Is Vander Eshe to Edmunds the same as Juju to Zay

[mannc]

1 minute ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

lol. He was definitely a reach at the time IIRC. If Bills wanted him as the Cowboys did, they probably would have stayed pat and been VERY surprised/disappointed after the Cowboys pick.

The point is, they probably should have wanted LVE.  They supposedly were looking for another Kuechly, and LVE is an absolute Kuechly clone.

[BringBackOrton]

23 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

For a guy who's profile says "offer more insight with less incite" you do a lot of inciting.  

 

Players and coaches always talk about "always getting better."  Thats coach talk.  The point is that you cannot have the #2 defense in the league if your starting MLB (who takes almost every snap aside from the game(s?) he missed) is not good.  I think that is a fair argument to make. 

Yes you can. Case in point, the 2018 Bills.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

I'll take zay as he has shown he's coming along and I'm very satisfied with the edmunds pick and his future here taking care of the middle of the field.

 

the reality is, we have jones and edmunds so frothing at the mouth for another rookie on another team is a waste of time.

Edited November 30, 2018 by DaBillsFanSince1973

[Bing Bong]

4 minutes ago, mannc said:

The point is, they probably should have wanted LVE.  They supposedly were looking for another Kuechly, and LVE is an absolute Kuechly clone.

I'm in the camp that wishes we had LVE as of right now. You're actually right.. he way more resembles Kuechly than Edmunds. But I never wanted to clone the 2015 Panthers like this regime does anyway (unless we get a real Kuechly.. every player's different anyway).

 

Same deal with Pat Mahomes.. We didn't get the player that I'd rather have but what are ya gonna do about it now? I'll just stick to appreciating their games in other unis and hoping our guys don't bust.

Edited November 30, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[oldmanfan]

12 minutes ago, BillsRdue said:

 

That's the key right there. From what you read. You needed to watch to evaluate. Vander is further ahead of Edmunds in his development right now. It's easy to see on the field. Vander doesn't get caught out of position much and his first step is more instinctive to the ball and not the fake. He sees the field a little better and follows through to make the tackle, then makes it.

Edmonds has more upside. He is faster and that helps with coverage. I think in a few years Edmonds will be a more complete sideline to sideline MLB. For this year and maybe next Vander will shine a little brighter.  If the full intent is to guarantee he has a second contract then I'd pick Edmonds. 

 

The same may hold true with Zay, but until he gets in a groove with Allen it's too hard to tell. Juju has had a few years with Ben working on timing and having the luxury of Brown drawing coverage.  He's a great #2.  Zay is now expected to be our #1 because comparing Brown to KB is like comparing a Ferrari to a broken down 1983 Ford Pinto.  

 

We need to see how things unfold next year before making a final judgement on the Zay/Juju pick

 

 

He may be farther along, but as you say Edmunds may be better long term.  We just have to get away from these instant analyses that have no real value.

[GunnerBill]

44 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Juju and Edmunds were both 20 years old to start their rookie seasons.

 

Zay is almost 2 years older than Juju..........and like Edmunds he was raised by a stud NFL father..............and yet they have been grossly outplayed by a WR 2 years his junior and a dude at LB who is in just his 4th season of playing 11 man football,  respectively.

 

Point is.........you are what you prove you are on the football field.

 

Edmunds could get better........or not..........his age doesn't necessarily have anything to do with his much slower career start than LVE.    

 

I never brought age into it.

 

My point was simply to differentiate between Jones vs JuJu where we picked the guy who was supposed to be better sooner and Edmunds where we knew there was a chance there were some growing pains. You know my view on Edmunds's performances this season, we have discussed it at length elsewhere. He needs to get better and it is in the most fundamental elements of the game that need the most work.

[Bing Bong]

11 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

He may be farther along, but as you say Edmunds may be better long term.  We just have to get away from these instant analyses that have no real value.

I mean.. instant analysis obviously has real value. In a league where there are no sure things, the better performing players out of the gate are the consistently better players anyway (let's talk strictly defenders). I think it's apparent JuJu is everything Zay is and more by this point, but as for Edmunds.. He's not too far behind LVE IMO so not a huge deal.. but we act like LVE has no room for improvement himself. The fact that they're both rookies is more important than age. They're both hitting the NFL at the same time and experiencing a gigantic leap in competition from what they've previously experienced and obviously excelled at.

 

Although Edmunds is so dang young he might not have even hit his physical prime yet. Plus he's played what.. 5 years of football in his life? Sort of a rare exception.

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I never brought age into it.

 

My point was simply to differentiate between Jones vs JuJu where we picked the guy who was supposed to be better sooner and Edmunds where we knew there was a chance there were some growing pains. You know my view on Edmunds's performances this season, we have discussed it at length elsewhere. He needs to get better and it is in the most fundamental elements of the game that need the most work.

he's overrated on this board. I hear comparisons to Kuechly and Urlacher all the time. Let's pump the breaks and take him at face value from what we've seen. A young player with some great early games, super frustrating Fournette tackling aversion Jags game.. a lot of room for improvement.

 

When he has an all-pro belt MAYBE I'll say he's the next [insert HOF LB]. But to say that now is ludicrous.

Edited November 30, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

I mean.. instant analysis obviously has real value. In a league where there are no sure things, the better performing players out of the gate are the consistently better players anyway (let's talk strictly defenders). I think it's apparent JuJu is everything Zay is and more by this point, but as for Edmunds.. He's not too far behind LVE IMO so not a huge deal.. but we act like LVE has no room for improvement himself. The fact that they're both rookies is more important than age. They're both hitting the NFL at the same time and experiencing a gigantic leap in competition from what they've previously experienced and obviously excelled at.

 

Although Edmunds is so dang young he might not have even hit his physical prime yet. Plus he's played what.. 5 years of football in his life? Sort of a rare exception.

I thing you are wrong.  You have two guys that have played about 3/4s of an NFL season.  To say that indicates anything about long term potential and who should or should not have been drafted is folly.  The world in general has no idea what the word patience means anymore.

regarding the WRs, it also takes time.  Are you old enough to remember Eric Moulds?

[Just Joshin']

3 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

You can skip this thread if you are above this discussion. 

 

LVE is throwing heat, just like Juju has been throwing heat since day 1.  

I am interested in why you think this is definable today.  If you are above answerinf, skip it.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[CommonCents]

53 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Can always count on BADOL for a "bills picked the wrong guy" take.

 

It's like death and taxes.

 

He's not referring to HIMSELF with that ditty. He's referring to anyone who responds to him.

 

Why make it about another poster? It’s about the team. What about all the other posters saying it’s okay that’s Edmunds isn’t good because he is 20 y/o? As if that logic makes any sense. So it’s a good thing we traded up for a younger player because he MIGHT get better. Ahhhh. Take a few years off his rookie deal while he “develops” and heads toward his payday, meanwhile LVE is looking like an All Pro out there. 

 

LVE was playing both ways in High School on some funny farm 9 on 9 team or something like that. He probably has played much less organized football than Edmunds. He also MIGHT get even better and he is a heck of a lot better than Edmunds right now. 

 

The only good about the Edmunds pick is that it shows Beane and company are atleast profiling the right types of modern day LBers. OBD has made major improvements since Whaley’s departure but they can still do better. Edmunds/Milano, it could be a lot worse but LVE/Edmunds does look to be another example of stop trading up.

[C.Biscuit97]

7 minutes ago, BillsRdue said:

 

That's the key right there. From what you read. You needed to watch to evaluate. Vander is further ahead of Edmunds in his development right now. It's easy to see on the field. Vander doesn't get caught out of position much and his first step is more instinctive to the ball and not the fake. He sees the field a little better and follows through to make the tackle, then makes it.

Edmonds has more upside. He is faster and that helps with coverage. I think in a few years Edmonds will be a more complete sideline to sideline MLB. For this year and maybe next Vander will shine a little brighter.  If the full intent is to guarantee he has a second contract then I'd pick Edmonds. 

 

The same may hold true with Zay, but until he gets in a groove with Allen it's too hard to tell. Juju has had a few years with Ben working on timing and having the luxury of Brown drawing coverage.  He's a great #2.  Zay is now expected to be our #1 because comparing Brown to KB is like comparing a Ferrari to a broken down 1983 Ford Pinto.  

 

We need to see how things unfold next year before making a final judgement on the Zay/Juju pick

 

 

The JuJu/ Zay thing is terrible. JuJu is a top 10 receiver in the nfl.

 

to be completely fair, receiver is such a dependent position. However, I was a huge JuJu fan in college and knew he’d be a stud wherever.  But it’s like the Sammy trade up.  He was about as good of a receiver as I’ve seen in college.  If Sammy was picked by a different team with better Qbs and ObJ ended in Buffalo, perhaps their careers are completely different.  But that is just another reason not to trade up for dependent positions. I’d argue that linebacker is a dependent position. However if you find an elite one, they are super valuable.  We need Edmunds to be elite.

 

[formerlyofCtown]

9 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

This man is fantastic, looks like the real deal.  

 

The Saints dynamic running game wanted no parts of Vander Eshe 

 

Another unnecessary trade up from Beane ? 

Vander Eshe plays OLB.  He is a Tackling machine for sure.

Edmonds has to command the defense at MLB which is a harder position to play.  Statistically he has one more TFL, a sack, 4 more QB hits, 2 forced fumbles, One more pass defensed and hes faster and only 20.

Edmonds is better in passing situations while Vander Eshe is better against the run.

I would still take Edmonds over Vander Eshe.

 

Not saying VE is bad against the pass as he has 7 PDs and 2 Ints.  But doesnt seem to be a pass rush threat.

Edited November 30, 2018 by formerlyofCtown

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

56 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Yes you can. Case in point, the 2018 Bills.

 

Solid argumentation.  Your contribution really makes this board a better place. 

[CookieG]

54 minutes ago, BillsRdue said:

 

That's the key right there. From what you read. You needed to watch to evaluate. Vander is further ahead of Edmunds in his development right now. It's easy to see on the field. Vander doesn't get caught out of position much and his first step is more instinctive to the ball and not the fake. He sees the field a little better and follows through to make the tackle, then makes it.

Edmonds has more upside. He is faster and that helps with coverage. I think in a few years Edmonds will be a more complete sideline to sideline MLB. For this year and maybe next Vander will shine a little brighter.  If the full intent is to guarantee he has a second contract then I'd pick Edmonds. 

 

 

 

 

If he's faster, it isn't by much. At the combine, Edmunds ran a 4.5 as compared to LVE's 4.6

 

That was one of the things that was the buzz of the combine, how well he was testing.

 

40" vertical

10' broad jump.

4.0 shuttle

sub 7 second cone drill

 

Those numbers are very good for any LB and are outstanding for an 6'5" 250+lb linebacker. The only thing that hurt him, if it did, was the rumor that several teams failed him medically. The rumor was denied.

 

I think both have tremendous upside, LVE just might be getting to his quicker.

 

 

 

[Rico]

4 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

I prefer Edmunds.  If we had both Allen and Vander Doodle we'd be over the Aw Shucks salary cap and we'd have to dump one of them anyway.

Yep. I am so, SO glad that Howdy Doody Esch is not on this team.

[Mark Vader]

2 hours ago, No Place To Hyde said:

LVE and Jaylon Smith are an incredible young LB duo. Much like I see Milano and Edmunds being going forward. Difference is you will hear a LOT more about LVE and JS because they play for Dallas. 

 

It does, however get a bit frustrating in my opinion that Buffalo always seems to draft the guy that "needs time" and isn't an instant gratification. 

Ummm.....Tre'Davious White?

[John from Riverside]

Edmunds still very young....despite that is the signal caller of the defense

He has all of the attributes that you look for in a McD defense.....

Players mature at different rates

 

Why must we look at every elses shiny toys at every opportunity.....if you think there are not fans of teams out there and are not envious of our defensive players (including edmunds) you would be mistaken.

1 minute ago, Mark Vader said:

Ummm.....Tre'Davious White?

Taron Johnson?

[BringBackOrton]

10 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Solid argumentation.  Your contribution really makes this board a better place. 

Pointing out your terrible logic is a stronger contribution than your terrible logic.

[FeelingOnYouboty]

I liked LVE more than Edmunds and I was surprised he was Beane's choice but this is being harsh. 

[Mark Vader]

9 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Taron Johnson?

Definitely.

 

An unexpected surprise for sure. Although he did have a good East-West game, and hew was a smaller school player to watch for.

 

I just wonder if Taron Johnson will ever be a real starting corner in this league or is he a permanent nickel back?

[John from Riverside]

Just now, Mark Vader said:

Definitely.

 

An unexpected surprise for sure. Although he did have a good East-West game, and hew was a smaller school player to watch for.

 

I just wonder if Taron Johnson will ever be a real starting corner in this league or is he a permanent nickel back?

Nickle is very important in today's NFL.....and to our defense in particular

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Mark Vader said:

Definitely.

 

An unexpected surprise for sure. Although he did have a good East-West game, and hew was a smaller school player to watch for.

 

I just wonder if Taron Johnson will ever be a real starting corner in this league or is he a permanent nickel back?

 

He's essentially a starter given how much the Bills play Nickel.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

9 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Pointing out your terrible logic is a stronger contribution than your terrible logic.

 

Could be, but then again you didn't actually point out how the logic was terrible...so really you've made no contribution.  

[John from Riverside]

Does one of these players play OLB and one of them play MLB?

 

Or am I not correct on this

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Could be, but then again you didn't actually point out how the logic was terrible...so really you've made no contribution.  

Your argument was, “Edmunds can’t be bad because our defense is #2 and you can’t have a #2 defense with a bad LB.”

 

Horrific logic with zero analysis.

 

Which I demonstrated with:

 

”You can have the #2 defense with a LB who hasn’t been good, look at the Bills.”

 

In the biz, we call that “mocking.” Now, maybe you didn’t like that one enough, I have more.

 

”You can’t have a #2 defense with a bad starting CB, so Phillip Gaines must be good!”

 

See?

[Augie]

2 hours ago, blacklabel said:

These hindsight posts are getting ridiculous. Just because another player in the same draft had a good game doesn't mean the player your team picked is all of a sudden unworthy of the draft slot he was selected in. Vander Esch made a few flash plays last night. Edmunds has had his own share of big plays as well. Edmunds is still also only 20 years old and handling a ton of responsibilities on defense already. He's only gonna get better. He has the higher ceiling and more athletic talent. Both guys are probably going to be good, solid players for the next 10 years in this league.

 

AMEN! When I look at last years draft, then see people tell the Bills what they could have done better, it makes me wonder. I mean, was that draft not good enough? There is ALWAYS something you could do better, but it’s pointless to rehash every pick with perfect hindsight. 

 

Having said all that, we’ve put a lot of chips in for Josh and Edmunds. I feel pretty confident about Edmunds, and if someone did a little bit better, then hats off to them. I won’t spend any time worrying about it. If we knew Josh was a sure thing, I’d be so happy I’d let the Cowboys chose whichever LB they want! 

[Mark Vader]

5 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Nickle is very important in today's NFL.....and to our defense in particular

 

4 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

He's essentially a starter given how much the Bills play Nickel.

I think that we are grateful that Taron Johnson is going to be remembered more for his play than for getting hit in the head by a football during his gauntlet run at  the combine.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

Your argument was, “Edmunds can’t be bad because our defense is #2 and you can’t have a #2 defense with a bad LB.”

 

Horrific logic with zero analysis.

 

Which I demonstrated with:

 

”You can have the #2 defense with a LB who hasn’t been good, look at the Bills.”

 

In the biz, we call that “mocking.” Now, maybe you didn’t like that one enough, I have more.

 

”You can’t have a #2 defense with a bad starting CB, so Phillip Gaines must be good!”

 

See?

 

Oh...you don't know what a premise is.  That might explain that.  I mean, that must be the case, otherwise you would understand why comparing my statement to one about the #2 corner back is asinine.  

 

After all, you can't scheme around a hole in the interior of the defense...whereas you can with a corner back.  

[Alphadawg7]

Why can’t they both be great?  And I hate this 20/20 stuff.  Both were highly regarded, but no way to know on draft night how they will play in NFL.  You go get the guy you feel best fits your plans.  Maybin once upon a time was highly regarded going into the draft and a 1000 other busts were too.  Just like the Brady’s of the world went in the 6th round.  

 

You cant fault Beane for getting his guy just becuse a later pick also is playing well.  Even more so since Edmunds is so young and has a ton of his own potential. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Alphadawg7

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Oh...you don't know what a premise is.  That might explain that.  I mean, that must be the case, otherwise you would understand why comparing my statement to one about the #2 corner back is asinine.  

 

After all, you can't scheme around a hole in the interior of the defense...whereas you can with a corner back.  

Sure you can. You put a big fat tub of goo like Star out there to control blockers and make it easier for the LB’s to not get swallowed up and have less holes to fill. 

 

No one said Edmunds is a hole. They just said he hasn’t been good. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said:

Sure you can. You put a big fat tub of goo like Star out there to control blockers and make it easier for the LB’s to not get swallowed up and have less holes to fill. 

 

No one said Edmunds is a hole. They just said he hasn’t been good. 

 

Star? The guy who has played less than 50% of the snaps this year?  Our DTs have been good, but nothing to write home about.  

 

 

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Star? The guy who has played less than 50% of the snaps this year?  Our DTs have been good, but nothing to write home about.  

 

 

Yeah Star plays on running downs, you know, downs where gap control and getting by blockers matters?

[John from Riverside]

8 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Star? The guy who has played less than 50% of the snaps this year?  Our DTs have been good, but nothing to write home about.  

 

 

They are doing their job on a good defense......what more do you want?

[WhickedWilliams]

5 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

The Juju miss was worse ?

 

Im trying to give Zay all the slack but I’m gonna need one monster game from him eventually.    Juju is at it every other week 

 

 

Yih are comoring a seasoned vet Ned vet hall of qb tossing to him and a first year rookie Allen....

[Jpsredemption]

There was no need to trade up and burn a critical pick on Edmunds. 

[D521646]

Anyone mention that LVE also has the benefit of Sean Lee on the sidelines which is invaluable, IMO.  Who does TE have?

 

Also, I see Zay taking a bit longer to develop for sure, but he has shown flashes of what could be.

 

 

Tim-

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, Jpsredemption said:

There was no need to trade up and burn a critical pick on Edmunds. 

I disagree

[Bing Bong]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

I thing you are wrong.  You have two guys that have played about 3/4s of an NFL season.  To say that indicates anything about long term potential and who should or should not have been drafted is folly.  The world in general has no idea what the word patience means anymore.

regarding the WRs, it also takes time.  Are you old enough to remember Eric Moulds?

Yeah I mean I loved Moulds at his prime but was drafted ahead of and behind Keyshawn Johnson, Marvin Harrison, Terrelle Owens (actually probably the best WR draft ever). All of whom were just as good WRs in their own right and produced early.. regardless Moulds or Muhsin Muhammad are the exception. My point is there's not many WRs who go for 250 yards years 1 and 2 and then have Mould's career.

 

But WRs can take more time than others. I wanted to talk DEFENSE. Simply probability wise there's more good careers that have started out well (because they're good) than took time (because most 2 yr of low snap counts aren't good). Obviously you shouldn't give up on a high drafted player within 3-4 years because there are plenty that pan out well eventually. But you can certainly count someone's chance of succeeding diminishing every low year of low production.

 

But Edmunds isn't playing poorly and is marginally below Esch IMO anyway. By year's end one might widen the gap.. and probability wise.. if Esch keeps his Saints performance up and say gets DROY.. then he's very likely to be good (unless he's Merriman juicing) vs a guy we think will be Urlacher. We saw Darby and Tre kick *** rookie year and we knew they were going to be good players. If they look shaky.. then we're hoping they are going to be good players.

 

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

Yeah I mean I loved Moulds at his prime but was drafted ahead of and behind Keyshawn Johnson, Marvin Harrison, Terrelle Owens (actually probably the best WR draft ever). All of whom were just as good WRs in their own right and produced early.. regardless Moulds or Muhsin Muhammad are the exception. My point is there's not many WRs who go for 250 yards years 1 and 2 and then have Mould's career.

 

But WRs can take more time than others. I wanted to talk DEFENSE. Simply probability wise there's more good careers that have started out well (because they're good) than took time (because most 2 yr of low snap counts aren't good). Obviously you shouldn't give up on a high drafted player within 3-4 years because there are plenty that pan out well eventually. But you can certainly count someone's chance of succeeding diminishing every low year of low production.

 

But Edmunds isn't playing poorly and is marginally below Esch IMO anyway. By year's end one might widen the gap.. and probability wise.. if Esch keeps his Saints performance up and say gets DROY.. then he's very likely to be good (unless he's Merriman juicing) vs a guy we think will be Urlacher. We saw Darby and Tre kick *** rookie year and we knew they were going to be good players. If they look shaky.. then we're hoping they are going to be good players.

 

You don't think Edmunds looks shaky, do you?  He just needs to learn to read his keys more, and that takes a bit of time.