The Organizational Incompetence of the Buffalo Bills

[CamboBill]

8 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Hardly.  They got a 5th for a guy who will never be a starter, is barely more of a veteran than Allen, and who the Bills would be spinning their wheels with by playing.

 

I think you are missing the point.  McCarron was nothing special, but he was cheap insurance as an absorber of snaps so that we did not have to throw Allen to the wolves before he ... and the talent around him were ready.

 

Instead the FO went on their ""Ïn Peterman we trust""  mindset and it predictably went about as well as last years experiment.  

 

Meanwhile we gave away a good candidate to absorb snaps for pennies on the dollar .... one that we had just given 4 million dollars to in guaranteed money to.

 

THAT is incompetent.

 

Even the historically hapless Cleveland Browns have learned that you play a developmental (Hopefuly franchise) QB --- when he is READY to play and has a supporting cast around him that can at least grow with him --- not because of fan pressure or desperation (not having alternatives)

 

You know things are bad when you look incompetent in comparison to the browns.

7 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I don’t really know where to put his but is anyone else a little terrified that twice Sean McDermott thought Nathan Peterman was capable of starting an NFL game? 

 

That is just frightening and made all the worse by trading away the only non-rookie alternative to peterman.

7 hours ago, VW82 said:

Excellent post. This absolutely is organization incompetence at the highest level and with the biggest stakes given the player, the position, and the investment Bills made. It makes my blood boil that McD doesn't even have the integrity (or cajones) to actually answer questions let alone admit he F'd this up. Where's the accountability? How can you expect accountability from players when you dodge it with everyone else. 

 

Despite the initial round of Carolina retreads last year, I was pleasantly surprised by our new coach (and by extension our new GM). It looked like they had a plan to build a TEAM, not just a collection of talent. Although I didn't agree with the ridiculous use of draft capital or the actual picks, that plan still kind of made sense coming into camp. But this situation - having no playable QBs besides Allen, and then starting him WAY before he's ready - is almost fireable in my eyes. If it works out, it'll be through sheer dumb luck.    

 

We all tired of the Rex circus rather quickly, but now we have gone in an extreme opposite direction.  It seems their is no transparency in decision making anyplace in the organization.  Without any transparency there is no accountability.

 

Mumbled comments about "processes"and "reviewing tape" do little to help matters and come across as arrogant and contemptuous  of both fans and media.

 

When your team mails in a stinker like last week, more is needed.

[Doc]

57 minutes ago, CamboBill said:

I think you are missing the point.  McCarron was nothing special, but he was cheap insurance as an absorber of snaps so that we did not have to throw Allen to the wolves before he ... and the talent around him were ready.

 

Instead the FO went on their ""Ïn Peterman we trust""  mindset and it predictably went about as well as last years experiment.  

 

Meanwhile we gave away a good candidate to absorb snaps for pennies on the dollar .... one that we had just given 4 million dollars to in guaranteed money to.

 

THAT is incompetent.

 

Even the historically hapless Cleveland Browns have learned that you play a developmental (Hopefuly franchise) QB --- when he is READY to play and has a supporting cast around him that can at least grow with him --- not because of fan pressure or desperation (not having alternatives)

 

You know things are bad when you look incompetent in comparison to the browns.

 

I'm not missing any point.  Allen is the future at QB.  Get him playing time.  Peterman looked like he earned the starting job in pre-season so they gave him a chance.  He failed miserably.  Even if McCarron were here, I'd still turn to Allen because he's potentially a franchise QB whereas the other guys are not.  There is no need for someone to "absorb snaps" while getting the team nowhere in terms of wins or developing the high-pick QB.

[CamboBill]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

I'm not missing any point.  Allen is the future at QB.  Get him playing time.  Peterman looked like he earned the starting job in pre-season so they gave him a chance.  He failed miserably.  Even if McCarron were here, I'd still turn to Allen because he's potentially a franchise QB whereas the other guys are not.  There is no need for someone to "absorb snaps" while getting the team nowhere in terms of wins or developing the high-pick QB.

 

Well you certainly are missing my point. You do not force feed playing time to a young player that by most accounts is not ready yet. Even if he were ready he needs teammates who can block for him and catch for him.  The Bills OL and WR corps are a mess now.

 

Spotting Allen a few games here and there and  in situations where he might have a chance to succeed might be a good idea for his development.

 

Throwing him to the wolves like this simply we because the FO failed to plan properly and put their eggs in the Peterman basket is a recipe for disaster.

 

Look up the wrecked careers of 2QBs thrown to the wolves in similar circumstance:

 

Couch, Tim ... Cleveland Browns

Carr, David ... Houston Texans

 

[BullBuchanan]

On 9/10/2018 at 5:04 AM, CamboBill said:

Nope.  I have been more or less supportive of the new regime.  Trading away McCarron was pure idiocy and prove they have no clue as to creating a contingency plan so that you can spot start your QB prospect rather than just be forced to throw him to the wolves.

 

Utter incompetence.

McCarron was the worst QB on the roster.

[CamboBill]

Not as bad as Peterman --- and he was an experienced guy who can absorb snaps

[RocCityRoller]

On 9/10/2018 at 5:10 AM, CamboBill said:

I am more or less sold on Josh Allen.  He still has lots of work to do but I have seen enough to have confidence that in the right situation he should be a competent NFL quarterback with at least some chance of being special.

 

Note the emphasis on "right situation".  What does this mean?

 

1) Proper coaching and scheme to get the most out of the QB and develop his confidence.

2) Functionally competent offensive line

3) Receivers who can adapt and make plays for the rookie.

 

I am open to Daboll and willing to defer judgement. He does not have much to work with.  The OL and WR stable are total disasters and it is not hyperbole to say that. 

 

This is not a "right situation" it is a very wrong situation to throw a rookie potential franchise QB into.

 

Good organizations PLAN for these contingencies.  Early on I thought the Bills were showing signs of competent planning by bringing in a low cost short term solution to absorb snaps in AJ McCarron.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I am no big fan of AJ who obviously has his limitations, but between he and Peterman we had at least two guys who we thought could absorb enough snaps until the environment around Josh improved.

 

Instead we went el-CHEAPO and dealt AJ's contract away for a mid-round pick (we already have 9 or 10 picks next year).  We put our our entire faith and trust in .... drum roll ..... Nate Peterman ... who is like a deer lost in the headlights under pressure.  We do not even keep a 3rd QB on the roster.

 

This it utter organizational incompetence.  Who is responsible? The Pegulas wanting to move salary?  Beane and his fixation on another mid round pick?  McDermmot for his Bromance infatuation with Peterman?

 

I don't know.

 

All I know is we cannot keep throwing Peterman out there and are thus left having painted ourselves into a corner of more or less HAVING to start Allen. 

 

A 7th overall pick is an investment at QB that requires proper management and early on protection of both his physical well being as well as his confidence and mental development.  Instead we will watch him constantly have to run for his life and watching the occasional accurate pass bounce of his WR's beer belly.

 

Welcome to the world of ruined QB prospects ... Tim "Concussion" Couch and David ""Concussion" Carr.  It is too bad, I think Josh is a gamer but this league will run you down quickly when the people in charge of your career fail to adequately plan for contingencies.

 

I am sure that extra 4th rounder will make all the difference in the world as we wonder if a banged up and damaged Allen can recover next year after a year of abuse no rookie QB should endure.

 

The OL and WR corp probably are not fixable this year but at the very least --- GO GET A FUNCTIONAL VET QB WHO CAN ABSORB SNAPS THIS YEAR AND REDUCE THE DAMAGE ALLEN HAS TO TAKE!

 

Thank you for taking the heat.

 

You made exactly the eloquent and focused post I could not. Big thumbs up to you CamboBill.

 

This is not the situation you put the #7 overall pick at QB into. If you think QB play alone is to blame for last week, or even last year you may have a screw or two loose.

And last year's situation was palatable to what we have now.

 

Read Carr, David. It's the same thing all over again. By the time the Texans put a half decent OL and WR corps together he was near PTSD and damaged goods.

 

Yet the Bills refuse to learn from NFL history, and may very well repeat it with Allen.

 

As I stated before and will state again, the McNabb in Philly situation was the right way to bring along a raw rookie QB into a terrible offense. Terrible O-Line, terrible WR yet McNabb went 3-2 as a rookie starter.

 

Josh Allen can not be judged as a franchise QB alone this year. HE HAS TO SURVIVE THIS SEASON.

 

A QB can only do so much when the O-line is largely garbage and the WR's can't get separation or make tough catches. Peterman, who may have been an effective backup has already been ruined. So now throw out your #7 overall in the same situation?

 

Now let's ruin the next new QB in a Bills uniform.

 

This is all due to self inflicted dead cap space and bad roster decisions. LET ROOKIE CONTRACTS PLAY OUT WHEN YOUR TEAM SUCKS.

 

This is madness, doing the same things over and over and over again, but expecting different results.

 

I just hope Josh Allen's escapability allows him to absorb less damage than David Carr did.

 

If you are too young to know about David Carr look him up. He took 50+ sacks for an expansion Texans for one or two years and was ruined. This is exactly why old heads like me said, "hey wait, sit the kid for a bit, the OL and WR try to improve even though they are garbage on this team". Maybe by week 10 some trends emerge and you can send out your best OL and WRs without getting your rookie QB killed....

 

But no, we need to ruin the shiny new toy as soon as possible.

 

This is incompetence at it's worst. Deal away a ton of talent for a chance to draft a top 3-5 QB in a strong QB class then throw him to the wolves on a decimated team.

 

Brilliant team building.

 

If you want to see competent team building look at the Rams and Jets.

 

$&%^%) it - better than I wanted to say.

On 9/10/2018 at 7:33 AM, nucci said:

and many think a top pick next year fixes everything

 

We are praying for hope a la Bruce Smith type player. Maybe you are too young to remember. B Smith #1 Overall pick in 1985.

 

They didn't trade down, they took a difference maker who is the all time sack leader in the NFL, played in 5 AFC Championship Games, 4 Super Bowls, Bills Wall of Fame, and is also in the HOF.

 

You sound like a newb.

[RocCityRoller]

On 9/10/2018 at 9:10 AM, pocoboy said:

I won't say this is totally off-base, but the season is young. There is a ton of room for improvement out of many players. The fact it got to 40-0 so quickly is embarrassing for players, coaches, and fans alike. It's also quite likely that Baltimore is significantly better than we're used to seeing.

 

There are a lot of young guys who have an opportunity to work to get their chance to become leaders on this team. That being said, McDermott's staff has a delicate situation the next few weeks. Losing the locker room would stall development, as players would lose confidence in their ability to make a difference. They need a much more competent result vs. LA Chargers. Keep it close, harass Rivers, put up 20 points on offense, etc. Nobody wants moral victories over actual victories, but I think that you take what you can at this point just getting through this difficult opening stretch to the schedule.

 

This is one of the oldest rosters in the NFL.

 

That is a FACT.

[downunderbill]

I'm going to reserve judgement until I see what they do with the 10 draft picks and 80ish million next offseason.

Starting over 50 million in the hole is going be tough for any team.

[nucci]

2 hours ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

Thank you for taking the heat.

 

You made exactly the eloquent and focused post I could not. Big thumbs up to you CamboBill.

 

This is not the situation you put the #7 overall pick at QB into. If you think QB play alone is to blame for last week, or even last year you may have a screw or two loose.

And last year's situation was palatable to what we have now.

 

Read Carr, David. It's the same thing all over again. By the time the Texans put a half decent OL and WR corps together he was near PTSD and damaged goods.

 

Yet the Bills refuse to learn from NFL history, and may very well repeat it with Allen.

 

As I stated before and will state again, the McNabb in Philly situation was the right way to bring along a raw rookie QB into a terrible offense. Terrible O-Line, terrible WR yet McNabb went 3-2 as a rookie starter.

 

Josh Allen can not be judged as a franchise QB alone this year. HE HAS TO SURVIVE THIS SEASON.

 

A QB can only do so much when the O-line is largely garbage and the WR's can't get separation or make tough catches. Peterman, who may have been an effective backup has already been ruined. So now throw out your #7 overall in the same situation?

 

Now let's ruin the next new QB in a Bills uniform.

 

This is all due to self inflicted dead cap space and bad roster decisions. LET ROOKIE CONTRACTS PLAY OUT WHEN YOUR TEAM SUCKS.

 

This is madness, doing the same things over and over and over again, but expecting different results.

 

I just hope Josh Allen's escapability allows him to absorb less damage than David Carr did.

 

If you are too young to know about David Carr look him up. He took 50+ sacks for an expansion Texans for one or two years and was ruined. This is exactly why old heads like me said, "hey wait, sit the kid for a bit, the OL and WR try to improve even though they are garbage on this team". Maybe by week 10 some trends emerge and you can send out your best OL and WRs without getting your rookie QB killed....

 

But no, we need to ruin the shiny new toy as soon as possible.

 

This is incompetence at it's worst. Deal away a ton of talent for a chance to draft a top 3-5 QB in a strong QB class then throw him to the wolves on a decimated team.

 

Brilliant team building.

 

If you want to see competent team building look at the Rams and Jets.

 

$&%^%) it - better than I wanted to say.

 

We are praying for hope a la Bruce Smith type player. Maybe you are too young to remember. B Smith #1 Overall pick in 1985.

 

They didn't trade down, they took a difference maker who is the all time sack leader in the NFL, played in 5 AFC Championship Games, 4 Super Bowls, Bills Wall of Fame, and is also in the HOF.

 

You sound like a newb.

went to my 1st Bills game in 1967....I know how things work

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

This is one of the oldest rosters in the NFL.

 

That is a FACT.

Right now.  But watch for guys like Shady and Kyle and Zo to retire or move on after this season.

2 hours ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

Thank you for taking the heat.

 

You made exactly the eloquent and focused post I could not. Big thumbs up to you CamboBill.

 

This is not the situation you put the #7 overall pick at QB into. If you think QB play alone is to blame for last week, or even last year you may have a screw or two loose.

And last year's situation was palatable to what we have now.

 

Read Carr, David. It's the same thing all over again. By the time the Texans put a half decent OL and WR corps together he was near PTSD and damaged goods.

 

Yet the Bills refuse to learn from NFL history, and may very well repeat it with Allen.

 

As I stated before and will state again, the McNabb in Philly situation was the right way to bring along a raw rookie QB into a terrible offense. Terrible O-Line, terrible WR yet McNabb went 3-2 as a rookie starter.

 

Josh Allen can not be judged as a franchise QB alone this year. HE HAS TO SURVIVE THIS SEASON.

 

A QB can only do so much when the O-line is largely garbage and the WR's can't get separation or make tough catches. Peterman, who may have been an effective backup has already been ruined. So now throw out your #7 overall in the same situation?

 

Now let's ruin the next new QB in a Bills uniform.

 

This is all due to self inflicted dead cap space and bad roster decisions. LET ROOKIE CONTRACTS PLAY OUT WHEN YOUR TEAM SUCKS.

 

This is madness, doing the same things over and over and over again, but expecting different results.

 

I just hope Josh Allen's escapability allows him to absorb less damage than David Carr did.

 

If you are too young to know about David Carr look him up. He took 50+ sacks for an expansion Texans for one or two years and was ruined. This is exactly why old heads like me said, "hey wait, sit the kid for a bit, the OL and WR try to improve even though they are garbage on this team". Maybe by week 10 some trends emerge and you can send out your best OL and WRs without getting your rookie QB killed....

 

But no, we need to ruin the shiny new toy as soon as possible.

 

This is incompetence at it's worst. Deal away a ton of talent for a chance to draft a top 3-5 QB in a strong QB class then throw him to the wolves on a decimated team.

 

Brilliant team building.

 

If you want to see competent team building look at the Rams and Jets.

 

$&%^%) it - better than I wanted to say.

 

We are praying for hope a la Bruce Smith type player. Maybe you are too young to remember. B Smith #1 Overall pick in 1985.

 

They didn't trade down, they took a difference maker who is the all time sack leader in the NFL, played in 5 AFC Championship Games, 4 Super Bowls, Bills Wall of Fame, and is also in the HOF.

 

You sound like a newb.

It may or may not he the Carr situation; that will be determined by the mental makeup of the player.  Allen seems pretty tough.  

Plus the two situations are somewhat dissimilar.  Houston was an expansion franchise.  It was going to take them a while to build in the trenches.  Buffalo got caught with an unexpected retirement and a perhaps slightly predictable losing of the mind of two good players.  They felt Groy could do the job at one and hopefully he gets his head out of his butt and starts playing the way he did a couple years ago.  The other one I hope a rookie comes in and starts soon.  Either way they have 10 picks and millions of cap dollars next year to address this, so Allen may have one year behind a suspect line vs. several that Carr had.

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

On 9/10/2018 at 5:10 AM, CamboBill said:

I am more or less sold on Josh Allen.  He still has lots of work to do but I have seen enough to have confidence that in the right situation he should be a competent NFL quarterback with at least some chance of being special.

 

Note the emphasis on "right situation".  What does this mean?

 

1) Proper coaching and scheme to get the most out of the QB and develop his confidence.

2) Functionally competent offensive line

3) Receivers who can adapt and make plays for the rookie.

 

I am open to Daboll and willing to defer judgement. He does not have much to work with.  The OL and WR stable are total disasters and it is not hyperbole to say that. 

 

This is not a "right situation" it is a very wrong situation to throw a rookie potential franchise QB into.

 

Good organizations PLAN for these contingencies.  Early on I thought the Bills were showing signs of competent planning by bringing in a low cost short term solution to absorb snaps in AJ McCarron.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I am no big fan of AJ who obviously has his limitations, but between he and Peterman we had at least two guys who we thought could absorb enough snaps until the environment around Josh improved.

 

Instead we went el-CHEAPO and dealt AJ's contract away for a mid-round pick (we already have 9 or 10 picks next year).  We put our our entire faith and trust in .... drum roll ..... Nate Peterman ... who is like a deer lost in the headlights under pressure.  We do not even keep a 3rd QB on the roster.

 

This it utter organizational incompetence.  Who is responsible? The Pegulas wanting to move salary?  Beane and his fixation on another mid round pick?  McDermmot for his Bromance infatuation with Peterman?

 

I don't know.

 

All I know is we cannot keep throwing Peterman out there and are thus left having painted ourselves into a corner of more or less HAVING to start Allen. 

 

A 7th overall pick is an investment at QB that requires proper management and early on protection of both his physical well being as well as his confidence and mental development.  Instead we will watch him constantly have to run for his life and watching the occasional accurate pass bounce of his WR's beer belly.

 

Welcome to the world of ruined QB prospects ... Tim "Concussion" Couch and David ""Concussion" Carr.  It is too bad, I think Josh is a gamer but this league will run you down quickly when the people in charge of your career fail to adequately plan for contingencies.

 

I am sure that extra 4th rounder will make all the difference in the world as we wonder if a banged up and damaged Allen can recover next year after a year of abuse no rookie QB should endure.

 

The OL and WR corp probably are not fixable this year but at the very least --- GO GET A FUNCTIONAL VET QB WHO CAN ABSORB SNAPS THIS YEAR AND REDUCE THE DAMAGE ALLEN HAS TO TAKE!

 

Wait, so it's utter incompetence to trade away a QB who was outplayed by Nate Peterman? Some team was actually dumb enough to give us draft capital for a guy who was beat out by a guy who had 0.0 passer rating last week. Who is this veteran savior you speak of? I don't like the fact of Allen taking punishment this season behind the OL but he gives us the best chance to win each week so it is what it is, this regime also didn't plan on Ritchie/Woods retiring, it's not like they cut those players. Those were 2 big holes  they weren't planning to fill just yet due to the cap situation.

[Doc]

8 hours ago, CamboBill said:

Well you certainly are missing my point. You do not force feed playing time to a young player that by most accounts is not ready yet. Even if he were ready he needs teammates who can block for him and catch for him.  The Bills OL and WR corps are a mess now.

 

Spotting Allen a few games here and there and  in situations where he might have a chance to succeed might be a good idea for his development.

 

Throwing him to the wolves like this simply we because the FO failed to plan properly and put their eggs in the Peterman basket is a recipe for disaster.

 

Look up the wrecked careers of 2QBs thrown to the wolves in similar circumstance:

 

Couch, Tim ... Cleveland Browns

Carr, David ... Houston Texans

 

I don't believe you ruin QB's by playing them "before they're ready," if there is such a thing as being ready to start the first time.  I think Couch and Carr would have failed no matter what their situation.  You either have it or you don't.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Doc

[CLTbills]

On 9/10/2018 at 6:57 AM, BuffaloBillsMagic1 said:

over 50 million in dead cap space says it all...... WRs says it all...OL says it all, special teams say it all.....DL says it all..Murphy, Lawson,. Lo=tuia..all pathetic and Kyle has slowed down and not a starter anymore.  We are old and need replacemnts galore on OL, DL, WRs, OLBs, and Clay, our prozed TE sucks.  Zay Jones is useless and Benjamin does not look like he even tries at times to catch the ball. Letting go of McCaron so no vet to mentor Josh other than Mr. August, Peterman is pitiful.....

Yeah, you know, because Lawson, Clay, and Zay are all here because our current FO brought them here.

 

And 50 million in dead cap space is due to shedding HORRIFIC Doug Whaley contracts. Beane has had exactly ONE draft up to this point, and not even two full offseasons. Back up off the ledge.....

[billsfan89]

On 9/10/2018 at 5:59 AM, dezertbill said:

Title of this thread is ridiculous.  This front office has made some great decisions. 

 

One area it seems Beane fell short is the OL.  They underestimated the loss of Richie, Woods, and Glenn.

 

Frustrating?  Yes.  Leading to total FO incompetence?  Not even close.

 

Back off the ledge.  It's week 1.  Lets see how the coaches, team, and FO rebound from this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The FO has made some good moves for sure but they have also made some puzzling ones that could end up being huge miscues. The Star contract is looking like a terrible move so far (Granted still too early to tell  but he was unimpressive in training camp and pre-season and lacked impact game 1, even at the time of the signing I thought the Bills overpaid) and not resigning EJ Gaines could also prove to be a costly negative move esp given what he eventually ended up signing for. 

 

So although the FO hasn't proven to be incompetent (not even close) they made more questionable moves than I would like to see (Every FO makes mistakes but the Bills are making more mistakes than other elite front offices.)

[billsfan89]

29 minutes ago, CLTbills said:

Yeah, you know, because Lawson, Clay, and Zay are all here because our current FO brought them here.

 

And 50 million in dead cap space is due to shedding HORRIFIC Doug Whaley contracts. Beane has had exactly ONE draft up to this point, and not even two full offseasons. Back up off the ledge.....

 

The Bills were committed to getting out from under a lot of contracts from the Whaley era. Beane was also committed to landing a QB mortgaging a lot of draft capital to acquire a QB so that has compromised the roster. 

 

2019 will be make or break for Beane in my opinion. There will be no more excuses for the cap or draft capital. The team will be set up to be built in the mold that they want. 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

The FO has made some good moves for sure but they have also made some puzzling ones that could end up being huge miscues. The Star contract is looking like a terrible move so far (Granted still too early to tell  but he was unimpressive in training camp and pre-season and lacked impact game 1, even at the time of the signing I thought the Bills overpaid) and not resigning EJ Gaines could also prove to be a costly negative move esp given what he eventually ended up signing for. 

 

So although the FO hasn't proven to be incompetent (not even close) they made more questionable moves than I would like to see (Every FO makes mistakes but the Bills are making more mistakes than other elite front offices.)

 

This and he was brought in to stop the run.  The Ravens averaged 3.4 YPC against the Ravens, which drops to 2.9 YPC if you remove Lamar Jackson's runs.

[billsfan89]

5 hours ago, Doc said:

 

This and he was brought in to stop the run.  The Ravens averaged 3.4 YPC against the Ravens, which drops to 2.9 YPC if you remove Lamar Jackson's runs.

 

That's a very fair point but Star has to be one of the best run stuffers in the league to justify that contract, Snacks Harrison grades out according to both the analytics and by the eyeball test as the best interior run defender in the league the past few seasons and Star is getting paid more than him the following two seasons. 

[Dr.Sack]

Someone tell me how Kaepernick wouldn’t be a great veteran to sign who like Allen was inaccurate sub .60 completions and had a strong enough arm to be drafted by the MLB due to him being able to throw 97 mph fastballs in high school. 

 

Both are atheltic and mobile with great ability to throw on the run. To me it’s time to cut Peterman and sign a competent veteran. At the very least take a shot at Derek Anderson. 

[Doc]

24 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

That's a very fair point but Star has to be one of the best run stuffers in the league to justify that contract, Snacks Harrison grades out according to both the analytics and by the eyeball test as the best interior run defender in the league the past few seasons and Star is getting paid more than him the following two seasons. 

 

Harrison got $9.25M/year 2 years ago.  Given the way salaries rise, $10M/year is about right.  But yes, he'll have to earn it.  Just pointing out that he did what he was brought in here to do against the Ravens and it's way too early to make any judgments.

[GreggTX]

It's called "rebuilding". New team president, GM, entire personnel dept, new coaching staff, roster turnover will be close to 100%. We aren't going anywhere this year. Be patient. This was necessary.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

....the whole shtick is pathetically laughable 'round these parts.....absolutely NO ONE knew this was to be a transitional year.......cap cleanup/jettison dead wood & malcontents/spending constraints are all "outta the blue" shockers.......why even TBD'ers forecasted 4-12, 5-11, 6-10 as well as a 3 "W's" thrown in for good measure....yet the Peace Bridge is loaded with jumpers, the Razor Club is offering free wrist slittings and season tix are being burned in effigy.....so the first game was a woeful stinker......to paraphrase....fire McBeane....fire Mc D....fire Daboll...fire the Rockpile Beerman (not sure what the hell HE did)....for starters....

 

.so all of the "forecasts" went by the wayside when the Bills chalked up their first (UGLY) loss towards the L"L" prognostications of 12, 11 10 or even 13.....a tad bi-polar I would say.....however, OTAG is a bit "perturbed" with the following observations:.....this club was woefully unprepared which starts right at the top with your HC.......secondly, Frazier, Daboll and Castillo were our proverbial "Moe, Larry & Curly" on the painful Sunday....ZERO answers or counter punches versus a formidable Ravens club....talent level is obviously questionable in this transition year, but you scheme to your personnel's strengths (save the "ain't got none crap) and at least show some semblance of a counter punch whether weak or not.....

 

do I question some personnel moves?...damn right.....gonna focus solely on QB spot.....Peterman had a good camp & pre-season, ALL with rubber bullets......so McCarron is instantly expendable......weak TC and pre-season?...of course....guy comes back post injury to play the 4th with obvious ring rust, but tepidly rebounds in the last quarter.....so McBeane dumps him for a coveted and HIGHLY desirable 5th.....pick or bottle?.....knowing the REALISTIC of the QB position, namely Peterman's performance with "live ammo" and Josh still learning, garnering a HIGHLY valuable 5th is the right move?....sure this gang will make gaffes as they move along but the misjudgment about being "set at QB" is inexcusable IMO........

Edited September 13, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[SoTier]

On 9/12/2018 at 1:58 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

I don’t really know where to put his but is anyone else a little terrified that twice Sean McDermott thought Nathan Peterman was capable of starting an NFL game? 

 

Absolutely.  IMO, he shouldn't have been on the roster in 2017, and shouldn't be on the roster this season.  At best he might become a backup QB, but that would be after he'd hung around the NFL for a few years on the practice squad.  He doesn't have a good enough arm to ever be a starter for an NFL team.  At present, he doesn't have the experience and knowledge to make him a realistic backup prospect, either.   He's played okay against other backups in preseason, but he's clearly not up to playing QB against first teamers when games count.  I'm completely mystified how an NFL HC can not see that and name him the starter -- twice.

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

19 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

McCarron was the worst QB on the roster.

He was at least functional, showed moxie in the final ps game and actually started and finished a playoff game a few years ago. Peterman cannot play in the league. 

[Bing Bong]

I'd literally have any GM in our drought history than Beane. Note just before he arrived we improved the secondary overnight. Note ever since he joined the Bills he's downgraded every position, lest we forget he thought Matthews would replace Watkins, and cut that dude for a Panthers team more that happy to dump his Butterfingers. Note that McDermott denied tanking and took our biggest strength at secondary (pre Beane) and made the playoffs with this Beaneless QB making do with NO WRs, along with several other Whaley's guys on offense Beane didn't have time to dump. Note that following that Beane had a full off-season to gut the offense such that every defender sat week 1 watching Peterman force them onto the field to the point they gave up.

 

McDermott's alright by me. He broke the drought. Remind me again what Beane's role on the roster was last year's playoff run? Mostly getting picks.

 

Beane simply didn't have enough time to gut the roster before our secondary led us to the end of the drought. He needed an offseason

[SoTier]

15 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

It may or may not he the Carr situation; that will be determined by the mental makeup of the player.  Allen seems pretty tough.  

Plus the two situations are somewhat dissimilar.  Houston was an expansion franchise.  It was going to take them a while to build in the trenches.  Buffalo got caught with an unexpected retirement and a perhaps slightly predictable losing of the mind of two good players.  They felt Groy could do the job at one and hopefully he gets his head out of his butt and starts playing the way he did a couple years ago.  The other one I hope a rookie comes in and starts soon.  Either way they have 10 picks and millions of cap dollars next year to address this, so Allen may have one year behind a suspect line vs. several that Carr had.

 

The Bills' talent level is expansion level, so how are they THAT dissimilar to an actual expansion team?.  

 

McDermott and Beane are the ones who need to get their heads out of their butts.  Groy was an UDFA who bounced around various teams' PS until the Bills signed him in 2015.  He was never good enough to challenge Wood in his tenure with the Bills.  That he's better than Russell Bodine doesn't imply that Groy is a starting caliber player but simply demonstrates just how poor a signing Bodine was.

[Fadingpain]

19 hours ago, CamboBill said:

Not as bad as Peterman --- and he was an experienced guy who can absorb snaps

Wait.  You're suggesting Peterman was worse than AJ?  

 

Peterman was 33 for 41, 431 yds, 80.5 completion %, 10.5 yards per pass, 3 TD, 1 INT, and a QB rating of 124.7.

 

AJ was 23 for 50, 284 yds, 46.0 completion %, 5.7 yards per pass, 3 TD, 2 INT, QB rating 67.4.  

 

What are you smoking and can you please mail me some?

 

 

 

 

[billsfan89]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Harrison got $9.25M/year 2 years ago.  Given the way salaries rise, $10M/year is about right.  But yes, he'll have to earn it.  Just pointing out that he did what he was brought in here to do against the Ravens and it's way too early to make any judgments.

 

Snacks when he got that contract was coming off of being a top run defender in the league for back to back seasons with the Jets, Star had not been as successful or highly rated in his previous seasons. I think that Star should have been in the 6-8 AAV range as opposed to 10. I think the FO overbid on a player based off of being familiar with him.

 

Now that's not to say that I don't think Star can't be productive and anchor the run defense, but rather that they overpaid for him and if his contract is a bust that's a huge negative on the FO. 

 

Where I am concerned with the front office is their pro-personnel evaluations. The 2017 draft looks to be a good draft (White, Dawkins, and Milano will look like hits and if Zay Jones could be productive the draft will go from good to great) and I like what they did in the 2018 draft (Although it will be heavily dependent on Allen panning out.) 

 

But if they can't improve their pro-personnel decision then they won't be able to supplement the roster with the free agents needed and all that cap space become a lot less useful. 

[Fred Clause]

On 9/10/2018 at 7:33 AM, nucci said:

and many think a top pick next year fixes everything

3 or 4 top picks certainly is a start

[billsredneck1]

On 9/12/2018 at 9:36 PM, CamboBill said:

That is just frightening and made all the worse by trading away the only non-rookie alternative to peterman.

.....which is compounded by the fact that we are one snap away from seeing nate again. i can't believe they didn't roll with 3 at least til the deadline.

[billsredneck1]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Absolutely.  IMO, he shouldn't have been on the roster in 2017, and shouldn't be on the roster this season.  At best he might become a backup QB, but that would be after he'd hung around the NFL for a few years on the practice squad.  He doesn't have a good enough arm to ever be a starter for an NFL team.  At present, he doesn't have the experience and knowledge to make him a realistic backup prospect, either.   He's played okay against other backups in preseason, but he's clearly not up to playing QB against first teamers when games count.  I'm completely mystified how an NFL HC can not see that and name him the starter -- twice.

 

 

well guess what? when ducasse gets pushed backwards and steps on josh's ankle,  nate will be named the starter thrice....we need to pray....and i still support nate. that ravens game had some seriously sucky weather. they couldn't even keep a damn camera lens clear an apparently didn't try to... it was like watching a game in the mid 70's.

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

The Bills' talent level is expansion level, so how are they THAT dissimilar to an actual expansion team?.  

 

McDermott and Beane are the ones who need to get their heads out of their butts.  Groy was an UDFA who bounced around various teams' PS until the Bills signed him in 2015.  He was never good enough to challenge Wood in his tenure with the Bills.  That he's better than Russell Bodine doesn't imply that Groy is a starting caliber player but simply demonstrates just how poor a signing Bodine was.

Groy played fine when Wood went down a couple years ago.  He needs to get back to that level.  Your memory is very selective.

[ColoradoBills]

3 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

Wait.  You're suggesting Peterman was worse than AJ?  

 

Peterman was 33 for 41, 431 yds, 80.5 completion %, 10.5 yards per pass, 3 TD, 1 INT, and a QB rating of 124.7.

 

AJ was 23 for 50, 284 yds, 46.0 completion %, 5.7 yards per pass, 3 TD, 2 INT, QB rating 67.4.  

 

What are you smoking and can you please mail me some?

 

 

 

 

 

How do their regular season game stats compare?  Peterman choked hard and that's all it is.

 

17 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Groy played fine when Wood went down a couple years ago.  He needs to get back to that level.  Your memory is very selective.

 

To me Groy is still an unknown.  He had 11 starts in 4 years.  His handful of Center starts was next to a seasoned pro bowler and his QB

could escape 2 D lineman in a phone booth.  The next handful of games will tell what he really is capable of.

[Doc Brown]

I never agreed with the build for now and the future.  You can't do both.  Beane should've just torn the building down before building it back up.  If you don't want to trade up for your QB in the draft, make sure we suck.  You get what you can out of McCoy (popular player but old for a running back) like they did with Watkins and Darby.  You don't give up a 3rd for Benjamin.  You don't resign Tyrod Taylor.  You don't have to give up Cordy Glenn.  Finishing where we did cost us two 2nd round pick and a 3rd round pick because we wouldn't of traded for Benjamin if we sucked.  All picks that could've been used to fill the massive holes we have at a lot of positions. Yes, ending the drought was nice, but long term it may not have been a good thing.  

Edited September 14, 2018 by Doc Brown

[Socal-805]

On 9/10/2018 at 5:13 AM, Keukasmallies said:

Wow, just a long line of excuses.  I'm afraid that neither the coaches nor the GM can see a way out of their dilemma at this point.  The remainder of the season will  be very interesting in terms of realignment of the organization's thinking.  Imagine the Pegula's thoughts this morning....

 

Maybe Kim can come in and do some GM magic and fix this thing!?!?!

 

4 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I never agreed with the build for now and the future.  You can't do both.  Beane should've just torn the building down before building it back up.  If you don't want to trade up for your QB in the draft, make sure we suck.  You get what you can out of McCoy (popular player but old for a running back) like they did with Watkins and Darby.  You don't give up a 3rd for Benjamin.  You don't resign Tyrod Taylor.  You don't have to give up Cordy Glenn.  Finishing where we did cost us two 2nd round pick and a 3rd round pick because we wouldn't of traded for Benjamin if we sucked.  All picks that could've been used to fill the massive holes we have at a lot of positions. Yes, ending the drought was nice, but long term it may not have been a good thing.  

 

+ 100 %

 

 

[SoTier]

6 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Groy played fine when Wood went down a couple years ago.  He needs to get back to that level.  Your memory is very selective.

 

FYI, how an OLer plays in games is influenced by how well or poorly the OLer(s) beside him play.  That's why teams can have decent/good OLs even when not all the OL personnel are particularly good.  Furthermore, like all football players, OLers are better at doing some things than others.  Between 2016 when Groy played 7 games for Pro Bowler Eric Wood and 2018 when he was named starting center, the Bills OL underwent a major transformation which significantly undermined its effectiveness, including a new OL coach, Juan Castillo, and a new blocking scheme that the OLers struggled to adjust to.

 

In 2016, Groy played between Pro Bowl LG Richie Incognito and promising rookie RG John Miller under OL coach Aaron Kromer who used a blocking scheme that suited the lineman the  Bills had.  In 2018, Groy is playing between career back RG Vlad Ducasse who was moved to LG and RG John MIller who struggled in OL coach, Juan Castillo's, blocking scheme last year.   Miller never really adjusted as he was benched early on and never challenged Ducasse for the starting position.   Groy played in 1 game in 2017 in Castillo's scheme, so there's no evidence that he adjusted to the new blocking scheme any better than Mtiller.  It's entirely possible that the only reason Groy and MIller are starting is because the dogs the Bills signed in FA are even worse.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by SoTier

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

6 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

I never agreed with the build for now and the future.  You can't do both.  Beane should've just torn the building down before building it back up.  If you don't want to trade up for your QB in the draft, make sure we suck.  You get what you can out of McCoy (popular player but old for a running back) like they did with Watkins and Darby.  You don't give up a 3rd for Benjamin.  You don't resign Tyrod Taylor.  You don't have to give up Cordy Glenn.  Finishing where we did cost us two 2nd round pick and a 3rd round pick because we wouldn't of traded for Benjamin if we sucked.  All picks that could've been used to fill the massive holes we have at a lot of positions. Yes, ending the drought was nice, but long term it may not have been a good thing.  

 

And that's why last year I was arguing for the tank to happen.

 

But NO. Was shouted down then.

 

[SoTier]

6 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

I never agreed with the build for now and the future.  You can't do both.  Beane should've just torn the building down before building it back up.  If you don't want to trade up for your QB in the draft, make sure we suck.  You get what you can out of McCoy (popular player but old for a running back) like they did with Watkins and Darby.  You don't give up a 3rd for Benjamin.  You don't resign Tyrod Taylor.  You don't have to give up Cordy Glenn.  Finishing where we did cost us two 2nd round pick and a 3rd round pick because we wouldn't of traded for Benjamin if we sucked.  All picks that could've been used to fill the massive holes we have at a lot of positions. Yes, ending the drought was nice, but long term it may not have been a good thing.  

 

Maybe the Bills should have thought ahead in 2017 and taken Mahomes or Watson rather than trading back.  When the opportunity to draft a franchise QB presents itself, a smart organization acts while an incompetent one trades back and takes a DB.

Edited September 14, 2018 by SoTier

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

3 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Maybe the Bills should have thought ahead in 2017 and taken Mahomes or Watson rather than trading back.  When the opportunity to draft a franchise QB presents itself, a smart organization acts while an incompetent one trades back and takes a DB.

 

Broken record is broken.

 

[WideRightRevenge]

On 9/12/2018 at 10:49 AM, CamboBill said:

Looks like Allen is starting ... ready or not .... because our management incompetently gave away our only other alternative.

 

Let the official derailing of this kids career begin.  No blockers.  No Receivers.  Few who really give a damn.

 

The good news is that Bosa looks to be out so the over under on how many times Allen gets sacked is down to 5. lol.

 

Yuck.

 

We can only hope and pray for the best --- that is what happens when management fails to create contingency plans.

 

Should be right at home .. given the talent of his Wyoming team .. we'll see what happens

[oldmanfan]

10 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

FYI, how an OLer plays in games is influenced by how well or poorly the OLer(s) beside him play.  That's why teams can have decent/good OLs even when not all the OL personnel are particularly good.  Furthermore, like all football players, OLers are better at doing some things than others.  Between 2016 when Groy played 7 games for Pro Bowler Eric Wood and 2018 when he was named starting center, the Bills OL underwent a major transformation which significantly undermined its effectiveness, including a new OL coach, Juan Castillo, and a new blocking scheme that the OLers struggled to adjust to.

 

In 2016, Groy played between Pro Bowl LG Richie Incognito and promising rookie RG John Miller under OL coach Aaron Kromer who used a blocking scheme that suited the lineman the  Bills had.  In 2018, Groy is playing between career back RG Vlad Ducasse who was moved to LG and RG John MIller who struggled in OL coach, Juan Castillo's, blocking scheme last year.   Miller never really adjusted as he was benched early on and never challenged Ducasse for the starting position.   Groy played in 1 game in 2017 in Castillo's scheme, so there's no evidence that he adjusted to the new blocking scheme any better than Mtiller.  It's entirely possible that the only reason Groy and MIller are starting is because the dogs the Bills signed in FA are even worse.

 

 

 

 

 

I think you have a point.  It would have been nice if Richie hadn't lost his mind in the offseason.  And Miller has regressed for whatever reason.

 

I think there are scheme issues, and if I'm Daboll and McD I'd be going crazy on Castillo right now.  But my impression is that it is mostly a physical thing.  I looked at last week, and also looked at the Bengals preseason game.  Here's Ducasse, he weights like 330.  Groy and Miller each go around 300-310.  They have simply been dominated physically.  I don't know how a 330 lb guard can literally just get shoved right back 5 yards as if he's a rag doll.  Groy and MIller routinely get blown up.  That's just terrible to me, and the reason why I'd be perfectly happy if they started Teller and Ike Sunday.  From preseason it looks like at least they wouldn't get blown up like that.