Trent Murphy Cap Hit

[CommonCents]

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

My bad, I read the wrong column.  

 

I suppose part of this is I just don't trust a Pats DE.  Jones was good, but aside from that, how many go on to play well?  Its such a scheme defense. Maybe I'm still jaded by Anderson?  

 

The key to not getting in salary cap hell is evaluating how much of an upgrade you get for your dollars.  Whatever we pay Flowers, which will be more than we pay Murphy, you will have to tack on the extra $5 million you paid to cut Murphy.  Does he get you enough additional value?  I have a hard time believing that.  But that is also because I think Murphy is a really good player when he is on the field.  I just don't think his injury problems with the Bills have been that bad.  Most if it has to do with the narrative that followed him.  If he gets hurt again this year, maybe.  Otherwise, I am just as comfortable sticking with him.  

Fair.  We just see it differently. Frazier just said that Murphy still isn’t 100 percent, some of this stuff goes back to TC. He has been on and off the field and I place no value on guys like that. If Murphy was healthy and playing at 100 percent for the majority of the season I don’t even think this would be a discussion. 

 

He hasn’t been able to stay on the field and when he has been on the field he has looked pretty mediocre. 

[Rc2catch]

29 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Players like Clay and Murphy just destroy a teams ability to improve and move forward. Mostly injured and way overpaid based on their production. I don't have the answer on what to do with these 2 based on the huge cap hit? But it sure would be nice to replace them both with promising healthy rookies. 

The solution has already been happening. You bring in youth or inexperienced players at that position and challenge them to win the job. If clay or Murphy lose their job oh well, but even while expensive at least they’re depth. You cut them and you risk having even worse depth. 

Lots of people thought Lawson was gone in preseason rather traded or cut, good thing he wasn’t as he’s been a good player this season. 

If we sign or draft defensive ends or tight ends it doesn’t mean you have to get rid of veterans with bigger contracts, you only do that when you need the cap space. They can stay on as depth/mentor type players who can still step in and play some when there’s injuries. 

I’m pretty confident beane will sign talent even if it’s a position we seem ok at and he can get value 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

13 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

Fair.  We just see it differently. Frazier just said that Murphy still isn’t 100 percent, some of this stuff goes back to TC. He has been on and off the field and I place no value on guys like that. If Murphy was healthy and playing at 100 percent for the majority of the season I don’t even think this would be a discussion. 

 

He hasn’t been able to stay on the field and when he has been on the field he has looked pretty mediocre. 

 

For what its worth, if we added Flowers, I would now feel pretty excited about it.  Before, I would have thought it was a bad idea. You made some good arguments. 

[John from Riverside]

I am Meh in either direction right now......if we can get better at the position we should do it.

[dollars 2 donuts]

Actually, I honestly believe that more than a year after an injury like his these guys normally get better.

 

I am fine in seeing what he can do for us next year.

[TheBeaneBandit]

2 minutes ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

Actually, I honestly believe that more than a year after an injury like his these guys normally get better.

 

I am fine in seeing what he can do for us next year.

Perfectly said

[dollars 2 donuts]

6 minutes ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

Perfectly said

 

Thanks, Beane.

 

Honestly, though, haven't we seen that?

 

I remember someone a while back saying that the first time they come back they sort of favor the knee and that it takes some playing time for them to get "the balance back".

 

EDIT: and also to really get the strength and stability back.

Edited December 4, 2018 by dollars 2 donuts

[TheBeaneBandit]

31 minutes ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

Thanks, Beane.

 

Honestly, though, haven't we seen that?

 

I remember someone a while back saying that the first time they come back they sort of favor the knee and that it takes some playing time for them to get "the balance back".

 

EDIT: and also to really get the strength and stability back.

Yes, very common with that injury

[JohnC]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

It is $3.5m dead cap to get out after this year, but it is $8.5m to stay tied in. I think it is a no brainer to cut him. His production isn't worth the extra $5m, he has actually been often times a 4th DE behind Hughes, Lawson and Lorax (who plays there generally on pass downs). Add to that we need to draft a young DE early in the 2019 draft - certainly in the first 3 rounds, because Lawson while a fine player isn't a big pressure guy and Hughes will be 31 when next season begins and Lorax will be 36. The wall could come quickly for them and if you are left then with Murphy and Lawson you are in trouble. Dump Murphy, save the cash and take advantage of this excellent class of edge rushers to find a guy you can plug in on your line for the next 10 years.

I doubt that McBeane are going to jettison Murphy. He fits their profile in the type of players he wants on their roster. The player they got is exactly the player they sought and signed last year. He has been plagued with injuries that has curtailed his production but as of late he has played to the level that he was expected to play at. 

 

Both Murphy and Lawson are similar in that neither is a dynamic pass rusher. Rotating them and sometimes moving Lawson or Murphy to the interior in pass rushing situations can add to their cost/benefit. If this team wants to add a more dynamic rusher to the mix then McBeane will have to do it with a high pick in this draft. 

 

Not every player is going to be in the elite category. Having solid players is not something to lament about; it is something to be happy about. 

[Mark80]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

It is $3.5m dead cap to get out after this year, but it is $8.5m to stay tied in. I think it is a no brainer to cut him. His production isn't worth the extra $5m, he has actually been often times a 4th DE behind Hughes, Lawson and Lorax (who plays there generally on pass downs). Add to that we need to draft a young DE early in the 2019 draft - certainly in the first 3 rounds, because Lawson while a fine player isn't a big pressure guy and Hughes will be 31 when next season begins and Lorax will be 36. The wall could come quickly for them and if you are left then with Murphy and Lawson you are in trouble. Dump Murphy, save the cash and take advantage of this excellent class of edge rushers to find a guy you can plug in on your line for the next 10 years.

 

When you have $90M in cap space and extra $5M doesn't mean anything.  He played great last game too and you got a glimpse of the impact he can have when healthy.  I just don't see how you are going to spend that extra $5M and make a better impact, so what's the point?

[Joeziehmer]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I doubt that McBeane are going to jettison Murphy. He fits their profile in the type of players he wants on their roster. The player they got is exactly the player they sought and signed last year. He has been plagued with injuries that has curtailed his production but as of late he has played to the level that he was expected to play at. 

 

Both Murphy and Lawson are similar in that neither is a dynamic pass rusher. Rotating them and sometimes moving Lawson or Murphy to the interior in pass rushing situations can add to their cost/benefit. If this team wants to add a more dynamic rusher to the mix then McBeane will have to do it with a high pick in this draft. 

 

Not every player is going to be in the elite category. Having solid players is not something to lament about; it is something to be happy about. 

The model is a slow and ineffective x-caller whose stunt assignments got cashed against the Dolphins?   

[BuffAlone]

3 minutes ago, Joeziehmer said:

The model is a slow and ineffective x-caller whose stunt assignments got cashed against the Dolphins?   

What in the world is this nonsense that keeps spewing from your lips? Must be coming from your ***** Lips I'm guessing

[Joeziehmer]

3 minutes ago, BuffAlone said:

What in the world is this nonsense that keeps spewing from your lips? Must be coming from your ***** Lips I'm guessing

Do you know assignments for gap coverage, shadow zone, not spy zone but shadow and shade coverage along with gap.  I’m guessing you talk well but never played.  Thanks for enlightening us on that perspective.  

[JohnC]

9 minutes ago, Joeziehmer said:

The model is a slow and ineffective x-caller whose stunt assignments got cashed against the Dolphins?   

When I learn gibberish I will be able to translate gibberish and respond to you. 

[Joeziehmer]

8 minutes ago, JohnC said:

When I learn gibberish I will be able to translate gibberish and respond to you. 

X-call is the linebacker signal call to his lineman being an end or tackle.  His gaps and calls got blown up and exposed against Miami.  

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, Joeziehmer said:

X-call is the linebacker signal call to his lineman being an end or tackle.  His gaps and calls got blown up and exposed against Miami.  

Now that you translated your original post I will respond that I still disagree with you. If they want to get a dynamic pass rusher then they should draft one because it is difficult to get that caliber of player from free agency or through a trade. When the Bills signed Murphy they knew exactly what type of player they were acquiring. And that's exactly what they got. 

[John from Riverside]

6 minutes ago, Joeziehmer said:

X-call is the linebacker signal call to his lineman being an end or tackle.  His gaps and calls got blown up and exposed against Miami.  

Like you even know the terminology they are using lol

 

Take a lap

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

Now that you translated your original post I will respond that I still disagree with you. If they want to get a dynamic pass rusher then they should draft one because it is difficult to get that caliber of player from free agency or through a trade. When the Bills signed Murphy they knew exactly what type of player they were acquiring. And that's exactly what they got. 

If Trent goes.....it is not because he cant play....he can...it is because he is unreliable due to the injuries and the dollars are not matching the production.

 

It wont be because he is not talented...he is

[DCOrange]

I'm not sure i understand the logic behind "We already have ____ cap space, why get more?"

 

The answer is pretty simple. You can save $5 million by cutting Murphy and then sign someone significantly cheaper that will likely produce more. The amount of cap space that Buffalo already has should not be a factor in the decision at all. You're not cutting Murphy because you need cap space; you're cutting Murphy because he's more expensive than alternative options and also likely inferior to those cheaper options. The same is likely true in the case of LeSean McCoy and Charles Clay as well. The Bills should cut them, not because they need to clear more cap space, but because they can replace them with better players at a better price point.

[Alphadawg7]

5 hours ago, Joeziehmer said:

What to do with Trent Murphy when all is said and done?  Still battling injuries, when healthy losing out to Shaq Lawson, and becoming rotational with bad knees.  I didn’t know we were looking for a compliment to Charles Clay on the other side of the ball.  Truthfully a great signing of sabermetrics and playing “money ball” shouldn’t we be developing younger and healthier players?  McBeane brought an end to a drought but lost a season and the locker room.  Next season cutting Murphy would be a hit of $7.5 Million it’s not like a league minimum.  So, do we keep bench warmers to avoid cap hits and hope they fit a rotation for at least a game?  

 

I see no reason to cut him, good depth and no need to take the cap hit.  Do you people who want to cut everyone realize how few people we have under contract next year?  We have a lot of positions to fill, we can’t cut everyone on top of that.

[TheBeane]

5 hours ago, Joeziehmer said:

What to do with Trent Murphy when all is said and done?  Still battling injuries, when healthy losing out to Shaq Lawson, and becoming rotational with bad knees.  I didn’t know we were looking for a compliment to Charles Clay on the other side of the ball.  Truthfully a great signing of sabermetrics and playing “money ball” shouldn’t we be developing younger and healthier players?  McBeane brought an end to a drought but lost a season and the locker room.  Next season cutting Murphy would be a hit of $7.5 Million it’s not like a league minimum.  So, do we keep bench warmers to avoid cap hits and hope they fit a rotation for at least a game?  

 

Does this post get the nomination for "worst post of the day"?

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, TheBeane said:

 

Does this post get the nomination for "worst post of the day"?

Until the OP's next post......yes

[blacklabel]

People need to start realizing that the players they bring in here aren't being brought in solely for their on-field work. McBeane are looking for the same kinds of players in free agency as they are in the draft: hard working, team-first guys, and Murphy embodies that. They'll take a chance on a player with top-end athletic talent and an average (or below average) work ethic (i.e. Corey Coleman) in the hopes that perhaps that player will see how hard other guys are working and adopt that ethic for themselves. Of course, it doesn't always work out (again, Corey Coleman) but I like that they aren't completely talking themselves out of taking a shot on players with tons of athleticism but maybe not the greatest work ethic. Because if you have a strong locker room full of hard working guys, that should rub off on guys who come in here who don't work as hard. But yeah, it's not all about numbers and whatnot. I think Murphy is a decent player and you can never have enough solid pass rushers. The guy is insanely motivated and driven to reach the success he had in 2016 and hopefully he'll get there. If not, well, they still have a player that has a handful of sacks and a couple of forced fumbles this season so it's not like they're paying him for zero production. Staying healthy is obviously the key for him.

[GunnerBill]

43 minutes ago, Mark80 said:

I just don't see how you are going to spend that extra $5M and make a better impact, so what's the point?

 

Whereas I do. That is a serviceable slot receiver. 

[noacls]

33 minutes ago, Joeziehmer said:

Do you know assignments for gap coverage, shadow zone, not spy zone but shadow and shade coverage along with gap.  I’m guessing you talk well but never played.  Thanks for enlightening us on that perspective.  

Neither do you. You have no clue what play was called or what his assignments were on that play. Nice try though and Madden 18 does not count.lol

[Mark80]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Whereas I do. That is a serviceable slot receiver. 

 

Right, but you are not already going to have plenty of money for that out of the $90?  Why do you need $95M of cap space is what I'm saying.

[ColoradoBills]

2 hours ago, Joeziehmer said:

And, he got gashed running stunts and x-calls oh his side defensively.  We are stuck for three years with Trent Murphy and could squeeze him down into a tackle spot to free up that gap and lane for a younger healthier body. 

 

LOL.  Your answer is to move a 6'6" 260lb OLB/DE to DT?

 

[billsfan89]

Murphy is one year removed from a very serious injury and while he has struggled with injury when he is able to get out on the field he looks like a good rotational pass rusher (Which you need in the modern NFL.) So I would bring him back in 2019 for one more year. By then he will be 2 years removed from an ACL injury and the cap saving are good but not great so you might as well keep him and not open up a hole on the roster. 

 

I wouldn't hate them moving on from Murphy but I think rather than take a modest amount of dead money you are better off keeping him for one more year then get rid of him in 2020 when his deal produces almost no dead money if were to still be over paid and underproductive. 

1 hour ago, DCOrange said:

I'm not sure i understand the logic behind "We already have ____ cap space, why get more?"

 

The answer is pretty simple. You can save $5 million by cutting Murphy and then sign someone significantly cheaper that will likely produce more. The amount of cap space that Buffalo already has should not be a factor in the decision at all. You're not cutting Murphy because you need cap space; you're cutting Murphy because he's more expensive than alternative options and also likely inferior to those cheaper options. The same is likely true in the case of LeSean McCoy and Charles Clay as well. The Bills should cut them, not because they need to clear more cap space, but because they can replace them with better players at a better price point.

 

I am not sure how much more a player for under 5 million AAV will produce more than Murphy. Murphy has 4 sacks with 4 games left to go and he hasn't played all that many games nor has he been taking a majority of the snaps either. If he finishes with 5+ sacks in limited rotation with limited games played that's a pretty productive season for a situational player behind Hughes, Lorax, and Shaq. 

 

I also think that Murphy stands a chance of being more productive in 2019 because he will be farther removed from an ACL injury and the Bills can manage his knee over the full course of the off-season. So I think the Bills are better off keeping him as I think finding a 5+ sack situational pass rusher will either cost more than 5 million AAV or require more bonus money and a commitment through 2020. 

[ColoradoBills]

Trent Murphy's contract has a 3.5 million dead money hit whether he is traded or cut early or late next year.

He will be going to camp and evaluated there.

[CaptnCoke11]

No reason to cut him.  He’s been playing well past couple games.  With Lawson’s cap hit only around 3 million its no problem keeping Murphy.  Gives us three nice DEs

Edited December 4, 2018 by CaptnCoke11

[John from Riverside]

Im on the fence....I dont want to cut him just for the sake of cutting him.   We have plenty of free agency money.

 

To me it is soley about whether he is going to be able to fight back through the injury bug.....production......

 

We have 90 million in cap space and so far 10 draft picks.....if Trent could get healthy then he is worth the money

[Misterbluesky]

6 hours ago, Rc2catch said:

What is the point in cutting Murphy? 

Do we need the cap savings? 

Does his salary next season prevent them from signing anyone? 

 

Read the post below again.

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

It is $3.5m dead cap to get out after this year, but it is $8.5m to stay tied in. I think it is a no brainer to cut him. His production isn't worth the extra $5m, he has actually been often times a 4th DE behind Hughes, Lawson and Lorax (who plays there generally on pass downs). Add to that we need to draft a young DE early in the 2019 draft - certainly in the first 3 rounds, because Lawson while a fine player isn't a big pressure guy and Hughes will be 31 when next season begins and Lorax will be 36. The wall could come quickly for them and if you are left then with Murphy and Lawson you are in trouble. Dump Murphy, save the cash and take advantage of this excellent class of edge rushers to find a guy you can plug in on your line for the next 10 years.

 

[DCOrange]

48 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

Murphy is one year removed from a very serious injury and while he has struggled with injury when he is able to get out on the field he looks like a good rotational pass rusher (Which you need in the modern NFL.) So I would bring him back in 2019 for one more year. By then he will be 2 years removed from an ACL injury and the cap saving are good but not great so you might as well keep him and not open up a hole on the roster. 

 

I wouldn't hate them moving on from Murphy but I think rather than take a modest amount of dead money you are better off keeping him for one more year then get rid of him in 2020 when his deal produces almost no dead money if were to still be over paid and underproductive. 

 

I am not sure how much more a player for under 5 million AAV will produce more than Murphy. Murphy has 4 sacks with 4 games left to go and he hasn't played all that many games nor has he been taking a majority of the snaps either. If he finishes with 5+ sacks in limited rotation with limited games played that's a pretty productive season for a situational player behind Hughes, Lorax, and Shaq. 

 

I also think that Murphy stands a chance of being more productive in 2019 because he will be farther removed from an ACL injury and the Bills can manage his knee over the full course of the off-season. So I think the Bills are better off keeping him as I think finding a 5+ sack situational pass rusher will either cost more than 5 million AAV or require more bonus money and a commitment through 2020. 

 

You don't need to use the savings on another pass-rusher. Buffalo has like 10 draft picks that can be used while spending that $5 million on another much-needed position.

Murphy currently rates as the 75th best edge defender out of 107 that qualify per PFF. There are 6 rookies rated ahead of him this season. If you insist on using the $5 million on another edge guy, just in the range from guys rated #50-75 (where Murphy is), there are 13 guys being paid less than $5 million, so we're probably talking about at least 20-30 of them in total.

[NewEra]

7 hours ago, Joeziehmer said:

When healthy he gets beat out by Shaq Lawson and has no impact whatsoever.  

You obviously haven’t watched any games in which he’s played. 

[Rc2catch]

1 hour ago, Misterbluesky said:

Read the post below again.

 

I did read it, but you’re creating a hole to fill right back in. What do they need the extra money for? 

Keeping him doesn’t stop them from signing any free agents or drafting anyone. 

It doesn’t hurt the team at all the keep him around even if it’s rotational depth. 

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, Mark80 said:

 

Right, but you are not already going to have plenty of money for that out of the $90?  Why do you need $95M of cap space is what I'm saying.

 

It isn't that question though. It is the question you posed earlier. Can I get better value and production from that $5m and for me the answer is definitely yes. 

[billsfan89]

3 hours ago, DCOrange said:

 

You don't need to use the savings on another pass-rusher. Buffalo has like 10 draft picks that can be used while spending that $5 million on another much-needed position.

Murphy currently rates as the 75th best edge defender out of 107 that qualify per PFF. There are 6 rookies rated ahead of him this season. If you insist on using the $5 million on another edge guy, just in the range from guys rated #50-75 (where Murphy is), there are 13 guys being paid less than $5 million, so we're probably talking about at least 20-30 of them in total.

 

That's a fair point, I would prefer to keep Murphy but I am not going to be that upset to see him go for a 5 million dollar cap savings. Although I think Murphy could be in line for major improvement in 2019 as he gets another year removed from injury. Sometimes it takes a player an additional season to fully recover from a major ACL injury. I think getting 5 ish sacks and solid run defense in limited snaps as a rotational player is pretty good for 5 million. But its possible to better use that money elsewhere. 

[BuffAlone]

6 hours ago, Joeziehmer said:

Do you know assignments for gap coverage, shadow zone, not spy zone but shadow and shade coverage along with gap.  I’m guessing you talk well but never played.  Thanks for enlightening us on that perspective.  

Aactually sir, I played my entirety of high school. CB/ WR. I'm aware of the logistics. Just not of your incoherent babble

5 hours ago, Joeziehmer said:

X-call is the linebacker signal call to his lineman being an end or tackle.  His gaps and calls got blown up and exposed against Miami.  

He played well. He didn't get exposed. He did what he was asked to do

[BuffAlone]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Whereas I do. That is a serviceable slot receiver. 

We have our serviceable slot receiver already. His name is Zay Jones. We are a top flight WR away from having a decent corp. That is dependant of course on whether or not Foster can become a solid second option on the outside, which I think he can, but Zay can do damage when/ if used properly. Imagine a Julio Jones type, Foster, and Zay working slot. With a gadget/ speedster type for a 4 wide set. Add a good TE and we're good imo.

I'll hang up and listen to your thoughts now?

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It isn't that question though. It is the question you posed earlier. Can I get better value and production from that $5m and for me the answer is definitely yes. 

Gunner, Stop with this campaign of ejection. You know very well that Murphy is going to be back next year. He will come back healthy and ready to be a solid contributor. McDermott likes to rotate his defensive linemen. He will be in the rotation. That might irk you but it doesn't the HC and GM who went out and got him. From a variety of standpoints this is a classic McDermott type of guy. 

[Joeziehmer]

41 minutes ago, BuffAlone said:

Aactually sir, I played my entirety of high school. CB/ WR. I'm aware of the logistics. Just not of your incoherent babble

He played well. He didn't get exposed. He did what he was asked to do

You weren’t a lineman so x-calls and stunts don’t really apply to you, right?  Just coverage zones, reads, and man assignments.  Not gap line assignments and shadow over line assignments or shade over an offensive line side.