If Zay pans out, McD's first two drafts are awesome

[dubs]

Here’s another one....

 

mahomes was ranked 6th best QB here on April 18, 2017. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2017/04/2017-nfl-draft-quarterback-rankings-scouting-reports-mitchell-trubisky-deshaun-watson-patrick-mahomes-deshone-kizer/amp

[The_Dude]

1 hour ago, dubs said:

 

Disagree. He wasn’t generational at the time. In fact many observers thought the chiefs paid a steep price for a guy who was viewed as physically gifted but raw. Many people praised the Bills for the move down. 

 

The bottom line is that the FO was in flux and you can’t ask a brand new head coach with a lame duck GM and their lame duck college scouting to take a QB at 10. If they were picking at 1 and Andrew Luck or Peyton Manning we’re there, maybe you’d be correct. But not the situation in 2017. 

 

So if there is blame I’d put it on ownership who hired a coach first with a dead man walking GM and waited until after the draft to bring in the new GM. 

 

And just for good measure, here’s and article from April 2017 which gives a more balanced view of the kind of prospect Mahomes was in absence of 20/20 hindsight. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/nfl/2017/4/17/15326962/2017-nfl-draft-quarterback-patrick-mahomes-stock-rising-texans-cardinals

 

I stated he was a generational talent. Numerous times. All anybody had to do was watch the kid. Generational. Far superior to Andrew Luck. 

[dubs]

2 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

I stated he was a generational talent. Numerous times. All anybody had to do was watch the kid. Generational. Far superior to Andrew Luck. 

 

Thats your retort???  Jeez, at least try man. 

 

You’re either being incredibly stubborn or intellectually dishonest. Or.....you are jeffismagic....  ? 

[KD in CA]

Yes, but I can't wait for them to all get shown the door after Beane/McD are fired and replaced with two new guys who want to rebuild the team their own way. 

 

Then we'll finally be on the road to success!!

[Mr. WEO]

5 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

If Allen pans out the drafts were awesome.  If he doesn't they're not looking so hot.

 

 

Exactly.   

 

When starting a lot of rookies, it's usually because you have no better players on the roster.

[The_Dude]

1 hour ago, dubs said:

 

Thats your retort???  Jeez, at least try man. 

 

You’re either being incredibly stubborn or intellectually dishonest. Or.....you are jeffismagic....  ? 

 

Or I’m telling you what I wrote when he was coming out. I knew it was obvious how good Mahomes was. McDermott didn’t. That’s concerning to me. Keep your head in the sand, guy. 

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

Mahomes was the 10th pick. Should all 9 GMs that passed him up be fired too?

 

 

Our GM wasn't even hired yet when Mahomes was drafted. Let's fire him for a move he wasn't here to make.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

6 hours ago, Soda Popinski said:

It will be very interesting to see what they do with 10 picks, and 80 mil in cap space. 

 

 

....I'd bet McBeane already has a plan to defer some of that 80 to 2020 (think he can do it) and knows who the UFA's will be...just a thought............

[Trogdor]

4 hours ago, Formerly Allan in MD said:

If the Bills are smart, they'll draft a tackle high (or sign a top free agent) and move Dawkins to RT.  When a team is rebuilding, every third game can be a blowout.  It's called patience.

We're they rebuilding last year? McD might be a good coordinator, but as a head coach we still have similar problems from when Rex was here. Completely agree on Dawkins though. He and Glenn together would've been great.

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, The_Dude said:

 

No, I’m not using hindsight. We had an awful QB situation, we had a generational talent fall to us, and the man that thought Nate Peterman is NFL caliber passed on Mahomes for an extra first and a cover 2 CB. That’s stupid. That’s a stupid move. It’s fair to criticize.  

Are you drinking over this yet?   I feel like this has really affected you and am worried.

[GreggTX]

Whaley's guys did all the player ratings and he should be given the credit for T Wite, D Dawkins, Z Jones and M Milano. McDermott may have had good input, but DW owned that draft.

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

We're they rebuilding last year? McD might be a good coordinator, but as a head coach we still have similar problems from when Rex was here. Completely agree on Dawkins though. He and Glenn together would've been great.

We were rebiulding last year.....you didnt see the high priced players getting jettisoned for draft picks?

2 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

Whaley's guys did all the player ratings and he should be given the credit for T Wite, D Dawkins, Z Jones and M Milano. McDermott may have had good input, but DW owned that draft.

I believe there was some scuttle about Carolina liking at least TWO of the guys we drafted....(Dawkins, Zay) and we swooped in ahead and took them......

 

 

[JohnC]

11 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Our GM wasn't even hired yet when Mahomes was drafted. Let's fire him for a move he wasn't here to make.

The organization should have consulted with JeffisMagic. The moral of the story is that zealots can be stupendously right.  Or another take away is that Andy Reid knows qbs.  

[The_Dude]

13 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Are you drinking over this yet?   I feel like this has really affected you and am worried.

 

I’m pissed about it. Yes. 

 

Draft generational QB or trade back for a cover 2 CB? McDermott committed the Billsiest move in Bills history. 

[John from Riverside]

Just now, The_Dude said:

 

I’m pissed about it. Yes. 

 

Draft generational QB or trade back for a cover 2 CB? McDermott committed the Billsiest move in Bills history. 

I know we are never going to agree on this

 

You keep downplaying Tre White.....who is frankly one of the very best cover corners in the NFL.....we COULD have drafted a guy that busts at that pick.....the team has certainly done enough of that in the past or finding guys that dont play up to their 1st round draft selection.

 

Then you conveniently leave out the 1st round pick which turned into Josh Allen.....

 

Then you keep saing generational QB.....in that QBs first starting year.   There have been plenty of QBs that started hot and flamed out....I am not saying Mahommes is going to do that or that I even want to do that because KC deserves some good fortune as well

 

What I am saying is if Josh Allen turns into our franchise QB.....then we did not lose this trade....for some damn reason your automatically calling it a loss right here right now which is extremely short sighted.

 

Have another drink on me

[Success]

3 hours ago, dubs said:

 

Disagree. He wasn’t generational at the time. In fact many observers thought the chiefs paid a steep price for a guy who was viewed as physically gifted but raw. Many people praised the Bills for the move down. 

 

The bottom line is that the FO was in flux and you can’t ask a brand new head coach with a lame duck GM and their lame duck college scouting to take a QB at 10. If they were picking at 1 and Andrew Luck or Peyton Manning we’re there, maybe you’d be correct. But not the situation in 2017. 

 

So if there is blame I’d put it on ownership who hired a coach first with a dead man walking GM and waited until after the draft to bring in the new GM. 

 

And just for good measure, here’s and article from April 2017 which gives a more balanced view of the kind of prospect Mahomes was in absence of 20/20 hindsight. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/nfl/2017/4/17/15326962/2017-nfl-draft-quarterback-patrick-mahomes-stock-rising-texans-cardinals

I feel like thinking Mahomes was going to be who he is compares to people in the ‘60’s generation saying they were at Woodstock.

 

Very few had Mahomes as a real option for the Bills that draft.  Most would have lost it if we picked him in the first.

[PlayoffsPlease]

At some point all of the brilliant drafting, FA signings, coach hirings, culture building and processes has to translate into playoff wins. Otherwise it didn't work.  The level of patience for "some point" is the main diving line among fans. 

[Fixxxer]

can't spot offensive talent, just can't...

[The_Dude]

41 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I know we are never going to agree on this

 

You keep downplaying Tre White.....who is frankly one of the very best cover corners in the NFL.....we COULD have drafted a guy that busts at that pick.....the team has certainly done enough of that in the past or finding guys that dont play up to their 1st round draft selection.

 

Then you conveniently leave out the 1st round pick which turned into Josh Allen.....

 

Then you keep saing generational QB.....in that QBs first starting year.   There have been plenty of QBs that started hot and flamed out....I am not saying Mahommes is going to do that or that I even want to do that because KC deserves some good fortune as well

 

What I am saying is if Josh Allen turns into our franchise QB.....then we did not lose this trade....for some damn reason your automatically calling it a loss right here right now which is extremely short sighted.

 

Have another drink on me

 

I like Tre even though I call him “Not Mahomes.”

 

Also, it concerns me that McDermott felt Allen was worth the 7th overall pick and Mahomes wasn’t worth the 10th. That’s very concerning. And if available evidence is to be investigated, McDermott has no clue what he’s doing at QB or how to evaluate them. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

I’ve not read all 4 pages. 

 

I’ve seen one or two of the Mahomes comments 

 

How bad was he trashed for Nate?

 

ok. Serious now.  McDermott and Bean have done well these past 2 seasons 

[Success]

29 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

I like Tre even though I call him “Not Mahomes.”

 

Also, it concerns me that McDermott felt Allen was worth the 7th overall pick and Mahomes wasn’t worth the 10th. That’s very concerning. And if available evidence is to be investigated, McDermott has no clue what he’s doing at QB or how to evaluate them. 

Allen was #1 on some boards.  Mahomes NEVER was.

 

[The_Dude]

2 minutes ago, Success said:

Allen was #1 on some boards.  Mahomes NEVER was.

 

 

Why? Cause the talking heads on ESPN told ya so?

[Success]

10 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

Why? Cause the talking heads on ESPN told ya so?

Um, no.  Because Allen was #1 in some boards and Mahomes never was.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Success

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Exactly.   

 

When starting a lot of rookies, it's usually because you have no better players on the roster.

 

 

I remember when people briefly thought Trent Edwards was the next Tom Brady and the only question was whether the Marshawn Lynch/Paul Poz/Edwards draft was great or best ever!

 

When you have to play young players sometimes you make the mistake of grading on a curve..........the league is littered with guys like recently released Brown/Bill Nate Orchard who by necessity got more PT than they warranted as a rookie then couldn't ascend.     Brandon Spoon baby!

 

I loved the Allen pick and am far from giving up on him....... but so far.......he's been pretty terrible.

 

Edmunds........clearly a lot of talent........but he's been very suspect as a MLB.........he's been clearly the worst/most picked upon player on the defense most games and he gets a pass because of his age.........kind've a BS excuse given that he started a ton of games at VA Tech over 3 years.  

 

[dubs]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

I know we are never going to agree on this

 

You keep downplaying Tre White.....who is frankly one of the very best cover corners in the NFL.....we COULD have drafted a guy that busts at that pick.....the team has certainly done enough of that in the past or finding guys that dont play up to their 1st round draft selection.

 

Then you conveniently leave out the 1st round pick which turned into Josh Allen.....

 

Then you keep saing generational QB.....in that QBs first starting year.   There have been plenty of QBs that started hot and flamed out....I am not saying Mahommes is going to do that or that I even want to do that because KC deserves some good fortune as well

 

What I am saying is if Josh Allen turns into our franchise QB.....then we did not lose this trade....for some damn reason your automatically calling it a loss right here right now which is extremely short sighted.

 

Have another drink on me

 

You can’t rationalize with Jeffismagic. And you can’t come back from “Generational Talent”. 

[The_Dude]

34 minutes ago, Success said:

Um, no.  Because Allen was #1 in some boards and Mahomes never was.

 

That’s phenomenal. I’m glad we’ve got a guy on the board who has access to all 32 teams boards. Terrific. 

[dubs]

1 hour ago, The_Dude said:

 

I like Tre even though I call him “Not Mahomes.”

 

Also, it concerns me that McDermott felt Allen was worth the 7th overall pick and Mahomes wasn’t worth the 10th. That’s very concerning. And if available evidence is to be investigated, McDermott has no clue what he’s doing at QB or how to evaluate them. 

 

How is Neverneverland?  

[Monty98]

1 hour ago, The_Dude said:

 

I like Tre even though I call him “Not Mahomes.”

 

Also, it concerns me that McDermott felt Allen was worth the 7th overall pick and Mahomes wasn’t worth the 10th. That’s very concerning. And if available evidence is to be investigated, McDermott has no clue what he’s doing at QB or how to evaluate them. 

 

Maybe it was looked at is Mahomes worth the extra first or not at this moment. I'll gladly take the extra first. I wasn't sold on Mahomes last year, not everyone was as he dropped to our pick. So did Watson, in the end Buffalo passed for an extra first plus Tre White, that extra first was converted into one of either Allen or Edmunds. If/when Allen pans out or looks good in the second season, will you be less upset with Tre and Allen?

16 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I remember when people briefly thought Trent Edwards was the next Tom Brady and the only question was whether the Marshawn Lynch/Paul Poz/Edwards draft was great or best ever!

 

When you have to play young players sometimes you make the mistake of grading on a curve..........the league is littered with guys like recently released Brown/Bill Nate Orchard who by necessity got more PT than they warranted as a rookie then couldn't ascend.     Brandon Spoon baby!

 

I loved the Allen pick and am far from giving up on him....... but so far.......he's been pretty terrible.

 

Edmunds........clearly a lot of talent........but he's been very suspect as a MLB.........he's been clearly the worst/most picked upon player on the defense most games and he gets a pass because of his age.........kind've a BS excuse given that he started a ton of games at VA Tech over 3 years.  

 

 

As a 21 year old he's not even fully developed physically. There's a huge difference there between a fully grown man as a football player and a 21 year old still growing. The excitement is because he's raw and physically talented at 21 but has a ceiling that's crazy, maybe it's rough now but as he continues to grow it can be scary. Look at Amobi Okoye he was drafted crazy young too, as a young guy he was physically over matched, but later in his career he was a solid DT and played well.

[Success]

9 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

That’s phenomenal. I’m glad we’ve got a guy on the board who has access to all 32 teams boards. Terrific. 

I’m glad we have the one guy who had Mahomes as a “generational talent.”

 

[The_Dude]

13 minutes ago, Success said:

I’m glad we have the one guy who had Mahomes as a “generational talent.”

 

 

Yeah. I was quite vocal about it on this board and some other Bills board that I got banned from from for something or another. But I said he was generational pre draft. 

[BADOLBILZ]

10 minutes ago, Monty98 said:

 

As a 21 year old he's not even fully developed physically. There's a huge difference there between a fully grown man as a football player and a 21 year old still growing. The excitement is because he's raw and physically talented at 21 but has a ceiling that's crazy, maybe it's rough now but as he continues to grow it can be scary. Look at Amobi Okoye he was drafted crazy young too, as a young guy he was physically over matched, but later in his career he was a solid DT and played well.

 

Amobi Okoye is a prime example of what I am talking about wrt to assuming very young players will just naturally get better thereby meaning it's safe to grade them on an age related curve.

 

The high point of Amobi Okoye's career was his 20 year old rookie season where he had 5.5 sacks.

 

He was out of the league at 25.

 

One of the Bills numerous problems during the drought was continually drafting very young 20 year old players like Lynch, Whitner, Dareus and Watkins and putting them on a rudderless team and expecting them to figure it out.    The Bills have stronger leadership now so Edmunds is in better hands but all of those previous guys didn't last very long in Buffalo.

[The_Dude]

23 minutes ago, dubs said:

 

How is Neverneverland?  

 

Idk, man...better than sports in Buffalo I’m sure. 

[Success]

4 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

Yeah. I was quite vocal about it on this board and some other Bills board that I got banned from from for something or another. But I said he was generational pre draft. 

sure.

[LSHMEAB]

1 hour ago, Success said:

Allen was #1 on some boards.  Mahomes NEVER was.

 

What's your point?

 

Mahomes is better than Allen. Why can't we all just accept that and hope Allen becomes a solid QB?

9 hours ago, Soda Popinski said:

Thats true.   Maybe bringing in someone to help evaluate QBs would be the right move I don't know.    I see the foundation they have laid here and i just don't want it blown up because they missed on the QB position.    

We should consult with Jalen Ramsey next time we draft a QB.

7 hours ago, Formerly Allan in MD said:

Teller's one start makes him a keeper?

Teller was out there mauling people. I can't think of an offensive lineman having that kind of performance and ending up a dud.

 

I think he's legit, although it's obviously not set in stone or backed up by enough data.

[Bing Bong]

Great drafts. Crazy worried about Allen so peg me as cautiously optimistic I guess. Do we like Harry? I wasn't a fan some games but he's had some plays. He's a rookie after all. 

 

That Milano guy is something though. Him alone in the 5th makes these last 2 drafts great. He might be catching up to Hyde as my fave

Edited November 14, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[LSHMEAB]

9 hours ago, Augie said:

 

Based upon what we’ve seen so far, I hope this would be how the Bills handle it. IF Allen doesn’t pan out, I’d give these guys at least one more shot at finding the right guy. 

 

 

Even under the best circumstances, picking a QB is a crap shoot. 

 

I think you'd have to factor in the other draft picks when deciding whether or not you give them another shot at a QB if Allen sucks.

 

Edmunds would need to develop into a star MLB and Jones would have to be a quality number 2. If those things happen and they hit on a first round receiver in 19, you'd have to consider giving them a mulligan.

1 minute ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

Great drafts. Crazy worried about Allen so peg me as cautiously optimistic I guess. Do we like Harry? I wasn't a fan some games but he's had some plays. He's a rookie after all. 

 

That Milano guy is something though. Him alone in the 5th makes these last 2 drafts great. He might be catching up to Hyde as my fave

Harry is overrated IMO. I haven't seen him do much. I think so many people viewed him as a "Kyle clone" that their confirmation bias influences their assessment. I'm not impressed. Picking up Jordan Phillips looks like a great decision.

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I think you'd have to factor in the other draft picks when deciding whether or not you give them another shot at a QB if Allen sucks.

 

Edmunds would need to develop into a star MLB and Jones would have to be a quality number 2. If those things happen and they hit on a first round receiver in 19, you'd have to consider giving them a mulligan.

 

I was heavy on the “Based upon what we’ve seen so far”.  If it all goes to hell, I change my position, but based on what we’ve seen, I’m very encouraged. 

[billsfan89]

9 hours ago, K-GunJimKelly12 said:

I find it very doubtful he'll ever be a legit number 1 but I think he is a legit #2 right now.  He dropped a lot of passes last year but he ain't anymore.  He gets open a lot and he has been very consistent for as bad as the offense has been around him.  I was hugely down on Zay when the season started and thought he was likely a bust but I was wrong.  Stick him in a good offense where there is a true number one on the other side and he will look great. 

 

Zay is slowly proving he is worthy of a WR3 or WR2 spot. But the jury is still out as to how high his impact will be. I think the team still needs two receivers either high in the draft or via higher end free agency. But I do think that Zay should at least enter into the season as the WR3 unless he completely disappears the rest of the way in which case I would have him occupy the WR4 spot and make him compete for a top 3 WR spot. 

[LSHMEAB]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

I was heavy on the “Based upon what we’ve seen so far”.  If it all goes to hell, I change my position, but based on what we’ve seen, I’m very encouraged. 

That's where I'm at. They've had some solid drafts and McDermott won close games last season. Some would call it luck, but I don't buy it. His teams made plays when they mattered in contested games. When is the last time the Bills won close games? Even this season, the most contested game was Tennessee and they found a way to win. Peterman did his thing against Houston, so chalk that one up to their inability to judge QB's, which is a very big deal.

 

They would have to improve significantly in terms of running the ball and acquiring offensive personnel, but the returns on that are awful thus far. 

 

Keep in mind I'm convinced Allen is a bust so that tends to influence my opinions. It's an interesting proposition because I see it as an inevitable decision Pegula will have to make.

[billsfan89]

10 hours ago, Da webster guy said:

I know there are varying degrees of involvement by coach McD with each of the picks in the past two drafts, but now that Zay has somehow emerged as a good receiver our last two years we have

TreD

Zay

Dawk

Milano

 

Last year

Josh

Tremaine

Harry

Taron

Teller

 

Obviously Josh is the wildcard here, but currently this is 9 starters in two years through the draft.   Almost half of the 22 man starting team in two years, all under rookie deals.   I don't have time to look it up, but that's likely tops in the league, nine starters who are either rooks or sophomores.  There's a little Whaley influence, and Beane obviously, but if McD has been significantly involved in these past two drafts like they say he has, it's a very encouraging sign that we have a knack for identifying and developing the right kind of players here.

 

 

 

 

The 2017 draft is already a very good draft class regardless of how Zay pans out. White is a top 5 player at a critical position while Milano is already a borderline pro-bowl player, Dawkins is a high end player at a critical offensive position. Zay being a bust would prevent it from being a great draft class but if Zay panned out even as just a good slot receiver that class is a great draft class. 

 

The early returns on 2018 are good but mixed. Edumonds, Phillips and Johnson are 3 good young players on the defense all of whom look like they could be high end starters or even pro-bowl players on the defense. Teller could be a starting guard on the offense which would be another solid addition. Obviously you are right about Allen he is a big wildcard. 

 

But if (and this is a big IF) you in two drafts get two players on the offensive line, a good receiver, your franchise QB, two starting linebackers, a starting DT, and two corners that's building quite the foundation of your team. That's literally 4 starters on offense and 5 starters on defense in two drafts. That's the type of drafting that starts dynasties. Once again still a long way to go on a lot of these players and your most important piece is still a huge question mark. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by billsfan89