exception to the rule. I'm saying we can get an immediate return if we draft an elite D or O lineman at 9 and get a very good WR later in the draft that may be comparable to the production we'd get out of DK in the offensive philosophy that McBeane chooses to operate

 

And what philosophy is that?  If last year was any indication, a lot of vertical routes were in many of the game plans.

[K-9]

1 minute ago, DCOrange said:

 

I'm not really talking about that. It's fine to poke holes in Metcalf over his agility, though I think people are taking it a bit too far. I take issue with people that don't like Metcalf saying that he must be David Boston because he's big and strong as if we haven't seen big and strong guys have success before.

We won’t know if we’re taking it a bit too far until we see him trying to get in and out of the cuts the entire route tree presents while being defended by similarly athletically gifted DBs. 

 

I agree the comparisons to Boston are unfair. 

[Chicken Boo]

10 minutes ago, BuffAlone said:

Thats cool. I'm not saying he's not talented. Im saying that his talent/ skill does not fit us at #9 overall. Let's not act as if tho QB's above any other position are not the exception to the rule. I'm saying we can get an immediate return if we draft an elite D or O lineman at 9 and get a very good WR later in the draft that may be comparable to the production we'd get out of DK in the offensive philosophy that McBeane chooses to operate

 

The potential combination of Allen to Metcalf should make any Bills fan smile.  Metcalf helps Allen tremendously.  That's where I'm at.

 

After free agency, we'll get more of a sense of what Beane may do in the draft.

[NewEraBills]

1 minute ago, BuffAlone said:

Those were two QB's. T hats a little different than skill players

 

Edmunds isn't a QB per say.  And even if he was, a swing for the fence pick is a swing for the fence pick.  We had the near 32nd passing attack in the league last year and to me you fix that by addressing the OL and infusing the best talent at the WR position when you have your franchise QB in house.  There are a lot of guys that have better production due to availability.  But you're not going to find any with that talent.  Take him if he's there.

[Jay_Fixit]

3 minutes ago, K-9 said:

We won’t know if we’re taking it a bit too far until we see him trying to get in and out of the cuts the entire route tree presents while being defended by similarly athletically gifted DBs. 

 

I agree the comparisons to Boston are unfair. 

To Boston they are.

 

David Boston was a stud at Ohio State and also in the NFL until his extra caricular habits took over and he came unravelled.

[NewEraBills]

4 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

The potential combination of Allen to Metcalf should make any Bills fan smile.  Metcalf helps Allen tremendously.  That's where I'm at.

 

After free agency, we'll get more of a sense of what Beane may do in the draft.

 

I look at it this way.  Not only does he help Allen.  If we run 11 with Metcalf and Foster on the perimeter, what's the defense going to do run the risk of covering Foster and Metcalf 1 v 1 so they can defend the run with an extra player?  He has the potential to help the entire offense.

[K-9]

14 minutes ago, the skycap said:

It was posted that Deandre Hopkins, Dez Bryant and Robert Woods posted similar times

Hopkins and Bryant didn’t run a 3 cone and both had the same time in the 20 yard shuttle with a 4.5

 

Woods’s 3 cone was a 7.15, a full .23 better, while his 20 yard shuttle was slightly better at 4.47. 

[billsfan_34]

6 minutes ago, NewEraBills said:

I'm taking Metcalf.  I'll use a Gettlemanism.  Do I want a quarter or do I want two dimes and a nickle.  I prefer the quarter.

 

 

Here's my thing, if you were not concerned about Allen and Edmunds last year then why would you be concerned about DK?  It's the same kind of pick in my eyes.  It's a swing for the fence pick.  Those two turned out ok. 

Because we dont need to take another huge swing this year imo. Allen at 7 may not of been BPA but we needed a franchise QB. But who knows what the Bills draft board looks like. I would like to think we go BPA and if they think DK is it so be it. 

 

Where we got Edmunds was pure value. I think he was BPA- again just my opinion. That said, I dont like him in the middle- he tackles too high and needs to get lower. I see him better suited for the outside.

[HeHateMe]

13 hours ago, BuffaloFan68 said:

So you have Metcalf & Jonah Williams staring at you with the 9th pick & a team like the Redskins offering you to trade back where we could still grab a player like  T.J. Hockenson, TE - what do you do? 

 

Trade back for sure.

[NewEraBills]

7 minutes ago, billsfan_34 said:

Because we dont need to take another huge swing this year imo. Allen at 7 may not of been BPA but we needed a franchise QB. But who knows what the Bills draft board looks like. I would like to think we go BPA and if they think DK is it so be it. 

 

Where we got Edmunds was pure value. I think he was BPA- again just my opinion. That said, I dont like him in the middle- he tackles too high and needs to get lower. I see him better suited for the outside.

 

Near 32nd in the league in passing suggest to me that we do need to take another swing.  And to add, one of the worse rushing backfields, with the exception of the QB, to mean it says you need better OL, but you also need another threat to take the top off so defenses can't just sit on the run game.  We have a QB with an arm, we need perimeter WR's who can fly and make defenses pay.  Why do people not want this?  It will actually open up the run game too.

Edited March 4, 2019 by NewEraBills

[BuffAlone]

29 minutes ago, NewEraBills said:

 

And what philosophy is that?  If last year was any indication, a lot of vertical routes were in many of the game plans.

Run first. Play action. Speed can be found anywhere. It doesn't have to come in the form of DK at 9. To me, speed and strength is his top qualities. If he's gonna be just used as a deep threat, that's attainable at a lower cost. What we need that we don't have, is a big bodied, smoothe route running possession reciever

28 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

The potential combination of Allen to Metcalf should make any Bills fan smile.  Metcalf helps Allen tremendously.  That's where I'm at.

 

After free agency, we'll get more of a sense of what Beane may do in the draft.

I agree. I love his play. Just not at 9

22 minutes ago, NewEraBills said:

 

I look at it this way.  Not only does he help Allen.  If we run 11 with Metcalf and Foster on the perimeter, what's the defense going to do run the risk of covering Foster and Metcalf 1 v 1 so they can defend the run with an extra player?  He has the potential to help the entire offense.

All for naught if our line ain't fixed. Rome wasn't built in a day

Edited March 4, 2019 by BuffAlone

[NewEraBills]

4 minutes ago, BuffAlone said:

Run first. Play action. Speed can be found anywhere. It doesn't have to come in the form of DK at 9. To me, speed and strength is his top qualities. If he's gonna be just used as a deep threat, that's attainable at a lower cost. What we need that we don't have, is a big bodied, smoothie route running possession reciever

 

I'm not reducing Metcalf to a speed guy.  He can run comeback routes; Digs; screens, Posts.  His tape shows that.  Jones needs to play the slot in that possession role along with the TE.  Metcalf can actually catch.  Beating the press at the line is another of his top qualities.  It's more than speed and strength.

Edited March 4, 2019 by NewEraBills

[BuffAlone]

1 minute ago, NewEraBills said:

 

I'm not reducing Metcalf to a speed guy.  He can run comeback routes; Digs; screens, Posts.  His tape shows that.  Jones needs to play the slot in that possession role along with the TE.  Metcalf can actually catch.  Beating the press at the line is another of his top qualities.  It's more than speed and strength.

I hear ya bud, I just think he's a luxury pick that we don't have the luxury of drafting at 9 when our lines need just as much attention. A better O line helps Allen just as much, if not more, than DK does IMO

[colin]

assuming our FO doesn't go gaga over a DL who is still available at 9, and they aren't sold on the OL (seems everyone likes about 12 guys on the OL and we grab one in the 2nd), i'm good with Metcalf.

 

normally i'd be concerned with the super athlete who hasn't put it together yet profile, but a big thing to me is his NFL bloodline.  That means he was born with talent, seems to have a top notch work ethic, and he has experienced role models who have given him an idea of what the NFL will bring.

 

with our new CFL wideout underneath making veteran reads and moves, and w our bama crimsonflash on the outside, throwing in DK (and a TE, not sure where we get him but it's a need) makes our WR corps a disgusting size and speed match up.  we might even bring back WR screens and get some 3rd and short yardage situations, which we seem to avoid like ebola.

[NewEraBills]

2 minutes ago, BuffAlone said:

I hear ya bud, I just think he's a luxury pick that we don't have the luxury of drafting at 9 when our lines need just as much attention. A better O line helps Allen just as much, if not more, than DK does IMO

 

Which is why I've always advocated

Rd. 1 Metcalf if there.

Rd. 2 Chris Lindstrom or Dalton Risner. -Fix the interior first.  Build from the inside out.

[akm0404]

Can he score touchdowns? I like touchdowns.

[NewEraBills]

To me you draft him and ask him to do the following:

 

1)  Screens

2)  9/Go routes

3) Deep Post routes

4)  Slants

5)  Deep Crossers

 

You don't ask him to run double move routes that's all.  I'd say he's a Demaryius Thomas archetype with more speed and explosiveness.  To me he fits in great with Josh Allen's abilities.  Now that I think about it I would probably actually try to also get a guy like Andy Isabella if he's still there in the 3rd and have him man the slot.  He can run all of the quicks and double moves.  That would me bye to Zay unless he can show he has the agility and speed to get open on the short routes.

[ctk232]

23 hours ago, K-9 said:

He’s only an athletic freak in terms of feats involving moving in a straight line, either straight up (vertical jump) or straight ahead (long jump and 40).

 

He is the exact opposite of athletic freak in the change of direction tests. 

 

He will make some team very happy if that team only requires a receiver to move in a straight line. 

Right? Forgive me, but when did you not need to be able to change direction and not need elite agility to be coined an "athletic freak?" Did I miss the memo where athletes will no longer be evaluated in their ability to change direction? A key component to any sport? I get he's exceptional in the power tests and single-vector tests, but a more complete and "athletic freak" to me is someone who can change direction at that size.

 

I don't think it's where the conversation starts and stops with Metcalf as it's pretty silly to arm-chair judge the guy on this one characteristic - but it would be equally short-sighted to overlook this key component to his game, especially at the position of WR.

 

23 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Metcalf did exactly what I said and expected he would do at the combine.  He is a freak and a crazy exciting prospect.  That being said, he also did terrible in agility drills which does leave questions on how complete a WR he can be if he will struggle changing directions.

 

HOWEVER:  The WR that I think took over the top WR spot in the draft is NOT Metcalf, although I do believe Metcalf will still be drafted first based on a "Josh Allen" type ceiling with those freakish numbers.  

 

The guy who to me cemented the best overall WR prospect was my 2nd favorite WR heading into the combine, and that is N'Keal Harry.  The ONLY concern on Harry was his speed, and going into the combine he was expected to run high 4.6's to low 4.7's and most said that would be fine given his immense talent and still be a first or early 2nd round pick.

 

HOWEVER:  Harry blew away those expectations (as I had been saying he would) and ran a 4.54 which is faster than Antonio Brown and many other elite WR's in the NFL.  He by far has one of the most impressive tapes in this draft, insane hands, insane catch radius, strong, highly productive with a terrible QB, and now showed he has the speed too.  There is no longer any knock on him, its all gone.  

Agreed - I'm honestly more up on Harry and Butler than I am for Metcalf as a WR prospect. Barring a trade back scenario, I'm not sure there's a WR worth taking at 9 this year over a BPA of OL/DL. I'd much rather we get our line guy (preferably offensive but we'll see where the value falls as Burns, Oliver, or others may end up as BPA there), and then get either Harry or Butler in the second if they make it that far. Given a trade back scenario, I could easily see us picking up one or the other late in the first/early second and still managing to fill out OL/DL.

Edited March 4, 2019 by ctk232

[BillsMafia13]

23 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

Whose EMO ? 

Seriously, just went through all 11 pages and couldnt find a damn thing.  Feelin pretty dumb right about now

[billsfan_34]

58 minutes ago, NewEraBills said:

 

Near 32nd in the league in passing suggest to me that we do need to take another swing.  And to add, one of the worse rushing backfields, with the exception of the QB, to mean it says you need better OL, but you also need another threat to take the top off so defenses can't just sit on the run game.  We have a QB with an arm, we need perimeter WR's who can fly and make defenses pay.  Why do people not want this?  It will actually open up the run game too.

My philosophy is fix the lines first. We by far had the worst line in the NFL. 

[NewEraBills]

1 minute ago, billsfan_34 said:

My philosophy is fix the lines first. We by far had the worst line in the NFL. 

 

To me this is not an either or deal.  It's a both and deal.  We can address the line in FA and rounds 2-4 in the draft with really good starter level talent.

[Big Turk]

Dude reminds me of David Boston...does he want to become a bodybuilder or a football player?  Eventually he is going to lift himself into constant injuries on the footbal field and shorten his career.

[billsfan_34]

10 minutes ago, NewEraBills said:

 

To me this is not an either or deal.  It's a both and deal.  We can address the line in FA and rounds 2-4 in the draft with really good starter level talent.

Im with ya - the great news is we have alot of capital both in picks and cash! Now its which way they decide to skin the cat.

[BillsfanAZ]

The most important thing that us fans dont have access to is what was talked about in the player meetings. Is Metcalf just a workout warrior? Wonder what his football IQ is like. I think if the Bills have any options at trading back then that would be the move picking up extra picks in a deep draft for OL, WR, and TE. I think the only way the Bills use the #9 pick is if one of the top defensive studs slides down the board because of teams going after QB's. 

[Bill_with_it]

At 9 I wouldn’t mind, no Sammy Watkins trade up. He could be the guy they were trying to get out of KB (obviously minus the speed). 

[Reed83HOF]

2 hours ago, K-9 said:

Hopkins and Bryant didn’t run a 3 cone and both had the same time in the 20 yard shuttle with a 4.5

 

Woods’s 3 cone was a 7.15, a full .23 better, while his 20 yard shuttle was slightly better at 4.47. 

 

Cannot take an incomplete player like Metcalf at 9 with some really good elite talent will be there ripe for the picking on the lines, which is a helluva lot more important to us than a WR, with these holes. Even if we traded back a bit, I still wouldn't touch him in Rd#1...

 

John Miller, Groy and Mills will not be back and Bodine was awful last year. Also Kyle retired and McD loves a great DL rotation, especially with Shag and his option, Murphy is still an unknown - I just don't see a WR this high, maybe K'neal Harry, but I just don't see a WR in rd 1. An Elite DL or one of the Top OL guys is a certainty. 

[HeHateMe]

We just had an oft-injured WR in Watkins.  9 has to be a sure thing.  This is a deep class for WR and I think we can get really good talent in rounds 2-4.  

 

3 red flags right off the bat:

 

-Not a lot of production on college

-A lot of games missed due to injury

-Poor agility in tests

[NewEraBills]

I get it.  Guys are concerned about the bust rate and sure the WR bust rate in the 1st is high, but so are other positions.  When you are picking in the top 10 you are banking on UPSIDE to a degree and maximization of potential.  In rounds 2-3 it's mostly BPA and high functionality.  Upside is a plus in rounds 2-3.  

 

The Bills, that is US, NEED a WR so why not draft the one with the most upside and potential at 9 IF he's there.  Give him 5 years to work things out and see what happens.  His potential and upside is unmatched in this draft.  This is not to say that other areas on the team go unaddressed.  We can still address other areas via FA and the draft.  I still say if he is there at 9, which IMO he won't be, you take Metcalf.  I don't want mere functionality at WR.  That's Zay Jones.  We have that.  I want massive potential and upside.  That's DK Metcalf.

Edited March 4, 2019 by NewEraBills

[HeHateMe]

20 minutes ago, NewEraBills said:

I get it.  Guys are concerned about the bust rate and sure the WR bust rate in the 1st is high, but so are other positions.  When you are picking in the top 10 you are banking on UPSIDE to a degree and maximization of potential.  In rounds 2-3 it's mostly BPA and high functionality.  Upside is a plus in rounds 2-3.  

 

The Bills, that is US, NEED a WR so why not draft the one with the most upside and potential at 9 IF he's there.  Give him 5 years to work things out and see what happens.  His potential and upside is unmatched in this draft.  This is not to say that other areas on the team go unaddressed.  We can still address other areas via FA and the draft.  I still say if he is there at 9, which IMO he won't be, you take Metcalf.  I don't want mere functionality at WR.  That's Zay Jones.  We have that.  I want massive potential and upside.  That's DK Metcalf.

 

I don't think it's smart use of the 9th overall pick.. Reminds me of 2014 trading up for Watkins which was a huge mistake.  We could of stayed at our pick and got OBJ in the first round.  Or waited later in the draft to get wayyy better value picks in Cooks, Davante Adams, Allen Robinson, Jarvis Landry, etc.  This WR draft may look like that year.

 

[K-9]

46 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

Cannot take an incomplete player like Metcalf at 9 with some really good elite talent will be there ripe for the picking on the lines, which is a helluva lot more important to us than a WR, with these holes. Even if we traded back a bit, I still wouldn't touch him in Rd#1...

 

John Miller, Groy and Mills will not be back and Bodine was awful last year. Also Kyle retired and McD loves a great DL rotation, especially with Shag and his option, Murphy is still an unknown - I just don't see a WR this high, maybe K'neal Harry, but I just don't see a WR in rd 1. An Elite DL or one of the Top OL guys is a certainty. 

There are better prospects than Metcalf available at other critical positions. I think he’s a risk, especially that high in the draft.

[thebandit27]

32 minutes ago, NewEraBills said:

I get it.  Guys are concerned about the bust rate and sure the WR bust rate in the 1st is high, but so are other positions.  When you are picking in the top 10 you are banking on UPSIDE to a degree and maximization of potential.  In rounds 2-3 it's mostly BPA and high functionality.  Upside is a plus in rounds 2-3.  

 

The Bills, that is US, NEED a WR so why not draft the one with the most upside and potential at 9 IF he's there.  Give him 5 years to work things out and see what happens.  His potential and upside is unmatched in this draft.  This is not to say that other areas on the team go unaddressed.  We can still address other areas via FA and the draft.  I still say if he is there at 9, which IMO he won't be, you take Metcalf.  I don't want mere functionality at WR.  That's Zay Jones.  We have that.  I want massive potential and upside.  That's DK Metcalf.

 

For me, the best usage of a top-10 pick is on a franchise QB.  Obviously, that's not where Buffalo is going this year, and that's fine. The next best usage IMO is on a game-changing offensive playmaker, pass rusher, or corner. When I try to evaluate who has the best chance of being a game-changer in the NFL, I'm looking to optimize between a track-record of playing the position at a high level in college and the eye-popping measurables (and, of course, you want the intangibles as well).

 

So, when I look at the top-10 talent non-QBs in this class (listed, in no particular order, below), who checks the boxes?

Nick Bosa

Quinnen Williams

Josh Allen

DK Metcalf

Josh Jacobs

Ed Oliver

Christian Wilkins

Jawaan Taylor

Rashan Gary

Devin White

Jeffrey Simmons

TJ Hockenson

 

For me, the guys I think qualify as having both a track-record of playing the position at a high level in college and the eye-popping measurables, and can fill one of the critical roles of offensive playmaker, pass-rusher, or corner, are: Bosa, Williams, Allen, Jacobs, Oliver, Wilkins, and Simmons. I'm leery of guys that do incredibly stupid things off the field, so Simmons probably falls off my board. I'm also not huge on first-round RBs given the shelf-life, so Jacobs wouldn't be my guy either.

 

That leaves Bosa, Williams, Allen, Oliver, and Wilkins for me.  I thin there's probably an 80% chance that one of them is there at 9, so that's where I'd go at this point.